Guild Wars 2

So

Duels – not champion anymore and who cares in a 1vs1
Pve – TW slave
Pvp – necro warrior or spirit ranger please
WvwvW – what can you do is portal the gollems to x from y , portal slave ! Veil on 3 !!!

And armagedon please go on your main char aka elementalist ! Stop calling mesmer OP as another class player !

dani.1956:

So

Duels – not champion anymore and who cares in a 1vs1

What class do you really think can duel better than a mesmer?

I can think of a couple who are “roughly” equal.
*S/D Thief.
*Burst-spec’ed D/D Ele

Both have good mobility, and can do reasonable DPS, with the right kit.

i dont interest pvx,

As this game named… Guildwars..
(WvW) But I mean competitive, challenging, balanced fight.. Guild vs Guild, GvG,
Like 20vs20 as a deathmatch, on a clear land(no keep, attarctions, arrow carts… etc)

The Fight with 20 man guild players, vs 20 man guild players for be Fair..

So i am asking the same things.. U always try to skip.. u acts as a developers..
Why u select mesmer in your 20/25 group, and Why, give me detailed explanation?

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Pyroatheist.9031:

So

WvW

Mesmer has a lot of very unique things they can do in WvW. Portaling, veil, feedback, null field, aoe stuns, aoe dazes, confusion spreading, boon sharing. These are all pretty unique things that mesmers can do that other classes can’t. A mesmer put into the proper comp will enhance the effectiveness of everyone there.
.

THIS.

*for those skills i already answered u but u didint reply on my previous post

-A mesmer put into the proper comp will enhance the effectiveness of everyone there.
*How? can it be better than other classes.. with doesnt lose overall effectiveness? compare to other classes..

Advent.6193:

I can think of a couple who are “roughly” equal.
*S/D Thief.
*Burst-spec’ed D/D Ele

Both have good mobility, and can do reasonable DPS, with the right kit.

I can understand Thief as they are very strong mostly down to the broken mechanic that is stealth. However i disagree with ele. They might have good damage, they have very low health and very low defensive options.

They dont kill you with the burst then they simply die or run. with Alot of builds taking points in Chaos we have some very decent toughness, solid stealth and great skills. They are limited to Melee which is another count against them as they can be easily kited until they use RTL but that is dodgable and even then you have skills such as Phase Retreat on Staff or the knockback on Greatsword or the BF on sword to counter that.

Actually, I’d add 4-5 Mesmers on a team like that, Azo. Why, you ask? Let me toss out a few reasons:

• Sheer panic and absolute chaos. 4 or 5 “become” 16 or 20.
• Between Perplexity Interrupt/Condi-spec, and Triforce builds … you gain an arseton of reflects/AoE Confusion/AoE interrupts
• Mindgames with Veils and Portals.
• Targeted Time Warps, so that we kill you faster.

Now, as for Stability or Boons:

• Bountiful Interruption/SoI combo on at least one group Mesmer. Interrupt, gain nice chunk of Boons, share ’em, profit
• Not to mention, Null Field or Arc-Thievery … remove that annoying Stability from members of the enemy team
• Linked Chaos Storms for fun and profit. Target ’em near each other, but not on top … that way, you maximize your amount of targets.

Azo.5860:

*for those skills i already answered u but u didint reply on my previous post

-A mesmer put into the proper comp will enhance the effectiveness of everyone there.
*How? can it be better than other classes.. with doesnt lose overall effectiveness? compare to other classes..

You speak of GvG as its the ONLY thing you can do, It is not. Sure some classes might be better at certain things, can they do ALL of them in one class? Name another class that offers the same utilities the Mesmer offers.

As far as i know, No other class can offer AoE quickness, AoE stealth, projectile reflection, boon stripping, condition stripping, AoE confusion, AoE interrupts, AoE Dazes, Portals and thats just some of the utilities and a elite.

You go into traits, you have AoE confusion, Random condition and cripple from clones dying and they will die alot. You have retal from CoF, you have targetted projectile reflection with iWarden

Just because SOME guilds dont use them does NOT mean they are underpowered or useless. It is all about the build and playstyle. you can have 2 Mesmers and they could be vastly different and still have that solid defensive options

Then you get the clones, You take 5 Mesmers suddenly its not 5 Mesmers you are fighting it is 20, kill the wrong one and conditions you going to make people panic, they could also chain the shatters to wipe out placed Marks from necros as well to make the person that shatters next have a clearer line and such

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

I can understand Thief as they are very strong mostly down to the broken mechanic that is stealth. However i disagree with ele. They might have good damage, they have very low health and very low defensive options.

I’m not even accounting for Stealth. A well-tricked Evasion Thief is plenty dangerous.
I don’t consider myself an expert … but I’ve run that weaponset, and it gets biz handled. Mesmer’s more fun, mind … but don’t count out the S/D’s. Hell, don’t count out a well-played Thief, period.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

They dont kill you with the burst then they simply die or run. with Alot of builds taking points in Chaos we have some very decent toughness, solid stealth and great skills. They are limited to Melee which is another count against them as they can be easily kited until they use RTL but that is dodgable and even then you have skills such as Phase Retreat on Staff or the knockback on Greatsword or the BF on sword to counter that.

True. But any Ele who’s had to deal with Mesmers should be smart enough to bait out those moves. Not to mention, many of our guys run with crap condi removal. Even a “combat” Ele still accesses Bleed/Burn/etc. Let alone L-Flash and/or FGS rushdowns.

Advent.6193:

I’m not even accounting for Stealth. A well-tricked Evasion Thief is plenty dangerous.
I don’t consider myself an expert … but I’ve run that weaponset, and it gets biz handled. Mesmer’s more fun, mind … but don’t count out the S/D’s. Hell, don’t count out a well-played Thief, period.

True. But any Ele who’s had to deal with Mesmers should be smart enough to bait out those moves. Not to mention, many of our guys run with crap condi removal. Even a “combat” Ele still accesses Bleed/Burn/etc. Let alone L-Flash and/or FGS rushdowns.

Not really encountered many evasion thieves, the moment i see them and they go stealth i wait a few seconds run towards where they were pop stealth and dodge roll for another clone more often then not that will bait out the thief from stealth.

Now sure that cant be done very time, but we have plenty of other options i like the Torment one myself. Soon as they try to burst me i go for iCoutner, give them some torment, phase retreat out and see where it goes. Confusion and Retal are what for me normally works against a thief.

Ele wise i see what weapons they are using, i find it very easy to kite them in Staff and i normally start out with Scepter/Pistol. I see them i use Magic Bullet a nice little stun, and just enough time for a Duelist. I have confusing Images and spammable clones as well with Scepter Auto. They stun me, weapon switch and and Phase Retreat

I havent yet encountered a Ele that can burst anywhere near as well as say a Thief, Ranger and Warrior can be pretty solid at that but i have other utilities for them.

Mesmer has a lot of very unique things they can do in WvW. Portaling, veil, feedback, null field

Warriors and guards will cleanse conditions much better than mesmers ever will. Boon stripping doesn’t even matter on null field because it’s a small AOE and the boons will just be reapplied, plus zerg fights move so quickly that nobody will even be in the AOE within three seconds.

aoe stuns, dazes

Warrior hammer stuns and elementalist static fields blow mesmer stuns/dazes out of the water.

confusion spreading

Confusion is mostly a blank in WvW unless you’re on about roaming.

boon sharing

Or you could just use warriors and guardians, where pure of voice converts a condition in to a boon, warhorn cleanses CC and applies swiftness, empower gives 12 stacks of might, and light field + blast applies retaliation. Boon sharing from a mesmer is hardly needed when you can do crazy things like stack 3 minutes of swiftness in WvW. Like I said, boons are constantly applied and reapplied in WvW.

—

Do you not actually read my posts? I said 20% of the damage, we all know that Phantasms ARE going to get a nerf would you rather have that nerf and nothing else or rather have that nerf and the Mesmer attacks increased a bit?

You can’t sugar coat the sheer DPS loss we would get from a phantasm damage nerf by saying it would be good if the mesmer themself gets a damage boost. Damage modifiers were that disappointing for me I don’t even use them in dungeons anymore, I use battle and bloodlust sigils because at least that way I’m increasing both my own and my phantasm DPS.

You are also ignoring the fact that Mesmers dont just play Shatter or Phantasm builds. Increasing the actual mesmer damage a bit could help bring some new builds to the front. Currently they are lagging behind Shatter and Phantasm due to how much damage Phantasms do.

Or maybe ANet should stop trying to push awful mechanics like interrupts in a game full of instant casts.

THIS.

Or you could not just let yourself be spoonfed by everything Pyroatheist says and actually think for yourself.

Not to say that he’s wrong on a lot of things, just that he’s not infallible, and the same applies to me (e.g. ranger viability in dungeons, damage % modifiers on phantasms).

For example:

Mesmer has a lot of very unique things they can do in WvW … aoe stuns … these are all pretty unique things that mesmers can do that other classes can’t

Is a lie, five seconds in world vs. world will allow you to be on the receiving end of a warrior’s hammer stun… which is an AOE stun.

But sometimes I get the impression people argue with me for the hell of it rather than actually having a leg to stand on.

@ArmageddonAsh: The phantasm damage nerf rumor that seems to be getting thrown around a lot is simply that: a rumor. I looked into that a long time ago, and was simply unable to find any substance behind it. There were no dev posts saying anything, nothing on any streams, not even any potential leaked patch notes. The rumor simply materialized out of thin air, and whoever started it is laughing his kitten off right now.

@Colesy: Mesmers do have unique utilities that other classes lack. Warriors can do aoe stuns, but with proper traiting, the aoe potential of mesmers is incredibly high, much higher than 5 targets. This high target limit is a theme. High target limit boon stripping with shatters, high target limit confusion application, high target limit cripples and condition application and stealthing.

Mesmers are able to work around or completely bypass many scaling limitations that other classes must abide by, and using those utilities to your advantage is how you make best use of a Mesmer in wvw.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

CrazyDuck.4610:

-Stability mantra/stability needs a buff! Long cast time, long cool down and only lasts 2 seconds for each mantra which makes it pretty useless for “pushing” into anything.

Mantra’s overall are pretty weak, not just this one, Though i rarely need stability anyway.

I’m not so sure about that. I’ve started using Fay’s Mantra Build in sPvP lately, and they can be really amazing when combined with other aspects of the Mesmer. (also, condi removal)

But ya, 2 seconds of stability is pretty lame.

Warriors can do aoe stuns, but with proper traiting, the aoe potential of mesmers is incredibly high, much higher than 5 targets. This high target limit is a theme

Those one/two stacks of confusion and blind I dropped on a bunch of people after planting a feedback was so awesome.

High target limit boon stripping with shatters

Except clones get eaten alive by AoE, and this problem gets even worse against an organised guild.

high target limit cripples and condition application

Melandru runes, lemongrass soup, GG. Hoping some group of 20-60 players doesn’t have condition removal …well.

Mesmers are able to work around or completely bypass many scaling limitations that other classes must abide by, and using those utilities to your advantage is how you make best use of a Mesmer in wvw.

Right, so portals and veils. Null field sucks, feedback sucks against organised groups, everything else sucks. Time Warp has a five player limit.

Whenever I use my mesmer in guild raids, beyond the initial veil, nothing else I do really does as much as other classes, we have that narrow utility but that’s it.

I like the class, I really do. But in PvE, we’re mostly replaceable in competent groups (when they’re not feeling lazy and just doing 3 war 1 guard 1 mes because it’s easy mode), and in WvW we have narrow utility and nothing more.

colesy.8490:

Warriors can do aoe stuns, but with proper traiting, the aoe potential of mesmers is incredibly high, much higher than 5 targets. This high target limit is a theme

Those one/two stacks of confusion and blind I dropped on a bunch of people after planting a feedback was so awesome.

High target limit boon stripping with shatters

Except clones get eaten alive by AoE, and this problem gets even worse against an organised guild.

high target limit cripples and condition application

Melandru runes, lemongrass soup, GG. Hoping some group of 20-60 players doesn’t have condition removal …well.

Mesmers are able to work around or completely bypass many scaling limitations that other classes must abide by, and using those utilities to your advantage is how you make best use of a Mesmer in wvw.

Right, so portals and veils. Null field sucks, feedback sucks against organised groups, everything else sucks. Time Warp has a five player limit.

Whenever I use my mesmer in guild raids, beyond the initial veil, nothing else I do really does as much as other classes, we have that narrow utility but that’s it.

I like the class, I really do. But in PvE, we’re mostly replaceable in competent groups (when they’re not feeling lazy and just doing 3 war 1 guard 1 mes because it’s easy mode), and in WvW we have narrow utility and nothing more.

This come from a T1 wvw player and its like i said , mesmer is crap compared to other classes that just spam 1 and get more dps and utility in the zerg / raids ! The rest that say the mesmer got utility in wvw and its the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best of the best exit your t5+ WvW rankings and move for some time in a PRO WvW tier !

To be honest, T1 is just 3 servers, I don’t really fancy balance revolving around such a minority much. :S

Pyroatheist.9031:

@ArmageddonAsh: The phantasm damage nerf rumor that seems to be getting thrown around a lot is simply that: a rumor. I looked into that a long time ago, and was simply unable to find any substance behind it. There were no dev posts saying anything, nothing on any streams, not even any potential leaked patch notes. The rumor simply materialized out of thin air, and whoever started it is laughing his kitten off right now.

for NOW it is a rumor, Given time and enough complaints from the casual players and it will happen, maybe not now but it will. In a way i hope it happens so that we can get buffed elsewhere. Having like 75% of our damage coming from AI isnt that fun in my opinion

Carighan.6758:

To be honest, T1 is just 3 servers, I don’t really fancy balance revolving around such a minority much. :S

In T1 are pro tactic rest is casual gameplay in wvw ! What you said shows that you never been in a T1 to fight versus some good guys !

Advent.6193:

Actually, I’d add 4-5 Mesmers on a team like that, Azo. Why, you ask? Let me toss out a few reasons:

*it makes chaos on field to be targeting and overall battlefield picture, but its not worth swap 5 other classes to mesmers to win match/to increase overall effectiveness.. with as this 1 2 hits on clones and they die.. for berserk phantsm as well.. if u use izerker on meelee train if they swallow random hammers izerker couldnt hit 1 as well which is your 1 primiray aeo with 20 sec. however compare eles?? 6-10 sec, and field..
*Perplexity on int/ is not unique for mesmers, it works on wars.. some how same or more better effect.. and the math of conditions damage is not enough compare to power damages.. reflects, i dont see enough projectiles to have reflect in gvg.. its not a pve players vs pve players :P lol not all zerker.. compare to other classes example with war i couldnt see fair advantage for mesmers aeo interuppts, some notes: probably u lack of gvg experience.. the group have in orders stability, there much cleanse everywhere, meta foods lemongrass.. and u can cc interupt lines but it doesnt seems fair 35 sec cooldown (staff) on 1 2 player to cc.. and other notes gvg has some how fast mobile game style in 1 location how long can u see player.. and for boon stripe.. cuz of mobile game nullfield is not enough to take stabilities, and there over over buffs on all..
*mind games works.. best selection for mesmer.. thats why we say skill/slot bot for mesmers..
*Tw, i gave the example of it.. its some huge effectiveness in 10 sec. but there re have some cons on the other side of glass, example banner has same or much more better effectiveness on group on battle field.. u can see on my pre vious post..
still it makes mesmer unique with this skill.. did i say mesmers are skill/slot bot..

*bouintiful int. it works very vell on random fights in wvw.. with upskilled players, with pve zerker players, with rally bots, pugs.. and with some sync with mesmers traits items, yumi yumi, inspiration signet spread boons wow.. while i wait rarly/random interupts for not enough awards.. while other classes can do it with 1 skill.. while i ve pleanty things that focus on, tack on foe, skills, commanders commands, boons conditions, i check stability use and still small chance to trigger interrupts, anyway rather than other war.. i would rather choose chaotic dampening if i ve staff.. or not if have gs, i choose gs training..
*nullfield, is not enough to rip stability vs team oriented teams.. archane thievery lack of slot.. which we have 3..

• chaos storm.. with 35 sec cd.. untraited.. other classes skills have more profits..
• choosing staff, can lack of other roles.. anyway its situational for me

ArmageddonAsh,
*yes idont have pve experience except for fast leveling for my lvl 80 mesmer, cuz dont interest, and dont enjoy with pve
*spvp/tpvp, i ve some fair experience, almost rank40,
-i start game with xpvp to till i ve rank 36/37 i bored, all my 6-7 years competitive gaming friends from gw1 friends abandon game cuz of there is no offical gvg then i make lvl 80 mesmer and play wvw in competitive guild, i ve some not much age i have ~1500 hours but %90 of mesmer in xpvp and wvw..
*of course some classes have better focus, but mesmer doesnt have selectable focus/role rather than other classes, yes maybe mesmer have some more various variations have little little minor things than he can get(while suporting, give cond spread, with some fair survival, and have some damage, random dazes…) but it doesnt give advantage rather than focus on best thing.. and the utilities u re saying make mesmer skill bot.. if u want crowd controller is not best selection mesmer, or if u want support mesmer is not best selection, or as a dps, or burst/spike striker, or tank, destroyer.. i am asking asking again say a role that can mesmer do better than other classes.. in effectiveness.. while mesmer can do crowd controller, as not enough as war hammer stuns, can give damage as other classes , or can tank u can hybrid as well..

u say..
*aeo confusion
pros:
-condition spread
cons:
-low condition damage
-needed more traits to pros on aeo confusion
-while u pros on aeo confusion with traits, u lack much traits..

if u pros on aeo confusion probably u go for dps primarly and for secondarly crowd controller.. ? is it? and if u go with full glamour confusion build.. or what build u mean.. u will lack of duel X that spam clones and let them die for cc conditions spread..
why should i go for cof for retal do i tank ?
i warden u spawn it probably hit minimum damage and die where has projitile to i ll focus for reflect ??
who use mesmers? in this meta? u say it is all about build / playstyle.. but the problem is overall effectiveness compare to other classes..
a skillful player can choose mesmer easily, probably is thief who destroy lines..

Low damage? My Confusion hits from between 2-3.5k+ on Warriors and Guardians i have seen a few 4k hits on Thieves as well. I wouldnt really call that low. I aim for my Phantasms to do one set of damage then i either shatter them or they die, thats fine with me with the AoE Cripple, Confusion and random condition they spread.

I have CoF traited – 6 stacks of AoE confusion and get 15+ seconds of Retal, so its a secondary effect and a nice bonus to that. I use CoF for offensive work rather then just for the Retal. Then add to that the fact EVERY shatter gives confusion, so Mindwreck is pretty good damage, AoE Interrupt+ Confusion+Perplexity Confusion is a nice amount of confusion as well

So you think because they dont work in YOUR very specific GvG matches then they simply dont work in any?

imo its pros with zerg vs zerg, but in fair matches.. GvG.. it doesnt effectful as it looks, if u see the empty side of glass.. if u can give me a link of your build.. with full edited.. i can give more detailed why it doesnt fit..

It’s quite funny actually how Ash and Advent try to say that running mesmers spamming clones is something that can cause people to panic, because that quite literally never happens.

colesy.8490:

It’s quite funny actually how Ash and Advent try to say that running mesmers spamming clones is something that can cause people to panic, because that quite literally never happens.

Its quite funny that you seem to think that because YOU dont see it, it means that it doesnt happen. Remind me how you get time to watch ALL the action from all the servers and all the GvG matches?

Because you dont see it happening, that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Just like how just because Mesmers dont do “well” in YOUR matches that means they cant do well in others.

Azo.5860:

imo its pros with zerg vs zerg, but in fair matches.. GvG.. it doesnt effectful as it looks, if u see the empty side of glass.. if u can give me a link of your build.. with full edited.. i can give more detailed why it doesnt fit..

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fgUQNAW7alwzaqXVzoGbNJi5DBHKFb31RqQpVmBudhA-j0xAINBZaBM1JQ5wioxq0FS1MY64ILFAETjA-w

That is my build, i run with 6/6 Perplexity as well but they arent available on the site. Utility wise it varies from time to time and target to target.

Its quite funny that you seem to think that because YOU dont see it, it means that it doesnt happen. Remind me how you get time to watch ALL the action from all the servers and all the GvG matches?

If people got scared in a GvG of mesmer clones and I was their guild leader, I’d tear in to them because it’s pathetic and you should have more discipline than that. In normal ZvZ combat, clones don’t survive long enough for them to even be remotely threatening besides light pressure, plus it’s blatantly obvious when something is a clone.

Because you dont see it happening, that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Just like how just because Mesmers dont do “well” in YOUR matches that means they cant do well in others

CoN mesmers perform perfectly fine, it’s just that we’re limited with what we can do because we’re so narrow in our use, and what utility we can slot in our skill bar is just blanked by fast moving fights, lack of projectiles and constant boon application.

No, seriously, please stop on this line of thought completely, it’s kind of embarrassing to think another mesmer on this forum honestly thinks that spamming clones in WvW is actually intimidating in ZvZ/GvG.

colesy.8490:

If people got scared in a GvG of mesmer clones and I was their guild leader, I’d tear in to them because it’s pathetic and you should have more discipline than that. In normal ZvZ combat, clones don’t survive long enough for them to even be remotely threatening besides light pressure, plus it’s blatantly obvious when something is a clone.

CoN mesmers perform perfectly fine, it’s just that we’re limited with what we can do because we’re so narrow in our use, and what utility we can slot in our skill bar is just blanked by fast moving fights, lack of projectiles and constant boon application.

No, seriously, please stop on this line of thought completely, it’s kind of embarrassing to think another mesmer on this forum honestly thinks that spamming clones in WvW is actually intimidating in ZvZ/GvG.

Like i said, not EVERY guild uses the same tactics, the same formation and everything else. Not every guild runes the exact same set up, with the exact same classes, builds and everything else. I am simply stating because it doesnt work for YOU that doesnt mean that it doesnt work for another guild on another server.

I think it’s you that needs to stop, You are the one that is trying to make out that the class is next to useless. Did i say intimidating? No, no i didnt. So if you cant even be bothered to read what i am writing then this is pointless. Continue to think they are next to useless simply because your guild doesnt use them.

Last time I met perplexity confusion mesmer on my guardian when I was getting into action for monthly kills, just kept running forward spamming 1. Mesmer seemingly executed escape plan after three failed consecutive confusion bursts that took my three shouts on cooldown.
:P

Shatterburst mesmers are way more dangerous. At least, I notice them.

Winds.3087:

Last time I met perplexity confusion mesmer on my guardian when I was getting into action for monthly kills, just kept running forward spamming 1. Mesmer seemingly executed escape plan after three failed consecutive confusion bursts that took my three shouts on cooldown.
:P

Thats the difference between how they play and i do, i dont aim to burst confusion, i let it go as i am playing rather then just simply trying to burst everything i have at the start because as you have seen it can be very wasteful

You know what, colesy – I’ll give fair cred for you sticking up for your servermate. Indeed, I respect loyalty. However, as you two believe that ArmageddonAsh and I overstate a Mesmer’s usefulness … you do the precise opposite. As my Grandfather would say, were he still alive:
“There are three sides to every story. Yours, your opponent’s, and the truth.”

Let us then agree to disagree. Perhaps we’re less useful than “my” side believes. But bloody well, we’re more worthy than “your” side chooses to think.

Like i said, not EVERY guild uses the same tactics, the same formation and everything else. Not every guild runes the exact same set up, with the exact same classes, builds and everything else. I am simply stating because it doesnt work for YOU that doesnt mean that it doesnt work for another guild on another server.

It’s nothing to do with guild setups, it’s to do with the mesmer itself having very narrow uses (veil, portal, time warp) which work reliably. Even then, TW caps at 5.

I think it’s you that needs to stop, You are the one that is trying to make out that the class is next to useless.

No, I’m saying they’re narrow. If you don’t want to accept that our boon stripping/condi removal in ZvZ sucks, that our reflectsare replaceable and suck against experienced groups and that basically everything outside of veil, portal and time warp is awkward to use and situational, then whatever, carry on thinking mesmers are the lords of WvW despite being nothing more than a veilbot.

Did i say intimidating? No, no i didnt

you:

Then you get the clones, You take 5 Mesmers suddenly its not 5 Mesmers you are fighting it is 20, kill the wrong one and conditions you going to make people panic

So panicked people aren’t intimidated?

Continue to think they are next to useless simply because your guild doesnt use them.

Except we do use them.

Though to say it again since you’re not getting it, they’re narrow and you don’t really want to stack more than three.

—

You know what, colesy – I’ll give fair cred for you sticking up for your servermate. Indeed, I respect loyalty. However, as you two believe that ArmageddonAsh and I overstate a Mesmer’s usefulness … you do the precise opposite. As my Grandfather would say, were he still alive:
“There are three sides to every story. Yours, your opponent’s, and the truth.”

Let us then agree to disagree. Perhaps we’re less useful than “my” side believes. But bloody well, we’re more worthy than “your” side chooses to think.

This is nothing to do with sticking up for a server mate, it’s called arguing against what’s wrong. And while I’ve only watched GvGs, Azolina’s actually taken part in some and I’m pretty sure he can confirm that mesmers aren’t the embodiment of awesome that you guys seem to think they are.

You know what, i give up – Continue to think what you want. I will continue to play and very much enjoy my Mesmer knowing that not only am solid at Solo and small group fights i am also useful in the way —→ I <-— play in ZvZ fights as well.

Also, NO Intimidating is not the same as making someone Panic.

ArmageddonAsh.6430:

Thats the difference between how they play and i do, i dont aim to burst confusion, i let it go as i am playing rather then just simply trying to burst everything i have at the start because as you have seen it can be very wasteful

It doesn’t actually matter how one will deliver their confusion. If you deliver it in bursts, one of five active clears will take care of it. If you like more steady approach, that’s where passive stuff starts kickin’- 2 passive clears and foods.
I might slow my spam a bit though. Wait for your cover conditions to expire, if you use such.

Last time I died in WvW as guardian was three months ago, and that was because of vizunah lag machine that summoned around 25 people on my backside. Though after recap I still think that I could’ve get out of it in one piece, if not for lag.
You’ll need at least 3 confusion mesmers focused on such guardian to take it down – provided it will still spam skills.
And these guardians are almost never seen alone. They have at least 10 similarly built buddies stacked on them.

Winds.3087:

It doesn’t actually matter how one will deliver their confusion. If you deliver it in bursts, one of five active clears will take care of it. If you like more steady approach, that’s where passive stuff starts kickin’- 2 passive clears and foods.
I might slow my spam a bit though. Wait for your cover conditions to expire, if you use such.

Last time I died in WvW as guardian was three months ago, and that was because of vizunah lag machine that summoned around 25 people on my backside. Though after recap I still think that I could’ve get out of it in one piece, if not for lag.
You’ll need at least 3 confusion mesmers focused on such guardian to take it down – provided it will still spam skills.
And these guardians are almost never seen alone. They have at least 10 similarly built buddies stacked on them.

I tend to start out in Scepter/Pistol knowing that they will try to attack, as soon as that happens i pop iCounter for some starter conditions, along with Magic Bullet and a quick iDuelist before going to Staff for Doom proc and all the other conditions.

We have quite a few ways for confusion, so with the fact i have 100% confusion duration and like 50-60% condition duration for all other conditions i find myself doing okay.

I find it’s better not to rely on one condition alone and thus i take the Staff due to the Staff clones and Winds of Chaos for all the extra conditions as well as having the iLock. Some times take MoD as well so i have like 5 stuns/interrupts – Magic Bullet, Chaos Storm, MoD is 4 i could go further and take the other utility one but i find that to be bit of a waste due to the long stun. Then i would lose out with Utilities. Mirror Images and Decoy are pretty much a must, knowing that i can shatter and near instantly have another 3 clones or a phantom out is very useful.

i am also useful in the way —? I <-— play in ZvZ fights as well.

Except the mesmer’s only solid use is porting and veils.

Null field? The fight moves too fast. Phantasmal Disenchanter? Dies. Feedback? Fine against PUGs, a joke agains torganised groups besides using it as an AOE for traited glamours. Phantasmal Defender? Melts. Signet of Inspiration? Your zerg stacks boons just fine.

You know what, if you don’t want toa ccept that mesmers aren’t as good as you think they are in WvW, then fine, be wrong. Pull the “I play how I want card” if you want, it drops you automatically to a guy whose opinions I should ignore because I’ve had that played against me by non-berserker scrubs in the dungeon forum too many times for me to even bother considering their opinions any more than trash.

Also, NO Intimidating is not the same as making someone Panic.

Define:intimidate – “Frighten or overawe (someone), esp. in order to make them do what one wants.”

Define:panic – “1.Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behavior”

So you make clones to make them fearful and do what you want, which would be to attempt to disengage (at which point you run them down).

One more thing I’ll add. Namely that I wish that all of the “Mesmers are OP!” crowd would check out this thread. It might just manage to shut them up.

colesy.8490:

i am also useful in the way —? I <-— play in ZvZ fights as well.

Except the mesmer’s only solid use is porting and veils.

Null field? The fight moves too fast. Phantasmal Disenchanter? Dies. Feedback? Fine against PUGs, a joke agains torganised groups besides using it as an AOE for traited glamours. Phantasmal Defender? Melts. Signet of Inspiration? Your zerg stacks boons just fine.

You know what, if you don’t want toa ccept that mesmers aren’t as good as you think they are in WvW, then fine, be wrong. Pull the “I play how I want card” if you want, it drops you automatically to a guy whose opinions I should ignore because I’ve had that played against me by non-berserker scrubs in the dungeon forum too many times for me to even bother considering their opinions any more than trash.

Define:intimidate – “Frighten or overawe (someone), esp. in order to make them do what one wants.”

Define:panic – “1.Sudden uncontrollable fear or anxiety, often causing wildly unthinking behavior”

So you make clones to make them fearful and do what you want, which would be to attempt to disengage (at which point you run them down).

Except i dont use either of them and yet i find myself doing just find in Zerg fights as well as solo/small groups. This is just me and how I play, i cant care how other people play and what skills they THINK we must be taking. For the style that i play it does just fine.

You know the Projectile reflection isnt the only benefit of Feedback right, they are both etherreal fields and can easily get some nice stacks of confusion firing through them as well. Like i said, i play the way i do just because some people use it simply for its reflection doesnt mean everyone does.

The fact that Null field is AoE placeable its quite easy to place it in areas that you know people are fighting or going to be fighting as well.

You can continue to think that they are useless as much as you want, Come back when you have been on EVERY server and been part of GvG on all of them and have proof that Mesmers arent being used in any of them, until then its your OPINION nothing more and nothing less.

I have stated many times thakittens how I think, rather then just simply stating they are useless without having proof and basing it on 1 server and only GvG matches on that server. Again, until you have FACTS rather then just OPINIONS then i will continue to think that your views dont matter.

No, i make clones to use them, as shocking as that may sound. You saying that you have NEVER encountered anyone that gets confused by the clones about? adding to that stealth options and it can work very well now maybe its just your elitist point of view that you think your server is the only server that counts and because they are not used on yours MUST mean they arent used on any…

Advent.6193:

One more thing I’ll add. Namely that I wish that all of the “Mesmers are OP!” crowd would check out this thread. It might just manage to shut them up.

Personally i think they are fine, a few tweaks here and there mostly QoL changes, tool tip changes and such and the class is finely balanced. Could do with a bit more access to condition removal without having to trait/sigil/rune for it and a bit more access to swiftness would be nice as well.

Most of the people that say they are Overpowered are the ones that refuse to learn about the class, refuse to use any sort of CC and refuse to use dodges and then moan when they get killed.

Of course this view changes a bit when it comes to S/TPvP but i think that is more down to the game mode and the attainable stats in it rather then the class itself.

Ofc you can be awesome in like 1v1 situations, and with a condition mesmer you can easily 1v3 enemies as it is one of the most OP builds atm in the game.

The fact remains that in a 20v20/25v25 fights all that shiny condition application or trying to get full 3 clone shatters isn’t going to happen or even make a difference. Condition cleansing is INSANE in GvGs thanks to guardians and warriors.

There’s also the thing that you aren’t going to tag people much in zerg fights, which is one thing why people don’t even want to bring mesmers in wvw, other than to run with roaming builds that won’t do anything in zvz fights. Guardians staff 1 spam or warrior hammer swinging left to right tags WAY more and with a lot more efficiency. Eles spam aoe fields all day long and necros come in 2nd best at that.

If you haven’t got a guardian you should really roll one and see how faceroll that class is in large fights. Playing a mesmer in a group, besides veil, nullfield and occasional portal, nets you very few kills and feels very unrewarding.

ArmageddonAsh: So you think because they dont work in YOUR very specific GvG matches then they simply dont work in any?

• U know the answer.. situational mesmer works in any environment with which glasses u want to look.. as anything, works situationaly.. But the topic is ``Time to Buff/Balance other aspects of mesmer`` in a title of i mean..
  With GvG i mean Guild vs Guild [which is the name of this game is Guild Wars 2 (who play Guildwars 1 can understand better )] forget to see gvg then..
  i mean balance/fair fights, where one has not any other advantage rather than other.. where needed self talent, and team work/sync/orginize.. i am not talking about zvz pvx example of 20vs20 with some rules(no slackers, no upskilled, no ressing dead, maybe no weapon stacks to make it more fair fights) which teams primary goal is to kill all other team, maybe with award of win points to climb king of the hills.. maybe with best of 5/9 rounds.. Democratic..
  it doesnt sound silly to me.. anybody think it is.. ? everybody can have ve some differ fun self-explanitation.. and thats mine.. and i see that i am not alone with `specific GvG match u mean`(except of pleanty retired players (who couldnt find any offical gvg, as my ex-guild kitten mine 7 years gaming friends since early of gw1 who still here or who has just taste it u can follow.. which is to banished``In-game Events``side : https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/community/events/Unofficial-GvG-Scene-Thread/first#post2651461

colesy.8490:

It’s quite funny actually how Ash and Advent try to say that running mesmers spamming clones is something that can cause people to panic, because that quite literally never happens.

ArmageddonAsh : Its quite funny that you seem to think that because YOU dont see it, it means that it doesnt happen. Remind me how you get time to watch ALL the action from all the servers and all the GvG matches?

Because you dont see it happening, that doesnt mean it doesnt happen. Just like how just because Mesmers dont do “well” in YOUR matches that means they cant do well in others.

• It seems Akitten happened to me when i ve just started game.. Its happening, but its not happening in team oriented guilds,
  - Yes i would like to watch other pov mesmer`s gvg matches, any link for that?.. probably i ve already watched all what is already available.. Do u ever experienced any gvg Ash? or do u ve matches with team oriented vs team oriented videos?
  -Ofc we are talking with this meta, we re responsible mesmers that join in this conversation.. i share my opinions for mesmers cons compare to other classes, maybe it would better hear discussions from gvg players mesmers..
  -i play mesmer in our gvg, i am a guy who want to improve.. i ve some gvg matches http://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3AedWWDk4PhfHS3OQNu6Q/videos
  which are recorded personal for my team and for myself to can judge/discuss my self..
  when u wathced these what would u say/offer me? i would appriciate..

Ash: I am simply stating because it doesnt work for YOU that doesnt mean that it doesnt work for another guild on another server.

• Yes not all do the same.. so is there any mesmer that show me that can better effectly compare to other classes in his team..?

Ash: I think it’s you that needs to stop, You are the one that is trying to make out that the class is next to useless.

• Its not useless.. unselectiable other than veil, portal, tw..

Ash: Continue to think they are next to useless simply because your guild doesnt use them.

• We already have 1 or 2, if i would be example ele, guard or thief etc.. i would be more usefull.. who use? and why? and how?

Winds: Shatterburst mesmers are way more dangerous. At least, I notice them.

• Yes.. me 2.. however they have some role to can do some burst better than other classes.. thats why i try to choose it and try to pros on it.. exp: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJg6nFrdesg however there re some other usages.. exp: starts with vulnerability.. however we can spec that in gvg its not as efficent while we traited to pros that sacrifising others.. an the most thing is for me it push u to hardly regroup, or let u in risk/bomb.. and RETAL.chaos armors.. Binding Blades that never see that u re evading(BF) after leap with Sword#3 1/2 sec delay for Sword#2 that u can get straits stuns in bombs, while u dont have any enough selections of stun breakers.. Shatter effect highly decrease when your illusions got killed on the way..

Colesy: It’s nothing to do with guild setups, it’s to do with the mesmer itself having very narrow uses (veil, portal, time warp) which work reliably. Even then, TW caps at 5.

• Its not about mesmers.. Its all about game mechanic of gw2, probably its cuz of a-net`s vision (to make better profit), to let all/most casual players to let in gw2(we now how events are shiny), that they dont need competitive gaming players, maybe cuz of low population(who most already abondon gw2 already, or others getting bored, and we try let some differ modes as gvg), or while a-net is happy with this meta, they dont wanna do gvg for decrease trading post`s buys,sells which they make profit in which process its made %20 goes to anet(theory: if offical gvg comes many player will leave other modes[and probably they ll have some free/comfortable custumaziton of items (which example if we try any build on wvw we need to buy, and let %20 to go a-net).. or lazy staff, or they make a suprise at the end.. :P or let them answer.., why still we dont have gvg mode.. or etc.. that a-net can satisfy those players, instead of we are sucking on going WvW procces while we are not totally happy with thakittens not fair who like to play competitive players.. Dont u say play what ever u want as.. or smth s that..

Colesy: This is nothing to do with sticking up for a server mate, it’s called arguing against what’s wrong. And while I’ve only watched GvGs, Azolina’s actually taken part in some and I’m pretty sure he can confirm that mesmers aren’t the embodiment of awesome that you guys seem to think they are.

• Yes.. when i see other classes records in the same match which i play, u can distinguish better.. example http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qWJ39whrsLQ (no voice)
  probably is not best. but not retarted gameplay as well.. it seems that mesmers are efficent, but when u watch other of your friend record, while one of d/d ele has x3 more dps while have approximetly same bursts while more support than u, or when somebody x3 more tanking than u while doing the same dps total with 1/2bursts with x3 more support or having more more making crowd control guardian.. is an theorical examples.. but u can see differences.. so u risk for not fair awards.. the link was some training match(not competitive)..

there is no intimidating.. i would like to show of other aspects of mesmer.. instead of balancing inside mesmer maybe it gives some another thinks..

Ash: I tend to start out in Scepter/Pistol…

• Why dont u let Thiefs to destroy others.. or u mean to attack on melee train for aeo for massive effect.. where has pleany clearing conditions..

Advent: One more thing I’ll add. Namely that I wish that all of the “Mesmers are OP!” crowd would check out this thread. It might just manage to shut them up.

• :) if i would devoloper/a-net team i would say mesmers are OP.. why should i put another thing on my list while i ve a list as a book..

ArmageddonAsh: You can continue to think that they are useless as much as you want, Come back when you have been on EVERY server and been part of GvG on all of them and have proof that Mesmers arent being used in any of them, until then its your OPINION nothing more and nothing less.

• ok u gave some minor game mechanic details that we already know, how about in view of major things.. as that will u be more effectful than Thief?
  now u try to do mindgames ``go every server, been part of gvg on all of them..`` We try to discuss whats we have now, instead of u do brainstorm u stuck on casual things, that dont want to take out your glassess
  My opinions are for disscuss, but why u opposing me while u ve no idea, which atmosphere i am talking about, and try to learn what i am missing.. and u change the topics to casual plays, and ignore things, and persistent that mesmers are dont need any change..?
  and my OPINION is with experiance in situations, my opinions is for kitten more experianced than me to discussthings, while u ve no idea for gvg.. maybe the point proof is who has more than 2 mesmers in gvg builds? and u just use the meta.. if there have an offical gvg.. probably there will be differ skill for stats for balance as now in pve and wvw/pvp

You can continue to say that Mesmer is nothing but a Veil bot. I will continue to play my Mesmer, not using those skills and have fun.

The End.

So basically mesmers aren’t that good but you’re not interested in listening to reason so in your head they’re perfectly fine.

If I behaved the way you did I’d still think rangers were bad, altruistic healing was good and that warriors are just hurrrrrndred blades. You should try actually being open-minded, it helps you understand your class more, and being wrong is the best thing I can ask for in this forum because it helps me learn more about the game.

Of course what happens instead is I forever slam my head against the wall arguing with people who don’t know what they’re talking about most of the time.

What is wrong with mantra condition removal?

Same woes as with other mantras: you’ll have to charge them. Very easy to rupt. And in our current situation, rupts are almost everywhere.

SteepledHat.1345:

What is wrong with mantra condition removal?

try to use it in a wvw fight and u got your answer. same with trying to use the stability mantra in the tornado fight in queens gaunlet.way to easy to be interrupted.

to get back to the topic.
im a little torn between the frontlines here.both of u are right! armageddon is right if u look at the mesmer from a roaming perspective and even small groupfights and if in an organizedguild we can still perform well in gvg.
the things we do well is dueling. in spvp we did very well until condition meta hit.fooling an enemy is easy and fun.people in spvp are even scarred of moa….phantasms are strong, clones are great for distraction and i find myself trying a lot of different builds there.

but i see colesy s points in term of zergs and wvw too. since glam was nerfed it has become quite hard to tag in wvw. mesmers are an extraordinary class and can be quite fun to play, but we have been stripped of quite some abilities and builds that were good in wvw. mesmers have been balanced mainly for spvp and because of that we wont see many changes or buffs as devs only see the spvp mesmer and not the wvw mesmer.

i feel mesmer needs a clearer defined role:what can we do apart from portal, that another class cant?what is our speciality? confusion is now an interruption class skill and not our signature anymore.
-clones die too quick and take away a huge amount of dmg that is supposed to be our aoe
-as other classes can pretty much do everything we can and have easier access to those things, we are kinda looked at as tw/portal/veil bots.
for example:
boonsharing:guardian does it better
reflection: engineer and guardian again
confusion:engi,stunlock warrior and thief with perplexity runes
interrupts: warrior,engi
healing:….ele,ranger
conditions:necro,warrior
aoe dps: necro,ele, warrior, guardian
glasscannon:thief, warrior
stealth: thief is more unpredictable than a mesmer with 3 clones
retaliation: guardian mass retal
stuns: engi,warrior, thief
portal, blink abilities:mesmers portal is very unique and very helpful,thief has quite some blink abilities himself, but mesmers wins this one
haste: mesmer, warrior. tw wins this one as it supports a group
aoe boonstriping: necro turns boons into conditions and conditions into boons, mes nullfield removes conditions and removes boons.necro wins this one
aoe stealth:mesmer and thief.

our specialties are mainly support based. tw,portal,massinvis,veil is what we do best atm, because everything else is already taken by other classes. so yes buffing other aspects of mesmer is needed for wvw. in spvp we are quite capable once the condi meta has toned down a little.

You’re wrong about the condition removal mantra. I use it in WvW as my main condition removal. All the time. I’m a roamer and have no issues at all using it and recharging it in combat. You can start the channel while in stealth btw.

anything changed with gvg meta? because its happening now in obsidan sanc..
what were anet say and how is going ?

i dont see any cure for mesmers however getting more harms :S

theme was created 10 moth ago… but is still actual xD