Guild Wars 2

Thanks for that tag-in, pyro. #WorldWrestlingFederation I’ll tag back in now.

5 stacks of confusion during 3 seconds is not “burst” by any stretch of the imagination. I left nothing out.

And I’ll repeat, ~900 dmg on skill use may not be burst to you, but it eats people alive in team fights.

Maybe at the skill lvl you play and the kind of enemies you face, enemy actually using his/her brain is indeed imaginary.

Did someone just throw some major shade at me or am I just chilly? When I’m training one particular guild in pvp, I tend to face weaker enemies. Ironically, I lose more, because my teammates aren’t as good. When I’m with my pvp friends, we face very strong coordinated enemies. And I’m talking about 5 man teams vs 5 man teams. A lot of people tell me I’m “good” on my “cheesy PU builds” like this or my signet build (it amazes me that even mid tier players still equate PU with every condi Mes build). I would never be pompous enough to say such a thing about myself. I will, however, say that I do very well when I play with my pvp friends.

I was comparing situations where a player with torment and confusion recklessly attacks and moves to a situation where he does not.

And once again, I reiterate: when a person is not moving or recklessly attacking he’s still taking dmg from my other attacks AND allowing me to apply more torment/confusion on him when he’s finally ready to attack again.

I’d like to get this thread back on track, because it seems like these latest arguments are focusing a lot on ideal 1v1 fights. Let’s make another thread, and I’ll argue why MtD is also good there. But to be back on topic, I think messiah and others make a fantastic case why MtD is great in tpvp.

Like I mentioned before, Condi shatter does similar things that dps shatter does both offensively and defensively, but at wildly different velocities. Here’s some comparisons between the two.

• Dps has a much higher burst overall. There’s more build up for condi shatters. You can turn the tide of a fight much quicker with dps. You can with condi as well, but slower.
• You’re less susceptible to conditions and outright dmg with condi shatter. God forbid an ele burns you on dps shatter. LOL gg
• Slightly more on-point fighting capabilities with condi shatter.
• More utility to support allies with condi shatter (pDisenchanter, Null Field, blasting Chaos armor with Prestige, etc). You can even take portal.
• Less on demand safety with Distrotion due to no Illusionary Person.
• During 1v1s, you can add just as much pressure as dps shatter overall, but with less risk of getting ganked, allowing teammates to come support you.
• More boon rip potential via utilities. You shatter more often with condi shatter, so you’re ripping more boons over a period of time.

The confusion is really just an incidental bit of bonus damage. Consider it an idiot tax.

How I’ll be referring to confusion in my MtD builds from now on. Thanks! \(^_^)/

MailMail.6534:

Thanks for that tag-in, pyro. #WorldWrestlingFederation I’ll tag back in now.

I too want to tag in as I read Wile’s responses but given the rinse and repeat, working step by step through the points would be akin to self harm. But what I do want to point out is that it’s very easy to say something like “5 stacks of confusion and 6 of torment is easy to counter for a pro player by standing still” etc, but the reality of a PvP match is that you’re never going to be faced with the sort of perfect scenarios Wile keeps offering for his counter argument as to the supposed weakness of this MtD shatter build. Generally speaking Wile’s arguments have been weak, and his request for “proof” video unreasonable, and inherently flawed in the reasoning. The scoffing at the use of Moa was a big give away.

The thing is, Maim shatter is not a new concept to the community, nor its strength within the meta unknown. It became apparent the moment MtD got its buff. The only new development was the effort to get that strength recognized on Metabattle which was what came down the pipe line with this build thread, build link, and build video.

Fay.2357:

You’re right, confusing images isn’t a burst skill. However, it’s simultaneously a fantastic tool for baiting defensive cooldowns.

Glad someone finally agreed. Yeah I can see it working as a bait, I still think it’s underpowered.

Fay.2357:

The confusion is really just an incidental bit of bonus damage. Consider it an idiot tax.

The torment, on the other hand, is not something that can be ignored. Saying that ‘standing still and using no skills for the duration of the conditions’ is a counter is incredibly disingenuous.

Idiot tax is a good term for the confusion, it’s also what I’ve been saying about confusion all along.

You’ve got what I said about torment wrong, I never said you should stand still and wait for torment duration to run out (unless you have low hp and really no other choice). For the third time if hit with 6+ stacks of torment, what I said was: STOP AND CONDICLEANSE .

Fay.2357:

1. You get to set up clones however and wherever you want, preloading your next shatter
2. You get to freely apply any and all conditions you can in this time (burn/bleed from staff auto, poison from doom/chaos storm)
3. Your friendly neighborhood thief notices someone standing perfectly still and using no skills, and eats them

You, like these other fanboys on the thread, see everything so black and white.

1. Most condicleanses in the game take less than a second to cast (or even instant) which doesn’t give you a lot of time (or none).
2. Enemy would dodge and take some torment dmg if the option would be to take way more dmg from another source
3. Enemy would use a defensive skill and take some confusion dmg if the option would be to take way more dmg from another source
4. Dodging doesn’t proc confusion dmg
5. Confusion has a short duration

Let’s take a look at the torment description:

“If the victim is moving, they take twice the amount of damage they would while stationary.”

It’s like everyone here thinks that every player hit by torment will always take DOUBLE dmg in every situation. Idiot tax applies here too.

Fay.2357:

The fact that a weapon is useful for a melee burst doesn’t make it a melee weapon.

I guess it’s a matter of preference. Personally, I like to categorize stuff by their main function.

MailMail.6534:

I’d like to get this thread back on track, because it seems like these latest arguments are focusing a lot on ideal 1v1 fights. Let’s make another thread, and I’ll argue why MtD is also good there. But to be back on topic, I think messiah and others make a fantastic case why MtD is great in tpvp.

1v1’s are a huge part of tpvp, also my favorite part of it. And I think messiah made a horrible case why this build is great, the original post was a bunch of biased and one-sided fights.

MailMail.6534:

• You’re less susceptible to conditions
• Slightly more on-point fighting capabilities with condi shatter.
• More utility to support allies with condi shatter
• More boon rip potential via utilities. You shatter more often with condi shatter, so you’re ripping more boons over a period of time.

These are debatable, the rest I agree on. Power shatter can also drop stun breaks and take more team utility, condicleanse or boon removal. Also traits can vary like with the build variation you provided earlier.

On-point fighting is a bit of a question mark too if talking about the build op provided… no melee weapon, no knockback, 2x invisibilities, no boonstrip, no distortion or diversion without clones. It does have 1 block, weakness on clone death and more armor. Maybe they’re about the same, both relatively bad at on-point fighting.

Ross Biddle.2367:

witcher.3197:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and don’t worry about the meta battle guys. They’re about a step away from the devs for knowing what’s what about the mesmer ;D

wow :P Considering nearly all metabattle PvP builds are based on major tournaments and top players, maybe it’s your understanding of the game that’s not good enough to see the reason behind the skill/trait/etc choices.

This build is fun, but in no way “Great” and that should be clear to anyone with some ranked experience who knows Conquest roles and optimal builds. The forum in general thinks that the easier a build is, the better, which indicates that most people can’t make harder builds work because they lack the experience and this lack of experience leads to many bad theorycrafting where inexperienced players encourage each other and eventually convince themselves that what they made is good.

Just my 2 cents

Don’t take the comment to seriously.

It’s not only about you, it’s about most of the profession forum people in general. The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them (or simply because they are too hipster to use popular builds) and then theorycraft their horrible builds and have an orgasm even from watching a hotjoin killshot video. These people will never get good at the game with their current mentality and most good players left this place a long long time ago because they realized they can’t do reasoning with people who are blinded by their devotion to some specs.

Wile.5024:

You, like these other fanboys on the thread, see everything so black and white.

You, like other haters, see everything so black and white…

…at least if it is about trying to make a point why a build is bad. For the arguments why a build is good, suddenly everything is one huge grey-area, downplaying (or simply ignoring) all the points that would clearly qualify as “white”.

Wile.5024:

These are debatable, the rest I agree on. Power shatter can also drop stun breaks and take more team utility, condicleanse or boon removal. Also traits can vary like with the build variation you provided earlier.

I’d argue that the traits for power-shatter are way less flexible than those for condi-shatter. At least if you still want to bring anything to the table with power-shatter. If you don’t go 4/4/0/0/6 with power-shatter in PvP, you might as well just reroll Thief or pewpew-Ranger even. Or power-Necro if you like the AoE. With condi-shatter, 4 points are kinda flexible and you can still contribute in a meaningful way.

Wile.5024:

On-point fighting is a bit of a question mark too if talking about the build op provided… no melee weapon, no knockback, 2x invisibilities, no boonstrip, no distortion or diversion without clones. It does have 1 block, weakness on clone death and more armor. Maybe they’re about the same, both relatively bad at on-point fighting.

No melee weapon? Scepter 2 is best triggered in melee-range, and staff hurts the most in that range (or slightly outside of it) as well. No knockback… yeah, but that’s a minor inconvenience and mostly noticeable if a Thief goes into shadow refuge. You do have a nice fear if you use nightmare runes, though. Makes them run off-point too and can even save you a stunbreak at times. 2 stealths? Well, torch 4 yes. I personally do use moa as an elite and mirror images, blink and mantra of resolve as utilities. So only one stealth for me, and I normally do not use that one in a 1vs1 on point. With that being said; if you stay in melee-range (read: on point) with power-shatter for longer than your burst, you’ll be dead as soon as something sneezes at you. With condi-shatter, you can stay on point much much longer.

When i do my maim build. I usually open it up with Torch 4, mirror images, dodge while switching to staff and spamming a shatter (Mostly f2). Then smack down Staff 2 and staff 3 to get ready for a (f3 shatter).

Glad to see more maim players in the game though! Hoping we dont get nerfed randomly for any random reasons cause this condi shatte rplaystyle is just to good x3.

1v1’s are a huge part of tpvp, also my favorite part of it. And I think messiah made a horrible case why this build is great, the original post was a bunch of biased and one-sided fights.

Again, we can go toe to toe on why this build is a great dueler as well, but I think that would be slightly off topic. The fact is that duels shouldn’t be a common thing in tpvp if you’re doing it right. This will happen to your home-point guard at times and maybe a roamer assaulting far. My only point here is that condi shatter will typically have the advantage due to survivability. Long enough where support can come.

These are debatable, the rest I agree on. Power shatter can also drop stun breaks and take more team utility, condicleanse or boon removal. Also traits can vary like with the build variation you provided earlier.

Power shatter is VERY inflexible. The traits are not debatable in the current meta: 4/4/0/0/6 or gtfo. Utilities are pretty much similar. You take Portal/Blink/Decoy. If you’re not in a team, you have one space open for MoR. PDisenchanter is not advised here, and Null Field has a high CD and is less on demand. Again, condi builds can afford these utilities because they survive longer and are in less dire danger.

The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them

You say “optimal builds” as though there are many out there for Mesmer. LOL don’t kid yourself, darling! The fact is there is only one optimal build. It’s called dps shatter. Some would argue CI lockdown is one as well. I see potential in Maim though we haven’t seen enough results with it.

Saturn.6591:

Wile.5024:

You, like these other fanboys on the thread, see everything so black and white.

You, like other haters, see everything so black and white…

…at least if it is about trying to make a point why a build is bad. For the arguments why a build is good, suddenly everything is one huge grey-area, downplaying (or simply ignoring) all the points that would clearly qualify as “white”.

Every reply I made has been backed up with reasoning, facts and personal experience… I’ve even used examples to make my points valid.

If I’m indeed a hater this is because ppl on this thread constantly claim OP’s build is the best thing ever,without any arguments or reasoning. These are just some of the stuff that has been said:

-great against the cele meta, bunkering, 1v1 far or close
-Maim does well against most builds except for cele warrior, but the cele war won’t be able to kill you either
- I’ve played double ranged shatter too for a bit, but I find that I can do so much more with MtD and I also contribute much more to the team.
- smart d/d ele who fights me on point wont be able to still it if i am on it
-Thief vs dps shatter is a 90% lose rate. Thief versus mtd is only 60%.
- do NOT underestimate the burst on Confusing Images, because it rekts
- Either they smash keys and kill themselves (warriors, rangers and thieves) or they sit there not doing anything.

You see, when I read this kind of stuff it makes me sad. I look at the build and to me it looks like an average-good build with situational usefulness. I proceed to explain why I think it is not that great and point out several downsides which make it less viable than shatter. Then get contradicted by ppl who did not even bother to read what I wrote carefully or just lack understanding of mesmer or pvp in general.

Maybe instead of actually explaining my views I should have just written it like witcher did:

witcher.3197:

This build is fun, but in no way “Great” and that should be clear to anyone with some ranked experience who knows Conquest roles and optimal builds. The forum in general thinks that the easier a build is, the better, which indicates that most people can’t make harder builds work because they lack the experience and this lack of experience leads to many bad theorycrafting where inexperienced players encourage each other and eventually convince themselves that what they made is good.

The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them (or simply because they are too hipster to use popular builds) and then theorycraft their horrible builds and have an orgasm even from watching a hotjoin killshot video. These people will never get good at the game with their current mentality and most good players left this place a long long time ago because they realized they can’t do reasoning with people who are blinded by their devotion to some specs.

witcher.3197:

It’s not only about you, it’s about most of the profession forum people in general. The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them (or simply because they are too hipster to use popular builds) and then theorycraft their horrible builds and have an orgasm even from watching a hotjoin killshot video. These people will never get good at the game with their current mentality and most good players left this place a long long time ago because they realized they can’t do reasoning with people who are blinded by their devotion to some specs.

Listen to this guy right here.

2 funny things:
- A lot of meta builds around all game modes have emerged from profession forums. Yet some talk about people on these forums being noobs, just cause they don’t follow meta. Well, some of these profession forum fanboys have CREATED meta.
Funny how much credit people give to metabattle when it has been around for only some months while the game is +2.5 years old, and a lot of those builds were created way before… Even some “meta builds” lose easily or perform worse than “good builds”, specially in WvW section.

- Wile, while I respect your arguments, and some of them might be true, it seems you’re giving much more credit at your thoughts rather than other people experiences with this build.
All you’ve said is: To me it looks like, I think, I suppose, this build would not work because meta is this… All conditionals and ideas. While other people bring arguments based on experience on both pvp and wvw.

Haven’t played it in pvp yet, but for roaming is quite strong, even being able to win outnumbered fights win some easiness.

phokus.8934:

witcher.3197:

It’s not only about you, it’s about most of the profession forum people in general. The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them (or simply because they are too hipster to use popular builds) and then theorycraft their horrible builds and have an orgasm even from watching a hotjoin killshot video. These people will never get good at the game with their current mentality and most good players left this place a long long time ago because they realized they can’t do reasoning with people who are blinded by their devotion to some specs.

Listen to this guy right here.

Yeah, I thought the description fit himself perfectly. Go figure the irony!

Forum arguing in hyperbole and fictional situations…nothing else to see here, move along!

OP made his point and did a good job backing it up. It’s a free game so you’re free to disagree and continue to underestimate MtD Shatter.

All I know is that I’m seeing a ton less Condie clearing in WvW then I did in ranked arenas, and it’s a barrel of fun solo roaming there in an MtD build. It’s loads more survivable then P-Shatter vs. bad-to-medium skilled Thieves, while I agree against good ones it often only delays the inevitable (but usually significantly!). The problem with P-Shatter and Thieves is that even mediocre ones can crap all over you and win 75% of the time or more.

I have fought good Thieves for upwards of 2-3 minutes at times, and I no longer get nearly insta-gibbed like I often do with P-Shatter. It’s definitely an uphill battle that I’m often going to lose, but as someone else said above it’s about 60% vs. 90% loss rate. I can also disengage much more easily because I can put some Torment on the Thief and stop him from chasing me down while I make my escape.

played 10 solo unranked games today to test this build, 2x 4v5s .. counting those out won 7/8 games! The same result I would have gotten with dps shatter. Sometimes seeing someone with 11 stacks of torment is fun, so is seeing him/her trying to disengage without cleansing the conditions…. but is it a great build, comparable to power shatter in effectiveness?

Some thoughts, – +:

- 16k hp with some extra armor = as squishy as dps shatter
- Good players dodge scepter 2 EVERY time when they see “block” appear
- Horrible chase potential due to slow projectiles (in case of disengage: torment stacks caused before fleeing don’t count… if you used the same logic to dps the enemy would already be dead before fleeing)
- Horrible max range fighting due to slow projectiles
- Need to be in close proximity to setup clones for good shatter
- LAZOR is terrible
- Bad for stomping
- Bad for on-demand interrupt
- No boon remove shatter OR no clone death (1 of these)
- Enemy having AoE condicleanse in team fights is a huge problem

I also felt that team utility was slightly worse than with power shatter since the build is lacking in ressing, stomping and interrupt potential.

+ Clone death OR boon removal is great (1 of these)
+ Multiple torrent stacks possibly on multiple targets are nice
+ Slightly more trait options
+ Torch worked surprisingly well

Also many ppl here have been saying it’s better against thieves, I have to disagree… you have the same issues with clones not being able to keep up with the thief and most of our abilities need a target. There’s actually even less AoE than with power. The higher armor is offset by lower hp. What makes this build WORSE than dps shatter against thieves is shatter on self and the lack of knockback. The fight is often decided in split seconds and the shatter EXACTLY when you need it the most is a life saver. 1 shatter on self daze can turn a bad situation completely around.

During 1v1’s on point, enemies did force me off the point a couple of times causing me to lose the point. I did not notice this build to be any better at holding points. I did win all of the 1v1 encounters… though I’m sure I would have done the same with power also.

Mostly the build worked like I thought it would work, even did a good job at times. It’s definitely slower and easier to play than dps shatter too. A decent build but definitely a tier below the double ranged shatter.

Keep in mind I’m talking about just pvp, I have no interest in how pve(wvw) side of the game works.

This is a fairly reasonable assessment. However, there are a couple things here that need to be addressed.

Wile.5024:

- Good players dodge scepter 2 EVERY time when they see “block” appear

Good players use scepter 2 intelligently to force other players to eat the torment. Possibilities include…

• Blocking a channeled/multihit skill, causing the other player to choose between losing damage and eating torment
• Blocking from stealth
• Blocking an animation-locked skill
• Blocking on an aoe to lower the required dodge reaction time
• Blocking after baiting dodges with various skills

Wile.5024:

- Horrible chase potential due to slow projectiles (in case of disengage: torment stacks caused before fleeing don’t count… if you used the same logic to dps the enemy would already be dead before fleeing)

Why are you chasing? If you’re chasing someone around from point to point, you’re doing it wrong. If someone attacking your point ran away, then you just did your job well. If someone guarding a point you’re attacking just ran away, mission accomplished.

Wile.5024:

- Horrible max range fighting due to slow projectiles
- Need to be in close proximity to setup clones for good shatter

While power shatter has better long range pressure, the close range clone setup is common to both.

Wile.5024:

- LAZOR is terrible

Similar to the torment block, confusing images is a fantastic skill if you apply just a tiny bit of brainpower to figuring out intelligent ways of using it.

Wile.5024:

- Bad for stomping

There’s nothing wrong with this build for stomping. You don’t have IP distortion, but you’ve got quite a few other ways to protect your stomps.

Wile.5024:

- Bad for on-demand interrupt

So is power shatter, unless the interrupted person happens to be directly on top of you.

Wile.5024:

- No boon remove shatter OR no clone death (1 of these)

Debilitating dissipation is 100% unnecessary. You shouldn’t be letting all your clones pop right and left, you should be putting them to efficient use in shatters. 4/4/0/0/6 is a vastly superior build compared to 0/4/4/0/6 when you’re playing in sPvP.

Wile.5024:

- Enemy having AoE condicleanse in team fights is a huge problem

This is more or less equivalent to saying ‘Enemy having aoe blocks is a huge problem’. Yes, condie cleanse can be used to remove the torment…so put more on or bait out that cleanse.

Nobody is claiming that this build is going to be the new meta for mesmers at a high level. The fact is that mesmers are not in the meta at all at a high level. Maim builds perform at a very similar level compared to power shatter and interrupt builds that are more commonly used. Their higher inherent defense and active defense with a nasty bite makes them more suited to dueling with thieves, and the higher sustained damage but lower burst gives them a slightly different team-fight role.

@pyro

About the creative steps on using the lazor, any advice? Tek told me to ask you about this so…

I mean advice like if you are fighting him too… You know.. At that level..

StickerHappy.8052:

@pyro

About the creative steps on using the lazor, any advice? Tek told me to ask you about this so…

I mean advice like if you are fighting him too… You know.. At that level..

Depends on what you’re fighting.

If you’re fighting somebody that does a lot of interrupts (thief/mesmer), then you use the laser to pull a bait and switch; laser it up then rapidly replace the laser with your torment block to catch the incoming interrupt.

If you’re fighting a mesmer or warrior that uses blocks with a counter attached to them, the laser is a fantastic way to bait those out. Use it expecting the block to come out….and the interrupt your laser with your own block to block the block-counter from them.

The laser (this is difficult, but possible) adds on one stack of confusion every second or so. If you tag an ele with this skill just as they begin casting ether renewal (channeled heal-cleanse) it can work out that it’ll remove the confusion just after you place it on them…for 5 ticks in a row. Ether renewal removes far too many conditions to be countered just by that, but that gives 5 extra seconds of ticking for whatever they’ve got on them.

In general, it’s just a great thing to bait defensive cooldowns with. Cast confusing images, they dodge. Now you know they’re down a dodge, maybe two. This is an opportunity for a shatter without too much setup. Confusing images will pop the focus shield of a guardian, it’s great for that. It’s also a fantastic way to apply poison from the doom sigil as it’s non-reflectable and has reasonably long range.

Fay.2357:

StickerHappy.8052:

@pyro

About the creative steps on using the lazor, any advice? Tek told me to ask you about this so…

I mean advice like if you are fighting him too… You know.. At that level..

Depends on what you’re fighting.

If you’re fighting somebody that does a lot of interrupts (thief/mesmer), then you use the laser to pull a bait and switch; laser it up then rapidly replace the laser with your torment block to catch the incoming interrupt.

If you’re fighting a mesmer or warrior that uses blocks with a counter attached to them, the laser is a fantastic way to bait those out. Use it expecting the block to come out….and the interrupt your laser with your own block to block the block-counter from them.

The laser (this is difficult, but possible) adds on one stack of confusion every second or so. If you tag an ele with this skill just as they begin casting ether renewal (channeled heal-cleanse) it can work out that it’ll remove the confusion just after you place it on them…for 5 ticks in a row. Ether renewal removes far too many conditions to be countered just by that, but that gives 5 extra seconds of ticking for whatever they’ve got on them.

In general, it’s just a great thing to bait defensive cooldowns with. Cast confusing images, they dodge. Now you know they’re down a dodge, maybe two. This is an opportunity for a shatter without too much setup. Confusing images will pop the focus shield of a guardian, it’s great for that. It’s also a fantastic way to apply poison from the doom sigil as it’s non-reflectable and has reasonably long range.

Thank you for this pyro.

Just to follow up on the question, I find it hard to fight Really good shatter mesmers (the power one) with generosity sigils while I use scepter using a condition build.

I feel like the scepter has too many “wind up” skills and leaves me open. Any advice other than the one from above to increase my skill while using scepter?

The reason I ask, i have no Idea what to do when they pew pew and #4 on range, the blocks range would still not reach them

Wile.5024:

Mostly the build worked like I thought it would work, even did a good job at times. It’s definitely slower and easier to play than dps shatter too. A decent build but definitely a tier below the double ranged shatter.

Best thing posted in this thread so far. Annoyed at how a few people are defending this build like someone is attacking their baby.

Played about 15 games on a few very similar builds after reading this thread. The build is GOOD, and can be very effective in both 1v1 and teamfights, but I feel easily countered compared to standard shatter. You want me to stand on point and let staff clones slowly stack conditions when I can’t deal with thieves or anybody with mediocre condi cleanse?

This build takes on a completely different playstyle than power in my experience, and I don’t think it plays to the strengths of mesmer. To me, playing power as mesmer is all about abusing mobility and high burst damage to disrupt ongoing fights and decap/deny rotations.

I can’t think of any reason I would ever want a MtD mesmer on my team when I could have a meditation guard, cele engi, cele engi, or even terrormancer to play a similar role and do it better.

The build is fun, and it’s good. Just doesn’t fulfill its role as well as standard shatter(which already is kind of lousy at its role compared to thief).

I want a viable condi shatter build so so badly, but I don’t think mesmer has enough staying power in a team fight to pull it off and compete with other classes condi dmg output.

edit: did my testing mostly with this, and also the boon strip variant
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpRtlpxINcrNitBZyLUCUPkjsySGghB-TZRHwAC3fIwJAIZZABHBAAPCAA

Fay.2357:

Good players use scepter 2 intelligently to force other players to eat the torment.

True, I ended up doing exactly theses kind of things in my games too… for example torment via popping an engi mine. It’s kinda a shame though that can’t really use the skill to punish someone for attacking you with a high dmg skill targeted at you. Like block an eviscerate and cause torment… seems to me it’s very often only one of these: useful block OR torment.

I wish devs would buff the weapon to be faster and more responsive, same goes for the LAZOR even if your next post had valid points.

Fay.2357:

Wile.5024:

- Horrible chase potential due to slow projectiles

Why are you chasing?

There’s a huge difference between these 2 scenarios: a) defend a point and make the enemy flee b) defend a point and kill the enemy. Option a) makes me worried, depending on the situation I might have to stick around… the enemy could come back with full hp after some seconds, even with reinforcements. If I tried to leave the point he might circle back, stealth, blink whatever. Option b) The enemy is dead, I can immediately move on to go help my allies.. or in the case if enemy reinforces it’s another 1v1.

Fay.2357:

Wile.5024:

- Horrible max range fighting due to slow projectiles
- Need to be in close proximity to setup clones for good shatter

While power shatter has better long range pressure, the close range clone setup is common to both.

Again true, felt like the clone setup was very similar. izerker and mirrorblade do summon a clone next to the enemy from max range though which is useful sometimes.

Fay.2357:

Wile.5024:

- Bad for stomping, bad for on-demand interrupt

There’s nothing wrong with this build for stomping. You don’t have IP distortion, but you’ve got quite a few other ways to protect your stomps.

In team fights I felt I needed to rely much more on my team to do the stomping… the extra second of distortion with IP really helps. With such a squishy character I felt like I often couldn’t take the extra second of damage. There’s another awesome thing you can do with IP too: interrupting the res WHILE stomping.

For smaller scale fights the torch seemed to work nicely though.

Fay.2357:

Wile.5024:

- No boon remove shatter OR no clone death (1 of these)

Debilitating dissipation is 100% unnecessary. You shouldn’t be letting all your clones pop right and left, you should be putting them to efficient use in shatters. 4/4/0/0/6 is a vastly superior build compared to 0/4/4/0/6 when you’re playing in sPvP.

I went with OP’s build as it was advertised to be GREAT in every aspect of sPvP (lol). But yeah personally would pick boon removal (and extra condition duration) over this too.

Fay.2357:

Wile.5024:

- Enemy having AoE condicleanse in team fights is a huge problem

This is more or less equivalent to saying ‘Enemy having aoe blocks is a huge problem’.

It’s not equivalent at all… aoe block in team fight is very likely to block minor dmg from some aoe or cleave. A guardian using a shout to clear, let’s say 6 stacks of torment and confusion from 3 enemies is HUGE in comparison.

All I’m saying is that the effectiveness of this build lowers drastically if enemy counters with team condi clear effectively… if you think about the power shatter, the AoE healing of direct damage isn’t as effective in this game.

Fay.2357:

Nobody is claiming that this build is going to be the new meta for mesmers at a high level. The fact is that mesmers are not in the meta at all at a high level. Maim builds perform at a very similar level compared to power shatter and interrupt builds that are more commonly used. Their higher inherent defense and active defense with a nasty bite makes them more suited to dueling with thieves, and the higher sustained damage but lower burst gives them a slightly different team-fight role.

Many claims were made in this thread how this build is equivalent or better than power shatter in various situations and against the cele meta and thieves. And I still disagree on this being any better against thieves based on the points I made in my previous reply.

The sad part of what you say is true, mesmers being left out of the meta, maybe that’s why I wanted to point out flaws in this build too… who knows, maybe a balancing dev would have stumbled here by accident and would have seen this thread with nothing but outstanding and 100% positive replies and thought to himself “oh great they already have a meta viable condition shatter build, no need to buff anything at all”.

i dont want to start shifting the discussion on tpvp compositions, strategies and tactics.
but the fact is you hardly see mesmer in higher tier of tpvp. basically because other classes and builds do it better.
i never said mtd does better job then the power shatter as both got different role and play style.

i play mtd from the begging even before the buff it and shifted to it as i struggled as power shatter in tpvp – maybe its me or my experience thus i looked for an alternative

pu was out of the qeastion, phantasm also. double range was fine but again i notice low average dps and when i role a thief i could do it better.

i tried to think what in the meta is missing . the answer is conditions. zerk class hardly take it anymore. thief maybe 1 trait, mesmer hardly, engi got 2 maybe etc.
i notice condi necro cant put good huge aoe condi bombs and the engi does it far better, ranger is 1v1 mostly. thus i wanted to take my mtd to the tpvp.

it overwhelmed me . starting by saying i am pu cheease build to the "how the hell you manage to put 15 torment on me and confusion " OP
even when i loose i get whispers of good game. and sometimes noob mesmer.

i never said mtd is far better than power shatter. but yes i notice i have easy time capping and holding 1v1 on point . even though i wont look for it but enough time to get help for easy 2v1 kill. you want see a thief trying against turret engi on point or even shatter mesmer as they got different role (to look for easy 2v1)

i usually look of aoe field to proc the block and torment and clone for fast shatter.
i have better chance to push the ele and guardian on defense mode and to disengage others off point not like shatter mesmer who will fight from range off point thus losing time for his group else where.

i tested MTD build with 3 good players on every class and meta build
and also tested it in 2v2 scenarios on mid

results for my pov:
easy to handle – ele, bunker guard, warrior, power ranger (tricky) – 80% win
medium – medguard, engi, sd thief, necro, condi ranger – 50% win
hard – dp thief, engi power shatter – 30% win

easy doesnt mean fast kill

in 2v2 i had better results whether i played with bunker ally or dmg ally
in tpvp – hard time if the team got good cleanse composition like guardian ele and shot warrior. so i re-role of take close point holder and not group mid.
if i am with bunker guard on point 2v2 or 2v3 i hug him and shatter always while he is keeping me alive which result in both enemy below 50% hp and then easy 3v2 win
or even 2v2 win as they both use all their cleanse skill, heal etc.

i dont say i can win always and yes d/p thief is kitten counter for me at least

i usualy get the block proc and the lazer – just learned when and how to use it

what i have notice is that ppl start shatter from the begging and scream they cleanse all my conditions . i usually bait the cleanse and dodges then shatter freely when they below 50% hp. 3 staff clones do nice work if you place them far from each other

so for now what i can think of replacing this build in tpvp is engi but do you want 2 engi in your team? or maybe 1 boon removal , moa, portal with you, aoe cleanse etc.

You make good points, would have been great if your first post was like this : D

Yeah with some needed buffs I could see this build replace an engi…

Wile.5024:

You make good points, would have been great if your first post was like this : D

Yeah with some needed buffs I could see this build replace an engi…

:D i still thinks this build is good counter the the cele meta or at least push them to play defense

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

i am far behind on the leaderboards. play only 2 hours a day max

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

Leaderboards are hilariously broken, I wouldn’t put any stock in them now.

I’m drunk and have been busy throwing charity events all weekend, but I will say that I linked MY maim build when responding originally to some of the critiques in this thread. I thought I made this clear on more than one occasion.

witcher.3197:

Ross Biddle.2367:

witcher.3197:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and don’t worry about the meta battle guys. They’re about a step away from the devs for knowing what’s what about the mesmer ;D

wow :P Considering nearly all metabattle PvP builds are based on major tournaments and top players, maybe it’s your understanding of the game that’s not good enough to see the reason behind the skill/trait/etc choices.

This build is fun, but in no way “Great” and that should be clear to anyone with some ranked experience who knows Conquest roles and optimal builds. The forum in general thinks that the easier a build is, the better, which indicates that most people can’t make harder builds work because they lack the experience and this lack of experience leads to many bad theorycrafting where inexperienced players encourage each other and eventually convince themselves that what they made is good.

Just my 2 cents

Don’t take the comment to seriously.

It’s not only about you, it’s about most of the profession forum people in general. The profession forum section is full of people who live in their own bubble, don’t acknowledge optimal builds because they can’t play them (or simply because they are too hipster to use popular builds) and then theorycraft their horrible builds and have an orgasm even from watching a hotjoin killshot video. These people will never get good at the game with their current mentality and most good players left this place a long long time ago because they realized they can’t do reasoning with people who are blinded by their devotion to some specs.

Well, what can I say? I’m not stupid enough to defend the internet :p

This entire thread is pure comedy.

If you’re in trash MMR you can make any mesmer build work. You can go kittening mantra heal with cleric amulet, offhand focus only, and still win, because chances are pretty high, that the people you are facing are just as terrible as you.

All it takes is a single shoutbow warrior, or passive cleanse trait to get rid of that cheese and all you can do for your team is moa someone every 180 seconds. Because guess what, with blink, arcane thievery and mirror images you wont be an asset to your team, nor put up any pressure in teamfights.

Wile.5024:

3) You used moa (shame on you)

Welcome to 2015, where decent mesmers actualy learned how to survive their fights with just their weaponset and positioning, and without spamming Mass Invisibility in every single encounter, to get out of sticky situations. Instead we bring a hard lockout skill for high prioritiy targets such as Lich, a weakened Engi/Ele, Warrior trying to banner a downed enemy, or any enemy trying to rez in a midfight in that regard, to turn the fight in our favor.

as i havent played shtter mesmer more than 6 months can someone tell me if the power build can handle those meta build and compositions

med gaurd – block block block stability…while kill your clonse with cleaves and aoe
shout warrior – heal fast immune to immobilize
turret engi, rifle engi – great aoe control on point kill clones fast and good heal
d/p thief – stealth
dd ele – good sustain
lb ranger – good range if position right
bunker guard – hard to kill block block block heal
bunker staff ele – hard to kill
power necro – if supported by his team can do massive dmg
condi necro – can pressure if can catch you

so what can power mesmer do against them – all the video i saw from the esl was pew pew with gs and some 2 shatter combos the whole fight while being targeted and pressure to play defense thus doing nothing to his team beside portal eascape or decap points like thieves do

all the builds above are counters by conditions pressure (beside shout warrior)

Medi guard should, equally skilled, easily counter mesmer. That said they still are very vurnable for unexpected shatter bursts. Based on a 1v1 mtd would maybe have a better chance, but in a team fight it would certainly not hurt him as much as a power shatter would.

Shout war: You shouldnt win 1v1 equally skilled with whatever you run. Shout warrior almost 1v1’s anything and power shatter most likely even has a better chance of winning than mtd.

Engineer: Power benifits heavily here due that the way to win vs engies is to keep distance. You can’t keep distance with mtd or if you do, your damage will be quite kitten.

D/P / S/D thieves: mtd should have a better chance of winning a pure 1v1, though same as medi guard they are very vurnable for unexpected bursts. Something that’s not able to accomplish with mtd. Power will be much better in team fights for this matter.

D/D ele: Personal experience I’d say mtd would have a better chance, however, you can also kill a d/d ele on power. Power, again, better in team fights vs d/d eles.

Lb ranger: Hurrdurr.. depends a lot on the terrain you’re fighting.

Bunker guard: Power by far

Bunker staff ele: Power by far

Power necro: Idk, I’d say power due that you should keep enough range to react to dark path and axe attacks.

Condi necro: You certainly don’t wanna be close against condi necro’s and mtd will just kill yourself if they transfer it back to you.

tldr: Power wins on all forms of team fights but lacks on a few 1v1 situations where mtd shines. In a game where team fights are very important I would take power any day over mtd.

messiah.1908:

as i havent played shtter mesmer more than 6 months can someone tell me if the power build can handle those meta build and compositions

med gaurd – block block block stability…while kill your clonse with cleaves and aoe
shout warrior – heal fast immune to immobilize
turret engi, rifle engi – great aoe control on point kill clones fast and good heal
d/p thief – stealth
dd ele – good sustain
lb ranger – good range if position right
bunker guard – hard to kill block block block heal
bunker staff ele – hard to kill
power necro – if supported by his team can do massive dmg
condi necro – can pressure if can catch you

so what can power mesmer do against them – all the video i saw from the esl was pew pew with gs and some 2 shatter combos the whole fight while being targeted and pressure to play defense thus doing nothing to his team beside portal eascape or decap points like thieves do

all the builds above are counters by conditions pressure (beside shout warrior)

Last time I checked conquest was 5v5 not 1v1 and that’s something you fail to understand pretty hard. Shatter mesmer (power) brings more to the team. While it’s easier for a lower skilled player to be effective against the specs you mention with a condi shatter, a good power shatter mes can deal with them as well (except for the thief part) – sometimes the matchup’s even better for power shatter, especially against shoutbow and staff ele.

witcher.3197:

messiah.1908:

as i havent played shtter mesmer more than 6 months can someone tell me if the power build can handle those meta build and compositions

med gaurd – block block block stability…while kill your clonse with cleaves and aoe
shout warrior – heal fast immune to immobilize
turret engi, rifle engi – great aoe control on point kill clones fast and good heal
d/p thief – stealth
dd ele – good sustain
lb ranger – good range if position right
bunker guard – hard to kill block block block heal
bunker staff ele – hard to kill
power necro – if supported by his team can do massive dmg
condi necro – can pressure if can catch you

so what can power mesmer do against them – all the video i saw from the esl was pew pew with gs and some 2 shatter combos the whole fight while being targeted and pressure to play defense thus doing nothing to his team beside portal eascape or decap points like thieves do

all the builds above are counters by conditions pressure (beside shout warrior)

Last time I checked conquest was 5v5 not 1v1 and that’s something you fail to understand pretty hard. Shatter mesmer (power) brings more to the team. While it’s easier for a lower skilled player to be effective against the specs you mention with a condi shatter, a good power shatter mes can deal with them as well (except for the thief part) – sometimes the matchup’s even better for power shatter, especially against shoutbow and staff ele.

i do understand that why i wrote “handle those meta build and compositions”

what i could see from those esl fights that the mesmer hardly do significant dmg in group fights and in 1v1 he run away to look for 2v1 or 4v3 which is what is needed to do

when i fight i manage to see i can pull out nice AOE condition dmg
i see the heals come out and the utilities used from 2-3 enemies
while as power shatter they block it evade it or just heal but hardly use utilities
sure if there are shout warrior and bunker guard it will be hard to manage to do anything even with power shatter

i dont know guys maybe its me but conditions works better for my mesmer

Condition specs overall are more noob friendly and more effective when used against people who blow up all their condi removals from the getgo.

No shade to the OP’s mtd build, but obviously we disagree on which is superior… Wile, you should playtest my build instead of Messiah’s. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA

Shout war: You shouldnt win 1v1 equally skilled with whatever you run. Shout warrior almost 1v1’s anything and power shatter most likely even has a better chance of winning than mtd.

THIS is what mtd kitten sucks against. 1v1 is near impossible, but I can say that I’ve beaten them before. However, this was after wasting a tremendous amount of time, and the point was in their favor (I still have noob moments from time to time give me a break!!). However in a team setting, you want the war to blow through his shouts. Mtd makes the cele meta exhaust their condi clear, which is without a doubt, their hard counter. And because Mtd can dish it out at such a high velocity, it puts the team fight in your corner after a period of time.

Engineer: Power benifits heavily here due that the way to win vs engies is to keep distance. You can’t keep distance with mtd or if you do, your damage will be quite kitten.

Well saying that a power mesmer has to keep distance is quite redundant, because a power mesmer ALWAYS has to keep distance in any team fight or 1v1 for most of the time. Mtd can safely get into melee range for a tiny bit for a shatter or Torment block, then get back out.

Your assertion that MtD ranged has kitten dmg is a bit disingenuous. I simply stand outside of turrets, let Staff Clones AA (very strong), switch to scepter for poison & Confusing Images, then switch back. It’s a very easy fight, especially if I get either two shatters or a torment block and 1 shatter off. In a team fight, Mtd does well here as well, because if you aren’t being focused, you have more opportunities to connect your shatters for AOE dmg. It literally only takes a few to make a cele engi wimper. Again, the fact that Mtd can do better in melee range AND from a distance is strong here.

D/P / S/D thieves: mtd should have a better chance of winning a pure 1v1, though same as medi guard they are very vurnable for unexpected bursts. Something that’s not able to accomplish with mtd. Power will be much better in team fights for this matter.

Again, it comes down to playstyle, but I don’t think power wins here in the team fight based solely on the fact that a power mesmer has to be baby sat. I made a post comparing the builds on the first page. It only takes one Shatter (of 3) to scare a thief out of the fight completely. And again, all of a MtD’s shatters are equally potent unlike with power. Power shatter, if you’re precise, can down him, but MtD does the same thing at a slower pace. The slower pace is a con, but you accept this for other pluses that power doesn’t have (toughness, Null Field, pDisenchanter team utilities).

D/D ele: Personal experience I’d say mtd would have a better chance, however, you can also kill a d/d ele on power. Power, again, better in team fights vs d/d eles.

Why is it better in a team fight again? Because you might get lucky (Dwayna protect you from that ele’s burn) and land a few bursts without going down first? idk how we got back on the topic of 1v1s yet again, but regardless, Mtd does better in team fights against cele ele for sure. See my response about Warrior above. Ele takes longer to down, but it’s inevitable. They definitely can’t really push you around like they would if you were power.

Condi necro: You certainly don’t wanna be close against condi necro’s and mtd will just kill yourself if they transfer it back to you.

Well I run NullField/Arcane & pDisenchanter, so if I know what I’m up against, I change my plastyle. Conditions are usually what beat me, because I tend to use my utilities for teammates or in an offensive way for boone strip.

tl:dr

Power wins on all forms of team fights but lacks on a few 1v1 situations where mtd shines. In a game where team fights are very important I would take power any day over mtd.

MtD can bring just as much team utility if not more than power. More boon removal. More team/self condi removal. More toughness (less baby-sitting). More flexibility in positioning (melee/range). Insane AOE condition pressure = enemy team exhausts clears early in fight. MtD is a slower yet safer route to victory. It is calculated. It’s patient. It is aggressively pernicious.

i also play 4,4,0,0,6 build when see 2 boons classes or /and my team want fast vulnerability stacks

i wouldnt take PD as i like to shatter and dont want to care about my illusions

mtd gives you 4 points to play with where power shatter dont.

i will upload soon video from 2 fights i had tonight with pugs so no ts.
was fun so i try to make it fun video for all the haters

MailMail.6534:

No shade to the OP’s mtd build, but obviously we disagree on which is superior… Wile, you should playtest my build instead of Messiah’s. http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNArfWlknpMtlqxQNcrNCrBh6rslfSyEEgSWhrB-TJRHwAC3fIZZABnCAAPBAA

Shout war: You shouldnt win 1v1 equally skilled with whatever you run. Shout warrior almost 1v1’s anything and power shatter most likely even has a better chance of winning than mtd.

THIS is what mtd kitten sucks against. 1v1 is near impossible, but I can say that I’ve beaten them before. However, this was after wasting a tremendous amount of time, and the point was in their favor (I still have noob moments from time to time give me a break!!). However in a team setting, you want the war to blow through his shouts. Mtd makes the cele meta exhaust their condi clear, which is without a doubt, their hard counter. And because Mtd can dish it out at such a high velocity, it puts the team fight in your corner after a period of time.

Engineer: Power benifits heavily here due that the way to win vs engies is to keep distance. You can’t keep distance with mtd or if you do, your damage will be quite kitten.

Well saying that a power mesmer has to keep distance is quite redundant, because a power mesmer ALWAYS has to keep distance in any team fight or 1v1 for most of the time. Mtd can safely get into melee range for a tiny bit for a shatter or Torment block, then get back out.

Your assertion that MtD ranged has kitten dmg is a bit disingenuous. I simply stand outside of turrets, let Staff Clones AA (very strong), switch to scepter for poison & Confusing Images, then switch back. It’s a very easy fight, especially if I get either two shatters or a torment block and 1 shatter off. In a team fight, Mtd does well here as well, because if you aren’t being focused, you have more opportunities to connect your shatters for AOE dmg. It literally only takes a few to make a cele engi wimper. Again, the fact that Mtd can do better in melee range AND from a distance is strong here.

D/P / S/D thieves: mtd should have a better chance of winning a pure 1v1, though same as medi guard they are very vurnable for unexpected bursts. Something that’s not able to accomplish with mtd. Power will be much better in team fights for this matter.

Again, it comes down to playstyle, but I don’t think power wins here in the team fight based solely on the fact that a power mesmer has to be baby sat. I made a post comparing the builds on the first page. It only takes one Shatter (of 3) to scare a thief out of the fight completely. And again, all of a MtD’s shatters are equally potent unlike with power. Power shatter, if you’re precise, can down him, but MtD does the same thing at a slower pace. The slower pace is a con, but you accept this for other pluses that power doesn’t have (toughness, Null Field, pDisenchanter team utilities).

D/D ele: Personal experience I’d say mtd would have a better chance, however, you can also kill a d/d ele on power. Power, again, better in team fights vs d/d eles.

Why is it better in a team fight again? Because you might get lucky (Dwayna protect you from that ele’s burn) and land a few bursts without going down first? idk how we got back on the topic of 1v1s yet again, but regardless, Mtd does better in team fights against cele ele for sure. See my response about Warrior above. Ele takes longer to down, but it’s inevitable. They definitely can’t really push you around like they would if you were power.

Condi necro: You certainly don’t wanna be close against condi necro’s and mtd will just kill yourself if they transfer it back to you.

Well I run NullField/Arcane & pDisenchanter, so if I know what I’m up against, I change my plastyle. Conditions are usually what beat me, because I tend to use my utilities for teammates or in an offensive way for boone strip.

tl:dr

Power wins on all forms of team fights but lacks on a few 1v1 situations where mtd shines. In a game where team fights are very important I would take power any day over mtd.

MtD can bring just as much team utility if not more than power. More boon removal. More team/self condi removal. More toughness (less baby-sitting). More flexibility in positioning (melee/range). Insane AOE condition pressure = enemy team exhausts clears early in fight. MtD is a slower yet safer route to victory. It is calculated. It’s patient. It is aggressively pernicious.

Oh man, Mailman just rekt you dissenters, not just with his mean post, but his obvious actual experience.

here is the video from last night with 2 full tpvp pug fights

Fay.2357:

Miku Lawrence.6329:

I can’t see you on leaderboards, what is your IG?

Leaderboards are hilariously broken, I wouldn’t put any stock in them now.

True. Wanted to check gw2score as they kept the data before Anet broke leaderboards.
Op, if you’re far behind I don’t think this is a great representation of ranked PvP so we can’t make hative conclusions on build’s performances in Meta.

Egh..
@MailMail.6534
Mtd is not ‘’MASS AOE PRESSURE’‘. It’s pretty poor actually and a few nades or a few marks of necro can do the exact same for much less effort. Not to mention it’s max 3 conditions. 1 or 2 condi removals across the team and there goes your damage.

About the engi part: Yes I agree for most part, but you gotta be aware that there are more than enough classes that can be easily taken down close range. Whereas with engi it’s pretty forced to stay at range when equally skilled. Not to mention that your utilities only have 1 stun breaker. A well landed slick shoes and you’re dead. That little extra toughness you gain against this class is quite unnoticeable.
(This kinda goes for everything. The moment you take away 1 stun break skill and you use your only stun breaker to have mobility, you’ll find yourself in a team fight or a duel getting kitten d by the little CC someone can put out already. )

You take ultilities to win 1v1’s, rather than taking portal where mesmer shines. There’s no reason to have a mesmer if the mesmer doesn’t take portal. The discussion around it should rather be how to be the most effective while having portal blink and an optional ultility slot on your skill bar.

The boon removal should not be more since you lack 1 clone (aka IP) per shatter. That’s 1 boon less removed per shatter and also the most reliable one. You fill that loss for 1 utility which has a 40 second cooldown. And let’s be honest, if this skill removes more than 2 boons per target you’re most likely fighting bad players or they are absolutly stun locked/ immob locked whereas null field is quite irrelevant since you should easily be able to take down such targets without null field.

The fact that you’re asuming power burst is based on ’’luck’’ already says quite enough to me. Quoting from before:

Condition specs overall are more noob friendly and more effective when used against people who blow up all their condi removals from the getgo.

P.s. Don’t you lose like 3-4k hp with mtd compared to zerker? That’s quite significant against conditions no matter how much condi removal you got.

@messiah.1908
Sorry to say but the first 2 skills you cast are already a total waste. Along with that I took the effort to go through the first match and it’s pretty safe to say that your team mates carried you by far. Your total damage output across the whole video is less than I would put out by spamming 1 GS. It was pretty much your team killing the players at the first fight and then it was pretty much snowballing from then on. Playing unranked or ranked still doesn’t say anything about the players. Just look how bad this necro it’s positioning is from the enemy team.. blah.

It’s rather funny to see when you said ‘’the ele is trolling so i troll him too’’. This ele just denied you from dealing damage by just running around. Whereas this ranger was just standing still and spamming his skills. This ranger could be compared to a power mesmer that spams his GS skills. You can easily see that almost all damage comes from the ranger whereas you deal like… 2k damage?

i was prepered for that response and thans for you effort
ppl ask me to put full fights and not some cutscenes

the ele got all his dmg from me . the ranger didnt hit him when i moa him as he evade all his attackes. the seconds ranger who came killed him but i did around 5k dmg which got healed fast with dd
the ele troll because we already won so just running around accomplish nothing off the point for him. so dont count this fight

if killing the ranger when he is immune to direct dmg is carried and stomping and ressing and intrupt the stomp is carried sry to say you just worng.
making the engi use all his abilities thus making him vulnerable. puting 1-2k confusion
making the thief go SR and pushing the engi to run for easy kill for the dd ele . killing the ranger fast making his team lose few seconds on 1v3 just after they got killed fast as both enemy were low on hp…ranger 15% thief below 50%.

both fights i think our group rotation and response were good even when i 1v2 in far my team came to finish after the guard use all his utilities and virtues.

yes the first 2 skills total waste – i was trying somthing and didnt make it.

and regarding my rank – cant say i play the hier tier as you ppl but few fights i fought as my other guild member mention against one of the top 3 team in esl – yes we lost so badly . i am not looking to be high ranked. as i dont have a group and i dont play daily

i whish some other high rank ppl could try it and video it

Before the moa you did max 6k damage in a period of +/- 30 seconds. That’s like what, 200 dps? A ranger pet does about the same.
There was no 2nd ranger. It’s just the same ranger spamming his attacks just like you do, but being 10x more effective.

Theres a reason the ranger died to condies and that is because he got bursted before he popped his immunity. In any case, waiting 5 seconds till you can kill him or waiting 5 seconds till he dies to condies doesn’t make any difference. Not to mention that he had 12 stacks bleeding on him, whereas only 3-4 of those were from you. At least 1/2 of the other condi pressure came from someone else, which doesn’t impress me at all seeing you’re the one who should deal the majority of the condi pressure as condi spec.

Sorry you misinterpreted my point. This thread became more like a ‘’power-condi shatter comparison’‘, whereas I compare the builds effectiveness and see what’s better. This does not include skills and actions that is able to accomplish on both builds, since that would not be relevant.
Stomping and dazing resses belongs to this aspect, because it’s possible on both fronts. However, if we would compare it power shatter would be better at it by far due on demand dazes and on demand and longer immunity.

The confu procs from the thief at 2:35 just shows how bad your opponents are, rather than how good condi shatter works. Anyone with half a brain would’ve stopped attacking there or just clusterbombed once to kill the clone.
3v1ing an engi is not something I would consider being useful. But lol, probably the most damage you did to a single target that game was to that engi by dealing like 10-12k before he died. Kinda compareable to 1 full shatter burst on power shatter though…

The engi is also bad since he insta popped his block while you were only spamming 1 staff. I don’t see any reason for the engi to do such dumb thing instead of spamming nades from far away. The engi couldve baited your dodges or deal already 3-4k damage in that time he wasted his block.

Now this is actually funny cause you can clearly see how little you can do with mtd once someone is ressing. This engi at 40% hp just resses this mesmer without any problem against you + the engi.
Once he got the useless signet mesmer up he dies to 4-5k damage from the engi jump shot + 2k condi damage from you.

The ’’1v2’’ at far was against a tank guard, which seriously dealt no damage to you at all and a ranger that bumped in for max 10 seconds to eat 10k hp from you which forced you to run away. As a power mesmer I would give up on the node, sit behind a rock, go in stealth and burst the ranger. Hell you would benifit so much more from that rather than nearly dieing to a ranger facerolling his keyboard.

What I personally find very sad is where you pop your feedback just before the ranger comes into the fight for no reason at all. If you run feedback, at least use it well and don’t spam it randomly.

What I saw from the MtD video posted wasn’t anything great from a team play perspective. You really could have ran any random build and still would have had the same outcome. Where you showed how “weak” this build is was up against the shout guardian. There wasn’t a lot of pressure other than having the guardian use Save Yourself but then two of your teammates came and you followed and took point.

MtD may be decent for lower tier play (signet Mesmer? C’mon…) but I just see this build leaving the Mesmer as a huge liability.

I don’t know your level of play except for seeing this video but you’ve made some odd decisions while fighting. For instance, using Chaos Storm on a downed thief after they teleported and didn’t use their 1s stealth downed ability. And also what appeared to be a random Feedback?

Also when the Engineer was reviving the signet Mesmer, you did nothing to interrupt that (I didn’t see poison on the Mesmer?). Other than wasting your Moa on him when he had Elixir S still up, where was the pressure on the downed Mesmer?

BlackDevil.9268:

Before the moa you did max 6k damage in a period of +/- 30 seconds. That’s like what, 200 dps? A ranger pet does about the same.
There was no 2nd ranger. It’s just the same ranger spamming his attacks just like you do, but being 10x more effective.

Theres a reason the ranger died to condies and that is because he got bursted before he popped his immunity. In any case, waiting 5 seconds till you can kill him or waiting 5 seconds till he dies to condies doesn’t make any difference. Not to mention that he had 12 stacks bleeding on him, whereas only 3-4 of those were from you. At least 1/2 of the other condi pressure came from someone else, which doesn’t impress me at all seeing you’re the one who should deal the majority of the condi pressure as condi spec.

Sorry you misinterpreted my point. This thread became more like a ‘’power-condi shatter comparison’‘, whereas I compare the builds effectiveness and see what’s better. This does not include skills and actions that is able to accomplish on both builds, since that would not be relevant.
Stomping and dazing resses belongs to this aspect, because it’s possible on both fronts. However, if we would compare it power shatter would be better at it by far due on demand dazes and on demand and longer immunity.

The confu procs from the thief at 2:35 just shows how bad your opponents are, rather than how good condi shatter works. Anyone with half a brain would’ve stopped attacking there or just clusterbombed once to kill the clone.
3v1ing an engi is not something I would consider being useful. But lol, probably the most damage you did to a single target that game was to that engi by dealing like 10-12k before he died. Kinda compareable to 1 full shatter burst on power shatter though…

The engi is also bad since he insta popped his block while you were only spamming 1 staff. I don’t see any reason for the engi to do such dumb thing instead of spamming nades from far away. The engi couldve baited your dodges or deal already 3-4k damage in that time he wasted his block.

Now this is actually funny cause you can clearly see how little you can do with mtd once someone is ressing. This engi at 40% hp just resses this mesmer without any problem against you + the engi.
Once he got the useless signet mesmer up he dies to 4-5k damage from the engi jump shot + 2k condi damage from you.

The ’’1v2’’ at far was against a tank guard, which seriously dealt no damage to you at all and a ranger that bumped in for max 10 seconds to eat 10k hp from you which forced you to run away. As a power mesmer I would give up on the node, sit behind a rock, go in stealth and burst the ranger. Hell you would benifit so much more from that rather than nearly dieing to a ranger facerolling his keyboard.

What I personally find very sad is where you pop your feedback just before the ranger comes into the fight for no reason at all. If you run feedback, at least use it well and don’t spam it randomly.

i like your inputs

but …
there was third ranger who came at the end and burst it down. my ally ranger was with gs and accomplished nothing also with his pet as the ele was faster. but why we talking about this fight as i mention troll fight as we insure the win

the ranger had 17 bleed stacks while i did 1k-1.3k bleed dps 600-700 burning and 377 confusion and 150 torment thus 2.1k dps till he died. the warrior did the first bleed stack with bow as well

i never tried to compare between power and condi. only condi v condi and condi alone in group composition

the thief maybe though that with engi they can kill the ele fast that why both use skills

the engi and thief was 2v1 the ele. then i came and burst the engi who run to far point while ele down the thief, then come our warrior so not 3v1

the engi at close was readt for power shatter thats why he block as he saw clone up running for him.

at ressing you defently right. i might daze but f3 wasnt rdy with clone up so power ip shatter could do it better or even burst the down better as i tried but condi tick

the 1v2 – power shatter never would be able to kill fast bunker guard as make him use all his utilities even in 1v1. and even in 1v2 as you said you would give up the point and burst the ranger. i might too but i saw my team coming so why to run early i can dish bit more dmg.

the last fight with feedback isaw the ranger start pew pew and stop and back off so i gain few seconds without him pew pew and spread chaos storm for bigger aoe field. at least what i wanted to achieve

which condi class whould you think does it better

(This kinda goes for everything. The moment you take away 1 stun break skill and you use your only stun breaker to have mobility, you’ll find yourself in a team fight or a duel getting kitten d by the little CC someone can put out already. ).

Having one less stunbreak isn’t horrible on a build with more toughness. I disagree with you when you say the toughness vs healthpool isn’t very noticeable. Also, a good player will know when to use blink for mobility and when to save it for a stun break.

You take ultilities to win 1v1’s, rather than taking portal where mesmer shines. There’s no reason to have a mesmer if the mesmer doesn’t take portal. The discussion around it should rather be how to be the most effective while having portal blink and an optional ultility slot on your skill bar.

Taking Null field and pDisenchanter aren’t utilities just specialized towards 1v1s. They are VERY helpful for your team, and especially small scaled fights. Have you seen pDisenchanter in action? Portal is one of our best utilities by far, but I choose to focus more on the team fights than mobility here. I’ve never said that this build was better at mobility than dps mesmer. The burst on power and the velocity at which it can serve it is why it’s our best build.

The boon removal should not be more since you lack 1 clone (aka IP) per shatter. That’s 1 boon less removed per shatter and also the most reliable one. You fill that loss for 1 utility which has a 40 second cooldown. And let’s be honest, if this skill removes more than 2 boons per target you’re most likely fighting bad players or they are absolutly stun locked/ immob locked whereas null field is quite irrelevant since you should easily be able to take down such targets without null field.

Lol you count IP’s boon removal as consistent despite the fact that power mesmer needs to stay ranged? That’s the high risk high reward that comes with power. Yes, it’s reliable, but only when you’re in melee range, which is where power struggles the most. Null Field promotes point control and team support via condi clear. Either lose 5 boons or get off my point. There’s no denying that this is a win-win. pDisenchanter also removes a ton of boons at a high velocity. I think you underrate its effectiveness. Lastly, you must be more careful when shattering on power mesmer. With MtD, you have the ability to shatter more often.

The fact that you’re asuming power burst is based on ’’luck’’ already says quite enough to me

It’s called context. I was being cheeky when I said that. lol

Condition specs overall are more noob friendly and more effective when used against people who blow up all their condi removals from the getgo.

This is very true, but my argument is that with MtD, you force even good players to use their condi removals early in the fight as well.

I dont see how a little extra toughness makes up for the 3k hp loss and loss of a stunbreak. Btw what point are you trying to make? That condi shatter is somewhat viable or that its better than power shatter? Cause I feel like we’re talking past eachother.

My point is that power shatter is much better than condi shatter. Seeing mesmer is already quite a poor class in the current meta, using a build that is weaker than the best is pretty close to unviable.

BlackDevil.9268:

My point is that power shatter is much better than condi shatter. Seeing mesmer is already quite a poor class in the current meta, using a build that is weaker than the best is pretty close to unviable.

I disagree. If someone is good at a certain play style compared to another how would that make one build better than another? You make your own build viable with what works best for your play style and because of that stating that power shatter is more “meta” than condi is farse in my opinion.

I play both power and condi shatter (depending on who i’m playing with). I find personally I can survive a 3v1 on my condi than my power. Does it take me longer to finish that fight. Yes. but for my play style condi shatter works wonders for me particularly. May be different for you.

No. It’s just a fact that it works better. Equally skilled on both builds a power build gives much more than a condi shatter build. It has more burst, it has more dps and it’s aoe pressure is much better for cleaving and interrupting on downed players.

Use this in a match where people are smart enough to insta target you and you’re dead in seconds or you’re dealing 0 damage due that you’re standing on range spamming 1 staff all by yourself.

Yes on paper your right. FACT more burst, more DPS more pressure. But it doesn’t make the build better than a condi shatter if the end user can utilize its skills, utilities and traits to his/her play style.

Not trying to say I’m an expert but its a FACT that if you can’t adapt to a certain build due to your play style then find a build that matches your play style.

not to mention only a nub would stand still. So if your saying you know this personally when you play condi shatter than maybe your opinion should be void :p

CobraPolo.1723:

Yes on paper your right. FACT more burst, more DPS more pressure. But it doesn’t make the build better than a condi shatter if the end user can utilize its skills, utilities and traits to his/her play style.

Not trying to say I’m an expert but its a FACT that if you can’t adapt to a certain build due to your play style then find a build that matches your play style.

not to mention only a nub would stand still. So if your saying you know this personally when you play condi shatter than maybe your opinion should be void :p

On paper and in practice power shatter is better than condi shatter. There’s no reason to bring up personal experiences and/or personal preferences into comparing what’s better. When used in a nearly optimal way, power shatter is better than condi shatter. Can you make mtd work? Sure, as long as you’re fighting average players and a lot of 1v1’s.

BlackDevil.9268:

Use this in a match where people are smart enough to insta target you and you’re dead in seconds or you’re dealing 0 damage due that you’re standing on range spamming 1 staff all by yourself.

How is this any different for power shatter? You’ve got even less resilience in a power build than you do in a build using rabid.

Ultimately, since mesmer is not viable at the top level, ‘viable’ is simply a reflection of what works. If you’re able to play a build successfully at an appropriate level, then that build is viable.

I personally used to play tPvP quite a bit, and I played PU conditions almost exclusively. You’ll hear lots of moaning about how that isn’t viable. I maintained my place in the top 100 of solo queue and the top 150 soloing in team queue with relative ease, not really pushing hard for those spots. Therefor, PU conditions is viable at that level.

Any mesmer build (that actually works) is viable at any level except the very top if you’re competent and skilled enough to use it in an appropriate manner.