Guild Wars 2

I know mesmers aren’t in the best position right now when it comes to tpvp, I still main mesmer because it’s very rewarding and it’s my favorite. Plus tpvp roaming with my friend who is a thief makes for some fun burst shenanigans.

That being said, what changes do you think could be made to have the mesmer class become more viable in high level play?

Mesmer can’t stand in the current meta not because they are bad , just thief can do a better job on dealing dmg and roaming.

My suggestion is to remove Deceptive Evasion and build it into mesmer’s basic mechanic. This trait is such a failure that force all the mesmers to waste 4 points on dueling. The original Deceptive Evasion could be changed to something like “increase x% dmg against the target who has higher armor than you,” maybe like [target armor – your armor]%? This change could also gives mesmers a more specific role in the game, which now the thief cannot easily replace.

• Less dependence on illusions -or- being able to depend more on illusion to not die prematurely
• Better AI for illusions so they don’t get stuck on small rocks, etc.
• Fix targets that our illusions refuse to harm or simply refuse to even be summoned against.
• Don’t give my opponent two ways to thwart my phantasms … thwarting the summon or thwarting the phantasm’s attack … not both … the latter obviously makes more sense as phantasm attacks that can’t be mitigated would likely be unfair.

POPO.7213:

Mesmer can’t stand in the current meta not because they are bad , just thief can do a better job on dealing dmg and roaming.

My suggestion is to remove Deceptive Evasion and build it into mesmer’s basic mechanic. This trait is such a failure that force all the mesmers to waste 4 points on dueling. The original Deceptive Evasion could be changed to something like “increase x% dmg against the target who has higher armor than you,” maybe like [target armor – your armor]%? This change could also gives mesmers a more specific role in the game, which now the thief cannot easily replace.

Would you say thieves are better at something like boon removal? yeah I don’t feel like they’re bad by any means, just that something is missing. Building DE into the basic mechanic sounds fun, I’m not sure if that would mess with other builds though like phantasms. Perhaps making it a minor trait?

I do like thieves hard counter shatter maybe a little too well. Don’t get me wrong, I am completely ok with every build having a counter, I feel like the difference might be a little too good though. For example, DPS guards generally counter thieves, but a thief is still able to keep their distance and avoid it with mobility if they need to. Mesmers have to deal with the constant teleporting to close the gap, the ability to get every boon in the game, etc. making them pretty much a free kill if a good thief is on their team. That’s just my personal input, I’d like to hear more from ya’ll!

Take a look at: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon

I don’t think there is any other class with as many ways to remove/steal boons as Mesmers.

I think we’d have far less issues with Thieves if they didn’t get Consume Plasma (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma) from stealing on us. That’s a base 10s of every boon and some Thief builds can hit you with Steal every 21.5s.

This can put Mesmer builds without boon removal (they do exist, lol) in a tough spot.

Sebrent.3625:

Take a look at: http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Boon

I don’t think there is any other class with as many ways to remove/steal boons as Mesmers.

I think we’d have far less issues with Thieves if they didn’t get Consume Plasma (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Consume_Plasma) from stealing on us. That’s a base 10s of every boon and some Thief builds can hit you with Steal every 21.5s.

This can put Mesmer builds without boon removal (they do exist, lol) in a tough spot.

LOL… I’m sorry to say, but with comments like this, this is when we know players have know idea what there talking about. But that they only comment cuz they like to feel smart. You need to rechk your figures again. Have fun..

Sebrent.3625:

This can put Mesmer builds without boon removal (they do exist, lol) in a tough spot.

Consume Plasma granting ALL OF THE BOONS!!! also puts mesmers with boon removal at a disadvantage, because they still can’t get at the most important ones very easily.

Vieux P.1238:

You need to rechk your figures again.

http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Sleight_of_Hand

ASP.8093:

Sebrent.3625:

This can put Mesmer builds without boon removal (they do exist, lol) in a tough spot.

Consume Plasma granting ALL OF THE BOONS!!! also puts mesmers with boon removal at a disadvantage, because they still can’t get at the most important ones very easily.

Oh i’m not saying that. But i am referring to the Boon removal especially vs the thieves. Lots of thieves don’t need to use plasma to kick our kitten.

Vieux P.1238:

Lots of thieves don’t need to use plasma to kick our kitten.

This is true.

Being able to pound on a mesmer while you’ve got Aegis, Stability, and Protection on you is Easy Mode, though.

Let’s follow that train of thought Vieux P.

• Lots of thieves don’t need to use plasma to kick our kitten.
• Thieves can have 50+% up-time on all boons via steal if we don’t remove those boons.
• Those boons are quite effective; especially protection, vigor, regen, fury, aegis, stability, retaliation (Blurred Frenzy hates retal … ouchies)

So, because you think they don’t even need this to wreck some Mesmers, you think it doesn’t matter?

I’m confused at what issues you had with the information I provided.

Also disappointed by the rudeness.

If you’d like to discuss further, we can take it outside the thread if you feel it might de-rail this topic any further.

Sebrent.3625:

Let’s follow that train of thought Vieux P.

• Lots of thieves don’t need to use plasma to kick our kitten.
• Thieves can have 50+% up-time on all boons via steal if we don’t remove those boons.
• Those boons are quite effective; especially protection, vigor, regen, fury, aegis

So, because you think they don’t even need this to wreck some Mesmers, you think it doesn’t matter?

I’m confused at what issues you had with the information I provided.

Also disappointed by the rudeness.

No they usually dont.. Especially a good thief. Plasma & does other skill’s are just overkill. they only need 1-2 & Black powder then Bam! your dead. But in the other hand when it’s vs Me, they do need to click on everything.

Sorry about the rudness but i’m tired of reading the same poopoo over & over again.

I rather keep it simple. :The Mesmer is a subpar class that is poopoo to play. Fun poopoo but poopoo as is. ThQ

I see.

Back on topic. Another nice change would be to buff the Phantasmal Mage on Torch off-hand. I even see “pro” condition Mesmers complan about this one and he’s supposed to be the Phantasm most geared towards condition builds … at least that’s how he appears to me.

This would improve Mesmers by strengthening condition builds that use Torch as well as helping Torch find its way into more builds … possibly aiding build diversity.

A major overhaul of traits would be nice. They’re all over the place and some are just completely worthless. *cough*Disrupter’s Sustainment*cough*

Some skills could be improved with minor adjustments such as reduced cooldowns and/or shorter cast times. The new Mimic is an exception though and should probably be scraped and redesigned.

I disagree with DE needing to be built into our class.

Instead, I think the solution could be additive; shift most of our grandmaster traits downward, and put DE and an entire line of new clone generation traits up on grandmaster in their place. Ideas:

Domination: Create a new clone when you use a Shatter skill.
Dueling: DE, -or- something new like “create a clone when you successfully block, evade, or otherwise negate an attack”.
Chaos: Create a clone when performing a combo.
Inspiration: In this concept, I would like to see DE moved down here.
Illusions: All clone-generating skills gain an additional clone.

This would likely result in more clone generation, but given that other grandmasters would be shifted down to master and some of these traits are more biased toward creating clones in riskier spots, I think we would have more interesting choices available without getting completely overpowered.

Clownmug.8357:

A major overhaul of traits would be nice. They’re all over the place and some are just completely worthless. *cough*Disrupter’s Sustainment*cough*

Some skills could be improved with minor adjustments such as reduced cooldowns and/or shorter cast times. The new Mimic is an exception though and should probably be scraped and redesigned.

++++++++++++1
no other solution. simple & on the dot!

That’s a very nice and interesting idea, Kadj.

I’d absolutely love your Illusions trait.

The only difference I think we have is that I’d prefer that these were options at the Major Adept level as that would make it so you’d have all sorts of options fairly readily available for all sorts of trait setups.

Though my favorite among your ideas, “gain an additional clone”, would probably be too strong at the Adept level.

Kadj.6725:

I disagree with DE needing to be built into our class.

Instead, I think the solution could be additive; shift most of our grandmaster traits downward, and put DE and an entire line of new clone generation traits up on grandmaster in their place. Ideas:

Domination: Create a new clone when you use a Shatter skill.
Dueling: DE, -or- something new like “create a clone when you successfully block, evade, or otherwise negate an attack”.
Chaos: Create a clone when performing a combo.
Inspiration: In this concept, I would like to see DE moved down here.
Illusions: All clone-generating skills gain an additional clone.

This would likely result in more clone generation, but given that other grandmasters would be shifted down to master and some of these traits are more biased toward creating clones in riskier spots, I think we would have more interesting choices available without getting completely overpowered.

I agree, I’ve always thought it would be more practical to add more clone generation than just shuffling around DE.

It would be very nice to not have to burn dodges to gain additional clone generation … extremly nice.

I’d also love it if my clones would share my icons

• Signets
• Mantras
• Boons (don’t have to actually have them … just look like they do)
• World Completion
  … Something I’ve always wanted since some classes can target you, hit an ability, and it auto-faces them … often even jumping them right to you.

[tab][tab][tab] There you are [1 ability] >_>

Although some of my grandmasters are admittedly a little weaker than others, I feel like making more than any two of those traits accessible at a time would be overboard. DE+Domination idea+Either IP(which would probably remain an Illusions grandmaster) or the other Illusions idea would very nearly guarantee us 4-5 max shatters, which would be awesome as much as it would be a bit insane.

At most I might leave only one of them in Master since that still forbids running three of them; possibly the Chaos one as it strikes me as the weakest from a general standpoint, or DE in its new place in Inspiration, since it allows for a decent shatter-minded selection at four points there(vigor on shatter). The latter though hurts the subtle point I wanted to push on opening up both of the current grandmasters in that line being used together…

Reversion of past nerfs would be -IMO- the main improvement on Mesmer as a class.

• For example, the combination of getting shafted by LOS requirements + blind wrecking your illusion summons is pretty insane. Then, let’s add in the patch where clone-death effects were able to be blocked/invuln’d/Aegis’d.
• As I’ve said for months, the combination of Glamour nerfs, Confusion damage and Blinding Befuddlement being given an ICD was unwarranted in the extreme.
• Likewise, nerfing both the invuln and the CD of Blurred Frenzy was over-the-top.
• Yet again, if Shattered Strength at 3 stacks/clone was “OP,” we could have at least attempted a 2 stacks/clone ratio.
• “Hello, Dev-guys? We need to talk.” -Signed, Chaos Armor and Chaos Shield

As far as actually changing Mesmer mechanics?

• Illusions are pretty much paper, for any high-AoE scenario. This would be fine if Mesmer wasn’t defacto invested in an Active Illusions = Damage equation.
  [Even Ranger at least has decent personal DPS, overall. They’re just shafted by horrid AI. Illusion AI works better (mainly due to the focus on one target), but they aren’t near as durable. Not that they should be, mind. However, they should be survivable enough to work with, overall]
  [I understand that this is not as much an issue in clone-death builds … heck, then you want clones popping like soap bubbles when the enemy looks at ’em wrong. However, this does limit Shatter/Phant/(arguably) Lockdown builds. Hard to keep up burst if your “resource” dies on the way to the target.]

• (This is a problem for classes in general) Traits need looked into, and when needed, consolidated. Glamour, anyone? Hell, look at how Mantra and Lockdown traits are tossed all around the place.

• (Also a problem for classes in general) Traits that are plain out BAD need altered and/or replaced. Hello, Disrupter’s. And, let’s not talk about “downed” traits. Relying on being a pube’s width from death for a Trait to be “useful” is just plain ridiculous.

• (Yet another classes-wide problem) Weapons whose design just stinks of deliberate neglect. It’s one thing to try to balance a weapon out to not be overwhelmingly good, but how does one even remotely justify crap like: IMage existing on the same weapon that grants The Prestige?

Meh. Here I go, ranting again …

Some of the nerfs to our weapon skills should definitely be reverted, otherwise I think Mesmer really could stand out if Anet wasn’t so afraid of us.

We have excellent boon acquisition, removal, sharing, and plenty of control abilities. We have everything necessary for a strong support/control role except that nearly everything is just sliiightly too underwhelming to be competitive.

We have a great fun burst archtype in shatter, and I think that should be preserved, but I don’t think Mesmer was ever meant to be a super high damage class. Control, flexibility and utility seem to be more our thing.. We just can’t exactly do our thing with Anet giving these teaspoon buffs.

Granted, when I say I don’t think we should be buffed, I mean that everything that works atm such kittenters should stay the same, but Anet really needs to consider a defining role for us and support it, rather than fear it.

Excellent boon control/removal. Great hard CC. Great soft CC..

What’s lacking?

Terrible clone production. -_-

I’d still love to see the shatter effect not require my illusions to survive running to their target … though we’ve been asking for this for a while.

Not really for tPvP, but overall.

- Triumphant Distortion renamed and changed to give 3s distortion when you take more than 20% on a single hit. ~60 second cooldown.

- Mantra Mastery passively charging one charge every 15 or so seconds along with the cooldown reduction so you wouldn’t have to through the hassle of swapping skills or wasting the final charge when you got 1 charge left on some mantras after a fight.

- Some weak Chaos or Inspiration trait changed into “When you create a clone, you transfer one condition to that clone.” ~10s cooldown

- IC removed. Small reduction to some cooldowns to compensate it.

- Sword #3. Make it usable for 1 second after the clone died.

Just some random thoughts.

I’d like to see more utility and especially stronger utility on the mesmer. Imagine a mesmer that focuses on it’s utilities, plays tanky so he can survive as long as possible and interrupt, strip, cleanse, transfer, decive with actually good results.

Let’s take an example: Nullfield. It’s a laughtable skill compared to other professions. It draws slowly conditions and boons and that’s it. It has a short duration and a long cd. Now imagine it would tick twice as fast and it would prevent the gain of boons and conditions while standing in it. That’s a “oh kitten i don’t want to stay in there” skill.

And all mesmer skills should feel like this.

Chaos storm too, it’s just not that overwhelming as it should be. You shouldn’t be able to act properli in that thing. Imagine it’s duration increased and every 2nd tic is a daze. It needs less rng and more WOAH.

I don’t want the mesmer to become another max dps + some utility profession. It should be the max utility + some dps profession. Right now it is the some dps and some utility profession …

Also:
I don’t mind most of your ideas, Noss … but there’s one I must take slight exception to:

• Triumphant Distortion: Needs the ICD removed, especially since that’s how the trait was originally spoken of.
  [This alone would increase TD’s usefulness. If we then needed something else to work around Distortion in general, then]
• Masterful Reflection: Should apply to any Distortion effect.

But, that’s just my two coppers. /shrug