Guild Wars 2

What would you do if Deceptive Evasion was moved to Dueling Grandmaster trait? Seeing what they’ve done to IC, it wouldn’t be surprising because its the other Mez trait absolutely everyone uses.

Don’t give them ideas! O.o

I am not sure how many further nerfs I will be able to bear. ^^ (Meanwhile they could fix some still existing bugs and buff some weaker skills/ traits/ etc… after that we might consider receiving the next nerf. xD)

Move to another class or quit game. The iCelerity nerf is good enough (too much IMO) moving DE to GM would just ruin almost every build (few builds go 30 into dueling.) We rely on pumping out illusions and the iCelerity nerf hurt that so DE needs to stay put.

DE used to be a minor master trait it was nerfed to be moved to a master major.

What would I do?

I’d go 30 in dueling. Why? Because mesmers works only on account of the 3 crutches holding it up (outside of a phantasm build, i.e. any build where you don’t use your shatter bar).

Those three crutches?
1) Illusionists Celerity
2) Deceptive Evasion
3) Appropriate Weapon cooldown traits.

As soon as you start removing these from your mesmer builds, your effectiveness at downing and surviving drop off dramatically.

it doesnt really change the shatter build much. youd have to go 10/30/0/0/30

you lose the boon stripping abilities, but gain an extra trait in dueling to use.

possibly worth it.

wads.5730:

it doesnt really change the shatter build much. youd have to go 10/30/0/0/30

you lose the boon stripping abilities, but gain an extra trait in dueling to use.

possibly worth it.

And other builds that run some clone on death traits? Or ones that spec defensively while still taking it. Not worth it at all. If someone wants to go 10/30/0/0/30 they can do it now and get the extra prec. Nerfing DE doesn’t need to happen to have people do it. Now this thread seriously needs closed :/

I got 30 in dueling but didn’t choose DE (anymore).

DE is a very powerful skill (trait). Unlike most other classes’ dodge skills it has no CD. Due to that it would almost be appropriate to move it into higher ranks of traits.

It would hurt Shatter builds, which were buffed in last patch. But it wouldn’t matter for phantasm builds, which were nerfed in last patch.

Nretep.2564:

I got 30 in dueling but didn’t choose DE (anymore).

DE is a very powerful skill (trait). Unlike most other classes’ dodge skills it has no CD. Due to that it would almost be appropriate to move it into higher ranks of traits.

It would hurt Shatter builds, which were buffed in last patch. But it wouldn’t matter for phantasm builds, which were nerfed in last patch.

But it would hurt so many other builds that are neither phantasm nor shatter. Clone on death people only go max of 25 into dueling for confusing combatants. So usually a clone on death Mesmer is something like 10/25/10/0/25 for iCelerity (since it was nerfed YAY for that right?!) Now those people running clone on death traits would be kinda screwed losing either one of their clone on death conditions or their reduced cooldown on summoning illusions. Seriously we have been nerfed way too hard as of late and DE was nerfed already it used to be minor (like almost all other on dodge traits except ele/necro off the top of my head)
Also thief on dodge (all three of them=no ICD)
Guard on Dodge=No ICD
Engi on Dodge=No ICD….

Seriously so many other classes have no ICD on their dodge traits. Why is this conversation going on. Also DE moved higher into dueling would nerf any sort of interrupt build we have (bountiful etc) which just got buffed.

While I think it is ok to move IC to 25 points, the case of DE is more tricky.

If we think of it as too strong a trait for the defensive aspects of dodging, well, no. In fact it doesn’t help us directly survive at all, it is rather weak compared to other traits in that regard.

In turn, it generates clones. While few players will ever fall for them, PvE mobs frequently do plus – and this is the important part I suppose – we get shatter fodder.

In fact, try playing a shatter spec without DE for a bit.

So in total, I’d prefer if DE in it’s current form was removed. Clone-generation (and by extension Phantasm-access) needs to be balanced baseline. Remove IC, remove DE, remove -20% weapon CDs, whatever it takes, but please please please do something about how trait-dependent we are. Traits should feel meaningful, but not this meaningful.

What I’d do to DE (assuming Clone-generation and in fact the whole role of Shatter in our gameplay, because I think that’s where the root of the problem lies) is this:

Deceptive Evasion
20 points Duelling
Whenever you dodge, a clone will dodge in the opposite direction and start using abilities when the dodge finishes. This clone is not under your control and will despawn after 3 seconds.

In other words, it’d be a purely dodge-enhancing move (hence it prerequisites a look at shatter and clone balance). But I’m thinking of a perfect clone-dodge here. There should be absolutely 0 visual indication which dodge direction was the Mesmer and which the Clone until after the animation when one might start moving while the other immediately attacks.
Plus the clone should be a “perfect clone”, meaning it has an offhand, no delay between attacks and it uses non-1 attacks (0 effects except the graphics). So if I stop after the dodge and attack, in fact it’s entirely impossible to tell me apart from the clone.

@jportell
yes, of course it’d hurt builds. But if you’d move all traits into grandmaster, you’d hurt anyone as well. The question would be “what to move into master instead”. probably furious interruptions … better for interrupt builds, or “empowering mantras”, better for mantra burst builds.
But I understand that DE is essential for some builds … but then follows what carighan said … why are some traits so essential for mesmers? instead of just enhancing builds, it completely changes them …

@carighan
I wouldn’t like DE as minor trait now. I want an option to turn it off versus some bosses. (currently I rather activate it versus some)

When removing all those abilities would occur, it’d dractically affect all mesmers. I mean the -CDs … not much. But reflecting focus and deceptive evasion would change alot. For DE they’d need to implement/ change other things to increase the clone spawn.

As for your suggestion … well sounds somewhat ok, but to go one step further … If the clone is killed within those 3s of lifetime, it sound deal quite the damage to the killer (additional to its normal “on death” abilities) OR it should stun the attacker for 2s (like dredge fractals’ preboss’ block).

Nretep.2564:

@jportell
yes, of course it’d hurt builds. But if you’d move all traits into grandmaster, you’d hurt anyone as well. The question would be “what to move into master instead”. probably furious interruptions … better for interrupt builds, or “empowering mantras”, better for mantra burst builds.
But I understand that DE is essential for some builds … but then follows what carighan said … why are some traits so essential for mesmers? instead of just enhancing builds, it completely changes them …

Its not that it would only “hurt” some builds it would completely negate them and make the builds non existent. We are really hurt on pumping illusions out now for non shatter builds thanks to the IC nerf the only saving grace some builds have is DE. You move that you completely negate any hope those builds had of becoming viable with future patches/meta changes. And some traits are so essential for mesmers because some traits are so essential for almost all classes. It is like necro staff greater marks. Usually if a necro has a staff they are guaranteeing they take this trait. If non-phantasm mesmers (condition builds for instance) don’t take this trait they lose a ton of sustain. A nerf to DE would make a condition Mesmer (Palu’s 0/20/30/0/20) completely obsolete because the DPS gets cut in half without illusionary elasticity and the build has to reliably pump out clones through DE for the debilitating dissipation. It’s like ele builds they are severely limited because if you don’t go 30 into arcana then you are hurting yourself. Ele evasive arcana has an ICD because its effects are extremely powerful more so than a mes especially when they are in water.

Do you see why even mentioning another nerf to mesmers especially DE is just very frustrating especially after seeing us get major nerfs patch after patch after patch. I think we have seen enough of those for now.

Navi.7142:

Don’t give them ideas! O.o

+1

But tbh, i’m surprised they haven’t already touched DE in some way.

Being it a IDC (they love that crap) or moving it further.

Its been moved once doesnt need moved again.

My personal favorite is that is found in the trait line that has no shatter support. Power, inspiration, or illusions seems logical, but no….its in the precision/crit damage line.

^
You might be right about this, but …

• If you put all shatter related abilities into a single trait line, you can only choose three of them. So you need to put related trated into multiple lines – like Mantras in Domination Grandmaster, Dueling Adept, Master and Grandmaster and Inspiration Master.
• Precision and Critical damage sure benefit shatters

Actually from a design POV there’s two valid approaches:

1. I got 12 Shatter-traits in the Illusions line. I can only pick 3, so I always have to pick what I want, while losing out on something else. Yet in all cases I play a “shatter spec”.
2. I can spec whatever line I want, every line has 1/5th Shatter traits, give or trait. I can make a shatter spec even with 30 Dueling / 30 Inspiration / 10 Chaos, full shatter trait set. This is as the no-downsides approach, since you can pick favourite stats + favourite playstyle.

Conceptually, the former is smarter as a developer. You can balance inherently strong trait-concepts with a weaker stat or stat-scaling.

The placement infers that we need to rapidly generate clones to get our bleed stacks up fast, which is true.

Despite peoples feeling toward the condition we are bound to confusion in order to use shattering as a method of creating condition damage, and due to its duration you need to spam clones as much as possible. So where is the value in that for shattering in shamans or carrion?

What about a power spec that wants to shatter often to boon strip?

If you need your clones to perform their attack functions then you either need signet of illusions or DE. Is that enough choice?

I don’t have an answer or even am convinced its a big issue. I do however believe DE has been the single largest item hampering build diversity.

I would go to 30 to get it.

I really don’t think it will be moved because while we generate clones we loose dodging as defence. Many times when I dodge twice to get clones I’m left in a position where I get hit because I can’t avoid it. Where as IC has no downside.

NemoVonUtopia.4183:

I really don’t think it will be moved because while we generate clones we loose dodging as defence. Many times when I dodge twice to get clones I’m left in a position where I get hit because I can’t avoid it. Where as IC has no downside.

We have plenty of utilities to get out even if we have no dodge tho AND you should use sigil of energy especially when running shatter builds. That said, if they move DE to 30 Dueling i’d have to take it over anything but if they change it completely (like give it a 5-10sec CD) this is a game uninstall without question. Mez is the only class i enjoy playing almost a year after game’s launch and if this class defining trait is nerfed then this class is gone for good. Mesmer relies on illusions for attack and defense, if we have no illusions mesmer isn’t mesmer anymore.

I guess I was over exaggerating because I run blink and often have phase retreat. DE was one of the traits I was looking forward to when leveling and what really made mesmers so much more fun.

the only nerfs i could see them doing is increasing the cool downs on some traits and removing the break stun application on one or two abilities and adding them somewhere else.

Evo Sapien.5298:

I would go to 30 to get it.

^
that would probably lock my mesmer to 10 30 0 0 30 forever though..

Well, first of all: i would be completely kittened for them nerfing another trait like that.
secondly: i would take 30 duelling in shatter builds.
sometimes when im in the mood i run 10/30/0/0/30 anyway, but moving deceptive evasion to grandmaster would jsut decrease build diversity even more :P

It would mean I could no longer remove boons with my shatter spec.
Meh, if you feel that shatter spec is too strong then just simply reduce it’s damage. Don’t fix whats not broken:
-shatter spec is fun to play as and it’s also intense to play against it. That’s not broken, don’t fix.
-some may think that the damage is too much. Fix if you think so.

I’d be locked into 10/30/0/0/30 if they did this.

Hell would freeze over.

I would be sad :’(

As if Condi builds aren’t already bum-shagged into 0/20/20/0/20 +10 spare as is … that’d really wreck things. Screwball thing is, way ANet glad-happy nerfs things that’re decried as “ZOMG! OP!!!,” I could almost see that being the 7/29 Nerf.

I am currently leveling my Mesmer, at level 72 at the moment.
Currently my build is 10/10/16/0/25

I used to go deep into Dueling for DE which at the time was pivotal for my build. Currently though it would be more of a hindrance then a benefit. I use Scepter and need my clones/phantoms to be as close to my target as possible. I use Decoy and Mass Invis if i need to create space/escape and i use Staff #2 for that extra space creator.

As much as DE was vital to my previous build, its not so much wanted currently. When i get to 80 i might go 10/20/15/0/25 to see whakittens like. Currently my traits are – IV in Domination, II in Dueling, V in Chaos and III, X in Illusions