Guild Wars 2

Hello fellow Mesmers. I have something of a food for thought thread for you. There’s a ton of scuttlebutt currently out there concerning the April 19 balance patch (considering the question of Mesmers came up during an interview of ESL), and a few threads have explored this issue on a macro or holistic basis. For the sake of discussion, and trying to “brace for impact,” I just want to focus on 1 thing that could potentially take a hard nerf with the upcoming patch: Continuum Shift.

So here is the question I am posing to all Mesmers: “What if Continuum Shift takes a hard nerf?”

Worst case scenario and possible solutions.

Unless they completely destroy the ability for it to double cast skills, CS likely won’t be hit enough to be considered trash enough. At most, they’ll make it require more clones for decent cast times.

Instead, I see them nerfing skills unneeded BECAUSE of CS and hurt core mesmer again because of it.

I’m sure there will be as many answers as there are people. Some have learnt to love CS and others still don’t like it. I wouldn’t mind seeing it take some slaps because it feels like a gimmick used either to double up on elites or to double up on shatters. One is very circumstantial and I’m not sure if it is good for the game to have any class dependent on frontloaded elite plays. The second is tied to overcomming the many adjustments (nerfs) to the basic gameplay of the class.

It is also very context dependent since what is skillful timing for some players and some modes makes it a small envelope for other players and other modes (add a bit of lag and many quick plays that involve artsy use of CS become completely ineffective and not just slightly diminished). That is troublesome from a design-perspective: It may be fun to use, but only in ideal situations. If a class’ basic gameplay hinges on that the entire class becomes very situational and that is arguably what has happened to Mesmers after HoT.

Tertially, CS has become the staple mechanic of the specialisation whereas things like alacrity, slow and their interplay with wells and phantasms feel far more conceptually interesting. There is very little we can do with those things now, while they harbour alot of untapped potential (combining existing effects to create effects actually reminiscent of the manipulation of time [which is sort of the backstory]). As it stands we have a function that enable certain plays in sPvP or certain context-sensitive burst combinations.

That isn’t very exciting and the class doesn’t do much more at the moment. So, yes…

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

If ANet is awesome and smart, they’ll take our advice and A) won’t let it work with elite skills and then reduce the elite skills to get in line with the current gameplay so mesmer becomes viable again.

But as far as I know them they might aswell stop after A) … let’s not hope it tough :P

Or they can just leave CS alone and keep it as is. But who am I kidding, Mesmers are going to get nerfed once again.

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

You really have no idea what ad hominem means.

In any event, history has shown that attempts to predict the actions of the balance team are generally futile. Sometimes they’ll do what you expect, and sometimes they’ll do things that nobody asked for or wanted. They’re so out of touch with reality and logic that there’s no point in trying to prepare yourself for what’s coming. Just wait for the patch and roll with the punches.

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

You really have no idea what ad hominem means.

In any event, history has shown that attempts to predict the actions of the balance team are generally futile. Sometimes they’ll do what you expect, and sometimes they’ll do things that nobody asked for or wanted. They’re so out of touch with reality and logic that there’s no point in trying to prepare yourself for what’s coming. Just wait for the patch and roll with the punches.

I know what ad hominem is; you already know that. By stating it again in the manner you just did (“You really have no idea what ad hominem means.”) only reinforces that I know what I speak of. Furthermore, why say that it’s “pointless?” Why, because you have nothing more creative to say, so you state things in that manner to disparage my post. Seems like a classic case of ad hominem to me.
Furthermore, its not about predicting the future, but having meaningful conversations about trajectories. Instead of taking the time to post something meaningful, using your knowledge and experience of GW2 and Mesmers to further this conversation that may result in helping others, you attempt to ruin my post and potentially keep others from engaging.

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

You really have no idea what ad hominem means.

In any event, history has shown that attempts to predict the actions of the balance team are generally futile. Sometimes they’ll do what you expect, and sometimes they’ll do things that nobody asked for or wanted. They’re so out of touch with reality and logic that there’s no point in trying to prepare yourself for what’s coming. Just wait for the patch and roll with the punches.

I know what ad hominem is; you already know that. By stating it again in the manner you just did (“You really have no idea what ad hominem means.”) only reinforces that I know what I speak of. Furthermore, why say that it’s “pointless?” Why, because you have nothing more creative to say, so you state things in that manner to disparage my post. Seems like a classic case of ad hominem to me.
Furthermore, its not about predicting the future, but having meaningful conversations about trajectories. Instead of taking the time to post something meaningful, using your knowledge and experience of GW2 and Mesmers to further this conversation that may result in helping others, you attempt to ruin my post and potentially keep others from engaging.

So ad hominem is the action of attacking the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. You have some sort of weird idea that attacking the argument is an ad hominem, but that’s not the case at all. The fallacy of ad hominem is that you’re attempting to discredit the argument by discrediting the person where there’s no actual correlation between the validity of an argument and the person making the argument.

Nowhere have I attacked you, the person. I’ve called the idea of this thread pointless and silly, and I’ve made arguments explaining that. That’s not ad hominem, that’s called logical discussion.

Lol pyro just let him discuss it dude I don’t know why you have to shut down every single thread. Just shut down the dumb ones like that other balance thread that gave awful suggestions. This is a simple prediction thread, no reason to be so uptight and argumentative about something that is just a prediction. Its not a silly thread its just a thread wondering about continuum shift which I’m sure every mesmer is thinking about. Peace and love pyro not everything is pure logic and fact or whatever

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

You really have no idea what ad hominem means.

In any event, history has shown that attempts to predict the actions of the balance team are generally futile. Sometimes they’ll do what you expect, and sometimes they’ll do things that nobody asked for or wanted. They’re so out of touch with reality and logic that there’s no point in trying to prepare yourself for what’s coming. Just wait for the patch and roll with the punches.

I know what ad hominem is; you already know that. By stating it again in the manner you just did (“You really have no idea what ad hominem means.”) only reinforces that I know what I speak of. Furthermore, why say that it’s “pointless?” Why, because you have nothing more creative to say, so you state things in that manner to disparage my post. Seems like a classic case of ad hominem to me.
Furthermore, its not about predicting the future, but having meaningful conversations about trajectories. Instead of taking the time to post something meaningful, using your knowledge and experience of GW2 and Mesmers to further this conversation that may result in helping others, you attempt to ruin my post and potentially keep others from engaging.

So ad hominem is the action of attacking the person making the argument instead of the argument itself. You have some sort of weird idea that attacking the argument is an ad hominem, but that’s not the case at all. The fallacy of ad hominem is that you’re attempting to discredit the argument by discrediting the person where there’s no actual correlation between the validity of an argument and the person making the argument.

Nowhere have I attacked you, the person. I’ve called the idea of this thread pointless and silly, and I’ve made arguments explaining that. That’s not ad hominem, that’s called logical discussion.

One more time, not much of what you have to say has to do with proving or disproving, you simply make a disparaging statement, whether directly, indirectly, explicit or implicit that’s an attack on the person who raised the question, and in this instance that would be me. I have been doing literary discourse analysis for awhile, there are many ways to state things, as I have just stated, sometimes its direct and explicit, sometimes its derived, implicit. So, in your opening line, how exactly did you expect me to take your statement? Why state it that way? To whom is there no meaningful answer? Why is it pointless? To answer the first question ask yourself, why did I choose to organize my response that way? Did I have to state my disdain for the topic? Did I have to reply at all? To answer the second question, I am the poster, so regardless of what you think, it simply doesn’t need to be stated at all, again the response is deliberate and shows disdain for the post and the one who posts. To answer the third question, any conversation on gaming could be considered pointless, then why engage, why make a statement, you could have simply overlooked the whole post, and not responded at all. You communicate a lot more than you realize, so please, spare me the subtleties, I get it.
So then, ad hominem stands. I was hoping for meaningful dialogue on the trajectory of the April 19 patch as it applies to Mesmer; but more specifically to continuum shift because that seems to be the most logical thing that will change in light of all the complaints be levied against Mesmer. It would be easier to rework CS making it more in line with the other shatter skills, 1st by removing the dual effects, then by giving it some alternative features that makes it just another shatter. What, I could not know, but, again, was hoping for something more than having to sit here and argue with someone that I was hoping to get some feedback from.

As for the thread itself, I’m hoping anet leaves mesmer alone cause I think its perfectly balanced. However, some quality of life changes would be nice like a portal range indicator (ex. Portal becomes unusable after a certain distance instead of me clicking on it and it not working :/) also some love for power mesmer would be nice cause condi mes is definitely not my favorite type of mes. For the most part, I don’t think mesmer needs balancing. I definitely think conditions needs balancing as well as the boon diarrhea that exists now. I could offer suggestions but we all know anet doesn’t care for those anyway.

Points for strawmanning an ad hominem, but hijacking your own thread takes art.

I also think it is too difficult to predict how and where the changes will take place.

Der Buck.5439:

Points for strawmanning an ad hominem, but hijacking your own thread takes art.

I also think it is too difficult to predict how and where the changes will take place.

Really, I simply set out to talk about Continuum Shift. I never saw any of this coming; was, and am, very disappointed by some of these posts. My biggest concern is that Anet guts it like they did Well of Precognition. If they totally remove the “reset,” which is what gives the ability to “dual” cast things like Moa, will it be viable at all in the current schema? Will Chronomancer line be even worth taking then if Continuum Shift is hit hard by the next patch? I was hoping for meaningful discussion, possible trajectories, and solutions in anticipation of the patch; nothing more.

I agree, it’s impossible to know what Anet will do. Anyone who’s followed these themes over the years knows just how fickle, and problematic the internal workings of Anet are, particularly with balance, and particularly with Mesmer.

There’s no telling what will happen, so it seems pointless to postulate. Maybe it’s fun to dream up possibilities for some people, and you’re welcome to it. Same as how people like Pyro are allowed to share their thoughts in response saying they don’t think it’s productive to dream up possibilities, considering.

Anyway, I’ll vouch for Pyro. Knowing him like I do, he’s actually being a stand up participant in this thread. You should be honored.

I also found it kinda ironic how the OP has been accusing Pyro of ad hominem, and has spent the entire time pointing at Pyro personally in all his arguments XD

Oh, and if you want productive: You could have started a thread asking “What SHOULD continuum shift look like?”

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and if you want productive: You could have started a thread asking “What SHOULD continuum shift look like?”

I am truly at a loss. I never imagined a hypothetical consideration would garner this. Furthermore, if I wanted to use the subjunctive mood (potentiality, probability or oughtness) instead of a hypothetical (which is even further removed from an indicative, in this case an either assumption for the sake of argument or hypothetical) I would have put it in those terms. Simply put, productivity could have been achieved by simply stating something in line with the hypothetical posited, nothing more, nothing less.
It really is irrelevant at this point. I did not mean to disparage anyone, on the other hand, I do not like being disparaged either. I do not go around telling people that something they post is “pointless” (it is not pointless to the poster no matter how hypothetical it may be), not my place because it was meaningful to the author. If I want to participate and comment to a topic, I should respect the author by engaging his topic in a cogent manner or I should not engage at all. I do not believe that respect is solitary endeavor.

Soothsayer.9206:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and if you want productive: You could have started a thread asking “What SHOULD continuum shift look like?”

I am truly at a loss. I never imagined a hypothetical consideration would garner this. Furthermore, if I wanted to use the subjunctive mood (potentiality, probability or oughtness) instead of a hypothetical (which is even further removed from an indicative, in this case an either assumption for the sake of argument or hypothetical) I would have put it in those terms. Simply put, productivity could have been achieved by simply stating something in line with the hypothetical posited, nothing more, nothing less.
It really is irrelevant at this point. I did not mean to disparage anyone, on the other hand, I do not like being disparaged either. I do not go around telling people that something they post is “pointless” (it is not pointless to the poster no matter how hypothetical it may be), not my place because it was meaningful to the author. If I want to participate and comment to a topic, I should respect the author by engaging his topic in a cogent manner or I should not engage at all. I do not believe that respect is solitary endeavor.

If it were me, I’d of just ignored (left to stand) Pyro’s offering and moved on with the thread :p

Can we make bets for gold, because balance is kind of like a lottery?

5 gold they nerf Blink’s cooldown. Any takers?

Fay.2357:

Soothsayer.9206:

Fay.2357:

There’s no meaningful answer to this question because the question is pointless.

What’s a hard nerf? Duration? Health? Cooldown? Usability of skills? All of the above?

Ultimately, if CS gets nerfed, it gets nerfed. We’ll work with it as best we can. If it gets nerfed bad enough to remove chrono from the meta, then chrono gets removed from the meta and a lot of people probably either switch class or stop playing.

Whatever happens will happen, but unless you happen to have special knowledge about what changes are going to happen, it’s nothing but idle gossip to discuss how you will respond to it.

Here we go with the ad hominem again. I really don’t understand why you have to take that sort of posture. No one saw the Mesmer nerfs that accompanied the last “balance patch” coming, did they? We all feel that Anet over did it and the current meta fell to Mesmer by default, not because it is as solid as other builds, but it is serviceable as a portal and moa bot. Furthermore, getting replies, suggestions and advice from others may help influence others even if the current conversation is speculative at the moment – at least it lays a possible foundation for further discussions after April 19.
Que Sera, Sera then eh? I hope not, really enjoy GW2 and really enjoy Mesmer; I hope I don’t have to give up either any time soon.

You really have no idea what ad hominem means.

In any event, history has shown that attempts to predict the actions of the balance team are generally futile. Sometimes they’ll do what you expect, and sometimes they’ll do things that nobody asked for or wanted. They’re so out of touch with reality and logic that there’s no point in trying to prepare yourself for what’s coming. Just wait for the patch and roll with the punches.

Every post on this forum is useless. Including the one you just wasted minutes typing.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Soothsayer.9206:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Oh, and if you want productive: You could have started a thread asking “What SHOULD continuum shift look like?”

I am truly at a loss. I never imagined a hypothetical consideration would garner this. Furthermore, if I wanted to use the subjunctive mood (potentiality, probability or oughtness) instead of a hypothetical (which is even further removed from an indicative, in this case an either assumption for the sake of argument or hypothetical) I would have put it in those terms. Simply put, productivity could have been achieved by simply stating something in line with the hypothetical posited, nothing more, nothing less.
It really is irrelevant at this point. I did not mean to disparage anyone, on the other hand, I do not like being disparaged either. I do not go around telling people that something they post is “pointless” (it is not pointless to the poster no matter how hypothetical it may be), not my place because it was meaningful to the author. If I want to participate and comment to a topic, I should respect the author by engaging his topic in a cogent manner or I should not engage at all. I do not believe that respect is solitary endeavor.

If it were me, I’d of just ignored (left to stand) Pyro’s offering and moved on with the thread :p

I probably should have let it go altogether, but it became a matter of principle because it’s not the first time this has happened. I was hoping to have some fun with a topic I felt was important to the Mesmer profession with the up coming patch; I just don’t see how Anet can leave CS in its current state and wondered if others were thinking the same thing. So then, I created this thread to see how others were thinking and to see where they might be heading with their builds; so I left the topic as open ended as I could. What I didn’t expect was this to happen, but I do not appreciate people who feel like they should have control over what others are posting, even if they don’t like it – there’s no reason to troll, discredit, disparage.
For example, people who watch the NFL know the draft is right around the corner, how many conversations, predictions, mock drafts are out there? They explore all the “what if’s,” especially if there favorite team is involved. No one who watches sports thinks what they are doing is “pointless,” they roll with it, have fun with it, and join in the conversation giving their opinions as meaningful participants. That is all I was hoping to do here.
I couldn’t let it go because in reality it sure does seem like people will continue to try and “control” threads, and/or posters, they do not like or agree with. Therefore, it became a matter of principle although now my post/thread is in shambles. Thanks for all those who posted positively, I hope you have better success with prediction threads in the future!