Guild Wars 2

So the QQ about thieves hard countering Mesmers has reached an all time high lately and the opinions of newbs and vets alike have been plastered along side. I’ve pointed out time and again that the real issue here lies in a couple of mental constructs with which all the tears trickle down from. In particular

• “IP Shatter is the only viable build for Mesmers for all time. For all time!” ~Kanya West.
  Which leads to the belief that
• “Mesmers writ large are hard countered by thieves. At best we can get lucky, but really we have to be honest that Mesmers are thus out of the Meta.”

We’ve been over the fallacy of these views in multiple threads across the forums for quite a while now. Still, the root of these weeds spreads freely and plants itself deep so that the same nonsense is repeated and perpetuated on a daily basis. That’s just life I suppose.

So I wanted to highlight an actual, tangible issue I think has gone overlooked. It will highlight why Thieves dominate, not Mesmers writ large, but IP Shatter Mesmers in particular, leaving rise to the nonsense that has followed.

The issue lays in both Thief and Mesmer class mechanics and build options. I’ll try to keep it real simple.

• Thieves, by design, excel at applying straight up, immediate pressure.
• Thieves, by design, also excel at undermining the application of straight up, immediate pressure. This is achieved by exceptional access to evades and, more importantly in case of IP Shatter, stealth.

• IP Shatter Mesmers excel at applying straight up, immediate pressure.
• IP Shatter Mesmers are limited at undermining the application of straight up, immediate pressure. The matter is exceptionally aggravated in a matchup vs the aforementioned Thief.

So nothing new or ground breaking here. We all already know this, just perhaps not in these particular terms. The next part is where things get interesting.

• Thieves are married to their straight up application of pressure. For them it’s like a ball and chain. They’re forced to carry it around with them wherever they go.

• Mesmers, properly built, can not only excel at pressure, but also counter pressure. This punishes, albeit counters thieves at their face.

The problem isn’t that Mesmers are hard countered by Thieves, it’s that IP Shatter Mesmer is hard countered by thieves. This is the only problem being faced and people need to realize that.

Consume Plasma.

kylwilson.9137:

Consume Plasma.

Lo.

Bloody consume plasma.

Shatter mesmer does perfectly fine against thieves.

The problem is most shatter mesmers insist on being chained to a particular weapon and utility setup (staff/GS with portal) and aren’t flexible about changing their build or play-style to match the opponent in a given match.

nomdeplums.5780:

Shatter mesmer does perfectly fine against thieves.

The problem is most shatter mesmers insist on being chained to a particular weapon and utility setup (staff/GS with portal) and aren’t flexible about changing their build or play-style to match the opponent in a given match.

For me, staff/GS gives the best result against SD thieves. And overall, I find it the best set against majority of other professions.

Well for me the only reason why Thief hard counter to Mes coz DE trait, Clone When Dodge. Other class when dodge Thief’s CND, Thief will lose their init and fail to stealth. While For Mes, Still lose their init but they can enter stealth coz of Clones. Thief can also use Mes clone to perma stealth and use it as their advantage. Just spam CnD can make Thief enemy become panic. DD Thief pretty much have better Damage but somewhat easier to predict coz they need CnD to stealth, While DP give lower damage coz no CnD damage but provide more Util and can go stealth on their own. Both are Power Based.

About Burst. Thief can land their best burst easier(For DD). With only around 3x Action, Steal/Mug(With Basilik Venom), CnD, Backstab. Thief can also use Steal while Casting CnD coz Steal is instant. So resulting the target will got Stunned by Basilik but u can only see the thief for 0,3-0,5s then come the Backstab. This DD combo will really pain coz those 3skills have nice dmg. While for DP, The damage only come from Backstab alone but they are harder to catch.

While for Mesmer burst. We need more “Time” and “Action” to get the best result of our burst. Example of Sword Mesmer Burst will need Sword #3, Dodge, Sword #3, Sword #2, F1. 5x Action to make that combo. Or for Long Range Shatter GS combo GS#2, GS#4, Dodge, F1. 4x Action but the damage output will be lower from Sword Mesmer Burst. Can faster the Mesmer burst using 2x clone utility that means take 1x util slot.

Thief has better damage when initiation phase/ begining of the fight compared Mesmer. Which is normal coz that’s Thief strong point. Ability to drop high burst in very short time. Mesmer also has nice burst. It just needs more time to make it. So Pretty much surviving initiation Phase when vs Thief is really important. If u can keep ur health 100% in initiation phase by dodging their Steal+ CnD + Backstab. It will be awesome.

ABout Interupt in Mesmer.. Somewhat i found it can counter Thief. Halting Strike damage is so good. Bad side of halting Strike is u will sacrifice ur Defensive utils for more offensive damage. Yes i am talking about OH Torch which is very famous for IP Shatter Mesmer based. I was using F1 Shatter damage +20% but now changed it into Halting Strike coz i have 2x Interupt in my Weapon set, GS and OH Pistol. In WVW Halting strike without Might if crit can hit for 4k average vs Hitter Role.

nomdeplums.5780:

Shatter mesmer does perfectly fine against thieves.

The problem is most shatter mesmers insist on being chained to a particular weapon and utility setup (staff/GS with portal) and aren’t flexible about changing their build or play-style to match the opponent in a given match.

“Shatter Mesmer” is to vague. It could include MAIM Shatter, which does perfectly fine against thieves (thanks to condi’s, or torment on scepter block (counter pressure application)).

We’re talking IP Shatter here, aka double ranged shatter, or GS sword/torch/pistol. The typical setup that makes this build viable (for all intents and purposes), and the so caled “meta” build. 4, 4, 0, 0, 6.

Ross Biddle.2367:

nomdeplums.5780:

Shatter mesmer does perfectly fine against thieves.

The problem is most shatter mesmers insist on being chained to a particular weapon and utility setup (staff/GS with portal) and aren’t flexible about changing their build or play-style to match the opponent in a given match.

“Shatter Mesmer” is to vague. It could include MAIM Shatter, which does perfectly fine against thieves (thanks to condi’s, or torment on scepter block (counter pressure application)).

We’re talking IP Shatter here, aka double ranged shatter, or GS sword/torch/pistol. The typical setup that makes this build viable (for all intents and purposes), and the so caled “meta” build. 4, 4, 0, 0, 6.

Lolz,it is not “vague” everyone knows when somone saying shatter mesmer,is for the IP one.The “Maim shatter” is just called condi shatter.

Sandrox.9524:

Ross Biddle.2367:

nomdeplums.5780:

Shatter mesmer does perfectly fine against thieves.

The problem is most shatter mesmers insist on being chained to a particular weapon and utility setup (staff/GS with portal) and aren’t flexible about changing their build or play-style to match the opponent in a given match.

“Shatter Mesmer” is to vague. It could include MAIM Shatter, which does perfectly fine against thieves (thanks to condi’s, or torment on scepter block (counter pressure application)).

We’re talking IP Shatter here, aka double ranged shatter, or GS sword/torch/pistol. The typical setup that makes this build viable (for all intents and purposes), and the so caled “meta” build. 4, 4, 0, 0, 6.

Lolz,it is not “vague” everyone knows when somone saying shatter mesmer,is for the IP one.The “Maim shatter” is just called condi shatter.

Yeah so anyway, this thread was an interesting read.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/thief/Vs-Mesmer-Thief-Perspective/first#post4751543

I’ll add, consume plasma is actually a massive part of them being so hard to deal with via aegis and stability.

Unless you have Shattered Concentration traited, any attempt to daze or stun their assault is essentially for nothing. Mind you this is only a terribly huge problem when a Mesmer runs glassy zerker builds.

I’ve personally (finally) found an incredibly solid hybrid build (after years of play and testing) that absolutely chews through anything like a freight train (and I would love to share this but I’m so lazy and I’m still putting it though a ton of testing) but Consume Plasma is quite literally a massive factor in their dominance over Mesmers as a whole.

Secondary to that is the poison on steal which kind of puts the nail in the coffin with the very sparse amount of condition removal we have as it is.

Honestly if steal had line of sight mechanics like it kitten well should have, life would be SO much easier.

Any tankier mesmer build will wreck thieves, you’ll just be less useful in a teamfight. Fighting thieves is trivial with a nonzerker phantasm build.

Pretty interesting but in essence your build works because of sustained pressure from range, to be precise it works because of the iDuelist. Thieves suck at dealing with sustained pressure from range (that damaged being a channel skill makes it even worse), especially if there is also spike damage which needs to be avoided (in your case iSowordsman synced with the iUnload).

Basically the only option left for them is to go for a damage race and make sure they have stealth ready for the stomp, you can see that in your vid the players doing better are the agressive ones they faild to realise that the fight is not over with you in down state.
If they get rid of the iDuelist and press 1 more you will lose 1v1 a lot more than you win.

For what it is worth: All in all nice playing I like the s/s stuff you do and how agressive you are.

I was gonna say something, but skcamow pretty much hit the nail on the head:

skcamow.3527:

Ross Biddle.2367:

trooper.2650:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Added a pure vs thief montage
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iz3vb8fBIoY

Somebody may think you have something against thieves Do you?

Actually my beef is with Mesmers atm. To much QQ over them being hard countered by thieves. All the while trying to run a build not viable against them -_-u

In high tier play, running a build other than shatter just isn’t as effective as any other mesmer build currently available. Double ranged seems to be the most popular, but you’re seeing many more Sw/T-GS or Staff shatter mesmers to help with the thief issue (and it indeed does).

When you get down below high level play, I 100% agree with your statement.

Even so, it could justifiably be said that the aspiring few top tier players learning the most effective build and getting wrecked over and over by the hard counter gets old. The QQ is understandable. For the more casual players, yeah stop whining when there are plenty of builds you can play.

The ultimate issue in my opinion is a lack of build diversity in the top tier.

P.S. nice montage

The advice you give here is great for anything below high tier play, but as you ascend the pyramid your build choices really start to narrow. The question of “Why take a Mesmer when you can have X?” becomes much harder to justify in favor of the Mesmer, especially when Thieves crush the most dominant and useful Mesmer build (IP Shatter).

The suggestion of “just change your build” isn’t as easy at that point, but the problem still persists. The only way that will change is finding another role Mesmer can viably play at top level, which is what I’m hoping for from the “Chronomancer” spec.

Those thieves weren’t very good.

We can try different builds all we want it doesn’t change the fact that:

• Consume Plasma exists
• Illusions provide free hits for Cloak and Dagger
• Most of our skills require a target
• Our defenses aren’t effective against spammable skills

The devs even admitted there was a problem months ago but never did anything about it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qD9Tvfk1pjk#t=2885

Elitist.8701:

Those thieves weren’t very good.

Lol, you can always expect this comment to come up (from the #2 thief NA no less).

If a thief looses he’s not very good. Case muted. If the thief would have won, he’s amazing, showcase muted. Yeah I get it.

kylwilson.9137:

Consume Plasma.

QFT. They should change consume plasma to give 5s of Chaos Armor.

Play both profs and you’ll have a much easier time on both sides of it. I’m constantly amazed at how easily I can down mesmers on my thi, and at how often I come out on top when jumped by a thi on my mes.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Elitist.8701:

Those thieves weren’t very good.

Lol, you can always expect this comment to come up (from the #2 thief NA no less).

If a thief looses he’s not very good. Case muted. If the thief would have won, he’s amazing, showcase muted. Yeah I get it.

Those thieves didn’t even dodge your phantasms. Not even once. Then they completely stopped the pressure once they got bombed once and they insta stealed every time. They didn’t even dodge the scepter block sometimes. In no world could those thieves be considered good, if you wanna see how your build does against good thieves I’d happily duel you and the end result will likely be something like 100-0 every time in my favor. Builds based on phantasms can’t counter opponents. You can’t outplay your opponents because AI doesn’t react, and once you hit a certain tier of opponent you cant outplay them so you GET outplayed.

I’m using a torment/confusion build right now, it melts thieves:
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpNtNqxTNcrNiuBdyWEDUvjfMySGgdB-TlBEABJoEMH1fMe/BAM/piuBhU+BA-w

When they stealth, wait for them to stealth. Block it, then immediately spawn 3 illusions with mirror image and decoy. Shatter them with F2. That alone will ravage them. Double roll and get another clone up, F1 shatter to finish. My favorite part about this build is the sheer level of condition spike you can get. 12 torment stacks and 6 confusion stacks in the span of ~4 seconds.

^ I could dodge twice and avoid all of that. You’ve just wasted mirror images and decoy and I’ll proceed to 100-0 you. Sorry :/

Elitist.8701:

^ I could dodge twice and avoid all of that. You’ve just wasted mirror images and decoy and I’ll proceed to 100-0 you. Sorry :/

Better listen to him, Storm. There’s no arguing with an elitist.