Guild Wars 2

some more action in the arena with pugs and friends
try to engage more in group play rather solo far or close
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZbiOYqeA0s&feature=youtu.be

for more mtd fights and short tutorials
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAsQEXbi15k&list=PLiT59SEZLaifPQmI9HNXyFepPEL39q-yV

p/s
finally i manage to convince that the build in metabattle site is at least consider as good but i think it deserve “great”
http://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Mesmer_-_Condi_Shatter

I’m getting ready to get in bed soon. I can’t wait to check these vids out. You’re a big proponent of the MtD build. I appreciate your previous videos!

MAIM THE META!

XP loved the jump flips, and I agree with you, it should be on great.

THANKS

i love to try things that are less common
i cant say this build is good with every group composition
but its great against the cele meta, bunkering, 1v1 far or close,

bad for me its bad if i see thief in the other group as i know i will be targeted (but same as the power shatter) and thief good d/p is hard counter for this build (for me at least)

happy to answer any question you have regarind this build in wvw and tpvp

It’s been a long time since I’ve played condi shatter mes with any kind of dedication, but watching your vid reminds me how much I LOVE mes condi spike (via shatter). Other classes feel like condi spam (engie, prime example), where’as Mesmer is still tied to timing and propper use and application of skills.

Oh, and don’t worry about the meta battle guys. They’re about a step away from the devs for knowing what’s what about the mesmer ;D

You totally made me google the last song you’ve used (shazam didn’t know it)! And I’ve found the normal and the unplugged version of it. Awesome. xD ^^

That being said, I’m playing MtD in ranked as well. Of course not with the same MMR as you, but I’ve only just started with ranked a couple days ago (friday, actually). So ya. Also, moa-ing necros in lich form NEVER gets old xD. Just saying, cause I saw that ranger raging at you, haha. (I admit I didn’t watch the video fully yet, so I dunno if a necro was included as well.~~)

I love that 8:30 or so ranger kill. You put confusion on him, and he literally killed himself, which is what you like to see when running MtD builds.

As for thieves, they’re easy enough to predict. They stealth, they wait a moment or two or three, then they strike. Sit in your chaos storm in these moments or use scepter block to avoid it and just shatter and Confusing Images them when they’re revealed. Condi pressure will usually kill them quickly if they try to fight back or run away once you get them good once or twice. It’s the smart ones that sometimes stay in stealth for long periods of times and just wait you out that can be the problem. I usually keep my stealths[Torch and Decoy] on hand once my defenses run out to quickly counter-burst them when they do finally surface.

Dondagora.9645:

I love that 8:30 or so ranger kill. You put confusion on him, and he literally killed himself, which is what you like to see when running MtD builds.

As for thieves, they’re easy enough to predict. They stealth, they wait a moment or two or three, then they strike. Sit in your chaos storm in these moments or use scepter block to avoid it and just shatter and Confusing Images them when they’re revealed. Condi pressure will usually kill them quickly if they try to fight back or run away once you get them good once or twice. It’s the smart ones that sometimes stay in stealth for long periods of times and just wait you out that can be the problem. I usually keep my stealth[Torch and Decoy] on hand once my defenses run out to quickly counter-burst them when they do finally surface.

my problem with thieves is the SR skill. d/p is basically counter to this build as his PB blind your shatter and he can spam blind on you (#3). so if they play patiently until i use all my skill and then SR they got the upper hand. if they just spam skills i will win. if they PB+HS+AA rotation its hard. also its hard to break the fight against them. in group play its more easier as its hard for them to target you in all the commotion

that’s why i try to find better tactic and fight with group when i see thief rather fighting alone on far or close

Ross Biddle.2367:

It’s been a long time since I’ve played condi shatter mes with any kind of dedication, but watching your vid reminds me how much I LOVE mes condi spike (via shatter). Other classes feel like condi spam (engie, prime example), where’as Mesmer is still tied to timing and propper use and application of skills.

exactly how i feel. every condi class is all about spamming your condi skills over and over again with low degree of timing and knowing or predicting your enemy acts.
i have play all other condi class and the thief may be close to that (in wvw and not pvp)
the condi mesmer cant spam skills (pu maybe but easy to avoid) .

when ppl asked me for help how i fight versus other classes they saw that sometimes i fight as pu and sometimes as phantasm and sometimes kittenter
sometimes on point and sometime like power shatter from afar

(i also play condi guard and hybrid guard in tpvp – yes i love condi builds!)

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Actually, Thieves don’t really scare me (anymore) when I’m playing MtD-shatter. Might be because I’m not fighting the REALLY good ones, but still… usually I can hold my own, and most of the times I can even kill them, unless I make a bad mistake or they get the jump on me (especially when I’m already in a fight with someone). Now that’s for PvP. For WvW, it might be a bit different, since power/precision/ferocity scales much better than toughness, so I have (even) less room for mistakes. I didn’t roam in WvW as much recently though, and this topic is about PvP anyway. ^^

Rome.7124:

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Exactly. These builds allow you to take a lot of boon rip, which is the bane to a lot of the popular meta builds. And the constant sustained condition pressure overrides their defense against burst dmg mitigation.

Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either so that’s why you have a team to help you with him. Thief is always difficult, but if you can get one good Cry of Frustration burst off without them clearing it (always save this for your last shatter against thieves), that usually scares them into defense immediately.

Shadow Refuge is kinda unfair vs MtD-shatter cause we can’t really counter it (no push or pull and no auto-attack that really works without a target); but I’ve had it happen that they would shadow refuge and I’d drop Chaos Storm on it and they would appear downed a bit later xD.

MailMail.6534:

Rome.7124:

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Exactly. These builds allow you to take a lot of boon rip, which is the bane to a lot of the popular meta builds. And the constant sustained condition pressure overrides their defense against burst dmg mitigation.

Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either so that’s why you have a team to help you with him. Thief is always difficult, but if you can get one good Cry of Frustration burst off without them clearing it (always save this for your last shatter against thieves), that usually scares them into defense immediately.

in pvp its all about tactic. if i see bunker i will fight it 1v1 on point and mostly win
if i see cele warrior on point i will probably go help in 3v2 or 4v3 on mid so my team has the advantage even though i can kill the warrior but it will take longer.

with thief i have 50% win as in team fight they usually surprise me from no where and has the advantage. but if i manage to shatter on him he will SR and this is what mostly counter me. as he can immobilze me, BS while getting hp. most of the time i can get them to 5-10% hp so they doing kamikaza on me all or nothing. thus i wont try 1v1 unless i know a team mate is near to help when needed. but what is nice that if i am on point the thief has hard time to cap it so he losing time while fighting me.

if you check higher tier in tpvp you wont see many condi build at all and that’s why i think at least 1 condi build is needed to pressure the enemy to use utilities and heal skill earlier in the fight.
yes power shatter may do nice 4k dmg from range but he wont stay on point or near it thus can be easy target to be pushed while the enemy can block’dodge evades most of his dmg. while i can do the same and even better but longer and condi which land will tick regardless and also make the enemy guaridan/ele/engi to use aoe heal blast cleanse and rip boons if traited right.
so i look at this build as softener the enemy and make it scared
i had a fight which we lost in the end but 3 enemies gg the mesmer for 4k torment tick

some fights i try to even handle 1v2 and it seems with good group cordinating i manage to usualy put both enemies in less 30% hp so when helps comes it fast down for them even if i went down

Sometimes it’s really nice to see the reactions some people show. I’ve once had a turret engi flaming me for playing a noob-PU build and that I’m too noob to play anything else than meta and I’m stupid and an idiot and whatnot… that after I killed him. A turret engi. With a condi mesmer. XD

Or yesterday I’ve killed that pewpew ranger, and the conversation was like

-“pu?”
-“no”
-“what then?”
-“MtD-shatter”
-“sick”
-“=)”

I love playing this build. I’ve played double ranged shatter too for a bit, but I find that I can do so much more with MtD and I also contribute much more to the team.

Saturn.6591:

Sometimes it’s really nice to see the reactions some people show. I’ve once had a turret engi flaming me for playing a noob-PU build and that I’m too noob to play anything else than meta and I’m stupid and an idiot and whatnot… that after I killed him. A turret engi. With a condi mesmer. XD

Or yesterday I’ve killed that pewpew ranger, and the conversation was like

-“pu?”
-“no”
-“what then?”
-“MtD-shatter”
-“sick”
-“=)”

I love playing this build. I’ve played double ranged shatter too for a bit, but I find that I can do so much more with MtD and I also contribute much more to the team.

so so true . this is what i try to bring to the mesmer community that the mtd can contribute more that meta shatter mesmer givven your team knows how to handle with it

with power shatter i used to play long time ago and notice my average dps was low. my most contribution was to engage in 2v1 fast put portal and back to 3v3 in mid etc…
but i hardly cap points – thief does it better
hardly did stomp with all the aoe/cleave around others do it better
and if i got focused i had to disengage fast (lowering my dps)

Hey Messiah,

do you have a current WvW build you use?

i stopped playing wvw as it become too zergy
you can play the same build or something like this one
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAW7flknpMtFpxTNcrRitBZqLcqag6hckVWyAMMA-TVyCABAcQAuU9nl3fYiLAQiKBzS5HFPAA90NIxRAgUAwsGA-w
for roaming mainly and small groups
with zerg you can target only the periphery

Firstly I’d like to comment on your videos. Would have liked to see some more challenging situations on the vids… these don’t really tell much if the build is viable at all, one of these apply to almost every fight:

1) You were outnumbering the enemy (or the enemy reinforced late when the first enemy was already going down)
2) You were supported by your team
3) You used moa (shame on you)
4) Enemy did not target you
5) Lack of thieves?
6) Lack of classes with heavy condi cleanse?

In the few 1v1 fights I saw (no moa), sure 6-11 or so stacks of torment at one time might just kill someone outright but the same applies to anyone eating a mirrorblade 4 clone mind wrack with power build…

My thoughts about the build, pros:

+ Heavy AoE torment and confusion in team fights
+ Team utility potential

Cons:

- Lack of boon removal on shatter
- Lack of shatter on self which gives so much flexibility
- Long cooldowns on torch
- You die of old age while waiting for scepter animations
- Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

Overall looks like the build is alright, but not great.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

Saturn.6591:

Sometimes it’s really nice to see the reactions some people show. I’ve once had a turret engi flaming me for playing a noob-PU build and that I’m too noob to play anything else than meta and I’m stupid and an idiot and whatnot… that after I killed him. A turret engi. With a condi mesmer. XD

Or yesterday I’ve killed that pewpew ranger, and the conversation was like

-“pu?”
-“no”
-“what then?”
-“MtD-shatter”
-“sick”
-“=)”

I love playing this build. I’ve played double ranged shatter too for a bit, but I find that I can do so much more with MtD and I also contribute much more to the team.

This is my favorite conversation to have.

@Wile.5024
what is challenging as power shatter ? fast burst and go out
i look for to be effective to my group
1v1 i did and prove the build is good with several tester of several guilds
its not op build (thieves eat you)
this build can handle the cele meta better the power shatter
etc…
1) outnumber situation – same as power shatter tactic or thief to look for 2v1
2)being supported – same as almost any other class who is not roamer (thief/power mesmer)
3) moa – cry to anet but power mesmer use it too to disable key target
4) Enemy did not target you – gg me i think
5) Lack of thieves? – you right here
6) Lack of classes with heavy condi cleanse? – not so true but if so i will adapt accordingly . most team go power thus not focusing in cleanse in the meta.

- i didnt say condi is better then power. but condi can do burst after burst with 3 shatter while power mesmer will blink away w8ing for recharge

pros:

+ Heavy AoE torment and confusion in team fights
+ Team utility potential
fast proc of aoe most powerful conditions
free utility slot
more armor then zerk one
make the enemy team to use utilities, cleanse, heal early in the fight
more team player and can hold/fight on points better then zerk
great against the cele meta
Cons:

- Lack of boon removal on shatter – not my job but you can play 4,4,0,0,6 if you like as condi also
- Lack of shatter on self which gives so much flexibility – dont need it
- Long cooldowns on torch- i need clones and condi dmg which torch is the best of it while being defensive weapon
- You die of old age while waiting for scepter animations – get used to it and hardly use it
- Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking – if they smart they stand and dont use skills so win win . my team will just easy kill them

Wile.5024:

1) You were outnumbering the enemy (or the enemy reinforced late when the first enemy was already going down)
2) You were supported by your team
3) You used moa (shame on you)
4) Enemy did not target you
5) Lack of thieves?
6) Lack of classes with heavy condi cleanse?

This list just tells me he was playing like a pro…

messiah.1908:

@Wile.5024
what is challenging as power shatter ? fast burst and go out
i look for to be effective to my group
1v1 i did and prove the build is good with several tester of several guilds
its not op build (thieves eat you)
this build can handle the cele meta better the power shatter

- i didnt say condi is better then power. but condi can do burst after burst with 3 shatter while power mesmer will blink away w8ing for recharge

I assume the build has most of the same challenges as power… the play style looks generally the same though would argue power needs to do more melee range combat (to make use of mirror blade and shatter on self). “Burst and blink away to wait for recharge” is not how I play power at least, you need to keep the pressure on…

Saying this build is better against celes than power… I did not see any proof on the vids, the build doesn’t have boonstrip, eles cleanse tons of conditions.

The videos were all about you being in ideal situations, you could make a montage like this with any build… a LB power ranger for example: run to an ongoing team fight, boon up, press 2 => fast kill, cut to the next fight.

While I do get these are the types of fights you want to get into, I would have wanted to see situations where things are not ideal for you which happens all the time especially if not running a full, well thought-out party. Sometimes the team is fighting 3v1 somewhere in the middle of the map, sometimes they just purely suck, sometimes you have only squishys…. 1v1 a thief or a cele, arriving to a losing team fight, team fight where the enemy actually targets the mesmer, getting outnumbered.. these sort of things. What would be more convincing that this is a great build than showing it can work against odds too?

messiah.1908:

pros:
more armor then zerk one
make the enemy team to use utilities, cleanse, heal early in the fight
more team player and can hold/fight on points better then zerk
great against the cele meta

I did forget to mention more armor as a bonus.

Would argue power causes enemies to heal slightly more quickly since the dmg is instant where conditions need time to work, also gs gives extra range. Faster need to cleanse obviously goes to the condition build.

I’m sceptical about holding the point too, you have 2 invis and no knockback, no melee weapon… sure the armor helps a bit but still.

Still not convinced this build is great, I’d be happy to watch a less one-sided video :p

I’ve been playing your MtD build tons in sPvP ever since I got back into GW2 a week or so ago and it’s been working out fantastic for me. I was a traditional/double ranged shatter guy before but once I tried MtD I can never go back. I currently run 2/4/2/0/6 taking crippling dissipation in Dom which seems to work out best for me.

I’m sitting in the top 100 on the NA ladder, pretty good I think for someone who only played GW2 for a couple months at launch and only came back within the last two weeks.

Probably a testament to how effective the build is, great work m8

Also question, is the build effective for WvW roaming at all? Or is PU a better way to go you think.

Mirb.3749:

I’ve been playing your MtD build tons in sPvP ever since I got back into GW2 a week or so ago and it’s been working out fantastic for me. I was a traditional/double ranged shatter guy before but once I tried MtD I can never go back. I currently run 2/4/2/0/6 taking crippling dissipation in Dom which seems to work out best for me.

I’m sitting in the top 100 on the NA ladder, pretty good I think for someone who only played GW2 for a couple months at launch and only came back within the last two weeks.

Probably a testament to how effective the build is, great work m8

Also question, is the build effective for WvW roaming at all? Or is PU a better way to go you think.

top 100 gz. maybe i just dont have the time …
but yes mtd can work with any varitation you need and want. cripple is also good if you got thief in your party so he can easy catch his target or with engi or guardian with aoe more ticks on the enemy

the build is effective in wvw also but in romaing or small group mainly
take traveler runes if you miss the 25% speed as it works too.
pu is slowest build but more tankier so if you miss the hp take dire armor with mtd

i think you will see that mtd kills to fast in wvw as most player are below average as they more zerg oriented

Wile.5024:

messiah.1908:

@Wile.5024
what is challenging as power shatter ? fast burst and go out
i look for to be effective to my group
1v1 i did and prove the build is good with several tester of several guilds
its not op build (thieves eat you)
this build can handle the cele meta better the power shatter

- i didnt say condi is better then power. but condi can do burst after burst with 3 shatter while power mesmer will blink away w8ing for recharge

I assume the build has most of the same challenges as power… the play style looks generally the same though would argue power needs to do more melee range combat (to make use of mirror blade and shatter on self). “Burst and blink away to wait for recharge” is not how I play power at least, you need to keep the pressure on…

Saying this build is better against celes than power… I did not see any proof on the vids, the build doesn’t have boonstrip, eles cleanse tons of conditions.

The videos were all about you being in ideal situations, you could make a montage like this with any build… a LB power ranger for example: run to an ongoing team fight, boon up, press 2 => fast kill, cut to the next fight.

While I do get these are the types of fights you want to get into, I would have wanted to see situations where things are not ideal for you which happens all the time especially if not running a full, well thought-out party. Sometimes the team is fighting 3v1 somewhere in the middle of the map, sometimes they just purely suck, sometimes you have only squishys…. 1v1 a thief or a cele, arriving to a losing team fight, team fight where the enemy actually targets the mesmer, getting outnumbered.. these sort of things. What would be more convincing that this is a great build than showing it can work against odds too?

messiah.1908:

pros:
more armor then zerk one
make the enemy team to use utilities, cleanse, heal early in the fight
more team player and can hold/fight on points better then zerk
great against the cele meta

I did forget to mention more armor as a bonus.

Would argue power causes enemies to heal slightly more quickly since the dmg is instant where conditions need time to work, also gs gives extra range. Faster need to cleanse obviously goes to the condition build.

I’m sceptical about holding the point too, you have 2 invis and no knockback, no melee weapon… sure the armor helps a bit but still.

Still not convinced this build is great, I’d be happy to watch a less one-sided video :p

be sure i dont win any fight and sometimes i take bad choises like staying far after 3 enemy down on mid → they will spwn to me . so you want to see me die in 1v3 . no class can or should handle 1v3 if not full bunker.

yes thief can kill me 50% of the time if he’s above average player. but in group play i have more freedom to handle him
with 5 confusion thief usually goes SR – result i want as he wont attack for few seconds
sure gs can push him back . but why handle 1v1 if i can handle 2v1 for few seconds for fast down.

it seems you want me to be in hard spot just to prove something
put a shatter mesmer or thief in 1v2 will he stay and fight ot disengage?
will shatter mesmer fight turret engi on far? – no it waste of time for him. while i can but result maybe in waste of time also. unless he is on 50% hp after using heal

you missing the point on how holding a point – my clones can do on 1v1 10-15 bleed stack , weakness, burning which push my enemy to play defense and miss some attacks with weakness. if i shatter also punish him more moving and using skills

smart d/d ele who fights me on point wont be able to still it if i am on it while he will lose time for his team so usualy they are leaving . as most of the time he will be on water for the cleanse and less on fire for the dmg

my vids are not made purly for the public rather for me to learn from my mistakes. i wont cap video for 1 month and edit it . usualy the video are from yesterday fights

MailMail.6534:

Rome.7124:

never try a condi memser build before, so I am looking forward to try this out tonight

But regardless which build, it seems thief will always be a counter. It seems this build has an advantage over shatter build in going against the meta builds of the other popular classes, which I guess that’s the main selling point, right?

Exactly. These builds allow you to take a lot of boon rip, which is the bane to a lot of the popular meta builds. And the constant sustained condition pressure overrides their defense against burst dmg mitigation.

Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either so that’s why you have a team to help you with him. Thief is always difficult, but if you can get one good Cry of Frustration burst off without them clearing it (always save this for your last shatter against thieves), that usually scares them into defense immediately.

alright, after trying this build for 2 nights doing some solo-qs and group with few casual sPvP guild buddies, this build definitely should be considered a great and viable build next to the meta shatter build for Mesmers.

I definitely die less with it, and felt like I had equal chance in beating most of the meta builds that I usually have trouble with. I did die to a very well played Cele Ele and a guardian, but I think it’s more being inexperienced with the build and some habit carried over from the double range shatter build.

Overall I think this is highly recommended alternative for people that want to explore other options for their Mesmer main in sPvP.

What still gets me all worked up is still the fights against thieves, but until ANet do something about it, I just have to accept the situation as is.

messiah.1908:

be sure i dont win any fight and sometimes i take bad choises like staying far after 3 enemy down on mid -> they will spwn to me . so you want to see me die in 1v3 . no class can or should handle 1v3 if not full bunker.

yes thief can kill me 50% of the time if he’s above average player. but in group play i have more freedom to handle him
with 5 confusion thief usually goes SR – result i want as he wont attack for few seconds
sure gs can push him back . but why handle 1v1 if i can handle 2v1 for few seconds for fast down.

it seems you want me to be in hard spot just to prove something
put a shatter mesmer or thief in 1v2 will he stay and fight ot disengage?
will shatter mesmer fight turret engi on far? – no it waste of time for him. while i can but result maybe in waste of time also. unless he is on 50% hp after using heal

you missing the point on how holding a point – my clones can do on 1v1 10-15 bleed stack , weakness, burning which push my enemy to play defense and miss some attacks with weakness. if i shatter also punish him more moving and using skills

smart d/d ele who fights me on point wont be able to still it if i am on it while he will lose time for his team so usualy they are leaving . as most of the time he will be on water for the cleanse and less on fire for the dmg

Idk if you really even read most of my reply or if it’s your English or you just missed everything I tried to say… The only things I got out of your confusing reply are using offence as defence when holding a point and overwhelming cele with conditions.

I still don’t see how you could hold a point against a decent player with this, nor how it could be better against celes than power with boon removal. Also think power is more versatile due to shatter on self.

And yes I did try to put you in a hard spot since you claim all these things (great build, great against the cele meta, bunkering, 1v1 far or close etc) without backing them up at all or explaining why it’s good in any in these things. The videos seemed very biased and clearly cut to show only the good sides of this build against half-dead opponents or while having another advantage.

However, I’ll give the build a try based on the good feedback on this thread, I really would like there to be another viable mesmer build..

here some bad games i had yesterday . bad i mean cause we lost some due to bad rotations
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3k-iiOiFLzc&feature=gp-n-y&google_comment_id=z13jipobytn4wp5bh04cdlmwulz1i5451zk0k
1v1 engi on far while moa him but not at the right moment so i almost got killed but my clones killed him while after stayed in 1v2 engi +necro so i knew i can stand on point so troll them and make them use heal, utilities and cleanse while i knew my team coming to 3v3 fast kill
you can see how engi warrior thief most of the times moving around the point while i can stand on it and contest it
2v2 on far versus mesmer and shout warrior who run to mid
right after dd ele short 1v1 till engi come for 2v1 – yes ele cleanse condi but in the mean time use all his rotations utilities to cleanse leaving him with nothing so he should have bailed out
then 2v1 versus shout warrior again doing nice 14k dmg (yes 2v1 but still example of the huge condi dmg)
then 2v2 versus 2 shout warrior (good cleanse) see how my warrior ally hardly doing any dmg to them versus mine
then example what i want to get with thief – using SR early in the fight
at the end of the vid some nice 1v1 bunkering guard on point being killed in 10 sec
last fight 1v1 versus ranger then mesmer came and got him down too – but forget to use stealth to stomp so third player came with no utilities i back off

Mirb.3749:

Also question, is the build effective for WvW roaming at all? Or is PU a better way to go you think.

From a roaming perspective, MtD shatter is just as squishy as standard full glkittenter. You can roam with it, you’ll just get eaten by thieves sometimes. I personally will always solo roam with PU, but if I’ve got a couple of people with me I’ll respec to MtD.

Just the same bad stuff as in the previous vids + 2x 1v1’s without moa….

First a zero dmg bunker guard autoattacking with staff who did not even try to dodge and just facetanks everything. Then a ranger who helpfully uses up double dodge and stone signet before even activating combat, then you do a random torch 4 which conviniently happens to blind his entangle and he proceeds to eat the whole shatter and just die…. made me laugh at least : D

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and don’t worry about the meta battle guys. They’re about a step away from the devs for knowing what’s what about the mesmer ;D

wow :P Considering nearly all metabattle PvP builds are based on major tournaments and top players, maybe it’s your understanding of the game that’s not good enough to see the reason behind the skill/trait/etc choices.

This build is fun, but in no way “Great” and that should be clear to anyone with some ranked experience who knows Conquest roles and optimal builds. The forum in general thinks that the easier a build is, the better, which indicates that most people can’t make harder builds work because they lack the experience and this lack of experience leads to many bad theorycrafting where inexperienced players encourage each other and eventually convince themselves that what they made is good.

Just my 2 cents

What still gets me all worked up is still the fights against thieves, but until ANet do something about it, I just have to accept the situation as is.

Thief vs dps shatter is a 90% lose rate. Thief versus mtd is only 60%. And because most thieves are bad, you really won’t have trouble with them once you get used to the build! This is th eonly match up besides dps guardian where you have to really time your shatters perfectly. Some exmaples against thief:

• Scepter 2 block —> shatter
• Scepter 2 block —> dodge —> shatter: if you’re feeling spunky and think it’ll connect.
• pWarlock —> dodge toward thief and past them —> Phase Retreat —> shatter: this will create clones staggered in a straight line and make it harder for thief to dodge all of the clones. This usually works as an opener against most classes btw.
• Phase retreat in melee range —> Shatter

Basically, you want to shatter when the thief doesn’t have much opportunity to evade or when he’s trying to burst you. Don’t just summon clones and then have them run a mile towards him in order to shatter, because less of your shatters will connect.

Honestly, after playing my MtD build for a few months, I can’t remember many times where a thief beat me 1v1. I think it was a condi thief though. Group fights are even better, because the thief will waste their time trying to burst you and be surprised to get a nasty condi burst in return, putting him out of the fight completely for a temporary amount of time. Now you can +1 the team fight!

Now for the other poster here who needs some feedback.

Cons:
- Lack of boon removal on shatter
- Lack of shatter on self which gives so much flexibility
- Long cooldowns on torch
- You die of old age while waiting for scepter animations
- Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking
Overall looks like the build is alright, but not great.

There’s a lot of debate on which variation of MtD is the best. I think messiah and I have been through this, but I prefer my “dominatrix” version. http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA I often switch between NullField/Arcane Thievery depending on enemy composition. I rarely switch crippling dissipation for rendering shatter if I think AOE will kill too many clones (I’ve only found this to be a problem with a lot of dps guards on enemy team), but I honestly don’t have many issues with this, because I know how to shatter. lol This, however, can be argued as the weakest point of my build compared to other MtD builds going into Chaos.

You stop enemies from having any boons ever. The long CD on torch doesn’t matter. Prestige is used to set up other shatters, heal or simply get better position while the conditions tick. pMage is shatter fodder. If one of his attacks hits, thank Lyssa for her blessing of luck and move on.

In terms of scepter, you shouldn’t be on it longer than the cd for switching weapons. It’s purely to shatter. Staff is when you shatter a bit slower and let your cloens AA them to death. If you’re in a team fight not being focused, do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

I’m trying to be respectful here, but this is a very foolish thing to count as a “con”. It’s not just you, but many people have said this, so maybe I’m just frustrated hearing this ridiculous statement. Let me ask you a question: if a player isn’t moving and a player isn’t using any skills, in what state is he most likely in? No no, not the downstate darling, he’s probably dead.

Rhetorical questions aside, confusion/torment is a soft lockdown that is HIGHLY effective in the right hands. It’s really the most polite way to kill your opponent, because you’re giving them the choice on how they’d like to die. Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything. The latter essentially means you’re you’ve locked an opponent down to the point where you can temporarily +1 a fight or get extra dmg off of him via another player. Please explain to me how this isn’t a pro, because I’m confused now.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

This is just factually wrong. GS’ AA attack encourages the player to be further away to do more damage. The knockback on GS5 essentially screams “GET OUT OF MELEE RANGE”. The cripple on pBerserker synergies with keeping enemies at bay and unable to reach melee range in the first place. So there’s nothing really Melee about GS except for maybe Mirror Blade.

Fay.2357:

Mirb.3749:

Also question, is the build effective for WvW roaming at all? Or is PU a better way to go you think.

From a roaming perspective, MtD shatter is just as squishy as standard full glkittenter. You can roam with it, you’ll just get eaten by thieves sometimes. I personally will always solo roam with PU, but if I’ve got a couple of people with me I’ll respec to MtD.

I have to disagree with you here.
A mix of dire/rabid and guard buffs puts you with 2700 armor and +21k of health, while a viable burst power shatter barely goes beyond 2200 armor and 18k of health with guard stacks.
Also, power shatter requires being more in melee, and you end up eating a lot of damage, while condi shatter is more about do your burst and get out waiting for torment and confusion to do their job.
And thieves, I find the easiest class to fight, unless they bring those perma stealth builds, which you spend 90% of the time waiting for them to pop, and you end up losing due to a mistake.

Even a semi lockdown-shatter build I designed was more squishy than mtd shatter. Double ranged 0/4/4/0/6 and about 2600 armor, but had much more troubles surviving thief bursts.

Of course, PU will always be more tankier than any other build, but doing things with PU takes much more time, which end up hurting your performance as a roamer (not dueler).

witcher.3197:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and don’t worry about the meta battle guys. They’re about a step away from the devs for knowing what’s what about the mesmer ;D

wow :P Considering nearly all metabattle PvP builds are based on major tournaments and top players, maybe it’s your understanding of the game that’s not good enough to see the reason behind the skill/trait/etc choices.

This build is fun, but in no way “Great” and that should be clear to anyone with some ranked experience who knows Conquest roles and optimal builds. The forum in general thinks that the easier a build is, the better, which indicates that most people can’t make harder builds work because they lack the experience and this lack of experience leads to many bad theorycrafting where inexperienced players encourage each other and eventually convince themselves that what they made is good.

Just my 2 cents

Don’t take the comment to seriously.

MailMail.6534:

Now for the other poster here who needs some feedback.

do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

I’m trying to be respectful here, but this is a very foolish thing to count as a “con”. It’s not just you, but many people have said this, so maybe I’m just frustrated hearing this ridiculous statement. Let me ask you a question: if a player isn’t moving and a player isn’t using any skills, in what state is he most likely in? No no, not the downstate darling, he’s probably dead.

Rhetorical questions aside, confusion/torment is a soft lockdown that is HIGHLY effective in the right hands. It’s really the most polite way to kill your opponent, because you’re giving them the choice on how they’d like to die. Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything. The latter essentially means you’re you’ve locked an opponent down to the point where you can temporarily +1 a fight or get extra dmg off of him via another player. Please explain to me how this isn’t a pro, because I’m confused now.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

This is just factually wrong. GS’ AA attack encourages the player to be further away to do more damage. The knockback on GS5 essentially screams “GET OUT OF MELEE RANGE”. The cripple on pBerserker synergies with keeping enemies at bay and unable to reach melee range in the first place. So there’s nothing really Melee about GS except for maybe Mirror Blade.

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

Wile.5024:

MailMail.6534:

Now for the other poster here who needs some feedback.

do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

Torment and confusion partly rely on enemy stupidly moving or attacking

I’m trying to be respectful here, but this is a very foolish thing to count as a “con”. It’s not just you, but many people have said this, so maybe I’m just frustrated hearing this ridiculous statement. Let me ask you a question: if a player isn’t moving and a player isn’t using any skills, in what state is he most likely in? No no, not the downstate darling, he’s probably dead.

Rhetorical questions aside, confusion/torment is a soft lockdown that is HIGHLY effective in the right hands. It’s really the most polite way to kill your opponent, because you’re giving them the choice on how they’d like to die. Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything. The latter essentially means you’re you’ve locked an opponent down to the point where you can temporarily +1 a fight or get extra dmg off of him via another player. Please explain to me how this isn’t a pro, because I’m confused now.

Also as a side note: power gs is more or less a melee weapon

This is just factually wrong. GS’ AA attack encourages the player to be further away to do more damage. The knockback on GS5 essentially screams “GET OUT OF MELEE RANGE”. The cripple on pBerserker synergies with keeping enemies at bay and unable to reach melee range in the first place. So there’s nothing really Melee about GS except for maybe Mirror Blade.

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back.

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite.

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

Ansau.7326:

Of course, PU will always be more tankier than any other build, but doing things with PU takes much more time, which end up hurting your performance as a roamer (not dueler).

The squishyness of MtD is not only designated by stats, but also by the mechanics of the build. Yes, I’m also comparing to PU condie, so everything is squishy by comparison.

Doing stuff with PU doesn’t take more time at all though, that’s extremely incorrect. You can flip camps/kill guards just as fast as MtD with PU condie. Guards might be slightly slower, but camps won’t have an appreciable change as long as you’re LoSing them into a corner for aoe (which you need to do with both builds for an efficient camp flip).

Wile.5024:

Just the same bad stuff as in the previous vids + 2x 1v1’s without moa….

First a zero dmg bunker guard autoattacking with staff who did not even try to dodge and just facetanks everything. Then a ranger who helpfully uses up double dodge and stone signet before even activating combat, then you do a random torch 4 which conviniently happens to blind his entangle and he proceeds to eat the whole shatter and just die…. made me laugh at least : D

i really dont know what you trying to prove
you want me to fight the elite players and die no matter what build i use
i guess you will too so thus it make your build less effective and theirs better

if i play against good player and fought for 2 min . its a situation you really dont want to be in tpvp as you hardly helpful to your team no matter what build you use

mtd variant is solid build and with the right group composition can be effective as the power shatter.

maybe in higher tier not yet because the meta evolve around power atm
but when you can stack above 25 then we will see players working together

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well! – hard fight indead

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back. and flip them back again or cleanse and start over

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite. dont stay in range versus ranger

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

pls stand for 5 sec letting my 3 staff clones hit you for 10 bleed burning poison
2k dps for 5 sec is 10k dmg then if you cleanse shatter on you for 6-9 confusion again and torment all over again

mtd while can do 1v1, in tpvp i think its made more for group play 2v2 3v3 etc
the staff clones can spread conditions and boons vigor and might

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

I dislike it when people leave out certain parts of a quote that gives context to a statement. You did exactly this in order to somehow prove a point that scepter has issues as a weapon which is something I haven’t even disagreed about. Bolded is the part you left out.

If you’re in a team fight not being focused, do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts. Scepter isn’t a great weapon but it works great in this build.

If you aren’t being focused in a team fight and you have time to cast Confusing Images, ~900 confusing dmg on skill use is nothing to be underestimated. I stand my ground here.

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

Ok, so here’s one fundamental thing you’re forgetting about MtD “burst”: you have access to more than 1 burst. Let’s look at our “burst” skills in MtD:

• F1
• F2 (this is arguably our “burst”)
• F3 (but wait, this procs a lot of vuln as well, which adds up; maybe this is our burst!)
• Scepter 2 (8s CD for 8.5k max @ 10s? enough said)
• Scepter 3 (generally unreliable, but not to be underestimated)
• Multiple Clones Staff AA-ing

So no, while your enemy is twiddling his thumbs wasting his time not attacking, it’s giving me time to set up another one of my bursts. I mean, do you think that after I burst him, I’m just staring at him not doing anything? lol And if he stops and condi clears, that’s exactly what I want him to do, because I have more conditions coming right at him soon enough. Also, I speak for myself when I say the duration on torment is not short. My torment lasts 8 seconds. If enemy waits this period out, that’s long enough for another Phase Retreat, Scepter 2 AND a dodge.

More over, let’s say that silly situation happens for whatever reason. You have stealth, Blink, chaos armor and chaos storm to mitigate any counter this imaginary enemy has up his sleeves after not playing the game for 8 seconds waiting for conditions to clear.

The scenario above that you imagined in order to make MtD seem disadvantaged is simply that: imaginary.

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Comparing to dps shatter? Why exactly are we comparing them? That’s counter productive. I think it goes without saying that they do very similar things offensively/defensively at insanely different velocities.

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

This is a good point. I’ve seen people get real kitteny and get all up in the face of a Mesmer using GS. That’s usually the way to counter GS, but the Mirror Blade —> Shatter combo is VERY dangerous and can be instant kill like you suggest. I guess in a way, you’re right. My opinion however is that more often than not, you will do better ranged on GS. The animation on Mirror Blade is obvious, and I would be expecting a shatter burst.

messiah.1908:

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

If they are using carrion on the other hand, stay ranged and kite, since they will be squishy as a kitten

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well! – hard fight indead

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back. and flip them back again or cleanse and start over

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite. dont stay in range versus ranger

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

pls stand for 5 sec letting my 3 staff clones hit you for 10 bleed burning poison
2k dps for 5 sec is 10k dmg then if you cleanse shatter on you for 6-9 confusion again and torment all over again

mtd while can do 1v1, in tpvp i think its made more for group play 2v2 3v3 etc
the staff clones can spread conditions and boons vigor and might

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

StickerHappy.8052:

I agree with everything you said. 5 stacks in 3 seconds is a joke. Prybar is 5 stacks with 1 hit. easier to land, and hard to avoid too because it looks like a normal wrench AA.

And dude you should clarify this fact:

The majority of our confusion sources are unreliable vs other classes’ application

Idk how this turned into comparing our confusion capabilities to other classes, because that’s a moot point and Off Topic. Our confusion application is horrible. Everyone knows that. The point is, confusion in a MtD build IS decent. I have shatter confusion at 5.5 seconds doing 171/skill/stack. That’s nothing to scoff at.

I dueled a lot of MtD mesmers in the past,key to torment and confusion? stand still, since they are using rabid, everything hits like a wet noodle.

Ok, and while you’re sitting there, I’ll just keep throwing conditions at you. So are you going to sit still the entire match or nah? I mean, that’s cool with me. But when do you exactly attack? lol Oh wait, you’ve been sitting still so long that Staff AA burns/bleeds have downed you. I really don’t understand this argument. Standing still mitigates a lot of dmg from torment, but judging a build based purely off of duels is a VERY short sighted form of theory crafting.

Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!Mes vs Mes? Soak up 15 stacks of torment and AT it back, generosity does a great job as well!

First off, if you’re dueling and creating a build to counter someone else, then it’s like ok what’s the point? I might as well put a settler’s rune on me. Second, not many Mesmer run AT, so you won’t encounter this often during queues. Lastly, I DO run AT somewhat often so AT vs AT. Get at me.

Necro vs Mes? Flip the condies back.

This can be scary, but isn’t the worst thing ever if you know you’re facing a Necro. lol Necros don’t have a lot of boons necessary to rip with Null/AT+pDisenchanter (which is what I run), so I usually save these for condi clear instead of boon rip. Not a problem.

Ranger vs Mes? Pew pew in range and kite.

Omg so you’re actually not going to stand still and not attack?! It only takes one shatter to make a Pew Pew Ranger shrivel up and get scared. MI, Prestige and Blink ensure that you can get in close enough to do some dmg. This is a pretty interesting fight though. Ranger has better chance against this if he’s condi.

So yeah, are you talking about purely duels, Sticker, because that’s a whole other ball game, and also a place that MtD can shine in against MANY classes/builds.

StickerHappy.8052:

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

I think you’re confused about how MtD works. Here’s the general strategy:

Staff:

• Use AA clones to rack up dmg and buff allies.
• Dmg mitigation from enemy burst attacks (chaos armor, chaos storm and more chaos armor)
• Shatter sparingly. It’s like the sprinkles on top of the sundae that is your auto attack.

Scepter/Torch:

• Shatter shatter shatter
• If an opening arises, use Confusing Images. Pray to Lyssa that it connects.
• Summon pMage. Pray to Lyssa harder that it connects. Shatter that kitten anyway.
• Switch back to Staff ASAP!!!

StickerHappy.8052:

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

The fact that mtd focuses on shatters doesn’t mean you are forced to shatter every time you have clones.

One of the beauties of mtd shatter is that you can switch you playstyle to a more relaxed and PU mechanic and still be able to put a lot of pressure.

Ansau.7326:

StickerHappy.8052:

How can you have 3 staff clones for 5 secs, if you play a shatter build? so might as well do a regular condi build without MtD if you say standing still will kill me?

The fact that mtd focuses on shatters doesn’t mean you are forced to shatter every time you have clones.

One of the beauties of mtd shatter is that you can switch you playstyle to a more relaxed and PU mechanic and still be able to put a lot of pressure.

As you say, it’s really the exact same dynamic as with a standard power shatter build. After your burst, it’s not like you stand around twiddling your thumbs for 12 seconds before you can burst again. You continue to apply pressure from various attacks and phantasms in particular.

When using maim shatter, you don’t shatter and then just thumb your nose at whoever you were fighting. Every autoattack you have applies some spread of conditions, clones will do it too, you’ve got multiple attacks that apply conditions; there’s tons of mechanics that you can leverage to continue fighting in-between bursts.

MailMail.6534:

I dislike it when people leave out certain parts of a quote that gives context to a statement. You did exactly this in order to somehow prove a point that scepter has issues as a weapon which is something I haven’t even disagreed about. Bolded is the part you left out.

5 stacks of confusion during 3 seconds is not “burst” by any stretch of the imagination. I left nothing out.

MailMail.6534:

The damage difference between two cases is HUGE, that is why I listed torment and confusion as unreliable.

Comparing to dps shatter? Why exactly are we comparing them? That’s counter productive. I think it goes without saying that they do very similar things offensively/defensively at insanely different velocities.

I was comparing situations where a player with torment and confusion recklessly attacks and moves to a situation where he does not.

MailMail.6534:

Ok, so here’s one fundamental thing you’re forgetting about MtD “burst”: you have access to more than 1 burst.

So no, while your enemy is twiddling his thumbs wasting his time not attacking, it’s giving me time to set up another one of my bursts. I mean, do you think that after I burst him, I’m just staring at him not doing anything? lol And if he stops and condi clears, that’s exactly what I want him to do, because I have more conditions coming right at him soon enough. Also, I speak for myself when I say the duration on torment is not short. My torment lasts 8 seconds. If enemy waits this period out, that’s long enough for another Phase Retreat, Scepter 2 AND a dodge.

More over, let’s say that silly situation happens for whatever reason. You have stealth, Blink, chaos armor and chaos storm to mitigate any counter this imaginary enemy has up his sleeves after not playing the game for 8 seconds waiting for conditions to clear.

The scenario above that you imagined in order to make MtD seem disadvantaged is simply that: imaginary.

Yes you have multiple shatters but you can not instantly spawn ready to shatter clones next to the enemy indefinitely.

If you think good players just stand still when you send more clones and eat shatters, you’re sadly mistaken. You list some of your defences, enemies don’t know how to use any of these? I never mentioned waiting out torment either, I was talking about massive stacks of confusion which even when traited for +33% duration only last 4 seconds. Dodging doesn’t count as a skill activation either.

Maybe at the skill lvl you play and the kind of enemies you face, enemy actually using his/her brain is indeed imaginary.

Wile.5024:

Ok first I wouldn’t call 5 stacks of confusion applied slowly in 3 seconds a burst, it’s horrible. Even better the skill gets easily canceled if you’re not facing the enemy properly + the LAZOR animation is clearly visible and therefore easy to counter.

You’re right, confusing images isn’t a burst skill. It’s a semi-unreliable application simply because of the very long casting animation. However, it’s simultaneously a fantastic tool for baiting defensive cooldowns. Because it’s so blindingly obvious that you’re using it, people love to dodge/block/avoid it, and you can exploit that fact. When people use cooldowns to avoid a couple stacks of confusion, that means they’re not using cooldowns to avoid the burst that you can produce immediately afterwards.

Wile.5024:

Let’s imagine a situation where you’ve successfully bursted someone with for example 6 stacks of torment and 9 confusion… what does a decent enemy do in this situation? Does he keep autoattacking and running? Answer: he knows you’ve just spent your main burst, you don’t have clones up, he would stop and condicleanse before doing anything else. If he doesn’t have condicleanse he would possibly wait for the 9 stacks of confusion to go away since the duration is really short.

The confusion is really just an incidental bit of bonus damage. Consider it an idiot tax. If someone happens to spam a bunch of skills, they’ll just keel over and die, but that damage isn’t by any means essential to the proper functioning of the build.

The torment, on the other hand, is not something that can be ignored. It has a base duration of 6 seconds, increasing to 7.2 seconds with just 20 points in domination or 9.6 seconds with included 40% food (WvW obviously). This is a very significant amount of time. If they choose to simply stand there and not move or use skills, several things will happen.

1. You get to set up clones however and wherever you want, preloading your next shatter
2. You get to freely apply any and all conditions you can in this time (burn/bleed from staff auto, poison from doom/chaos storm)
3. Your friendly neighborhood thief notices someone standing perfectly still and using no skills, and eats them

Saying that ‘standing still and using no skills for the duration of the conditions’ is a counter is incredibly disingenuous. If every time you burst, everyone that you hit (this is an aoe burst) stands still and takes no actions for 7-9 seconds…you just single-handedly deleted half of the enemy team from the game for the duration of those skills.

Wile.5024:

Idk how you play power but gs melee shatter has the potential to instantly kill a zerk player from full hp. Sure you can (and you should) shoot beams and drop izerkers from distance but the main burst is melee range => that’s why I said it’s more or less a melee weapon

The fact that a weapon is useful for a melee burst doesn’t make it a melee weapon. Using that logic, offhand sword is a 1200 range weapon because you can summon the swordsman at 1200 range and let it go chase people down. Due to bounce mechanics, mirror blade lends itself to a melee burst. Literally every other skill on the weapon either has no inherent bias towards a given range or has a significant bias towards maximum range. The auto amps up in damage as you go farther away, iZerker is a cripple, and iWave is a strong knockback.