Guild Wars 2

I arrived in Divinity’s Reach earlier today after a dungeon run and I saw several ppl in map chat harping on a mesmer trait simply known as PU.

Sorry to seem so naive of what problems it brings- or does?

I’m not asking why shouldn’t a mesmer use it – but I really want to know is there something wrong with it? is it broken?? or.. whats the big commotion about? Because the ranter was very… upset about the PU trait.

Maybe if someone draws a comparison for me I could understand it better.

PU stands for the prismatic understanding trait that is at the grandmaster level in the chaos line. It extends stealth duration by one second and it grants one of three boons for every second you are in stealth.

Generally the complaining you see about it is from other players who feel it is overpowered. The complaints typically come down to three underlying reasons:
- they just don’t like stealth and complain about any use of stealth (and probably complain about thieves as well)
- they don’t like a particular build that uses the PU trait called the Blackwater build – this build has weaknesses if you bother to learn about it (including just running away) but when people mindlessly attack the clones in this build, they will lose
- they don’t like that one of the possible boons under stealth is aegis – so the Mesmer coming out of stealth will typically get a free block on the first attack

I think that’s a pretty fair synopsis

Ask Hihey
10charachter

The reason many people don’t like it is because it gives a ridiculous amount of survivability from

the stealth-alone is amazing (do I need to explain why?

Almost perma protection (75-50%uptime) – a ridiculous amount of damage mitigation when In stealth or when exiting stealth.

Aegis 75% of the time when in stealth – can be very hard to counter attack as you have to remove that aegis first before you can cc or do a big damaging moveh.(can be amazing) makes it very hard to hit the mesmer in stealth if they have aegis during the time also.(earth quake, fear mark, mesmer great-sword push/focus pull ect)

Regeneration 50% of the time(100% up time if 15 points in inspiration) overall not that noticeable unless the mesmer runs a lot of healing power. However it still adds considerable survivability in the long run.

All while keeping the mesmers offensive capabilities in phantasmal and condition areas intact. In fact it also improves the offensive abilities because there is less of a counterattack you have to worry about. So you can focus more on offense then defense. Along with the added bonus of the fact that clones and phantasms can attack while you are stealthed AND you can summon additional phantasms while in stealth to keep up your dps sustain.

^all that and from a few stealth skills and this one trait. (and any other traits that you get along the way investing in the trait line chaos.)

Put simply the majority of players (mesmers and other class’s) believe the trait is OP. And rightly so.
It is found in the majority of Mesmer meta builds that have the trait points to invest 30 in chaos because of how strong this trait is. Just too good to miss a chance to abuse this trait.

I liked PU before they buffed it a while ago. I had a stealth condition,phantasm,mantra builds and many more. Sadly with how the trait is now….i feel sick using it. Too cheesy. No need to try and survive except to spam my stealth skills.

I think they should nerf/ change how it works.
Would be cool if they increased the interval to 3 seconds and made it give the boon to nearby allies also. Or made it so it will give all 3 boons on entering stealth.

However as it is right now is unacceptable. It’s just a idiotically overpowered survivability staple in the Mesmer meta

The problem comes down to this:

1. Players like to engage in 1v1 or other smallscape PvP, no matter how infeasible it is in RPGs.
2. Mesmers spec PU because it’s so useful in 1v1.
3. People don’t like dying.
4. It’s ANet’s fault (it always is).

Chaos.3579:

The reason many people don’t like it is because it gives a ridiculous amount of survivability…

It’s not even the fact that it gives ridic survivability. It’s the fact that you can achieve such with very minimal skill.

PU is bad because when I kill a hambow warrior with my shatter spec, he says :" you’re pathetic with your PU build". It breaks my heart </3 ( true story, it happened last evening in hot join…)

It’s pretty simple. People don’t like to lose 1v1 fights. PU builds happen to be very strong in 1v1 fights. Therefor, people love to complain about PU.

Nausicca.6038:

PU is bad because when I kill a hambow warrior with my shatter spec, he says :" you’re pathetic with your PU build". It breaks my heart </3 ( true story, it happened last evening in hot join…)

I believe it – I’m hearing this more and more and it’s so ridiculous. Mesmers are now so infamously known for prismatic understanding that any kill is chalked up to using it, regardless of what build you’re running.

Honestly though, Warriors have had it worse with so many being criticized for running their “cheese builds” for months now. I know all’s fair and these builds are available and we play to win, but man – it’s brutal.

Best to just avoid map chat (or ignore comments) and obliviously have fun.

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s pretty simple. People don’t like to lose 1v1 fights. PU builds happen to be very strong in 1v1 fights. Therefor, people love to complain about PU.

this is a very mislead argument pyro

PU in terms of survivability is just as strong in dueling as it is in every other PVP apsect of the game that players can participate in. wvw, small scale fights, gvg, 1v?, roaming, ect.

the only place it is week. or rather pointless is conquest were stealth stops point contesting, and thats not at all related to the trait more so than the stealth mechanic.

the trait needs a nerf. it mindless gives a ridiculous amount of survivability on top of the already amazing survivability of stealth.

there are no counters or tactics that even half of the class’s can use to counter PU survivability, no way to counter disengagement potential, and no way to counter sustained dps potential through illusions while remaining undetectable and untargetable through a long and extended chain of stealths

its just too good with no skill investment needed from its user.
thus why would someone use something thats less effective and takes more skill?
this trait destroys viable diversity

so in order to preserve viable diversity among the users of the Mesmer profession this trait needs a nerf/major functionality change or we will watch as the majoirty of mesmer builds are devolved in to a meta based on utilizing the survivability staple that stealth combined with this trait provides….oops seems this has already happened. just like it happened to warrior.

Chaos.3579:

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s pretty simple. People don’t like to lose 1v1 fights. PU builds happen to be very strong in 1v1 fights. Therefor, people love to complain about PU.

this is a very mislead argument pyro

PU in terms of survivability is just as strong in dueling as it is in every other PVP apsect of the game that players can participate in. wvw, small scale fights, gvg, 1v?, roaming, ect.

the only place it is week. or rather pointless is conquest were stealth stops point contesting, and thats not at all related to the trait more so than the stealth mechanic.

the trait needs a nerf. it mindless gives a ridiculous amount of survivability on top of the already amazing survivability of stealth.

there are no counters or tactics that even half of the class’s can use to counter PU survivability, no way to counter disengagement potential, and no way to counter sustained dps potential through illusions while remaining undetectable and untargetable through a long and extended chain of stealths

its just too good with no skill investment needed from its user.
thus why would someone use something thats less effective and takes more skill?
this trait destroys viable diversity

so in order to preserve viable diversity among the users of the Mesmer profession this trait needs a nerf/major functionality change or we will watch as the majoirty of mesmer builds are devolved in to a meta based on utilizing the survivability staple that stealth combined with this trait provides….oops seems this has already happened.

You obviously haven’t seen the pretty much buff they’re giving PU then…

Chaos.3579:

PU in terms of survivability is just as strong in dueling as it is in every other PVP apsect of the game that players can participate in. wvw, small scale fights, gvg, 1v?, roaming, ect.

Which is why we see tons of mesmers in all these aspects of pvp right? Oh wait…

Chaos.3579:

there are no counters or tactics that even half of the class’s can use to counter PU survivability,

Aside from things like boon strip or aoe?

Chaos.3579:

no way to counter disengagement potential,

PU gives no boost to disengagement potential. 1 second of stealth duration means nothing for a disengage. All disengagement potential for mesmer comes from other tools appropriately used.

Chaos.3579:

and no way to counter sustained dps potential through illusions while remaining undetectable and untargetable through a long and extended chain of stealths

Sustained dps potential through illusions? Don’t make me laugh. You’ve got at best 1 high damage phantasm (since a PU build will be using torch). It takes a second or two of dpsing to kill a phantasm from a PU build, so care to enlighten us as to where this sustained dps potential is coming from?

Chaos.3579:

thus why would someone use something thats less effective and takes more skill?

Less effective at what exactly? PU builds are horrible at active application of burst damage, PU phantasm builds are just as bad as normal phantasm builds in 1vX, they just die slower, PU builds are locked 30 points into a selfish trait line and so offer little utility to groups, where’s all this effectiveness coming from?

Chaos.3579:

so in order to preserve viable diversity among the users of the Mesmer profession this trait needs a nerf/major functionality change or we will watch as the majoirty of mesmer builds are devolved in to a meta based on utilizing the survivability staple that stealth combined with this trait provides….oops seems this has already happened.

Cute. The lack of build diversity stems from the fact that almost no mesmer builds are viable at anything currently, not from the existence of a single trait as you seem to think.

One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class, arguments otherwise make absolutely no sense. Different mesmer builds are good at different things, and people choose them for those reasons. The existence of builds that are good at surviving (PU builds) has absolutely no relevance on the viability of builds that are good at aoe burst damage (shatter) or aoe condition damage (glamour), single target damage (phantasm), lockdown (lockdown) or any others that I’m not thinking of right now. All of those builds are non-viable for separate and distinct reasons. Your attempt to conflate their non-viability with the existence of PU falls flat as a poor guise for your odd hatred of the trait.

There’s nothing wrong with the PU trait, some people just need to get over themselves.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Which is why we see tons of mesmers in all these aspects of pvp right? Oh wait…

1) we do see these PU mesmers in ALL of these pvp areas. AND there numbers are growing in popularity. if you came out of structured pvp and played some wvw once in a while you would see this too.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Aside from things like boon strip or aoe?

2)right..(facepalm…do i really have to aswer these poorly worded and idiotic arguments you come up with?)
does warrior have boon strip?, how about ranger? ele? as for aoe…oh gosh do i rally have to answer this idiotic question. its pretty obvious to anyone that actually plays the game that the abilities to effectively and COMPLETELY counter stealth AND boons or any close effect are only available to less than 4 of the class’s. those class’s also have to then use a build that specifically utilizes several tools that counter stealth and boons (among other things) in order to shut down the survivability that the stealth and JUST THIS TRAIT provides

get the logic yet?

Pyroatheist.9031:

PU gives no boost to disengagement potential. 1 second of stealth duration means nothing for a disengage. All disengagement potential for mesmer comes from other tools appropriately used.

3)lol wow really? there is tons of disengagment potential with just 3 second stealth.
so what about a few 4 second stealths chained together. decoy 4 seconds, the prestige(torch)4 seconds 4+4=8. 8 seconds of stealth 2 skills. really? you are going to tell me that this trait does not allow disengagement potential by itself. HA. god knows what it can do in combination with other skills and tools. keep in mind what the trait can do BY ITS SELF. the real idiocracy is that it does that with minimal resources and effort.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Sustained dps potential through illusions? Don’t make me laugh. You’ve got at best 1 high damage phantasm (since a PU build will be using torch). It takes a second or two of dpsing to kill a phantasm from a PU build, so care to enlighten us as to where this sustained dps potential is coming from?

4)the most common PU build is of course condition (because of that blackwater build i warned you and many others about.) condition in order to be effective simply needs constant applying of high damaging conditions. duh! so because illusions in most builds will apply bleed along with other conditions depending on weapon (staff-blackwater remember) along with the ability to summon more phantasm while in stealth, (you can summon phantasms without breaking stealth (amazing right!!!))
and the fact you can summon clones just by dodging. it simply boils down to allowing the Mesmer to have a constant 3 illusions up constantly applying conditions all while the Mesmer sits nicely in a stealth. this same thing can be aplied to phantasm type builds in that the mesmer can sit in stealth that was initiated by a utility or elite(does not need to use torch) and keep a constant up time of phantasm and by extension good “sustained” damage that cannot be easily countered all while again remaining perfectly safe in stealth.

Pyroatheist.9031:

Cute. The lack of build diversity stems from the fact that almost no mesmer builds are viable at anything currently, not from the existence of a single trait as you seem to think.

5)
lol wow you really take things far too literally. it is a comparison ideology. “why use this when that offers you more and for less?” its a ideology that if the mesmer class was exposed to something so good that EVERY build that could take advantage of it would instead of taking other routes for more diversity. beleve it or not this is something you can see mroe clearly if you look at another class (check my number 6)

Pyroatheist.9031:

One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class, arguments otherwise make absolutely no sense.

6)
healing signet……..must i say more? does that make enough SENSE TO YOU

if PU was more available. as in if it was the first minor trait point in chaos or something of the like in which all builds had access to it. do you really think people would not take it?

Pyroatheist.9031:

There’s nothing wrong with the PU trait, some people just need to get over themselves.

7)
there is most certainly something wrong with the PU trait. i should think you and many other self deceiving people should look at the trait and realize that a lot of their pvp survivability (in all pvp scenarios) has far more too do with that trait then it does with their skill. and put simply they should “get over themselves” and realize that this trait is far more then they are.

I’m wondering why you mentioned healing signet when it has literally nothing to do with the build a warrior could be running. Just like a majority of mesmers run ether feast, or how most necros run consume conditions, a majority (if not all) warriors run healing signet because it’s the superior heal, it’s not the sign of some specific build.

Raunchy.6891:

I’m wondering why you mentioned healing signet when it has literally nothing to do with the build a warrior could be running. Just like a majority of mesmers run ether feast, or how most necros run consume conditions, a majority (if not all) warriors run healing signet because it’s the superior heal, it’s not the sign of some specific build.

Yeah, it’s not exactly the most sensible argument. I’m just too tired to write up another detailed response to his gibberish.

Raunchy.6891:

I’m wondering why you mentioned healing signet when it has literally nothing to do with the build a warrior could be running. Just like a majority of mesmers run ether feast, or how most necros run consume conditions, a majority (if not all) warriors run healing signet because it’s the superior heal, it’s not the sign of some specific build.

the argument is not about builds more so then it is about diversity

pyros argument was “One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class,”

although it does not effect “potential” diversity that does not mean it does not effect what the diversity of builds you will see players using when playing the game.

put simply if a class has access to a build or skill that outshines all opposition then chances are you will not see very often variations that could have taken place. yes the potential for diversity is there but it is not seen.

also there is something you have to consider which is viable diversity. for a example if build or skill A was the average effective build or skill out there and build or skill B was the new build that came in because of a new patch and outshines in effectivness build a. then the viable diversity will be shifted.

as more and more people flock to build B. build A will lose its effectivness in situations in which it fights build B or is compared in effectiveness to it. thus it will no longer be the average effective build and its effectiveness in comparison to the average will be lowered
you can see this in the warrior class now. some builds that were averagely viable then are not nearly as viable now because in comparison the meta warrior has shifted past it thus changing what is average effectivness

Pyroatheist.9031:

Raunchy.6891:

I’m wondering why you mentioned healing signet when it has literally nothing to do with the build a warrior could be running. Just like a majority of mesmers run ether feast, or how most necros run consume conditions, a majority (if not all) warriors run healing signet because it’s the superior heal, it’s not the sign of some specific build.

Yeah, it’s not exactly the most sensible argument. I’m just too tired to write up another detailed response to his gibberish.

funny. you should know that some things will appear like gibberish to those that do not understand it because of a lack of knowledge or intelligence.

Chaos.3579:

the argument is not about builds more so then it is about diversity

pyros argument was “One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class,”

although it does not effect “potential” diversity that does not mean it does not effect what the diversity of builds you will see players using when playing the game.

…snip…

the problem with your argument is that its not the fault of PU that its the best option of the builds. The other builds have been trimed and nerfed to the point where there is no point in using them. The diversity has been killed because everytime we find something that works the devs make a point of carving it out of existance…

Hedger.9261:

Chaos.3579:

the argument is not about builds more so then it is about diversity

pyros argument was “One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class,”

although it does not effect “potential” diversity that does not mean it does not effect what the diversity of builds you will see players using when playing the game.

…snip…

the problem with your argument is that its not the fault of PU that its the best option of the builds. The other builds have been trimed and nerfed to the point where there is no point in using them. The diversity has been killed because everytime we find something that works the devs make a point of carving it out of existance…

i would agree and disagree with this. yes i think the devs have nerfed some unjustified things breaking specific specks and pigeonholing us in to meta builds. however even if those builds were brought back to their viable state PU would still be a issue.
it simply is too strong with very little counters available to some builds and by extension entire class’s to compete with it. and because of this it is destroying the fun of the game for those that face it in the wrong speck which is 95 % of the time.

before they buffed it PU was a solid trait. i used it in a variety of builds. you could say i made a backwater type speck original ages ago way before PU buff along with many other stealth type builds.
however it was not used alot and was a rare sight to see
the reason people did not use it was because it was in the grandmaster section which i think was somewhat unjustified. if arena net wanted to promote diversity they should have moved the trait to the master section. not buff it to insanity.

There is nothing wrong with PU condi mesmers. I am pretty sure everyone complaining about them here has never played one. They do terrible damage with reasonable survivability. A dire condi bunker warrior/ thief has more survivability and twice the DPS.

Honesty a 20 20 0 0 30 zerker shatter GS/S/P build is more useful in a WVW group. If you want to solo roll a thief. They are so much better at it.

Chaos.3579:

Hedger.9261:

Chaos.3579:

the argument is not about builds more so then it is about diversity

pyros argument was “One trait/set of builds has absolutely no significance on the potential diversity of a class,”

although it does not effect “potential” diversity that does not mean it does not effect what the diversity of builds you will see players using when playing the game.

…snip…

the problem with your argument is that its not the fault of PU that its the best option of the builds. The other builds have been trimed and nerfed to the point where there is no point in using them. The diversity has been killed because everytime we find something that works the devs make a point of carving it out of existance…

i would agree and disagree with this. yes i think the devs have nerfed some unjustified things breaking specific specks and pigeonholing us in to meta builds. however even if those builds were brought back to their viable state PU would still be a issue….

If those builds were brought back to their once viable states, then more people would be using them rather than PU builds. You seem to keep willfully ignoring the fact that the reason so many people are playing PU builds is because it’s the only really viable option right now, that makes the class worthwhile to play in at least two areas of the game, wvw roaming and spvp. And as been pointed out countless times, there’s plenty of classes that can take on and beat a PU mesmer if they have any skill at playing their classes. Right now, nerfing PU would not force mesmers to play more skillfully and thus elevate the class as a whole, which seems to be your contention; it would simply make the class even more broken, because there wouldn’t be really any reasons left to choose playing a mesmer over another class, except of course as a portal bot.

What’s wrong with PU?

It’s a grandmaster trait (XII) in the arguably overall worst trait line mesmers have (chaos), yet everyone is running it. That alone should tell you that something’s wrong.

PU is a sad and continuing attempt to hide the fact that the Chaos line has bad synergy, both with itself and the rest of the lines.
PU turns stealth, a mechanic that is not a main feature of the class into a very powerful tool. When a class that’s not based around stealth suddenly gets a lot more of it combined with aegis-regen-prot spam you get a broken class.

calavel.6249:

What’s wrong with PU?

It’s a grandmaster trait (XII) in the arguably overall worst trait line mesmers have (chaos), yet everyone is running it. That alone should tell you that something’s wrong.

PU is a sad and continuing attempt to hide the fact that the Chaos line has bad synergy, both with itself and the rest of the lines.
PU turns stealth, a mechanic that is not a main feature of the class into a very powerful tool. When a class that’s not based around stealth suddenly gets a lot more of it combined with aegis-regen-prot spam you get a broken class.

Except stealth is a main feature of the class. This post is a pretty great example of how people make arguments to nerf something that they really don’t understand.

Joonks

Except stealth is a main feature of the class. This post is a pretty great example of how people make arguments to nerf something that they really don’t understand.

Nonsense.

One weapon skill on base 30s CD. Two utility skills, 40/90s CD. One elite, 180s, obviously not designed for single-target. Not tied to class mechanics in any way. A single GM trait tied to stealth (The dueling stealth trait counter-acts a stealth-heavy build. It’s also broken and has a horrendous CD).

Yes, we have stealth. No, it is not in any way imaginable a main class feature.

The fact that mesmer stealth is 75% utilities and elite should tell you all you need to know.

calavel.6249:

Joonks

Except stealth is a main feature of the class. This post is a pretty great example of how people make arguments to nerf something that they really don’t understand.

Nonsense.

One weapon skill on base 30s CD. Two utility skills, 40/90s CD. One elite, 180s, obviously not designed for single-target. Not tied to class mechanics in any way. A single GM trait tied to stealth (The dueling stealth trait counter-acts a stealth-heavy build. It’s also broken and has a horrendous CD).

Yes, we have stealth. No, it is not in any way imaginable a main class feature.

The fact that mesmer stealth is 75% utilities and elite should tell you all you need to know.

Your argument for why it isn’t a key feature of the class is the same as my argument for why it is. Four different ways of accessing stealth, one of which should really count twice (veil) makes it seem prominent to me.

Not going to argue the semantics of “main class feature” with you so I guess we can just agree to disagree.

Pyroatheist.9031:

It’s pretty simple. People don’t like to lose 1v1 fights. PU builds happen to be very strong in 1v1 fights. Therefor, people love to complain about PU.

Quoting this because it’s true.

Chaos.3579:

however even if those builds were brought back to their viable state PU would still be a issue.
…
however it was not used alot and was a rare sight to see
the reason people did not use it was because it was in the grandmaster section which i think was somewhat unjustified. if arena net wanted to promote diversity they should have moved the trait to the master section. not buff it to insanity.

snip

You have made my argument for me.

If the other build types were made more viable, then you wouldn’t see PU builds at all because its very deep in an otherwise low synergy, unfocused tree. It would literally cost too many points to take in other builds, and taking it forces you into a winning but not very fulfilling play style.

Nausicca.6038:

PU is bad because when I kill a hambow warrior with my shatter spec, he says :" you’re pathetic with your PU build". It breaks my heart </3 ( true story, it happened last evening in hot join…)

This. Being called constantly a PU user, or “noob mesmer” whenever I win is so annoying.

Why do you care?

Let me rephrase that.. You shouldn’t care.

Joonks.7501:

Why do you care?

Let me rephrase that.. You shouldn’t care.

Pretty much. I just chuckle and revel in the stream of tears I leave in my wake…

Nausicca.6038:

PU is bad because when I kill a hambow warrior with my shatter spec, he says :" you’re pathetic with your PU build". It breaks my heart </3 ( true story, it happened last evening in hot join…)

Warriors… /facepalm. Who cares what warriors think?

Hedger.9261:

If the other build types were made more viable, then you wouldn’t see PU builds at all because its very deep in an otherwise low synergy, unfocused tree.

That is not exactly true. The minors do have a very nice synergy. The majors do not, though. It just isn’t that obivous because there are somewhat useful skills on every tier. The traitline could indeed be more consistent besides the ‘Chaos’ theme of randomly doing stuff.

There is nothing bad with PU.

Point of PU is survivability and it’s good for small battles.
I played both shatter and power PU.
And to be honest for me it’s almost same playstyle. (mobility and quick thinking)
But you still need brain to win.
PU can help you to survive but without skills you cannot kill almost anyone
And besides it’s not like we can spam stealth all time as thiefs so i do not see why it’s so OP if we have limited amount of stealth skills

Joonks.7501:

Your argument for why it isn’t a key feature of the class is the same as my argument for why it is. Four different ways of accessing stealth, one of which should really count twice (veil) makes it seem prominent to me.

Not going to argue the semantics of “main class feature” with you so I guess we can just agree to disagree.

My point is that while mesmers (and engineers and possibly other classes, I dunno) have access to stealth/cloaking skills, it is not tied to the class in the way it is tied to the thief. Thieves are the “heavy” stealth class.
PU in itself provides almost as many stealth benefits as the entire Shadow Arts + Actobatics trait lines when you pick all the good stealth traits.
PU provides regen. Thieves have to trait for regen in stealth.
PU provides swiftness. Thieves have to trait for +50% movement speed in stealth.
PU provides protection. Thieves do not have access to this boon AFAIK.
PU provides +1s stealth. This is a thief minor trait (25 Shadow Arts)

I’m not saying classes should be the same or have the same traits, access to the same boons etc. I’m just pointing out that the “heavy” stealth class has to use several traits to get a benefit similar to PU. And since thieves can’t do any damage while they are in stealth, they cannot exploit the defensive nature of stealth as effectively as a mesmer.

calavel.6249:

I’m not saying classes should be the same or have the same traits, access to the same boons etc. I’m just pointing out that the “heavy” stealth class has to use several traits to get a benefit similar to PU. And since thieves can’t do any damage while they are in stealth, they cannot exploit the defensive nature of stealth as effectively as a mesmer.

While your list is a bit inaccurate and partly wrong, you got to keep in mind that Mesmers and Thieves got very different access to stealth. Thieves do get a very frequent access to it while Mesmers have to make quite a big skill/utility investment to make such traits work. This means that traits have to be balanced around the access to stealth and can’t be compared across classes that easily. Mesmers are the secondary stealth class so why shouldn’t they have something like PU?

The ‘out-of-stealth damage’ argument is a bit mood. Mesmer damage from stealth is minimal since it is limited to Phantasms. The benefit of gaining, for example, Backstab as a Thief easily compensates for that. I also never heard about Thieves having issues exploiting their defensive stealth capabilities.

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

We could have better options if we lose target when a clone is created. The main reason why mesmers use stealth skills is because no matter how many illusion you create, the enemy will always have you targeted. So stealth is the only way to make them have to find the real one again.

I think it’s generally disliked because power PU builds in particular combine passive external dps sources AND stealth – both of which are generally frowned upon by the community.

I personally just don’t like how PU has narrowed build diversity and how it creates a false representation of the overall strength of the class, when really Mesmers need some serious help, especially in sPvP. I also dislike how PU is going to lead to nerfs of other traits (that were never an issue before) to balance the many builds that use it.

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

What a condescending point of view. You can make the “crutch” argument for any defensive ability or trait. PU really only shines in duels and WvW roaming, 90% of which is dominated by thieves and warriors. I happen to enjoy duels and roaming. Sorry, but I don’t feel like my “gw2 honor” has been compromised when I’m now able to compete with my opponents. When I play PvE, PvP or zerg WvW I don’t trait PU because it’s not useful for those game modes. If it makes you feel better about yourself to play without PU then go for it, but it’s a pretty arrogant mindset to assume PU users are inferior players. PU is a tool to be used, look at osicat – he plays PU, has superior map awareness, understands smart dodging, links weapon skills together effectively, shatters. How can you argue that he’s not using the profession to its fullest potential?

And all this talk about the glory days of when people had respect for mesmers because they played builds which required skill is nonsense. Players of other professions have always complained about mesmers because they’re inherently confusing to fight against.

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Please show us this more viable builds you are talking about instead of criticizing PU and the people that use it.

WhiteRose.6934:

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

So all those players that used other builds before the PU buff are not using PU now because their old builds are viable and more fun right?

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

Shatter specs are not viable when illusions are completely obliterated in the aoe spam-fest of wvw, dont do equivlent damage in the zerk/phantasm pve meta and are hardly more then glass cannons in spvp caving at the slightest bit of team pressure.

Sure shatters work in 1v1, along with most everything mez can do, so why would you hamstring yourself by not using PU? How do you argue against the players that dont use PU as a “crutch” but as a tool along with “map awareness” and “smart dodging.”

PU on its own is not the problem, its a good trait deep in a not so good tree. If other traits were presented to allow other play styles to return you would see PU fall to the wayside. Right now, its not our only option just the best one for the job.

Joonks.7501:

And all this talk about the glory days of when people had respect for mesmers because they played builds which required skill is nonsense. Players of other professions have always complained about mesmers because they’re inherently confusing to fight against.

My guildies and I had a long conversation on this topic last night, and during that i heard this sentiment put in a way that made a lot of sense.

When fighting a mesmer, you’re not so much fighting against the skills of the class or the character but actually the person behind the keyboard.

Fighting mesmers seems to feel very personal to some, where losing can be felt on a level outside of the mechanics of the game

PU is very narrow speced trait. For PvE is meh, for pvp are better options for your team, it works good only at WvW roaming/dueling, and still has major weaknes, running PU makes you very slow, almost all classes/builds can simply outrun you. It is troll build, combined with stealth thief can be very anoying but nothing more.

calavel.6249:

Joonks

Except stealth is a main feature of the class. This post is a pretty great example of how people make arguments to nerf something that they really don’t understand.

Nonsense.

One weapon skill on base 30s CD. Two utility skills, 40/90s CD. One elite, 180s, obviously not designed for single-target. Not tied to class mechanics in any way. A single GM trait tied to stealth (The dueling stealth trait counter-acts a stealth-heavy build. It’s also broken and has a horrendous CD).

Yes, we have stealth. No, it is not in any way imaginable a main class feature.

The fact that mesmer stealth is 75% utilities and elite should tell you all you need to know.

exactly this , if the mesmer is 75% utilities into stealth and the traits rely on stealth, if you observe the 10 20 30 10 or 20 20 30 traitlines, you will only have 1 way to mitigate direct condi damage : Torch or mender purity, null field if you sacrifice blink or decoy. PU condi is a gimmick, because it lacks a ton, too much stealth and not enough pressure (phantasm burst or shatter), on top of that if you do use phantasms, you either sacrifice torch for gs or go sword torch pistol sceptre, in which case you sacrifice burst for survivability. As well mesmer stealth only lasts 6 secs per skill at most, and if they are all out stealth oriented, there is one simple way to beat them : AoE and conditions. a condition mesmer will not survive most of the time against 2 condition classes well played, try fighting 2 engies or necros , it is game, or condi warriors etc.

Hedger.9261:

WhiteRose.6934:

The problem isn’t that other builds aren’t more viable. It’s that other builds aren’t as easy as PU.

Shatter is perfectly viable. Condition builds without PU are viable. The “problem” is that it’s harder and more risky to roam with this way, and people don’t like that. Players want everything handed to them easy mode, and it seems the new mesmer community is quickly going down that same mindset route.

This is why PU is a crutch. Players do well with it, think it’s because they’re a good mesmer so they try something else and fail. “Well PU is our only viable option.”

No. It’s because while you’re using a build that allows you to ignore half of the classes mechanics, and ignore basic game mechanics (map awareness, smart dodging), you progressively become more and more dependent on the build that allows you to do all of this and can’t be bothered to learn anything else.

This is why I’ve said in every thread about this topic: The type of players that this build has spawned are embarrassing to me and if/when the nerf happens I’ll be more than happy to see them drop the class.

I can see the threads now: “PU build nerf! Mesmer destroyed can’t possibly play moving to warrior.”

Shatter specs are not viable when illusions are completely obliterated in the aoe spam-fest of wvw, dont do equivlent damage in the zerk/phantasm pve meta and are hardly more then glass cannons in spvp caving at the slightest bit of team pressure.

Sure shatters work in 1v1, along with most everything mez can do, so why would you hamstring yourself by not using PU? How do you argue against the players that dont use PU as a “crutch” but as a tool along with “map awareness” and “smart dodging.”

PU on its own is not the problem, its a good trait deep in a not so good tree. If other traits were presented to allow other play styles to return you would see PU fall to the wayside. Right now, its not our only option just the best one for the job.

Ty I hate it when people say PU is so embarrassing , it disgusts me, or it is so easy, lol do any of these people remember when staff s/s or staff pistol sceptre, phant bunker builds, phant builds, shatter as well, were all said to be easy mode as well? Do they even remember when Staff sword focus was a broken combination? This isn’t new, don’t say you’re elite because you play shatter or a phant build or some bunker build with perplexity or etc. Warriors now adays run cleansing ire, dogged march, spiked armor, balanced stance and etc. Most lockdown builds on them will melt. Thieves are starting to run more condi geared builds with pistol pistol and p/d perma stealth combo and perplexity. Engies with perplexity and rocket boots. When I go out to roam no one is playing some fancy elite build with high skill, most are using the most powerful builds they can use if they are roaming, try to play shatter against a condi engie and spirit or trap bunker ranger or dual warriors. Most of the times I win in fights 1vx is because of the uplvls or new players using their class wrong or just mindlessly spamming their skills, but when I do lose to 2+ its because they know what they are doing and even PU won’t save me, unless I just chain stealth combos and get out.

Mesmer as a class needs a rework imo, we rely too heavily on phantasms, and if not we rely too heavily on going full condi (Staff torch sceptre variaitons). Don’t say shatter is skillful play, I’ve played all styles and they are all easy to learn, shatter is all about control and getting the phant cycles and going in for the bursts, phant builds rely on building up the phant count and condi builds rely heavily on the bleed duration paired with confusion and torment procs, and vulnerability stacking from staff or pistol or sword. I wish mesmer could do real good damage and actually using the phantasms or clones as tricks and mirrors , rather we rely too much on them for anything, hence AoE will always kill us , we are like rangers except our pets hit harder.

Jackums.3496:

There are certainly ways to counter PU Mesmers, and builds that focus on PU are pretty much solely specific to WvW roaming (stealth prevents point capture in sPvP, and there’s no need for PU’s defense and low DPS in PvE), but it’s blatantly over-powered for a single trait, from a balance perspective. No good PU Mesmer will lose to any other build of any other profession in a duel. They simply won’t. The only even match-up would be a mirror match. That’s imbalance, and nothing like that should exist in the game, even if it’s only a niche build specific to one aspect of one game mode.

Ergo, yes, I believe a nerf is necessary. Though it’s not high priority given there are far more prominent issues with profession balance at this point (Eles being a non-factor in sPvP, Warriors being a primary factor everywhere, etc).

Though a lack of objectivity can be expected given this is the Mesmer forum.

No good PU mesmer will ever lose to another class in a duel? you sure about that? and by PU do you mean the condition builds or the hybrid , or the bleed stacking GS pistol / sword?
I’ll let you in on a little information, the current direction in which classes are moving, thieve will dominate over mesmer, I been testing PU recently, from varying builds and runes, and perplexity condi thieve pistol pistol with dagger pistol perma stealth, can outheal, out evade and out condi mesmers as is, atm i have been more successful with shatter reflect builds, but given where the nerfs are gonna happen, it doesn’t look too bright for us atm. some warrior classes for example GS Axe mace or Axe shield can instagib you and negate condi damage from melandru + lemongrass (-40 and -16 or so stun) + cleansing ire, dogged march, and on top of that warrior’s spirit (25% speed boost on trait). I can go on and on, but mesmer as is, is starting to shine less and less. Other classes , even guards are or will catch up. There is some eles who have beat me while I was using PU , only way I beat them in the end was to resort to using perplexity blackwater combo build, and I hate staff torch sceptre because outside of a 1v1 , you can easily tun away from it, only a fool would auto attack with confusion and torment stacking, yes PU condition is strong, but it is rather gimmicky and in a true sense really slow if your target knows what they are doing.

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers are the secondary stealth class so why shouldn’t they have something like PU?

I’m not saying mesmers shouldn’t have stealth traits. I’m saying PU is too many things packed into one trait. The thief list is just an example of how many traits it takes another stealth class to build the same benefits. It’s wildly overpowered compared to the rest of our GM traits.

calavel.6249:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers are the secondary stealth class so why shouldn’t they have something like PU?

I’m not saying mesmers shouldn’t have stealth traits. I’m saying PU is too many things packed into one trait. The thief list is just an example of how many traits it takes another stealth class to build the same benefits. It’s wildly overpowered compared to the rest of our GM traits.

I don’t see how it’s too many things. You’re speccing into a defensive tree, picking a defensive trait, but that trait giving you defensive boons is somehow ludicrous? Also it’s not overpowered it promotes a different style of play as do all the other GM traits. Although we have a couple underwhelming ones I would say most of our GM traits give great benefits for speccing into it and they greatly affect the playstyle, which is what they were meant to do.

calavel.6249:

Xaylin.1860:

Mesmers are the secondary stealth class so why shouldn’t they have something like PU?

I’m not saying mesmers shouldn’t have stealth traits. I’m saying PU is too many things packed into one trait. The thief list is just an example of how many traits it takes another stealth class to build the same benefits. It’s wildly overpowered compared to the rest of our GM traits.

Ok if you go 30 into chaos traitline, you will be left with either 20 in dueling for DE, or 10 for phant fury you have 30 other extra traits left. The only traits to give damage to phantasms is 3 in domination or 25 in inspiration, but then you have to think about your condition damage and duration which goes well with the 10% bonus from the 25 in chaos. All in all once you go 30 into chaos you are losing alot of potential damage , unless you go into bleeds and condition duration, on top of that if you sacrifice DE, 1vx you wont survive long against good players smacking your phantasms away. only reason PU works as is, is because of the 5 and 15 in the traitline itself, Regen at 75% hp and protection upon regen proc, stealth can proc regen and protection , but the protection has a cd on it. Outside of this mesmer stealth doesnt last long enough like thief’s constant access to it, which makes regen very good for them, mesmers on the other hand have 3-6 sec stealth at times, if you use veil instead of null field, you are sacrficing a vital part of condition clear on yourself. PU isnt that great of a trait once you think about it, but atm it is useful because of the trait synergy.

Malakin.2809:

.
Please show us this more viable builds you are talking about instead of criticizing PU and the people that use it.

So all those players that used other builds before the PU buff are not using PU now because their old builds are viable and more fun right?

The builds I use, all for wvw roaming either solo or in small groups:

10/30/0/0/30 shatter.
20/20/0/0/30 shatter.
10/20/10/0/30 shatter. <—-My main set up.
0/30/10/0/30 condi.
20/20/0/0/30 condi.
10/20/0/25/15 phantasm.
20/10/0/25/15 phantasm.

Also I have no idea what the second question you asked meant. If you’re asking if players don’t use PU then yes, shockingly enough, we exist. Also all of the above mentioned builds have been used to beat PU mesmers in wvw while roaming, so either I’m just really amazing or I’m right to be critical of people who haven’t bothered to fully learn the class beyond PU.

Hint: It’s both Feel free to try them out, I would love to have some better fights to look forward to.