Guild Wars 2

Note: This post is for PvP only and meant for Phantasm mesmer builds. Also, this post is not complaining against other classes, but against Anet for trying to force Mesmers to shatter with statements like “Mesmers should shatter more”.

Anet is trying to force more Mesmers to use shatters. They say it is the class mechanic. More important that phantasms, or mantras. Personally, I disagree.

I never liked the shatter mechanic. Even now after 3 years of GW2. I’m going to continue to find ways not to shatter. I don’t like the idea of giving up my phantasms (long term damage) for a dubious short term one.

So I’m tweaking my regular phantasm build, but I stubbornly refuse to shatter. I was good with my previous build, and I will become good with this one too!

I guess my primary problem with shatter skills is that they have a cost associated with them. Other classes get additional abilities for free at no opportunity cost. Necro gets a free life bar and new skills. Thief gets a free steal + extra skills. Guardian gets free passive and free active effects, Warrior burst etc.

But as a mesmer, I always felt that my class mechanic was punishing me for using it. I always feel vulnerable after a shatter. I’ve just given up my damage dealing phantasms, I’ve just given up my clones that hide me. Out of all the classes, only the mesmer has to take a risk while using their “class mechanic”.

Now this is a matter of playstyle, but I don’t like risks. I like to grind down my opponent slowly in a vice grip. For this reason I never go Lord during Foefire when well ahead in points – why take a risk when you can win for sure by just being defensive.

Maybe it’s because of my mentality as a chess player – when you have a material advantage on the board, just go slow, exchange pieces and grind the other guy down. The “risk factor” just doesn’t do it for me.

So as a mesmer, shattering goes completely against my grain. First of all, if the opponent dodges my shatters it’s over. I gave up everything to get nothing. Second, even if it hits I want to make sure he’s dead. Sure, I can just stealth but I dislike PU builds as well because I like to fight on point and I have no intention of just giving the opponent free cap points.

I use shatter only – only – to secure stomps. That is the most risk free shatter skill I know of. The opponent will be dead after the stomp and my illusions will die anyway. So I sacrifice them to end it.

Otherwise, sorry but no. I will continue to pump out phantasms without shattering them and I refuse to waste all of it on a “risk/reward” playstyle. I don’t like risk. I don’t like shatters. And I feel that mesmers got shafted for a class mechanic that forces them into a disadvantage while using it.

Anet said that people weren’t using shatter enough. Did they ever bother to think about why they don’t have that complaint for any other class? The reason is that the “risk/reward” playstyle isn’t for everyone. And it shouldn’t be the case that mesmers have to play the risk/reward game.

In the end no matter what benefits you give to shattering, the fact is that it elicits a cost from us Mesmers. And for that reason alone it is unappealing. And also, we are the only class that needs to make this trade off.

P.S: I have nothing against the risk/reward playstyle in general. Guardians can build thmselves as glass cannons and sacrifice defense for offense for example. But guardians can also choose to play in another way. They are not “locked down” into playing a double edged sword.

I refuse to believe that Mesmers are “inherently” forced into a risk/reward style of gameplay. That should be a choice. Not a mandate.

Posted as a comment in: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Patch-Seems-to-have-Halved-Build-Variety/first#post5214875

The analogy of chess is awesome. But taking of pieces can be seen as using a shatter skill. I’m not saying shatter like crazy but why not. When mob is low when you have phantasm recharge up why not shatter they just coming back. It would help to improve your game to shatter strategically.

I didn’t even touch on dazes or when our endurance is low can’t dodge use diversion. I think you are following me though.

denis.9487:

The analogy of chess is awesome. But taking of pieces can be seen as using a shatter skill. I’m not saying shatter like crazy but why not. When mob is low when you have phantasm recharge up why not shatter they just coming back. It would help to improve your game to shatter strategically.

For PvE, sure that makes sense. For PvP…not so much. A shatter skill uses up all three of your illusions and re summoning them back up to a full 3 count takes time. Time you have to spend defending yourself.

PvE mobs won’t dodge your shatters so it’s a pretty safe bet. Not at all a sure thing in PvP…

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

reading this made me take another look at my build. currently im running a 31 mesmer and just unlocked my elite skill slot. When i fight, i dont shatter my clones, i just let them attack and i attack with them. On that note, i believe the trick is to have good weapons and skills to complement that style of fighting as well.

i agree with what your saying but the shatter skill is a one time thing, it cannot be that hard to make new clones after you shatter them.

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

You can use shatters without sacrificing phantasms #mindblown

P.S. I don’t see the point of this thread.

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

I used pve as an example because in pvp/wvw I have not found my phantasms alive long enough to make use of them the way the op describes. Unless on an objective or npc usually with cleaves aoe and actually targeting of phantasms it makes sense to shatter.

Axelwarrior.9084:

You can use shatters without sacrificing phantasms #mindblown

P.S. I don’t see the point of this thread.

Shatters consume phantasms as well.

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

go paly chess or any other class then lol

passive kittening kitten

bhagwad.4281:

Axelwarrior.9084:

You can use shatters without sacrificing phantasms #mindblown

P.S. I don’t see the point of this thread.

Shatters consume phantasms as well.

Then don’t use them while you have phantasms up #mindblown

Again why not use them they will die to a strong breeze. With new traits you can actually benefit by shattering. Currently using Dom/duel/inspiration in wvw. When I shatter I heal remove a condition plus share boons with others. With pack runes fury trait in dueling might from burden skill in Dom I have found I share plenty.

This is why many Mesmer builds use a Deceptive Evasion and Decoy. You blow your illusions for an immediate effect. It might be damage (Mind Wrack or COF), Control (Diversion) or self preservation (Distortion). These are all very useful effects for the short term.

Then if you’re in danger you just dodge, decoy, or use one of your blocks to get away. This generates more clones.

The thing is, by leaving your illusions up indefinitely you’re actually wasting potential. After the initial burst from them they tend to be easily avoided or dispatched. Once your enemies figure out which clone is actually you they’ve called a target on you and will ignore the others. Shattering then using decoy breaks that targeting.

Mesmers are intended to be a high skill cap profession, that’s why our mechanic has give and take. Though it’s not as specific to us as you think. Necros can burn through their life force for damage or a quick fear, or more recently, summoning downed allies to them. Doing so pure DS on a cool down and uses some of their life force. They risk not being able to shroud for protection when they go low due to either the CD or lack of life force. A necro managing that resource and using it effectively is just as important as a Mesmer getting the most out of his illusions and shatters.

With IP baseline now there is absolutely no reason you shouldn’t be hitting shatter. Being able to Diversion a heal instantly or distortion yourself mid stomp is integral to Mesmer play now.

denis.9487:

Again why not use them they will die to a strong breeze. With new traits you can actually benefit by shattering. Currently using Dom/duel/inspiration in wvw. When I shatter I heal remove a condition plus share boons with others. With pack runes fury trait in dueling might from burden skill in Dom I have found I share plenty.

I trait my phantasms to be tougher than normal ones. Also, they give me utility like reflect on the warden, plus they attack more often. My duelist usually gets out at least 2 chains before dying.

And honestly, keeping track of the health 3 phantasms in the thick of a fight is a pretty impossible task for me.

bhagwad.4281:

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

What about when a warrior misses with his burst skill and his entire adrenaline bar is reset and he gains none of the advantage of having used his adrenaline? Is that not comparable to you losing your phantasm(s) when you use your shatter skill? After all, the warrior did invest weapon skill cooldowns on generating the adrenaline, much as you wasted weapon skill cooldowns generating the clones and phantasms to gain the ability to use shatter skills.

I’m sorry, it just seems like you’re trying to make other classes look significantly stronger than mesmers or something to me, as though other classes have some sort of ridiculously unfair advantage.

In your original post you even mention thief steal being “free,” yet steal is able to be evaded and blocked, negating the benefit of using it.

It seems to me like you don’t completely understand how or when to use your shatter skills, and that is the heart of your issue with them, rather than that they’re leaving you vulnerable. The point is to use your shatters on an enemy when they’re vulnerable, not whenever you please (this is how all class mechanics work to varying degrees by the way).

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

Dastion.3106:

This is why many Mesmer builds use a Deceptive Evasion and Decoy. You blow your illusions for an immediate effect. It might be damage (Mind Wrack or COF), Control (Diversion) or self preservation (Distortion). These are all very useful effects for the short term.

Then if you’re in danger you just dodge, decoy, or use one of your blocks to get away. This generates more clones.

The thing is, by leaving your illusions up indefinitely you’re actually wasting potential. After the initial burst from them they tend to be easily avoided or dispatched. Once your enemies figure out which clone is actually you they’ve called a target on you and will ignore the others. Shattering then using decoy breaks that targeting.

Mesmers are intended to be a high skill cap profession, that’s why our mechanic has give and take. Though it’s not as specific to us as you think. Necros can burn through their life force for damage or a quick fear, or more recently, summoning downed allies to them. Doing so pure DS on a cool down and uses some of their life force. They risk not being able to shroud for protection when they go low due to either the CD or lack of life force. A necro managing that resource and using it effectively is just as important as a Mesmer getting the most out of his illusions and shatters.

With IP baseline now there is absolutely no reason you shouldn’t be hitting shatter. Being able to Diversion a heal instantly or distortion yourself mid stomp is integral to Mesmer play now.

You can see in my OP that I already use distortion for mid stomp – it was the one risk free shatter mechanic so far.

As for necros and life force…I repeat – the entire life force mechanic is an extra to the Necro’s usual weapon skills. The life force bar, the entire concept of DS only benefits the necro. The necro can choose to use DS and their life fore bar and their DS skills to get a net benefit.

The Mesmer on the other hand has to shoot themselves in the foot to get the benefits of shatter.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

What about when a warrior misses with his burst skill and his entire adrenaline bar is reset and he gains none of the advantage of having used his adrenaline? Is that not comparable to you losing your phantasm(s) when you use your shatter skill? After all, the warrior did invest weapon skill cooldowns on generating the adrenaline, much as you wasted weapon skill cooldowns generating the clones and phantasms to gain the ability to use shatter skills.

I’m sorry, it just seems like you’re trying to make other classes look significantly stronger than mesmers or something to me, as though other classes have some sort of ridiculously unfair advantage.

In your original post you even mention thief steal being “free,” yet steal is able to be evaded and blocked, negating the benefit of using it.

It seems to me like you don’t completely understand how or when to use your shatter skills, and that is the heart of your issue with them, rather than that they’re leaving you vulnerable. The point is to use your shatters on an enemy when they’re vulnerable, not whenever you please (this is how all class mechanics work to varying degrees by the way).

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

And to close the loop on this increasingly circular argument, not having a risk involve does not make it “free”.

bhagwad.4281:

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

Ummmmmm what? As a thief player I can assure you that if my steal misses or is blocked I am definitely worse off than I was before using it. Steal, in a lot of thief builds, adds a lot to our damage and utility and gives us an item that can give us the edge in the fight.

You are coming across as extremely biased in your view now if you truly believe that other classes who fail to connect their class mechanics are somehow not punished for that.

Honestly, if you can’t see how a warrior who didn’t land his 10k eviscerate and now has to rebuild his adrenaline is in a worse spot than before he missed his burst, then I don’t know how anybody can get through to you. That’s one of the simplest examples available, and you’re rejecting it just because you don’t want shatters to use your phantasms for some reason. Guess what, warrior burst skills come off cool down eventually, and so do your phantasms. Part of developing play skill is using when to use your weapon skills, class mechanic skills, and utilities. If you have a different playstyle that does not require shatters, that’s fine. Then simply don’t use them until you have to. If you don’t rely on them for burst, then don’t click mind wrack. If you don’t care about condition damage, then don’t use cry of frustration. At least diversion and distortion will still have value to you.

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

And to close the loop on this increasingly circular argument, not having a risk involve does not make it “free”.

It pretty much does. If an ability has 0 risk and no penalty for using it, that’s pretty much the definition of free. When you can get something for nothing, that is exactly what “free” means.

Mind you, I’m very happy not shattering. I do not grudge other professions in the least. If I am angry, I am angry with Anet for trying to force Mesmers into shattering. I am perfectly happy without shattering and have been so for 3+ years.

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

If the way mesmer works doesn’t suit you, then play a different class that has a play style that you appreciate more. That’s just logical to me, but I can understand your desire to make your playstyle work on mesmer to a degree.

Phantasms are also a main source of sustained dps which mesmers generally aren’t good at without them. Using up the adrenaline or life force doesn’t slash a necro or warrior’s dps nearly as much as a mesmer would. Warriors and necros are going to attack anyway to build up their meters, it’s not quite the same investment as a mesmer where you’d have to dance around for quite a bit just to get out three phantasms. Warriors and necros just keep rolling their damage cycles and it’s “Oh look, my bar is full.” and it ends up just being icing on the cake for them.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

Ummmmmm what? As a thief player I can assure you that if my steal misses or is blocked I am definitely worse off than I was before using it. Steal, in a lot of thief builds, adds a lot to our damage and utility and gives us an item that can give us the edge in the fight.

You are coming across as extremely biased in your view now if you truly believe that other classes who fail to connect their class mechanics are somehow not punished for that.

Honestly, if you can’t see how a warrior who didn’t land his 10k eviscerate and now has to rebuild his adrenaline is in a worse spot than before he missed his burst, then I don’t know how anybody can get through to you. That’s one of the simplest examples available, and you’re rejecting it just because you don’t want shatters to use your phantasms for some reason. Guess what, warrior burst skills come off cool down eventually, and so do your phantasms. Part of developing play skill is using when to use your weapon skills, class mechanic skills, and utilities. If you have a different playstyle that does not require shatters, that’s fine. Then simply don’t use them until you have to. If you don’t rely on them for burst, then don’t click mind wrack. If you don’t care about condition damage, then don’t use cry of frustration. At least diversion and distortion will still have value to you.

There you go. Steal adds to your damage. Missing steal does not reduce your damage does it? Hence missing steal does not leave you in a worse position than you were before.

In economic terms, there is no opportunity cost to you using steal.

And as my original post states, my primary frustration is with Anet when they make statements like “Mesmers should use their shatter skills more”. I say nonsense, and my post is an explanation as to why.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

If the way mesmer works doesn’t suit you, then play a different class that has a play style that you appreciate more. That’s just logical to me, but I can understand your desire to make your playstyle work on mesmer to a degree.

I said the mechanic of shatter doesn’t fit my playstyle. The mesmer class itself works very well for me thank you very much. Shatter is only one of a mesmer’s class mechanics. I choose not to use it.

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

And to close the loop on this increasingly circular argument, not having a risk involve does not make it “free”.

It pretty much does. If an ability has 0 risk and no penalty for using it, that’s pretty much the definition of free. When you can get something for nothing, that is exactly what “free” means.

Mind you, I’m very happy not shattering. I do not grudge other professions in the least. If I am angry, I am angry with Anet for trying to force Mesmers into shattering. I am perfectly happy without shattering and have been so for 3+ years.

Just going to quote this because it does more damage to your argument than I ever could.

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

bhagwad.4281:

Huygens.4075:

I’m going to be that jerk and point out that a lot of the other class mechanics you point out as “free” are in fact not free.

An example?

Life force and adrenaline?

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

A necro with no DS is absolutely in a worse spot than a necro with DS. A warrior with no adrenaline has to build it back up before he can burst again. Their mechanics have a cost and they have to recharge.

The exact same is true of mesmers. The problem is that you seem to think shatters have no benefit for their cost. In fact, shatters allow mesmers to burst, control a fight, and survive damage spikes.

You don’t understand. As a mesmer playing for 3 years, I ignore my F1-F5 skills entirely (except for stomping). That is because pressing one of those buttons is a risk.

Where is the risk of a necro going into DS?

Come on…this can’t be that hard to understand.

I didn’t say it wasn’t a risk. I said you’re incorrect to assume shattering always leaves the Mesmer in a worse position.

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

And to close the loop on this increasingly circular argument, not having a risk involve does not make it “free”.

It pretty much does. If an ability has 0 risk and no penalty for using it, that’s pretty much the definition of free. When you can get something for nothing, that is exactly what “free” means.

Mind you, I’m very happy not shattering. I do not grudge other professions in the least. If I am angry, I am angry with Anet for trying to force Mesmers into shattering. I am perfectly happy without shattering and have been so for 3+ years.

Just going to quote this because it does more damage to your argument than I ever could.

w.e. Peace.

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. Steal adds to your damage. Missing steal does not reduce your damage does it? Hence missing steal does not leave you in a worse position than you were before.

In economic terms, there is no opportunity cost to you using steal.

And as my original post states, my primary frustration is with Anet when they make statements like “Mesmers should use their shatter skills more”. I say nonsense, and my post is an explanation as to why.

Missing steal absolutely reduces damage, are you completely unaware of the traits that benefit steal? A lot of them contribute to damage. I’ll give you the traits that enhance, and most thieves take a fair few of them depending on their weapon set and whether they run a condi or power build.

Serpent’s Touch – Stealing inflicts poison.
Mug – Deal damage and gain life when stealing (cannot critically hit).
Improvisation – Use stolen items twice, and one random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal (by the way, this does not always benefit thieves, as it can rest a category of which you have no skills equipped).
Hidden Thief – Stealing grants you stealth.
Kleptomaniac- Stealing give you initiative.
Thrill of the Crime – You and nearby allies gain fury, might, and swiftness for 10 seconds when you steal.
Bountiful Theft – Stealing gives you and nearby allies vigor and you rip 2 boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.
Sleight of Hand – Stealing dazes the target and reduces recharge of steal.
Bewildering Ambush – Stealing applies confusion.

So many of those traits, in many builds, are vital in increasing your damage as a thief. If you need me to go into detail on each one as to why those increase damage, or why missing steal and not gaining their benefits hurts your damage, then you’re just being willfully ignorant.

Just as it would be stupid for you throw a phantasm or mind wrack on a target who is block, it’s just as equally silly for a thief to steal to that same target. There is risk vs reward in using steal, and using every time it’s off cooldown will not win a thief a fight, in fact, it is more likely that the thief will lose that fight.

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

If the way mesmer works doesn’t suit you, then play a different class that has a play style that you appreciate more. That’s just logical to me, but I can understand your desire to make your playstyle work on mesmer to a degree.

I said the mechanic of shatter doesn’t fit my playstyle. The mesmer class itself works very well for me thank you very much. Shatter is only one of a mesmer’s class mechanics. I choose not to use it.

To me your playstyle seems to be summoning AI and letting it do the work for you. That’s just my opinion, but if you enjoy summoning things and letting them chip away at your opponent, then there are other classes that have similar play styles (although they probably aren’t that great). Heck, you could play guardian and use summoned weapons, or play turret engineer, or minion-mancer.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. Steal adds to your damage. Missing steal does not reduce your damage does it? Hence missing steal does not leave you in a worse position than you were before.

In economic terms, there is no opportunity cost to you using steal.

And as my original post states, my primary frustration is with Anet when they make statements like “Mesmers should use their shatter skills more”. I say nonsense, and my post is an explanation as to why.

Missing steal absolutely reduces damage, are you completely unaware of the traits that benefit steal? A lot of them contribute to damage. I’ll give you the traits that enhance, and most thieves take a fair few of them depending on their weapon set and whether they run a condi or power build.

Serpent’s Touch – Stealing inflicts poison.
Mug – Deal damage and gain life when stealing (cannot critically hit).
Improvisation – Use stolen items twice, and one random skill category is immediately recharged when you steal (by the way, this does not always benefit thieves, as it can rest a category of which you have no skills equipped).
Hidden Thief – Stealing grants you stealth.
Kleptomaniac- Stealing give you initiative.
Thrill of the Crime – You and nearby allies gain fury, might, and swiftness for 10 seconds when you steal.
Bountiful Theft – Stealing gives you and nearby allies vigor and you rip 2 boons from your target and grant them to nearby allies.
Sleight of Hand – Stealing dazes the target and reduces recharge of steal.
Bewildering Ambush – Stealing applies confusion.

So many of those traits, in many builds, are vital in increasing your damage as a thief. If you need me to go into detail on each one as to why those increase damage, or why missing steal and not gaining their benefits hurts your damage, then you’re just being willfully ignorant.

Just as it would be stupid for you throw a phantasm or mind wrack on a target who is block, it’s just as equally silly for a thief to steal to that same target. There is risk vs reward in using steal, and using every time it’s off cooldown will not win a thief a fight, in fact, it is more likely that the thief will lose that fight.

Oh god, please understand what I’m trying to say. Steal increases your damage. If you could do 10 damage before, stealing allows you to do 50 damage.

Missing steal, does not reduce your damage to 5 or 2. Hence, there is no opportunity cost to using steal.

When you say steal has risk, you are saying “Missing steal will put me in a worse position than I currently am”.

Do thieves have a mechanic that says “Missing steal inflicts 20 seconds of weakness”? Is there a rule that says “Missing steal damages you by 5k”? Do you lose power or condition damage when you use steal?

No? Then steal has no risk.

In fact even if you miss, you get boons on steal. I think you need to understand what I’m trying to say before getting all defensive.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

If the way mesmer works doesn’t suit you, then play a different class that has a play style that you appreciate more. That’s just logical to me, but I can understand your desire to make your playstyle work on mesmer to a degree.

I said the mechanic of shatter doesn’t fit my playstyle. The mesmer class itself works very well for me thank you very much. Shatter is only one of a mesmer’s class mechanics. I choose not to use it.

To me your playstyle seems to be summoning AI and letting it do the work for you. That’s just my opinion, but if you enjoy summoning things and letting them chip away at your opponent, then there are other classes that have similar play styles (although they probably aren’t that great). Heck, you could play guardian and use summoned weapons, or play turret engineer, or minion-mancer.

I’ve been playing mesmer since the GW2 beta. I like how it works, and I’m good at it. I just want Anet to stop tweaking the game to push me towards shatter.

bhagwad.4281:

Oh god, please understand what I’m trying to say. Steal increases your damage. If you could do 10 damage before, stealing allows you to do 50 damage.

Missing steal, does not reduce your damage to 5 or 2. Hence, there is no opportunity cost to using steal.

When you say steal has risk, you are saying “Missing steal will put me in a worse position than I currently am”.

Do thieves have a mechanic that says “Missing steal inflicts 20 seconds of weakness”? Is there a rule that says “Missing steal damages you by 5k”? Do you lose power or condition damage when you use steal?

No? Then steal has no risk.

In fact even if you miss, you get boons on steal. I think you need to understand what I’m trying to say before getting all defensive.

I understand what you’re saying, but you need to also understand that you shouldn’t be bringing other classes up in this discussion to begin with. The comparisons to make aren’t really valid. Yet here I am trying to compare with you, so there goes my logic being sucked into your world I suppose.

Look, a thief is absolutely, without a doubt, in a worse position if his steal misses. Ask any player who mains a thief. If your steal misses, you do less damage than you are designed to do if your thief lands. If your steal misses, you just threw yourself into melee range of an enemy, but gained none of the advantage that you require as a thief to fight your target in that range. There are so many things that can go wrong for a thief if his steal doesn’t land, that simply saying he won’t do the damage he is designed to do doesn’t even begin to do it justice.

I would say you have a point to make that a thief could technically not trait for modifying steal in anyway and still perform, but then my counter argument would be that the strongest thief builds always modify steal in some way, so your point wouldn’t hold water (just saying that before you try that one if you were going to). If anything thieves and mesmers share some common ground there. Both classes are pushed towards using their class mechanic skills to gain advantage in a fight. And that’s probably how it should be.

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

There you go. My point is that other professions don’t have to take risks to use their class mechanic. Mesmers almost always have to take a risk to do so.

Shattering can have benefits. However, it always has a downside. That doesn’t suit my playstyle. I don’t like risks.

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

If the way mesmer works doesn’t suit you, then play a different class that has a play style that you appreciate more. That’s just logical to me, but I can understand your desire to make your playstyle work on mesmer to a degree.

I said the mechanic of shatter doesn’t fit my playstyle. The mesmer class itself works very well for me thank you very much. Shatter is only one of a mesmer’s class mechanics. I choose not to use it.

To me your playstyle seems to be summoning AI and letting it do the work for you. That’s just my opinion, but if you enjoy summoning things and letting them chip away at your opponent, then there are other classes that have similar play styles (although they probably aren’t that great). Heck, you could play guardian and use summoned weapons, or play turret engineer, or minion-mancer.

I’ve been playing mesmer since the GW2 beta. I like how it works, and I’m good at it. I just want Anet to stop tweaking the game to push me towards shatter.

Hey, I can empathize with that. Look at thief traits from the past patch, and then realize that any thief who played P/P pre patch just got left out of this patch altogether and really can’t even effectively play that weapon set anymore. It’s not like your class is the only one that is mistreated on occasion by the balance team.

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

Oh god, please understand what I’m trying to say. Steal increases your damage. If you could do 10 damage before, stealing allows you to do 50 damage.

Missing steal, does not reduce your damage to 5 or 2. Hence, there is no opportunity cost to using steal.

When you say steal has risk, you are saying “Missing steal will put me in a worse position than I currently am”.

Do thieves have a mechanic that says “Missing steal inflicts 20 seconds of weakness”? Is there a rule that says “Missing steal damages you by 5k”? Do you lose power or condition damage when you use steal?

No? Then steal has no risk.

In fact even if you miss, you get boons on steal. I think you need to understand what I’m trying to say before getting all defensive.

I understand what you’re saying, but you need to also understand that you shouldn’t be bringing other classes up in this discussion to begin with. The comparisons to make aren’t really valid. Yet here I am trying to compare with you, so there goes my logic being sucked into your world I suppose.

Look, a thief is absolutely, without a doubt, in a worse position if his steal misses. Ask any player who mains a thief. If your steal misses, you do less damage than you are designed to do if your thief lands. If your steal misses, you just threw yourself into melee range of an enemy, but gained none of the advantage that you require as a thief to fight your target in that range. There are so many things that can go wrong for a thief if his steal doesn’t land, that simply saying he won’t do the damage he is designed to do doesn’t even begin to do it justice.

I would say you have a point to make that a thief could technically not trait for modifying steal in anyway and still perform, but then my counter argument would be that the strongest thief builds always modify steal in some way, so your point wouldn’t hold water (just saying that before you try that one if you were going to). If anything thieves and mesmers share some common ground there. Both classes are pushed towards using their class mechanic skills to gain advantage in a fight. And that’s probably how it should be.

I had to bring up other classes only to make the point that Anet never wonders about the thief “Oh, we need to make the thief use steal more!”. Anet has never once looked at the necro and thought “You know what…necros aren’t using death shroud!”

The problem was unique with the mesmer (as far as Anet was concerned). As far as I’m concerned, I was perfectly happy not using my shatter skills and I wasn’t complaining.

I am complaining now ,only because Anet is starting to tweak mesmer’s skills etc so that we are forced to go into shatter. Other mesmers are feeling this too as you can see in the thread here: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Patch-Seems-to-have-Halved-Build-Variety/first

I think it’s not so different to guardian: if you keep your virtues, you gain benefits over time, if you use them, you get a “burst” of benefits but then no passive before recharge.

I don’t think the discussion makes much sense in PvP. Your phantasms have a big chance to die before they can land a second skill. I actually think YOU are taking the risk by not shattering them.
When you play PvE (for example while leveling), it feels like shattering is a bad idea. Your phantasms give more damage over time than shatter + most mobs are aggro-ed by illusions, so as soon as you shatter, they run straight to you. In PvP, I first thought like you, let’s avoid shatters. But then you see your phantasms dying, and you soon after and you start shattering and you realize it’s way more fun and active

Chronophantasm may change the situation and allow shatters and phantasms to partly coexist.

Btw, I don’t know how efficient it is, but I had fun with some interrupts build in PvP where I didn’t shatter much. I just lockdown the enemy while my phantasms destroy him (+ the interrupts hit fairly hard also). Fun, active and not particularly shatter-based. And it does not seem ANet is preventing you from playing that. As a matter of fact, many lockdown traits compete with shatter traits (especially in domination).

Silverkey.2078:

I think it’s not so different to guardian: if you keep your virtues, you gain benefits over time, if you use them, you get a “burst” of benefits but then no passive before recharge.

I don’t think the discussion makes much sense in PvP. Your phantasms have a big chance to die before they can land a second skill. I actually think YOU are taking the risk by not shattering them.
When you play PvE (for example while leveling), it feels like shattering is a bad idea. Your phantasms give more damage over time than shatter + most mobs are aggro-ed by illusions, so as soon as you shatter, they run straight to you. In PvP, I first thought like you, let’s avoid shatters. But then you see your phantasms dying, and you soon after and you start shattering and you realize it’s way more fun and active

Chronophantasm may change the situation and allow shatters and phantasms to partly coexist.

Yeah, I’d like that chrono trait where phantasms can survive one shatter. As for PvP, like I said I trait my phantasms to be tanky and reflect projectiles. I rely on them for bleeds and power as a hybrid. Shattering them is almost never good for me, and I’ve been doing this for a long time.

As for a guardian, yes of course you lose the passive benefits of virtues when you activate them, but either way you get a benefit. In short – if a guardian’s F1-F5 icons were to suddenly disappear, they would be significantly worse off with no compensation. Hence, the F1-F5 keys directly benefit a guardian – either passively or actively.

A mesmer like me using phantasms on the other hand…it’s as if they F1-F4 keys don’t exist. They neither provide me with a passive benefit, or an active benefit. I play without them impacting my life in any way – save for the sole purpose of invul on stomp.

Silverkey.2078:

Btw, I don’t know how efficient it is, but I had fun with some interrupts build in PvP where I didn’t shatter much. I just lockdown the enemy while my phantasms destroy him (+ the interrupts hit fairly hard also). Fun, active and not particularly shatter-based. And it does not seem ANet is preventing you from playing that. As a matter of fact, many lockdown traits compete with shatter traits (especially in domination).

Yes, that is what I’m experimenting with as well (amongst others).

My worry is more with philosophy and attitude. When Anet says “We want mesmers to shatter more”, what I hear is “We are going to nerf your other viable builds and options and push you into shatter”.

They only removed the clone-on-death because it was cheesy. They didn’t nerf phantasms, quite the opposite.

Silverkey.2078:

They only removed the clone-on-death because it was cheesy. They didn’t nerf phantasms, quite the opposite.

Well, my personal complaint is that the trait that gives fury to phantasms now competes with my piston recharge skills! Not to mention that the latter isn’t even working with the bleeds.

However, I think it’s important to let Anet know for future updates that some people don’t like to shatter (because of the opportunity cost). I’m saying this because the developers have expressed the sentiment many times that mesmers are not using their shatter skills enough.

My post tries to explain why that is the case, and for me, it’s because I don’t like risk/reward playstyles.

I just dislike shatters because its not my playstyle.

I love mesmer for the deceiving illusionist mage. I love confusion & torment & I love relying on clones & phantasms.

I don’t like being just another nuke mage by shattering those clones & phantasms al lthe time.

I liked the MtD shatter in a way coz it also relied on confusion & torment, which I like.

Too bad shatter is the only viable build in PvP.

It sounds like Chronomancer’s Illusionary Reversion and Chronophantasma traits will be perfect for you guys.

The OP is right and I don’t know why all these non-mesmers who don’t know how mesmers function keep saying otherwise.

Phantasms are the majority of our sustained DPS (our personal DPS is weak) and shattering them for burst damage is a significant setback.

To take the thief steal example that was mentioned here, would you use steal if it meant your DPS was cut by roughly 60% initially and slowly built back up to full power after 15 to 25 seconds regardless if you landed the steal or not? Using steal has no setbacks, you are the same after using steal as you were before it if you miss. Shatters cost us greatly with no significant return other than a momentary spike.

This reminds me of Rangers who really hate having an animal partner in combat.