Guild Wars 2

Obviously I’m talking about mesmer build diversity here. Power shatter has been the only viable tPvP build pretty much since launch. So, what would bring other builds in play in high tier tournaments? My take on this is (like it is pretty much the case with all professions, ranger aside) that our profession specific trait line gives too much utility and damage compared to other traitlines. Greatly reduced shatter cooldowns, reduced illusion cooldowns, great synergy with other traits in other traitlines and even more damage.

My own suggestion is to reduce the base cooldown of shatters, but nerf the bonus recharge rate of the Illusions trait line from 5%/pt to 3%/pt (max 30%->18%). Base shatter cooldowns would be reduced as follows:

Mind Wrack 15 -> 12
Cry of Frustration 30 -> 20
Diversion 45 -> 35
Distortion 60 -> 50

This change would bring lockdown and shatter builds closer in terms of the superior utility that shatters bring. Maybe something else needs to be done, like a flat out buff to lockdown? Maybe increase base hp of phantasms so they dont die in 2 seconds to Aoe/cleave? IMO phantasms would still need a redesign to really be useful in tPvP. Relying too much on AI is just never a good thing. What do you think?

Smirgel.9460:

Obviously I’m talking about mesmer build diversity here. Power shatter has been the only viable tPvP build pretty much since launch. So, what would bring other builds in play in high tier tournaments? My take on this is (like it is pretty much the case with all professions, ranger aside) that our profession specific trait line gives too much utility and damage compared to other traitlines. Greatly reduced shatter cooldowns, reduced illusion cooldowns, great synergy with other traits in other traitlines and even more damage.

My own suggestion is to reduce the base cooldown of shatters, but nerf the bonus recharge rate of the Illusions trait line from 5%/pt to 3%/pt (max 30%->18%). Base shatter cooldowns would be reduced as follows:

Mind Wrack 15 -> 12
Cry of Frustration 30 -> 20
Diversion 45 -> 35
Distortion 60 -> 50

This change would bring lockdown and shatter builds closer in terms of the superior utility that shatters bring. Maybe something else needs to be done, like a flat out buff to lockdown? Maybe increase base hp of phantasms so they dont die in 2 seconds to Aoe/cleave? IMO phantasms would still need a redesign to really be useful in tPvP. Relying too much on AI is just never a good thing. What do you think?

i am all for nerfing illusion dmg and buffing personal dmg tbh, ofc many ppl may disagree w me etc

i rly love mesmer, just hate relying on ai a lot

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

Actually yeah this is very true. “Shatter” i.e. IP + faster shatter recharge rate doesnt really bring anything additional to the setup over 4, 4, 6 CI lockdown. Only no-clone shatter (which is only for the self) and more frequent shatters. CI traits, stat, and weapon loadouts are far superior. Even CS with appropriate weapons etc is superior because it offers a counter to thieves.

Interrupt/Lockdown is more difficult, but far far far superior. The feats you can pull with it are almost ridiculous in skilled hands.

6 in illusions brings reduced cd on all illusion based skills ie phants clones and decoy

well atleast 3 in illusions

Swish.2463:

6 in illusions brings reduced cd on all illusion based skills ie phants clones and decoy

well atleast 3 in illusions

Oh yeah, this is a great trait.

On the flip side it’s not an absolutely necessary trait, and depending on what you’re trying to accomplish with your build it’s a HUGE cost.

It does, however, synergize fantastically with IP shatter builds. In the end though the comparison is still 4, 4, 6 CI vs 4, 4, 0, 0, 6 Shatter, one of which is still greater overall than the other.

no i wouldn’t argue that one build is greater than another, some work better for different people. i just wanted to point out the advantage on clones and several recharge rates that IP carries over a CI build.

I don’t do well with CI personally, I’m much better with CS or Shatter.

I think it all comes down to taste and what you want to accomplish personally.

For us specifically? Since this is on the Mesmer forum?

A rather extensive retooling:

• Shatters vs generation needs a look at. The idea that generating abilities should be the F-skills while shatters are weapon/utility skills is a valid one, kittenters aren’t context free and hence not really suited as a class mechanic.
• DE needs to either be removed, moved baseline, or complete rethought. It has too much impact and is too required for Shatter specs right now. Without it shatter would be too weak, hence a complete rethinking of shatter (see first point) might be in order first.
• Phantasms vs Clones need to go back to the drawing board. Entirely. Maybe actually have 2 clone + 1 phantasm slot, phantasm is very strong and depends on equipped weapon, comes out when you use the skill then after that you force the ability usage on a short CD. Clones shatter one at a time (retooled shatter skills, see first point), phantasm would only shatter if no clones are up. Etc.
• Our lines are woefully un-sorted. They need to either be reshuffled to sort by-target-playstyle or by-theme (and then mix playstyles).

It’s really a rather big list of issues for Mesmers. :s

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viable.

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Ross Biddle.2367:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

Actually yeah this is very true. “Shatter” i.e. IP + faster shatter recharge rate doesnt really bring anything additional to the setup over 4, 4, 6 CI lockdown. Only no-clone shatter (which is only for the self) and more frequent shatters. CI traits, stat, and weapon loadouts are far superior. Even CS with appropriate weapons etc is superior because it offers a counter to thieves.

Interrupt/Lockdown is more difficult, but far far far superior. The feats you can pull with it are almost ridiculous in skilled hands.

Okay. Incredible mightstacking, cooldown on illusions, reflect, extra bounce for pressure and burst. These are not to be neglected.

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Neptune.2570:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Gotta agree with this guy if I am at range and not fighting on the point I can kill cele classes – which is why Shatter> CI

CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless

The biggest reason Shatter > CI is being able to use the shatter skills without any clones or illusions – For example you just MW for a burst and you get counter pressured and want to use F4 but do not have any clones up

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff

Just my 2c

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

What the hell? On what planet?

Narkodx.1472:

Neptune.2570:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Gotta agree with this guy if I am at range and not fighting on the point I can kill cele classes – which is why Shatter> CI

CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless

The biggest reason Shatter > CI is being able to use the shatter skills without any clones or illusions – For example you just MW for a burst and you get counter pressured and want to use F4 but do not have any clones up

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff

Just my 2c

Meh. With CS I can achieve the same thing (kill the cele) but I don’t have issue of just laying down whenever that Thief comes along.

As for CI, yes it has less damage but that’s what solid interrupt gameplay is for. If you’re chain interrupting and locking the target out of his skill uses, he’s done for.

As for IP no clone shatters. Great thing to have in your handbag but MoD is just as instant, comes with at least 2 casts, and is on a much short CD than Distortion. And so long as a CI mes has at least 1 clone up (not unlikely, easy to produce), he gets Distortion too. Shatter is so squishy he needs that on demand distortion. CI isn’t so dependent.

Narkodx.1472:

Neptune.2570:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Gotta agree with this guy if I am at range and not fighting on the point I can kill cele classes – which is why Shatter> CI

CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless

The biggest reason Shatter > CI is being able to use the shatter skills without any clones or illusions – For example you just MW for a burst and you get counter pressured and want to use F4 but do not have any clones up

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff

Just my 2c

So many quotes of quotes of quotes..

I just wanted to throw in a little rebuke to a few things:

“CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless”
This isn’t true. CI can burst down just about anyone without much issue. The burst isn’t as instant as a sudden mindwrack shatter but 4/4/6 can still oneshot many builds all the same, and can fight Celestial builds without much issue.

The biggest reason Shatter > CI is being able to use the shatter skills without any clones or illusions – For example you just MW for a burst and you get counter pressured and want to use F4 but do not have any clones up
If you get counter pressured on CI, you have clone deaths (weakness), plenty of boons (including protection), and far more innate toughness than Shatter.. And that’s assuming you don’t just simply interrupt their counter pressure. That’s the other thing.. CI played well leaves VERY little counterpressure room.

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff
You can play CI double-ranged, and it works just as well. I use Sword/Focus -Staff as personal preference for the utility Focus offers.

And on-topic.. I think build diversity would open up once our Grandmasters start to become Grandmaster-worthy. x.x

Ross Biddle.2367:

Narkodx.1472:

Neptune.2570:

Fay.2357:

witcher.3197:

Fay.2357:

Ross Biddle.2367:

Your problem is your assumption as to why only shatter has made an appearance in top torny play. You could make arguments based on Mesmer vs Other classes as a whole, but you can also point fingers at those few top players who’ve run shatter (and not something different) themselves.

I’m curios about what “superior utility” shatter brings over lockdown builds. Is it portal? Because if its portal there’s plenty of room for portal on the bar as those builds aren’t so tied to their survival utils (decoy + blink).

In terms of CC, lockdown/rupt builds far outshine anything a typical shatter build can hope to dream of bringing to the table. Shatter is AoE burst damage with boon strip to keep it sexy. Other than that, Shatter Mes has to gtfo of the way almost all of the time.

The OP is rather mistaken. For a long time now, 20/20/30 CI shatter has been the meta shatter build to use.

It’s so meta that nobody ever uses it in tournaments. The forum fandom of ~r30 players does not reflect what’s viabe.

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Disagree with this completely. Shatter is actually a huge counter to the cele Meta, if you lose to a cele engi/ele 1v1, you were likely outplayed. It’s funny how shatter Mesmer (The biggest counter to the cele meta imo) hasn’t been able to form a counter meta. The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

TL:DR – Shatter Mesmers are the perfect counter to the cele Meta, but Bunkers have been completely eclipsed leaving the Shatter Mes without the support it needs. A buff to bunker guards will see shatter mes back in the meta imo.

Gotta agree with this guy if I am at range and not fighting on the point I can kill cele classes – which is why Shatter> CI

CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless

The biggest reason Shatter > CI is being able to use the shatter skills without any clones or illusions – For example you just MW for a burst and you get counter pressured and want to use F4 but do not have any clones up

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff

Just my 2c

Meh. With CS I can achieve the same thing (kill the cele) but I don’t have issue of just laying down whenever that Thief comes along.

As for CI, yes it has less damage but that’s what solid interrupt gameplay is for. If you’re chain interrupting and locking the target out of his skill uses, he’s done for.

As for IP no clone shatters. Great thing to have in your handbag but MoD is just as instant, comes with at least 2 casts, and is on a much short CD than Distortion. And so long as a CI mes has at least 1 clone up (not unlikely, easy to produce), he gets Distortion too. Shatter is so squishy he needs that on demand distortion. CI isn’t so dependent.

Exactly shatter > CI

Tanks are boring

Neptune.2570:

The reason is actually because of how much cele bruisers outperform bunkers atm. Mesmer is not a self sustaining profession. At high level team play, you need to co-ordinate with your ‘Carers’ so to speak. And traditionally that’s always been the thief and guard to assist the Mes. The problem is, bunkers have been 100% replaced by cele bruisers, as they hold a point just as well, 1v1/2v2 better, have more mobility, and more dps. This only leaves room for self sustaining professions, hence why we are seeing 4 cele and S/D thief teams (All specs with there personal self-sustain). This leaves a Mesmer in a match-up vs the infamous S/D thief + the combined condi pressure that all cele’s bring and suddenly it’s a tough life for the shatter Mes.

And so this is why the pure shatter isn’t a counter for the cele meta. Kindly recall the fact that 4/4/6 also has access to the exact same utility that makes shatter great against cele builds: boon strip on shatter. It also has significantly more fight control, and that’s why it’s far better in this meta, along with not squishing instantly to thieves.

Narkodx.1472:

Gotta agree with this guy if I am at range and not fighting on the point I can kill cele classes – which is why Shatter> CI

So what you’re saying is… “If I’m able to free cast anything I want from range without receiving any pressure of any sort, I can kill cele builds just fine!”. Do you realize how silly that sounds?

Narkodx.1472:

CI does not have enough damage and is way too reliant on teammates for the burst – CI does not add any damage and if your teammates do not coordinate with you the immob is worthless

CI has plenty of damage. It loses a bit from IP…but it gains more from having reliable immobs to unload burst with. In addition, it’s far more useful to a team than standard shatter because of those same immobs.

Narkodx.1472:

Also the double ranged is superior – CI is better with a focus or pistol I can not give away the damage of GS or the superior defense of Staff

4/4/6 CI is actually often run with double ranged shatter. GS and staff both have a good aoe interrupt, what’s not to like?

Quadox.7834:

Exactly shatter > CI

Tanks are boring

Any time you feel like making a non-banal contribution to this discussion, we’re all ears…

Fay.2357:

Quadox.7834:

Exactly shatter > CI

Tanks are boring

Any time you feel like making a non-banal contribution to this discussion, we’re all ears…

Good job at not spotting the joke.
Anyway, just might want to answer my previous question: on what planet are you currently residing where CI is current meta? Or maybe you used a time machine, i wouldn’t know! =)

Fay.2357:

Barely anyone uses mesmers at all in tounaments. What is viable is simply what works best in the team comps that exist today, and glassy burst shatter isn’t that effective against cele groups.

Helseth misha zeromis supcutie to name a few. But you are right Mesmer isn’t as common as cele ele or cele engi.

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

You are mistaken

Quadox.7834:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

You are mistaken

I’d like to catch some footage in that case. What was the last tourney they were playing Mes in?

Edit: Wait a minute waitaminute… You’re telling me 4 people who’ve played Shatter for like.. ever, are deciding the Meta for Mesmer? I know for a fact Misha has played some lockdown builds in tourneys.

EditEdit: Saw the clips. I am totally mistaken!

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

You are mistaken

I’d like to catch some footage in that case. What was the last tourney they were playing Mes in?

Edit: Wait a minute waitaminute… You’re telling me 4 people are deciding the Meta for Mesmer?

The last ESL yesterday included Misha on Mes

Supcutie’s team defeated DoD AND Ellusive eventually losing to Abjured (who doesn’t)

He was using Mes

Believe it or not when I play Warr/Ele Celestial I can literally ignore mesmers for 5-10 seconds the damage is pathetic these days or sustain is OP whatever you want to say

Shatter is not “slightly” more damage it was WAY more damage – not even close

Narkodx.1472:

Believe it or not when I play Warr/Ele Celestial I can literally ignore mesmers for 5-10 seconds the damage is pathetic these days or sustain is OP whatever you want to say

Shatter is not “slightly” more damage it was WAY more damage – not even close

If the damage was not even close, you weren’t playing good CI Mesmer.

… Unfortunately good CI Mesmer are actually rather rare. A bad/average shatter Mesmer can still land a decent burst. A bad/average CI Mesmer.. can’t, really.

Narkodx.1472:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

You are mistaken

I’d like to catch some footage in that case. What was the last tourney they were playing Mes in?

Edit: Wait a minute waitaminute… You’re telling me 4 people are deciding the Meta for Mesmer?

The last ESL yesterday included Misha on Mes

Supcutie’s team defeated DoD AND Ellusive eventually losing to Abjured (who doesn’t)

He was using Mes

I saw. And I stand humbly corrected =P

I’m going to throw in my 2c on this topic.
Imo who you are fighting has a lot to do with why shatter is better than ci. Speaking from my own experience , the real good bunkers from top premades are not the same as your standard guys . They are just slightly better , how much better? To me they are about 15-20% harder to kill. That 15-20% imo is more or less the difference between CI and Shatter.
Shatter hits about 15-20% harder and is 15-20% softer than CI.
I run a build more like CI than shatter, in 95% of my matches I do just fine vs cele bunkers. But I have to say when I face the real good players from real good premades. I feel I just don’t have enough DPS to make a difference. Sure give me enough time I WILL wear down a bunker but the amount of time it takes is just TOO long . As a roaming dps mesmer’s job is to win 1 v 1 or finish any 2 v1 or 3 v 2 in your favour as fast as possible. I feel my dps is just not getting the job done vs the high end players, that extra 15-20% damage would make all the difference. However I still don’t run shatter because I’m just not good enough to use it as solo Q , way too unforgiving. Like I said about the damage is good enough for 95% of the matches anyway :P

Mogar.9216:

I’m going to throw in my 2c on this topic.
Imo who you are fighting has a lot to do with why shatter is better than ci. Speaking from my own experience , the real good bunkers from top premades are not the same as your standard guys . They are just slightly better , how much better? To me they are about 15-20% harder to kill. That 15-20% imo is more or less the difference between CI and Shatter.
Shatter hits about 15-20% harder and is 15-20% softer than CI.
I run a build more like CI than shatter, in 95% of my matches I do just fine vs cele bunkers. But I have to say when I face the real good players from real good premades. I feel I just don’t have enough DPS to make a difference. Sure give me enough time I WILL wear down a bunker but the amount of time it takes is just TOO long . As a roaming dps mesmer’s job is to win 1 v 1 or finish any 2 v1 or 3 v 2 in your favour as fast as possible. I feel my dps is just not getting the job done vs the high end players, that extra 15-20% damage would make all the difference. However I still don’t run shatter because I’m just not good enough to use it as solo Q , way too unforgiving. Like I said about the damage is good enough for 95% of the matches anyway :P

Pretty much this ^

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Quadox.7834:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

If I’m not mistaken, Helseth, Misha, and Supcutie no longer play Mesmer competitively. Not sure about Zeromis.

You are mistaken

I’d like to catch some footage in that case. What was the last tourney they were playing Mes in?

Edit: Wait a minute waitaminute… You’re telling me 4 people who’ve played Shatter for like.. ever, are deciding the Meta for Mesmer? I know for a fact Misha has played some lockdown builds in tourneys.

EditEdit: Saw the clips. I am totally mistaken!

Many of them have played interrupt in tourneys a long time ago. Helseth played S/f interrupt. They just play shatter now probably because they feel it is better (like in your supcutie interview). =P

pretty much every build need dodge for clone. Make that a minor trait would enable a lot more build diversity.

Mogar.9216:

pretty much every build need dodge for clone. Make that a minor trait would enable a lot more build diversity.

Yes, proabably the best / simplest way to create build diversity!