Guild Wars 2

pets are no risk? If you dont like them don’t use them, but their just another source of dmg/ctrl/diversion w/e. No risk again.

I totally agree with the op. As you shatter; either your f skill hit or not; you do get ride of an important part of your dps you have been setting up, and also eventually spot yourself for your ennemies.

As any other class (except engi/ele ofc) , if your F skill miss you just mess up the skill and got a new cool down like any regular skill….

godz raiden.2631:

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

I mean, to be fair, we are the only class with pink butterflies.

The logic in these arguments against Shattering isn’t sound. Yes, you trade your built up sustained DPS for burst and in PvE you’d normally rather keep sustained DPS. Most bosses have an AoE of some sort that can wipe your illusions though, so shattering before that occurs can boost your DPS. If you’re fighting multiple enemies and the one you’re targeting is going to die then Shattering allows you to convert some of their potential into damaging other enemies in the area. When Teq goes down I summon a Berserker on him, then a Warden, SoEther, and a second warden. I summon a third (replacing zerker) when it’s ready. But once he stands up i shatter them.

For sPvP burst is king. Following up a Phantasm’s attack with an immediate shatter and resummons is not a loss – it’s a gain. Yes, you have to resummons but having 3 Phantasms safely attacking a single target for an extended period of time is rare and the protection clones provide is short lived once the enemy catches on to your movements.

It’s no different than Signets or Guardian’s Virtues. You give up a sustained effect for an immediate effect. Signet of Ether is even built around this concept of being an offensive heal.

Dastion.3106:

The logic in these arguments against Shattering isn’t sound. Yes, you trade your built up sustained DPS for burst and in PvE you’d normally rather keep sustained DPS. Most bosses have an AoE of some sort that can wipe your illusions though, so shattering before that occurs can boost your DPS. If you’re fighting multiple enemies and the one you’re targeting is going to die then Shattering allows you to convert some of their potential into damaging other enemies in the area. When Teq goes down I summon a Berserker on him, then a Warden, SoEther, and a second warden. I summon a third (replacing zerker) when it’s ready. But once he stands up i shatter them.

For sPvP burst is king. Following up a Phantasm’s attack with an immediate shatter and resummons is not a loss – it’s a gain. Yes, you have to resummons but having 3 Phantasms safely attacking a single target for an extended period of time is rare and the protection clones provide is short lived once the enemy catches on to your movements.

It’s no different than Signets or Guardian’s Virtues. You give up a sustained effect for an immediate effect. Signet of Ether is even built around this concept of being an offensive heal.

That memser burst in PvP is something you need to land, or else you’ve sacrificed everything for no purpose. If other classes miss with their special mechanic, (adrenaline or steal for example) well…they’re no worse off than they were before. The mesmer loses an existing position to gamble it on a burst.

Second, I disagree that burst is all that matters in PvP. I deliberately play a “non-bursty” style focusing around attrition and sustained damage with condis. Of course, no one is stopping a mesmer from playing “bursty” if they want, but PvP has other means to play as well.

My playstyle is lower risk fights, and slow grinding down. For that, shatters are completely useless to me. Not to mention, I don’t run zerker so my burst damage will again will not be as much as even a single duelist can put out with power + bleeds.

Okay, so the loop i’ve seen from both sides of this argument goes something like “every class mechanic has risk/reward” and “no it doesn’t, illusion shatters have a higher risk than other classes”.

For the thief and warrior, if their steal and bursts miss, they still have their weapon skills to do damage. their damage output from their weapon skills isn’t hampered by the fact that they’ve used their class mechanic and missed.

For the mesmer, atleast 2 out of the 5 skills we have create our damage output (illusions/phantasms). Clones usually have some sort of additional mechanic, which makes using them alright and less risk free, even in the utility slots decoy provides a clone with stealth and mirror image does a slight teleport and produces two clones because it takes up a utility slot. the point of clones isn’t damage, but distraction (their damage does help slightly however), and clones can also be (more) safely shattered, since out damage output isn’t reliant on them. they’re also a lot weaker and generally die to a breeze, making them shatter worthy.

Phantasms are a completely different story. each of our phantasm skills are dedicated solely to creating a phantasm. there’s no extra gimmick with them. there’s no extra personal benefit. we’ve simply created a form of damage output that can be destroyed by another opponent. we’ve ultimately created something that can be destroyed before it can even deal damage. Phantasms also have the same downfall as ANY other skill in that they can be blocked by blind, blocking skills and avoided by dodging or evasion mechanics. Phantasms ultimately have a higher risk than any other weapon skill in the game simply because they can be destroyed before they provide any use for the mesmer. phantasms are also our biggest method of sustained damage. and then our shatter mechanic destroys our weapon skills. no other class mechanic actively hampers the weapon skills of their classes. thieves do not lose initiative by using steal, warrior weapon damage is not lowered by the use of their burst skill. but mesmer weapon damage IS hampered and ruined by our shatter skills, or by the occasional breeze as well.

that was the point that the OP was trying to bring across. of course every class mechanic has a risk reward factor, but no other class mechanic actively harms our weapon damage, our weapon output.

Arenanet also seems utterly confused as to whether they want us to upkeep our illusions or shatter them.

if we take a look at the traits, there are SEVERAL benefits to shattering, including boon removal, self healing, condition cleansing and boon spreading.

then, counterintuitively, not only do we have illusion damage and illusion health buffs, but we also have traits reliant on the number of illusions we UPKEEP. as in the number of illusions we DON’T shatter. if we look at our heal skills, we have an ample example of our skills being harmed by shatters. signet of ether has a passive heal reliant on the upkeep of our illusions, though this is the less egregious of the two, the actual heal isn’t impacted. ether feast on the other hand is a powerful heal by itself, but is improved by illusion upkeep, providing a nearly 7,000 heal (using wiki numbers) which would ultimately mean that keeping up illusions is good, right?

i mean really, the only argument that could be made out of all of this is that the mesmer is a high skill floor and high skill ceiling class. I think the skill floor should be lower and that there should be more viable builds relying on non-illusion/non-shatter builds, but keep the high risk/reward for those who want it.

Oh hey, it’s tobascodagama. Fancy seeing a familiar face in unfamiliar country.

For Dastion’s point, the devs don’t need to change anything to make shattering attractive in the circumstances you describe. Saying “mesmers don’t shatter enough” is either an education thing (e.g. maybe most mesmer players don’t know what Dastion knows), and you should go out and educate people, or it’s a game design thing. Dastion’s explanation of shatters when phantasms are going to die anyway is an example of loss-less shattering, and that will be worthwhile whether the devs change builds and traits or not.

To the OP’s point and the many responses, I agree with the premise. On my non-condi mesmer, I myself prefer sustained-damage with phantasms, with shattering being a supplemental and situational bonus. I shatter when the phantasms will die anyway, I shatter when I need distortion or when I think some confusion will do that enemy thief some “good,” or even when all my phantasms are still on cooldown from an emergency f4 and I just have clones and f1 up.
That aside, all those uses are situational, and given a preference, I would rather leave my phantasms up for the long-term damage.
Anet saying something scary like “mesmer players need to shatter more,” then replacing my preferred phantasm-boosting traits with shatter traits, or otherwise attempting to railroad me into building for shatters, makes me unhappy.

I want to focus my traits on my phantasm damage, with shatter as a nice supplement, not the other way around.

Full disclosure: I spend more time on my clone-condi mesmer than my GS phantasm mesmer, so I’m a bit unusual anyway apparently.

tobascodagama.2961:

godz raiden.2631:

Wait, you just basically said that the mechanics of mesmer don’t fit your playstyle, but other professions’ mechanics do. Then why are you playing mesmer? I suppose you’ll argue that you like the mesmer more than other classes for other reasons other than class mechanics and playstyle, from a PvP/competitive stand point that argument doesn’t really hold water.

I mean, to be fair, we are the only class with pink butterflies.

That’s true. I concede. Phantasms should not be destroyed by shatter skills. Had the OP just said this, I would have agreed. :P

castlemanic.3198:

Phantasms are a completely different story. each of our phantasm skills are dedicated solely to creating a phantasm. there’s no extra gimmick with them. there’s no extra personal benefit. we’ve simply created a form of damage output that can be destroyed by another opponent. we’ve ultimately created something that can be destroyed before it can even deal damage. Phantasms also have the same downfall as ANY other skill in that they can be blocked by blind, blocking skills and avoided by dodging or evasion mechanics. Phantasms ultimately have a higher risk than any other weapon skill in the game simply because they can be destroyed before they provide any use for the mesmer. phantasms are also our biggest method of sustained damage. and then our shatter mechanic destroys our weapon skills. no other class mechanic actively hampers the weapon skills of their classes. thieves do not lose initiative by using steal, warrior weapon damage is not lowered by the use of their burst skill. but mesmer weapon damage IS hampered and ruined by our shatter skills, or by the occasional breeze as well.

Phantasms attack as soon as you summon them. You hit the button and they pop up and do damage like a weapon skill. At that point they sit there and wait for their cooldowns. You’ve already gotten the “weapon damage” out of them. Now they’re just waiting like you would wait for a weapon cooldown.

At this point you can either wait it out, giving you more sustained DPS but risking them dying and doing nothing else, or you can shatter them for an immediate effect, but have to wait for a potentially longer cooldown (the actual summon).

In PVE you wait because sustained DPS is all that matters. In PVP what matters is killing your opponent. Why would you sit there waiting 10 seconds for Phantasms, potentially giving your opponent time to recover, when Mind Wrack could kill them right now? If you can do suffient burst to someone and control the fight effectively, you actually don’t need much sustained pressure to finish them off.

There may be a downside to shattering, but what’s more important is that it’s a net benefit if you do it properly. If you don’t then that’s on you.

I’m mainly a phantasm player, I play other builds too, but I love phantasm. While I don’t refuse to shatter, I totally agree with OP.

The risk to shatter for the mesmer, in comparison to other class mechanic, is higher. Yes other classes can miss their class mechanic, but they don’t lose their sustain, which phantasms are. Most of classes mechanics are fire and forget, but mesmer are ’’crippled’’ by using it. Having IP and higher clones generations with this patch really helped in general to remove that crippling feeling.

IMO ANet should give love to both builds : shatter and phantasm. Even in condition mesmer, you have 2 decisions to take in consideration : Should I shatter to put more confusion and torment or should I leave my phantasm here so they can stack bleed ? Should I take Phantasmal Haste so my iDuelist recharge its skill faster or MtD ?

I’d like to input my thoughts but would you mind linking your build bhagwad?

I’m curious to see what exactly you’re running that wouldn’t benefit from shattering.

Huygens.4075:

Phantasms attack as soon as you summon them. You hit the button and they pop up and do damage like a weapon skill. At that point they sit there and wait for their cooldowns. You’ve already gotten the “weapon damage” out of them. Now they’re just waiting like you would wait for a weapon cooldown.

At this point you can either wait it out, giving you more sustained DPS but risking them dying and doing nothing else, or you can shatter them for an immediate effect, but have to wait for a potentially longer cooldown (the actual summon).

In PVE you wait because sustained DPS is all that matters. In PVP what matters is killing your opponent. Why would you sit there waiting 10 seconds for Phantasms, potentially giving your opponent time to recover, when Mind Wrack could kill them right now? If you can do suffient burst to someone and control the fight effectively, you actually don’t need much sustained pressure to finish them off.

There may be a downside to shattering, but what’s more important is that it’s a net benefit if you do it properly. If you don’t then that’s on you.

That’s actually a fair point to be honest, but shattering shouldn’t NEED to be a part of the mesmer’s attack pattern.

This argument is almost laughable.

I don’t understand where you are getting this “thieves that miss steal are no better off” nonsense. Especially now when they are squishier as ever and because of the many buffs to many classes (including ours), a thief that misses their steal is a dead thief. Period. I have PvP’d relentlessly since the patch and everytime a thief tries to steal, I and many other power shatter Mesmers are able to burst them down 100-0 in a second. I think your view on this is extremely biased and without proper knowledge of other classes.

That being said, yes, I do believe that phantasm play is contradictory to shatter play. However once the Chronomancer is released, we will actually rewarded for shattering our phantasms. Between Chronophantasia (sp), alacrity, and the trait we have now that reduced our phantasm recharge when we shatter a phantasm, I think we will have absolutely no problem keeping up sustained DPS.

castlemanic.3198:

Huygens.4075:

Phantasms attack as soon as you summon them. You hit the button and they pop up and do damage like a weapon skill. At that point they sit there and wait for their cooldowns. You’ve already gotten the “weapon damage” out of them. Now they’re just waiting like you would wait for a weapon cooldown.

At this point you can either wait it out, giving you more sustained DPS but risking them dying and doing nothing else, or you can shatter them for an immediate effect, but have to wait for a potentially longer cooldown (the actual summon).

In PVE you wait because sustained DPS is all that matters. In PVP what matters is killing your opponent. Why would you sit there waiting 10 seconds for Phantasms, potentially giving your opponent time to recover, when Mind Wrack could kill them right now? If you can do suffient burst to someone and control the fight effectively, you actually don’t need much sustained pressure to finish them off.

There may be a downside to shattering, but what’s more important is that it’s a net benefit if you do it properly. If you don’t then that’s on you.

That’s actually a fair point to be honest, but shattering shouldn’t NEED to be a part of the mesmer’s attack pattern.

Strictly speaking nothing needs to be a part of the attack pattern, its just a matter of what works best in a given situation. Anet didn’t force anyone to play shatter. They played shatter because it worked best in their environment. If Phantasms were stronger in PvP everyone would use them and we’d see a bunch of “Why is Anet forcing us to run Phantasms?” threads.

Sigh. I’m not gonna read all the responses in the thread cause I don’t know where it actually headed off to. So I’m just going to answer the OP’s question:

When Anet comes into working with phantasm builds, they knew that they are shatter adverse. They know that our DPS comes from phantasms and we rely heavily on them. Now with the new specialization builds, they’re not forcing us to shatter but rather encouraging to do it once in a while. The IP becoming baseline alone makes it encouraging to shatter cause we have technically an “increased amount of damage” compared to the pre-specialization shatter attacks without IP.

And with the new Inspiration traits, they’re reaching out for those who STILL don’t like shatter with other supports. Know that phantasm builds aren’t very good in supports back at the pre-specialization builds. Now with signets becoming more prominent and such, we can support as much as a shatter user and the specialization builds allows some who like to shatter in a phantasm build… to shatter and there are traits that mitigate or remove punishments for those who shatter in a phantasm build.

Think of it as more pieces to play around in a chess game. Before, you can only play this opening, do these types of tactics, and only reach a certain endgame. Now you have multiple ways to open up the game, multiple ways to integrate and fight in the middlegame, and the endgame will be the same… except that the endgame will be a bit more interesting.

And why is there an arguement at all? Phantasm builds can reach out to other branches of mesmeric play, even at shatter and lockdown. We’re pretty static and boring before, now we’re versatile as we see fit. Even the safe play of phantasms have become high skilled.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’d like to input my thoughts but would you mind linking your build bhagwad?

I’m curious to see what exactly you’re running that wouldn’t benefit from shattering.

Well, I’m still figuring out the best build with the new specializations. But used to be celestial with sc/pistol + sword/focus. I use reflects, bleeds, and focus CC to make opponents stand still. Plus my phantasms used to give me regen/protection and I used rune of the Undead for condi damage.

Now with the specializations I’m still wondering on what tradeoffs fit my playstyle best.

Which traits have ya been runnin?

Huygens.4075:

castlemanic.3198:

Phantasms are a completely different story. each of our phantasm skills are dedicated solely to creating a phantasm. there’s no extra gimmick with them. there’s no extra personal benefit. we’ve simply created a form of damage output that can be destroyed by another opponent. we’ve ultimately created something that can be destroyed before it can even deal damage. Phantasms also have the same downfall as ANY other skill in that they can be blocked by blind, blocking skills and avoided by dodging or evasion mechanics. Phantasms ultimately have a higher risk than any other weapon skill in the game simply because they can be destroyed before they provide any use for the mesmer. phantasms are also our biggest method of sustained damage. and then our shatter mechanic destroys our weapon skills. no other class mechanic actively hampers the weapon skills of their classes. thieves do not lose initiative by using steal, warrior weapon damage is not lowered by the use of their burst skill. but mesmer weapon damage IS hampered and ruined by our shatter skills, or by the occasional breeze as well.

Phantasms attack as soon as you summon them. You hit the button and they pop up and do damage like a weapon skill. At that point they sit there and wait for their cooldowns. You’ve already gotten the “weapon damage” out of them. Now they’re just waiting like you would wait for a weapon cooldown.

At this point you can either wait it out, giving you more sustained DPS but risking them dying and doing nothing else, or you can shatter them for an immediate effect, but have to wait for a potentially longer cooldown (the actual summon).

In PVE you wait because sustained DPS is all that matters. In PVP what matters is killing your opponent. Why would you sit there waiting 10 seconds for Phantasms, potentially giving your opponent time to recover, when Mind Wrack could kill them right now? If you can do suffient burst to someone and control the fight effectively, you actually don’t need much sustained pressure to finish them off.

There may be a downside to shattering, but what’s more important is that it’s a net benefit if you do it properly. If you don’t then that’s on you.

It’s the classic risk/reward situation. Sure, I may be able to get off my final burst (presuming you’ve traited your shatters to do high damage, which I haven’t)…but if I miss, I lose a much nicer DPS later.

I personally don’t like to take risks. If we were chess players, I as a phantam mesmer would be Petrosian, whereas classic shatter mesmers would probably be Tal or some other guy who liked to take risks.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Which traits have ya been runnin?

Lemme think..important ones – fury on phants, duelist (no DE), warden reflects, 15% inc phant damage (domination line), inc 15% damage phant (insp line), 20% increase phant health, regen when close to phantasms/ 3 secs of protection from chaos traits (minor).

Sometimes I would play with the trait converting 10% toughness into condi – coupled with a rune of the undead, I would get pretty good condi damage + power.

Playstyle revolves around CC with focus and spawning warden right on top of player with iLeap/immob, then sitting inside the warden either healing or benefiting off reflects.

And not stealthing unless I have no other choice. I would stand in the middle of the point with the warden (nice radius). I would have pretty decent sustain, and good defense against thieves (learned over years of play :P )

bhagwad.4281:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’d like to input my thoughts but would you mind linking your build bhagwad?

I’m curious to see what exactly you’re running that wouldn’t benefit from shattering.

Well, I’m still figuring out the best build with the new specializations. But used to be celestial with sc/pistol + sword/focus. I use reflects, bleeds, and focus CC to make opponents stand still. Plus my phantasms used to give me regen/protection and I used rune of the Undead for condi damage.

Now with the specializations I’m still wondering on what tradeoffs fit my playstyle best.

Your next post which I quoted below shows that you don’t want to shatter and that’s fine. However, it’s going to be VERY HARD to make a Celestial phantasm build without using shatters once in a while. You’re not incorporating the condition part of the build, which (I think) is where phantasm builds fall off.

I GOT IT!

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VRFR3d;0VPV11Q7BWV71;9;4STU;0158257146;4TF37K;15NV05NV00s

What’d you think?

bhagwad.4281:

It’s the classic risk/reward situation. Sure, I may be able to get off my final burst (presuming you’ve traited your shatters to do high damage, which I haven’t)…but if I miss, I lose a much nicer DPS later.

I personally don’t like to take risks. If we were chess players, I as a phantam mesmer would be Petrosian, whereas classic shatter mesmers would probably be Tal or some other guy who liked to take risks.

Actually I use phantasm builds to pressure my opponent. They’re forced into either killing my phantasms, which I can easily recharge, or deal with me and get blasted away by my duelists. I’m very offensive when it comes to a naturally defensive gameplay lol

Titus.2085:

bhagwad.4281:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’d like to input my thoughts but would you mind linking your build bhagwad?

I’m curious to see what exactly you’re running that wouldn’t benefit from shattering.

Well, I’m still figuring out the best build with the new specializations. But used to be celestial with sc/pistol + sword/focus. I use reflects, bleeds, and focus CC to make opponents stand still. Plus my phantasms used to give me regen/protection and I used rune of the Undead for condi damage.

Now with the specializations I’m still wondering on what tradeoffs fit my playstyle best.

Your next post which I quoted below shows that you don’t want to shatter and that’s fine. However, it’s going to be VERY HARD to make a Celestial phantasm build without using shatters once in a while. You’re not incorporating the condition part of the build, which (I think) is where phantasm builds fall off.

bhagwad.4281:

It’s the classic risk/reward situation. Sure, I may be able to get off my final burst (presuming you’ve traited your shatters to do high damage, which I haven’t)…but if I miss, I lose a much nicer DPS later.

I personally don’t like to take risks. If we were chess players, I as a phantam mesmer would be Petrosian, whereas classic shatter mesmers would probably be Tal or some other guy who liked to take risks.

Actually I use phantasm builds to pressure my opponent. They’re forced into either killing my phantasms, which I can easily recharge, or deal with me and get blasted away by my duelists. I’m very offensive when it comes to a naturally defensive gameplay lol

50% of my damage actually came from bleeds inflicted by the duelist and the warden (both fast attack rates). I relied on condi damage pretty heavily – 8 stacks of bleeds and confusion used to hit hard against thieves and rangers as well.

Titus.2085:

bhagwad.4281:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I’d like to input my thoughts but would you mind linking your build bhagwad?

I’m curious to see what exactly you’re running that wouldn’t benefit from shattering.

Well, I’m still figuring out the best build with the new specializations. But used to be celestial with sc/pistol + sword/focus. I use reflects, bleeds, and focus CC to make opponents stand still. Plus my phantasms used to give me regen/protection and I used rune of the Undead for condi damage.

Now with the specializations I’m still wondering on what tradeoffs fit my playstyle best.

Your next post which I quoted below shows that you don’t want to shatter and that’s fine. However, it’s going to be VERY HARD to make a Celestial phantasm build without using shatters once in a while. You’re not incorporating the condition part of the build, which (I think) is where phantasm builds fall off.

I GOT IT!

http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=VRFR3d;0VPV11Q7BWV71;9;4STU;0158257146;4TF37K;15NV05NV00s

What’d you think?

bhagwad.4281:

It’s the classic risk/reward situation. Sure, I may be able to get off my final burst (presuming you’ve traited your shatters to do high damage, which I haven’t)…but if I miss, I lose a much nicer DPS later.

I personally don’t like to take risks. If we were chess players, I as a phantam mesmer would be Petrosian, whereas classic shatter mesmers would probably be Tal or some other guy who liked to take risks.

Actually I use phantasm builds to pressure my opponent. They’re forced into either killing my phantasms, which I can easily recharge, or deal with me and get blasted away by my duelists. I’m very offensive when it comes to a naturally defensive gameplay lol

That’s actually close to what I’m running now actually . Pity the duelist trait is bugged and doesn’t stack bleeds like it should. Also, I would use decoy and mantra of recovery instead of the signet and daze.

The problem with shatters is just that re-summoning your phantasms takes very long. Having no phantasms out combined with weak #1 weapon attacks can make you hitting like a wet noodle for quite some time. Also, often times, another attack on your GS or Pistol phantasm would have done more damage than the shatter so there is really no point in doing this at all.
The coming Chronomancer trait that resummons your phantasms once after they shattered should be baseline if they really wanted us to use shatter more often.

bhagwad.4281:

It’s the classic risk/reward situation. Sure, I may be able to get off my final burst (presuming you’ve traited your shatters to do high damage, which I haven’t)…but if I miss, I lose a much nicer DPS later.

I personally don’t like to take risks. If we were chess players, I as a phantam mesmer would be Petrosian, whereas classic shatter mesmers would probably be Tal or some other guy who liked to take risks.

Similar, i use two builds mainly one for phantoms (low risk) and one high risk and a litle handicapped (blurried inscriptions in melee with berserker amulet).

Personally with phantoms i go with only the bleeds (gs and sword pistol).

For survavility i use decoy, blink, mantra heals and the mantra that cleans condis (its slower but with some counterplay you can avoid most cc, still at same skill level a cc player will kill you).

Also celestial amulet.

Waiting for HoT to use phantom shatter.

With the new patch im not sure, since lockdowns in mes have become to easy and that put my build in a litle weaker spot.

Still my other build got buffed now since it can clean condis.

With that one you can choice betwen shatter or not, depending of the opportunity and if the enemy counterplay your phantoms, but its mostly a one hit use for phantoms, or making the enemy waste dodges to then burst him with shatter.

bhagwad.4281:

That’s actually close to what I’m running now actually . Pity the duelist trait is bugged and doesn’t stack bleeds like it should. Also, I would use decoy and mantra of recovery instead of the signet and daze.

The Mantra of Recovery can help boost the Rune of Balthazar proccing burn. But I’m not a use for Decoy for a bit. Mass Invisibility would be better than Time Warp if you want stealth.

Also, we just need to pressure Anet into fixing that stupid bug!

Well in PvP your phantasms don’t last very long to dps. Since clone death traits have been removed, it is better to shatter them than let them go to waste to aoe etc.

Vague Memory.2817:

Well in PvP your phantasms don’t last very long to dps. Since clone death traits have been removed, it is better to shatter them than let them go to waste to aoe etc.

The distortion (if you trait them right) helps them survive better than ever. And by the time your phantasms die, you’re seconds away from summining another one.

Vague Memory.2817:

Well in PvP your phantasms don’t last very long to dps. Since clone death traits have been removed, it is better to shatter them than let them go to waste to aoe etc.

Positioning and the type of phantasm is important. I summon my duelists a bit away from the action – the point based nature of PvP works in my favor. And if it’s the warden, I want him to spawn right inside the circle along with me. Don’t forget he also gas 6 seconds of retaliation which comes in handy often.

That, and the projectile reflect and fast attacks make him quite useful.

Titus.2085:

Vague Memory.2817:

Well in PvP your phantasms don’t last very long to dps. Since clone death traits have been removed, it is better to shatter them than let them go to waste to aoe etc.

The distortion (if you trait them right) helps them survive better than ever. And by the time your phantasms die, you’re seconds away from summining another one.

Trust me Phants still don’t last very long in sPvP even with protection and distortion traited.

Vague Memory.2817:

Titus.2085:

Vague Memory.2817:

Well in PvP your phantasms don’t last very long to dps. Since clone death traits have been removed, it is better to shatter them than let them go to waste to aoe etc.

The distortion (if you trait them right) helps them survive better than ever. And by the time your phantasms die, you’re seconds away from summining another one.

Trust me Phants still don’t last very long in sPvP even with protection and distortion traited.

The distortion and protection help with making phantasms longer. But it isn’t to make them alive like minionmancers. You deal out large amounts of damage over time, which is the point. You pressure opponents with phantasm attacks, not so much to keep them alive. You can resusmmon them easily by the time you already pressure them with sustained damage.

1. You say that shatter has an opportunity cost associated with it: you lose your phantasms.
2. You then say that other classes do not have an associated opportunity cost for using their class abilities.
The first statement is true. The second statement, however, is definitely wrong.

I am an economics major, and you seem to misunderstand what opportunity cost means.
Opportunity cost is what you could have done with given resources instead of what you did do with them. For example, if hot dogs and hamburgers are both $1 each, and I only have one dollar, then my opportunity cost would be whatever I did not buy, e.g., If I buy the hot dog then my opportunity cost is the hamburger.

So yes, every ability has an opporunity cost. Every interrupt you use has an opporunity cost: you could have interrupted something else. My steal ,for example. Let’s say I use it to interrupt a warrior’s shield bash. That has an opportunity cost. I could have used it to interrupt eviscerate, or 100 blades. I could interrupt the shield bash and avoid let’s say 1k damage. But then i cannot avoid the eviscerate which does 8k damage (let’s say I’m out of dodges/blind/whatever). My opportunity cost there was avoiding an additional 7k damage.

I can take that to the extreme as well. Let’s say my thief has only one skill: Assassinate. Let’s say this is my only skill, and it does 300k damage and is on a 3 min CD. Now, under your own logic, my thief would be no better off or worse off if he misses Assassinate. But in this scenario that logic is obviously fallacious. If I miss, I will certainly lose, and if it lands, I will certainly win.

Every ability has this opportunity cost. Shatter has this too. In fact, by refusing to shatter, you are likely incurring higher opportunity costs onto yourself than you otherwise would have by shattering. Sometimes the burst damage right now is more important than the sustained damage. Sometimes immediately downing that one person in a group fight is more important than allowing him to run away/heal while you do more sustained damage.

Assuming ceteris paribus:
1.Let’s say a warrior is using eviscerate and if it lands it will down you and the only way to avoid it is to use distortion. Do you use distortion? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
2.Lets say your phantasms will definitely die to my AoE before they cast a second attack, and let’s assume that this is to my normal AoE, and I am not deliberately going out of my way to attack them. By not using shatters, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
3. Let’s say a ranger is low on health and has no way of avoiding mind wrack, and you do not have enough damage to down him before his heal is back up, but mind wrack does enough damage to down him before then. Do you use mind wrack? If not, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
4. Let’s say a you and a thief has 1k health left and is using using hide in shadows to heal. If he heals then he will certainly kill you, and diversion is the only way to interrupt, or mind wrack is the only way to down him right now. Do you shatter? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then that would contradict what you said in your original post. Sometimes, there is little to no risk in shattering.

tl;dr You claim that shatter unfairly has an opportunity cost that other classes do not have. This is false. While shatter has an immediate and obvious opportunity cost (losing phantasms), every ability has an opportunity cost, and you are actually inflicting additional opportunity costs upon yourself by refusing to shatter, because sometimes a shatter is what is most optimal at a given moment.

Archon.6481:

1. You say that shatter has an opportunity cost associated with it: you lose your phantasms.
2. You then say that other classes do not have an associated opportunity cost for using their class abilities.
The first statement is true. The second statement, however, is definitely wrong.

I am an economics major, and you seem to misunderstand what opportunity cost means.
Opportunity cost is what you could have done with given resources instead of what you did do with them. For example, if hot dogs and hamburgers are both $1 each, and I only have one dollar, then my opportunity cost would be whatever I did not buy, e.g., If I buy the hot dog then my opportunity cost is the hamburger.

So yes, every ability has an opporunity cost. Every interrupt you use has an opporunity cost: you could have interrupted something else. My steal ,for example. Let’s say I use it to interrupt a warrior’s shield bash. That has an opportunity cost. I could have used it to interrupt eviscerate, or 100 blades. I could interrupt the shield bash and avoid let’s say 1k damage. But then i cannot avoid the eviscerate which does 8k damage (let’s say I’m out of dodges/blind/whatever). My opportunity cost there was avoiding an additional 7k damage.

I can take that to the extreme as well. Let’s say my thief has only one skill: Assassinate. Let’s say this is my only skill, and it does 300k damage and is on a 3 min CD. Now, under your own logic, my thief would be no better off or worse off if he misses Assassinate. But in this scenario that logic is obviously fallacious. If I miss, I will certainly lose, and if it lands, I will certainly win.

Every ability has this opportunity cost. Shatter has this too. In fact, by refusing to shatter, you are likely incurring higher opportunity costs onto yourself than you otherwise would have by shattering. Sometimes the burst damage right now is more important than the sustained damage. Sometimes immediately downing that one person in a group fight is more important than allowing him to run away/heal while you do more sustained damage.

Assuming ceteris paribus:
1.Let’s say a warrior is using eviscerate and if it lands it will down you and the only way to avoid it is to use distortion. Do you use distortion? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
2.Lets say your phantasms will definitely die to my AoE before they cast a second attack, and let’s assume that this is to my normal AoE, and I am not deliberately going out of my way to attack them. By not using shatters, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
3. Let’s say a ranger is low on health and has no way of avoiding mind wrack, and you do not have enough damage to down him before his heal is back up, but mind wrack does enough damage to down him before then. Do you use mind wrack? If not, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
4. Let’s say a you and a thief has 1k health left and is using using hide in shadows to heal. If he heals then he will certainly kill you, and diversion is the only way to interrupt, or mind wrack is the only way to down him right now. Do you shatter? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then that would contradict what you said in your original post. Sometimes, there is little to no risk in shattering.

tl;dr You claim that shatter unfairly has an opportunity cost that other classes do not have. This is false. While shatter has an immediate and obvious opportunity cost (losing phantasms), every ability has an opportunity cost, and you are actually inflicting additional opportunity costs upon yourself by refusing to shatter, because sometimes a shatter is what is most optimal at a given moment.

His risk adverse, alredy told it, that makes the utility that shatter gives go way lower.

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

What about when a warrior misses with his burst skill and his entire adrenaline bar is reset and he gains none of the advantage of having used his adrenaline? Is that not comparable to you losing your phantasm(s) when you use your shatter skill? After all, the warrior did invest weapon skill cooldowns on generating the adrenaline, much as you wasted weapon skill cooldowns generating the clones and phantasms to gain the ability to use shatter skills.

I’m sorry, it just seems like you’re trying to make other classes look significantly stronger than mesmers or something to me, as though other classes have some sort of ridiculously unfair advantage.

In your original post you even mention thief steal being “free,” yet steal is able to be evaded and blocked, negating the benefit of using it.

It seems to me like you don’t completely understand how or when to use your shatter skills, and that is the heart of your issue with them, rather than that they’re leaving you vulnerable. The point is to use your shatters on an enemy when they’re vulnerable, not whenever you please (this is how all class mechanics work to varying degrees by the way).

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

You aren’t comparing it properly here.

A fair comparison would be, before a fight, Necro has no life force, Warrior has no adrenaline and Mesmer has no clones/phantasms.

When a fight begins they all have ‘charges’ of their respective mechanic. When they use it, they end up at the beginning.

As you can see it is the exact same.

Mesmers DONT start a fight with Clones/Phants up, and therefore are no worse off than default without them.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

Archon.6481:

1. You say that shatter has an opportunity cost associated with it: you lose your phantasms.
2. You then say that other classes do not have an associated opportunity cost for using their class abilities.
The first statement is true. The second statement, however, is definitely wrong.

I am an economics major, and you seem to misunderstand what opportunity cost means.
Opportunity cost is what you could have done with given resources instead of what you did do with them. For example, if hot dogs and hamburgers are both $1 each, and I only have one dollar, then my opportunity cost would be whatever I did not buy, e.g., If I buy the hot dog then my opportunity cost is the hamburger.

So yes, every ability has an opporunity cost. Every interrupt you use has an opporunity cost: you could have interrupted something else. My steal ,for example. Let’s say I use it to interrupt a warrior’s shield bash. That has an opportunity cost. I could have used it to interrupt eviscerate, or 100 blades. I could interrupt the shield bash and avoid let’s say 1k damage. But then i cannot avoid the eviscerate which does 8k damage (let’s say I’m out of dodges/blind/whatever). My opportunity cost there was avoiding an additional 7k damage.

I can take that to the extreme as well. Let’s say my thief has only one skill: Assassinate. Let’s say this is my only skill, and it does 300k damage and is on a 3 min CD. Now, under your own logic, my thief would be no better off or worse off if he misses Assassinate. But in this scenario that logic is obviously fallacious. If I miss, I will certainly lose, and if it lands, I will certainly win.

Every ability has this opportunity cost. Shatter has this too. In fact, by refusing to shatter, you are likely incurring higher opportunity costs onto yourself than you otherwise would have by shattering. Sometimes the burst damage right now is more important than the sustained damage. Sometimes immediately downing that one person in a group fight is more important than allowing him to run away/heal while you do more sustained damage.

Assuming ceteris paribus:
1.Let’s say a warrior is using eviscerate and if it lands it will down you and the only way to avoid it is to use distortion. Do you use distortion? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
2.Lets say your phantasms will definitely die to my AoE before they cast a second attack, and let’s assume that this is to my normal AoE, and I am not deliberately going out of my way to attack them. By not using shatters, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
3. Let’s say a ranger is low on health and has no way of avoiding mind wrack, and you do not have enough damage to down him before his heal is back up, but mind wrack does enough damage to down him before then. Do you use mind wrack? If not, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
4. Let’s say a you and a thief has 1k health left and is using using hide in shadows to heal. If he heals then he will certainly kill you, and diversion is the only way to interrupt, or mind wrack is the only way to down him right now. Do you shatter? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then that would contradict what you said in your original post. Sometimes, there is little to no risk in shattering.

tl;dr You claim that shatter unfairly has an opportunity cost that other classes do not have. This is false. While shatter has an immediate and obvious opportunity cost (losing phantasms), every ability has an opportunity cost, and you are actually inflicting additional opportunity costs upon yourself by refusing to shatter, because sometimes a shatter is what is most optimal at a given moment.

In your example of a 300k skill, I don’t understand how you will “certainly lose”. You could just walk away. Your health is the same. Your stats are the same. What have you lost? Your situation before you steal – alive. Your situation immediately after – still alive. Now if steal had an additional effect – “Miss steal and lose 300k life”. THAT would have been a risk. A clear gamble.

Similarly when a necro enters death shroud, there is no cost associated with entering it. It is only a net benefit. The necro loses neither life, nor damage, nor sustain…it’s an additional skill. That’s it.

This really isn’t a difficult concept to understand. I don’t know why so many peole are getting confused by it.

PistolWhip.2697:

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

What about when a warrior misses with his burst skill and his entire adrenaline bar is reset and he gains none of the advantage of having used his adrenaline? Is that not comparable to you losing your phantasm(s) when you use your shatter skill? After all, the warrior did invest weapon skill cooldowns on generating the adrenaline, much as you wasted weapon skill cooldowns generating the clones and phantasms to gain the ability to use shatter skills.

I’m sorry, it just seems like you’re trying to make other classes look significantly stronger than mesmers or something to me, as though other classes have some sort of ridiculously unfair advantage.

In your original post you even mention thief steal being “free,” yet steal is able to be evaded and blocked, negating the benefit of using it.

It seems to me like you don’t completely understand how or when to use your shatter skills, and that is the heart of your issue with them, rather than that they’re leaving you vulnerable. The point is to use your shatters on an enemy when they’re vulnerable, not whenever you please (this is how all class mechanics work to varying degrees by the way).

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

You aren’t comparing it properly here.

A fair comparison would be, before a fight, Necro has no life force, Warrior has no adrenaline and Mesmer has no clones/phantasms.

When a fight begins they all have ‘charges’ of their respective mechanic. When they use it, they end up at the beginning.

As you can see it is the exact same.

Mesmers DONT start a fight with Clones/Phants up, and therefore are no worse off than default without them.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

This has already been explained. Both necros and warriors gain life force in the normal course of play. Warrior does not have a skill solely dedicated to adrenaline that says “Gain 5 adrenalin”. Same with necro. The mesmer’s phantasms are weapon skills. They are not given to us automatically. They do not come out of nowhere.

The mesmer class mechanic requires us to essentially sacrifice weapon skills that have nice long cooldowns. Does a necro have a CD on the gain of life force? Does a warrior have a CD on the gain of adrenalin?

Archon.6481:

1. You say that shatter has an opportunity cost associated with it: you lose your phantasms.
2. You then say that other classes do not have an associated opportunity cost for using their class abilities.
The first statement is true. The second statement, however, is definitely wrong.

I am an economics major, and you seem to misunderstand what opportunity cost means.
Opportunity cost is what you could have done with given resources instead of what you did do with them. For example, if hot dogs and hamburgers are both $1 each, and I only have one dollar, then my opportunity cost would be whatever I did not buy, e.g., If I buy the hot dog then my opportunity cost is the hamburger.

So yes, every ability has an opporunity cost. Every interrupt you use has an opporunity cost: you could have interrupted something else. My steal ,for example. Let’s say I use it to interrupt a warrior’s shield bash. That has an opportunity cost. I could have used it to interrupt eviscerate, or 100 blades. I could interrupt the shield bash and avoid let’s say 1k damage. But then i cannot avoid the eviscerate which does 8k damage (let’s say I’m out of dodges/blind/whatever). My opportunity cost there was avoiding an additional 7k damage.

I can take that to the extreme as well. Let’s say my thief has only one skill: Assassinate. Let’s say this is my only skill, and it does 300k damage and is on a 3 min CD. Now, under your own logic, my thief would be no better off or worse off if he misses Assassinate. But in this scenario that logic is obviously fallacious. If I miss, I will certainly lose, and if it lands, I will certainly win.

Every ability has this opportunity cost. Shatter has this too. In fact, by refusing to shatter, you are likely incurring higher opportunity costs onto yourself than you otherwise would have by shattering. Sometimes the burst damage right now is more important than the sustained damage. Sometimes immediately downing that one person in a group fight is more important than allowing him to run away/heal while you do more sustained damage.

Assuming ceteris paribus:
1.Let’s say a warrior is using eviscerate and if it lands it will down you and the only way to avoid it is to use distortion. Do you use distortion? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
2.Lets say your phantasms will definitely die to my AoE before they cast a second attack, and let’s assume that this is to my normal AoE, and I am not deliberately going out of my way to attack them. By not using shatters, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
3. Let’s say a ranger is low on health and has no way of avoiding mind wrack, and you do not have enough damage to down him before his heal is back up, but mind wrack does enough damage to down him before then. Do you use mind wrack? If not, you are willfully limiting yourself, and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
4. Let’s say a you and a thief has 1k health left and is using using hide in shadows to heal. If he heals then he will certainly kill you, and diversion is the only way to interrupt, or mind wrack is the only way to down him right now. Do you shatter? If not, then you are willfully limiting yourself and inflicting opportunity costs upon yourself.
If you answered “yes” to any of these questions, then that would contradict what you said in your original post. Sometimes, there is little to no risk in shattering.

tl;dr You claim that shatter unfairly has an opportunity cost that other classes do not have. This is false. While shatter has an immediate and obvious opportunity cost (losing phantasms), every ability has an opportunity cost, and you are actually inflicting additional opportunity costs upon yourself by refusing to shatter, because sometimes a shatter is what is most optimal at a given moment.

One other thing – I’ve already said that I use shatters for specific circumstances – notably for distortion. Your other situations however, all carry risk. There is no way to be sure that an opponent can’t avoid my shatter.

Not to mention my shatters do very poor damage cause there are no traits into it.

bhagwad.4281:

PistolWhip.2697:

bhagwad.4281:

godz raiden.2631:

bhagwad.4281:

And those are “free” additional class mechanics belonging to necros and warriors. A necro only benefits from using DS. A warrior only benefits from using adrenaline skills.

After DS and Adrenaline skills, the necro and warrior are no worse off than they were before using those skills.

The mesmer on the other hand is worse off for using their shatters. Because their phantasms and clones are gone.

Your point might have merit if clones and phantasms were also linked to the F1-F5 skills. But since they are caused by normal weapon and utility skills, the class mechanic for mesmers leaves us in a worse position than we were before.

What about when a warrior misses with his burst skill and his entire adrenaline bar is reset and he gains none of the advantage of having used his adrenaline? Is that not comparable to you losing your phantasm(s) when you use your shatter skill? After all, the warrior did invest weapon skill cooldowns on generating the adrenaline, much as you wasted weapon skill cooldowns generating the clones and phantasms to gain the ability to use shatter skills.

I’m sorry, it just seems like you’re trying to make other classes look significantly stronger than mesmers or something to me, as though other classes have some sort of ridiculously unfair advantage.

In your original post you even mention thief steal being “free,” yet steal is able to be evaded and blocked, negating the benefit of using it.

It seems to me like you don’t completely understand how or when to use your shatter skills, and that is the heart of your issue with them, rather than that they’re leaving you vulnerable. The point is to use your shatters on an enemy when they’re vulnerable, not whenever you please (this is how all class mechanics work to varying degrees by the way).

When the warrior misses an adrenaline skill, they are no worse off than before they used it! Same with steal. If steal misses, the thief is in no worse position than before they used steal.

Mesmers on the other hand are in a worse position because their phantasms and clones are gone. Why is this so difficult to understand.

You aren’t comparing it properly here.

A fair comparison would be, before a fight, Necro has no life force, Warrior has no adrenaline and Mesmer has no clones/phantasms.

When a fight begins they all have ‘charges’ of their respective mechanic. When they use it, they end up at the beginning.

As you can see it is the exact same.

Mesmers DONT start a fight with Clones/Phants up, and therefore are no worse off than default without them.

Why is this so difficult to understand?

This has already been explained. Both necros and warriors gain life force in the normal course of play. Warrior does not have a skill solely dedicated to adrenaline that says “Gain 5 adrenalin”. Same with necro. The mesmer’s phantasms are weapon skills. They are not given to us automatically. They do not come out of nowhere.

The mesmer class mechanic requires us to essentially sacrifice weapon skills that have nice long cooldowns. Does a necro have a CD on the gain of life force? Does a warrior have a CD on the gain of adrenalin?

Wrong.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Rage

Warriors tend to gain Adrenaline in fights for two reasons. That signet up there and Cleansing Ire (being the most common trait) gives you adrenaline when struck.

Once again, you’re comparing it unfairly.

Warrior doesn’t have a cool down on GAINING Adrenaline yes, and mesmer doesnt have a cool down on creating Clones. You can keep spawning them like a factory if you like (evidently the oldest one will disappear cause of the 3 limit).

And before you say, “But Mesmers have cool downs on skills which give us clones.” Yes, a Warrior may use a shout with a 25 second cool down for adrenaline provided he has brought the shout trait. Same thing.

Mesmer shatters have a cool down of course, as do Warrior F1 Skills.

Honestly at this point you’re just nitpicking something incorrectly to moan. If you really think Anet is going to make it so Mesmers don’t have a cool down on shatters… Hooooooooo buddy you’re dreamin.

Meh. You do what’s necessary to win. Simple as that.

PistolWhip.2697:

Wrong.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Signet_of_Rage

Warriors tend to gain Adrenaline in fights for two reasons. That signet up there and Cleansing Ire (being the most common trait) gives you adrenaline when struck.

Once again, you’re comparing it unfairly.

Warrior doesn’t have a cool down on GAINING Adrenaline yes, and mesmer doesnt have a cool down on creating Clones. You can keep spawning them like a factory if you like (evidently the oldest one will disappear cause of the 3 limit).

And before you say, “But Mesmers have cool downs on skills which give us clones.” Yes, a Warrior may use a shout with a 25 second cool down for adrenaline provided he has brought the shout trait. Same thing.

Mesmer shatters have a cool down of course, as do Warrior F1 Skills.

Honestly at this point you’re just nitpicking something incorrectly to moan. If you really think Anet is going to make it so Mesmers don’t have a cool down on shatters… Hooooooooo buddy you’re dreamin.

If you read the first few lines of my OP, you’ll see I’m talking about phantasm builds only. I’m not talking about clones. If shatters were to only consume clones and leave phantasms alive, I would be perfectly happy with that. And since phantasm skills require CDs, my point still stands.

I’ve played a warrior for a long time – I know very well how easy it is to gain adrenaline without doing much. Cleansing Ire’s other useful feature is condi clears, and every warrior takes it. Using that is a bad example, because it just highlights my point about how easy it is for a warrior to gain adrenaline.

Not to mention the GM trait that refunds a portion of the adrenaline based on the level! And of course adrenaline on weapon swap (5 CD traited). Oh yes, I know all about how easy it is for a warrior to gain it.

Tell you what – let Anet give us something similar for phantasms (no one cares about clones). Say…getting hit gives a bar of xyz. 10 xyz’s spawns a phantasm of your choice. Let something like that be made, and we’ll be on par.

Till then, phantasms are created exclusively by weapon skills and utilities that do nothing else. At least a warrior’s shout has other primary effects. Fury. Fear. Stun break/condi removal. Vulnerability. Mesmer’s phantasms are not side effects – they are the whole skill.

So you’re drawing a false equivalence here. Mesmer F skills have a cost to using them that is simply unmatched by what other classes have.

And “cooldown on shatters”? Buddy…I would never shatter even if the CD was 0. That’s my whole point in this thread. I…don’t…want..to…shatter…ever!

Clone… clone… clone… SHATTER!
Clone… clone… clone… SHATTER!
Clone… clone… clone… SHATTER!
Clone… clone… clone… SHATTER!

What’s not to love?

bhagwad.4281:

In your example of a 300k skill, I don’t understand how you will “certainly lose”. You could just walk away. Your health is the same. Your stats are the same. What have you lost? Your situation before you steal – alive. Your situation immediately after – still alive. Now if steal had an additional effect – “Miss steal and lose 300k life”. THAT would have been a risk. A clear gamble.

That skill is my only skill. If I miss, how am I supposed to walk away? I will certainly die if I miss. If i gave you that skill and you missed, how would you run from someone if that was your only skill? This really isn’t a hard concept. I cannot run away from someone if I have no skills.

bhagwad.4281:

“Miss steal and lose 300k life”. THAT would have been a risk. A clear gamble.

But it already is a gamble. That is my only skill. If I miss then I cannot defend myself. I will surely die. The “lose 300k” life part of you version is irrelevant—I will die to the other player if I miss. Again: I cannot possibly run or defend myself if my only skill misses.

bhagwad.4281:

Similarly when a necro enters death shroud, there is no cost associated with entering it. It is only a net benefit.

This is false in both economic and practical terms. Everything in economics has an opportunity cost. In this situation, the necro loses his weapon skills (opportunity cost+practical cost). He also gains a second healthbar, which maybe he could’ve used later and not now (opportunity cost). And once he ends it, death shroud is on CD. And he may find out afterwards that maybe he shouldn’t have used deathshroud and should’ve used it later (opportunity cost +practical cost) Stop using terms that you don’t really understand.

bhagwad.4281:

This really isn’t a difficult concept to understand. I don’t know why so many peole are getting confused by it.

Funny, because you continue to misuse a basic economic term. Stop acting like you’re some genius and you can understand something when you very clearly do not. You claim that mesmer is the only class who’s profession mechanic has an opportunity cost. This is false—everything has an opportunity cost, mesmer’s is only more direct (loss of phantasms).

Archon.6481:

bhagwad.4281:

In your example of a 300k skill, I don’t understand how you will “certainly lose”. You could just walk away. Your health is the same. Your stats are the same. What have you lost? Your situation before you steal – alive. Your situation immediately after – still alive. Now if steal had an additional effect – “Miss steal and lose 300k life”. THAT would have been a risk. A clear gamble.

That skill is my only skill. If I miss, how am I supposed to walk away? I will certainly die if I miss. If i gave you that skill and you missed, how would you run from someone if that was your only skill? This really isn’t a hard concept. I cannot run away from someone if I have no skills.

bhagwad.4281:

“Miss steal and lose 300k life”. THAT would have been a risk. A clear gamble.

But it already is a gamble. That is my only skill. If I miss then I cannot defend myself. I will surely die. The “lose 300k” life part of you version is irrelevant—I will die to the other player if I miss. Again: I cannot possibly run or defend myself if my only skill misses.

bhagwad.4281:

Similarly when a necro enters death shroud, there is no cost associated with entering it. It is only a net benefit.

This is false in both economic and practical terms. Everything in economics has an opportunity cost. In this situation, the necro loses his weapon skills (opportunity cost+practical cost). He also gains a second healthbar, which maybe he could’ve used later and not now (opportunity cost). And once he ends it, death shroud is on CD. And he may find out afterwards that maybe he shouldn’t have used deathshroud and should’ve used it later (opportunity cost +practical cost) Stop using terms that you don’t really understand.

bhagwad.4281:

This really isn’t a difficult concept to understand. I don’t know why so many peole are getting confused by it.

Funny, because you continue to misuse a basic economic term. Stop acting like you’re some genius and you can understand something when you very clearly do not. You claim that mesmer is the only class who’s profession mechanic has an opportunity cost. This is false—everything has an opportunity cost, mesmer’s is only more direct (loss of phantasms).

You cannot defend yourself anyway! Your insta 300k attack is not a defensive skill. It is offensive. Whether it misses or loses, you have the same defense you did before. Not sure how using it puts you in a worse position. If you’re fighting with me (say 1v1), then you might as well use your 300k steal skill. Not using it means I kill you anyway. Use it and you have a chance of winning.

Sorry, but there is 0 risk here. Only a possible benefit. You’re confusing opportunity cost with gambling.

Next, a necro doesn’t really lose his other skills on entering DS because he can exit death shroud at any time if he needs those skills. You might want to play necro just a little bit to understand how it works. Just create a new necro character and try out DS skills. You’ll see that a necro is not locked into DS at any time.

Your other examples (about DS having a CD) is merely the trade off for any skill that has a CD (or a resource cost like a thief). You’re essentially admitting that DS is an additional skill slot, which only serves to further my point.

In fact, your examples of “opportunity cost” illustrate that you don’t really understand what I’m referring to. I’m saying “the act of using a class mechanic like steal” has no opportunity cost. Sure, you can choose to steal this, or you can choose to steal that. Not the point. When I say “steal itself has no opportunity cost”, what I mean is that by using it you don’t lose health, you don’t lose defence, you don’t lose power, or boons.

In fact, every decent thief has a trait that gives might, fury and swiftness regardless of whether or not steal succeeds. So there is “always” a benefit to using steal.

Let me put it in even simpler terms.

1. Consider thief A and thief B
2. Thief A has access to Steal
3. Thief B has no access to the steal skill at all
4. Thief A uses steal
5. Thief B has nothing

End result: Thief A is at the very least equal to thief B. Most likely he’ll be better off because of the boons, and if he lands it, then all kinds of nice things happen as well.

There is no situation in which Thief B is in a better situation than Thief A. Remember, thief A can also choose to simply not use steal if he doesn’t want.

Ergo: Steal is a free additional utility with no cost.

The same is true of warriors, necros, guardians etc.

Only Mesmers are different.

I’m sorry, but you seem to have a somewhat confused understanding of “zero risk” means. But really, it’s not my concern.

I don’t necessarily agree with the OP on the point of shatters but from his builds perspective I can definitely see that he has a point and understand why some builds may choose to shatter less. Reading through some of the comments though I had to laugh at how many people acted like they know how Mesmers work when their comments were full of ignorance. X3

I plus +1ed your post, but I don’t see what the intent was. I do think each class should have a certain flavor, and that flavor is mostly designed around the class mechanic. Mesmer is inherently a higher risk higher reward profession. This is irrefutable based on the state Mesmer has been in the last several years. If anything, this revamp has made Mesmer less of a high risk high reward profession based on the survivability we have received.

That being said, I see no issue with them enhancing and encouraging us to use our class mechanic. Lastly, phantasm builds are in a great place post-patch for pvp. Check out the build in my link, Hermetic Inscriptions. I rarely shatter if ever unless it gets hairy and I need an interrupt or distortion.

There are plenty of ways to play phantasm, and I’m sure you’ll succeed in finding something that is a good fit for you. Feel free to message me ingame or on the forums if you’d like to chat about it!

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

The class mechanic is to shatter. It’s not about playstyle, but more about basic design. It is inherently bad design in and of itself if for whatever reason, we are discouraged to shatter. For 3 years now, we have been discouraged to shatter. Even our best build (power) was limited because of the design.

What they’re imposing on you 3 years later is what it should have been at the start. Sorry you’re having trouble adjusting.

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

The class mechanic is to shatter. It’s not about playstyle, but more about basic design. It is inherently bad design in and of itself if for whatever reason, we are discouraged to shatter. For 3 years now, we have been discouraged to shatter. Even our best build (power) was limited because of the design.

What they’re imposing on you 3 years later is what it should have been at the start. Sorry you’re having trouble adjusting.

I feel the mesmer is not defined only by shatter, but also by phantasms, clones and (maybe) mantras. It’s a very weird philosophy of Anet’s if they care about people’s playstyles! How does it matter to anyone?

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

MailMail.6534:

bhagwad.4281:

dank.3680:

I just have to say, Warriors pay a similar price. There are several traits tied to how much adrenaline they have and so it is not “free” to just throw it away and get nothing (missing burst skill blow all adren) now have less healing, less crit etc… Same type of trade-off.

They also have to use skill/utility/heal or get damaged to get adrenaline.

Yes, a huge number of warrior traits are tied into adrenaline. There are a lot of things adrenaline can be used for. Condi cleansing, burst damage, and even restoring itself. My point is that even if warriors never trait anything for adrenaline, they will still have those skills available to use when the time comes.

Anet has never said “We want warriors to use adrenaline” – duh, why would they! It’s obvious that adrenaline is a huge benefit to a warrior. Yet Anet has said more than once “We want mesmers to shatter more”. There is a reason for that. A reason why mesmers use their class mechanic less than all other classes.

No disrespect, but effing DUH! That’s the entire point. That’s why our shatters have been so immensely buffed with all of our baseline stuff as well as the ability to trait for multiple shatter traits… It is now VERY lucrative to shatter no matter what build you’re playing in most cases. There is a lot less drawback from shattering than there was before the revamp. That is a fact.

Personally I don’t think Anet should worry about what playstyle people choose to have – all they need to worry about is balance. If as a mesmer I never shatter, that should be none of Anet’s concern. I feel uneasy when they talk about imposing a particular style of play on me.

The class mechanic is to shatter. It’s not about playstyle, but more about basic design. It is inherently bad design in and of itself if for whatever reason, we are discouraged to shatter. For 3 years now, we have been discouraged to shatter. Even our best build (power) was limited because of the design.

What they’re imposing on you 3 years later is what it should have been at the start. Sorry you’re having trouble adjusting.

I feel the mesmer is not defined only by shatter, but also by phantasms, clones and (maybe) mantras. It’s a very weird philosophy of Anet’s if they care about people’s playstyles! How does it matter to anyone?

I don’t think you read my post. It’s not about playstyle. It’s about reinforcing the basic design of the class that was poorly implemented in the beginning and for the last 3 years. The Mesmer is not defined by Mantras (classes are starting to share utilities via specializations; see Wells) but by illusions and shattering. Think Lyssa the dual goddess and the Chaos line. Mesmer has always been a “pull & push” kind of profession.