Guild Wars 2

PvP

While people might cry and complain about the nature of chrono clone generation and shatter spam, what goes unsaid is the bleak reality that the builds cannot move away from the particular trait line/trait setups because:-

A: Shatter skills need to be fully stacked. Stacked for condi’s, damage, cd reduction, cleanse, the works.

Therefore

B: Shatter access has to be tricked out to the max. Thus utility pick sig of illusions finding a permanent place on the bar. Otherwise once you run out of shatters, you run out of EVERYTHING.

C: ALSO – continuum split provides a double up of all that’s necessary above.

D: Every weapon pick must be made to maximize survive/sustain. Even if you find some damage on a weapon pick (scepter for example) you’re still primarily using it for it’s block and mixing it with either OH sword (for the block) or shield.

Leading to

E: various conclusion such as our weapons are pretty much kitten for any practical purposes. They don’t

• Cleanse enough/at all
• Provide much meaningful damage
• Offer enough clone generation (all things considered)
• Give heals or any team support
• Provide much if any utility (outside of a few obvious, key cases such as staff 2 for teleport only access)

Honestly, the most play they see is sigil procs on weapon swaps, into clone/phant sumoons, into subsequent shatter for ultimate effect XD

In conclusion: Chrono be duuuumb.

So what do you propose?

myren.5490:

So what do you propose?

Killshot mesmer, duh!

Absolutely +1 on this thread. We’re so extremely pigeonholed into everything at the moment, in order to simply to stay remotely competitive, it just makes playing a Mesmer boring and repetitive at the moment. kitten many have said before, “Twice the effort half the effect of various other professions in the meta.”

Most professions feel the same. In the case of the mesmer, the problem stems from that its class mechanic – shatter – provides a lot of innate versatility from the effects gained and PvP-oriented damage.

Really, shatter shouldn’t have been the cornerstone way to get damage and utility. As it is, if you buff the DPS of the mesmer, it’ll have too much burst and DPS potential. If you buff the sustain, it’s unkillable. If you lower cooldowns, there are concerns with both (bunker chrono). If you buff weapon skills, certain sets become way too dominant and probably need nerfing, or else the class becomes over-buffed.

The core of the issues with mesmer stem from its over-dependence on its class mechanic, but because that class mechanic is so strong baseline, it’s hard to enable buffs either to it or to the other areas of the class.

I won’t even go into detail the obvious disparity between power/condition play due to the huge buffs given to confusion damage and huge nerfs to playing power/crit for all builds since HoT, too.

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

OriOri.8724:

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

This is so wrong. Your build?? By changing 1 or 2 traits in a trait line makes it your own build? By not choosing a trait line because you feel it works better although has been shown is inferior; makes it your build? Your build because you can crush low end players using anything and make statements about your build. Sadly once past the 1 trick pony most players can survive and thrive in this meta against a Mesmer.

OriOri.8724:

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

This is overly simplified. The reality is the meta determines the build. I can p;ay a great game of power shatter, be really skilled at it, but that doesn’t mean it’ll contribute to a win. Nor does it mean I brought everything that I could have to the team. In fact history has shown us that the issue with Mes has always been not “are we good at XYZ” but rather “doesnt this other class/build do XYZ better than us?”

The fact you won’t get past though is that, once our build, whatever the build, runs out of shatters we’re dead in the water. So any build (and only those builds) that can fascilitate Maximum illusion generation, in conjunction with maximum shatter potential, are the strongest and most viable. Arguably, viability stops at the point you have no more F1-F4’s left to fire. Because, as has already been stated, our weapon sets bring very, very little to the table of what we need.

Of course there are a few exceptions, but those things do not make things stand on their own (I’m talking chaos storm on its massive CD, or an iWave CC for an interrupt – assuming you can even get them to land vs the aegis, invuln, evade, stability spam etc XD ).

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

This is overly simplified. The reality is the meta determines the build. I can p;ay a great game of power shatter, be really skilled at it, but that doesn’t mean it’ll contribute to a win. Nor does it mean I brought everything that I could have to the team. In fact history has shown us that the issue with Mes has always been not “are we good at XYZ” but rather “doesnt this other class/build do XYZ better than us?”

The fact you won’t get past though is that, once our build, whatever the build, runs out of shatters we’re dead in the water. So any build (and only those builds) that can fascilitate Maximum illusion generation, in conjunction with maximum shatter potential, are the strongest and most viable. Arguably, viability stops at the point you have no more F1-F4’s left to fire. Because, as has already been stated, our weapon sets bring very, very little to the table of what we need.

Of course there are a few exceptions, but those things do not make things stand on their own (I’m talking chaos storm on its massive CD, or an iWave CC for an interrupt – assuming you can even get them to land vs the aegis, invuln, evade, stability spam etc XD ).

Again, this is just describing someone who isn’t that great with the class. Apparently you have missed all the posts in this subforum recently with people making it to legendary this season with a power shatter, support or lockdown builds. Its entirely possible to play nearly any build you want and still be a huge help to the team if you are good at it.

And quite frankly, just because you are playing the meta build does not mean you are bringing anything to your team. By far most of the people i have met running the meta battle builds for mesmer suck kitten , doesn’t matter if it is a ranked game or an unranked game. They play a build someone else gave them because they are not good enough with the class to design a build that fits their playstyle.

Yes, a mesmer relies pretty heavily on their shatters. But again part of being good at the class is knowing when to use a shatter and when not to. Its two separate things to be a great mesmer and burn through your shatters trying to help in a 2v3 fight near the end of the game and end up dead at the end but helped your team secure the point than it is to blow through all of your shatters on a 1v1 that should have been quick and easy because you just don’t know how to play the class and when to use shatters. Mesmers are not locked down into a single build in this season. The only people who think so are the ones who can’t design a viable build for their own playstyle. It will always be easier to be great at a class if you figure out your playstyle and make a build to suit it than it will be to copy a build someone else made and attempt the change your playstyle to suit that new build.

OriOri.8724:

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

This is overly simplified. The reality is the meta determines the build. I can p;ay a great game of power shatter, be really skilled at it, but that doesn’t mean it’ll contribute to a win. Nor does it mean I brought everything that I could have to the team. In fact history has shown us that the issue with Mes has always been not “are we good at XYZ” but rather “doesnt this other class/build do XYZ better than us?”

The fact you won’t get past though is that, once our build, whatever the build, runs out of shatters we’re dead in the water. So any build (and only those builds) that can fascilitate Maximum illusion generation, in conjunction with maximum shatter potential, are the strongest and most viable. Arguably, viability stops at the point you have no more F1-F4’s left to fire. Because, as has already been stated, our weapon sets bring very, very little to the table of what we need.

Of course there are a few exceptions, but those things do not make things stand on their own (I’m talking chaos storm on its massive CD, or an iWave CC for an interrupt – assuming you can even get them to land vs the aegis, invuln, evade, stability spam etc XD ).

Again, this is just describing someone who isn’t that great with the class. Apparently you have missed all the posts in this subforum recently with people making it to legendary this season with a power shatter, support or lockdown builds. Its entirely possible to play nearly any build you want and still be a huge help to the team if you are good at it.

And quite frankly, just because you are playing the meta build does not mean you are bringing anything to your team. By far most of the people i have met running the meta battle builds for mesmer suck kitten , doesn’t matter if it is a ranked game or an unranked game. They play a build someone else gave them because they are not good enough with the class to design a build that fits their playstyle.

Yes, a mesmer relies pretty heavily on their shatters. But again part of being good at the class is knowing when to use a shatter and when not to. Its two separate things to be a great mesmer and burn through your shatters trying to help in a 2v3 fight near the end of the game and end up dead at the end but helped your team secure the point than it is to blow through all of your shatters on a 1v1 that should have been quick and easy because you just don’t know how to play the class and when to use shatters. Mesmers are not locked down into a single build in this season. The only people who think so are the ones who can’t design a viable build for their own playstyle. It will always be easier to be great at a class if you figure out your playstyle and make a build to suit it than it will be to copy a build someone else made and attempt the change your playstyle to suit that new build.

Ok. That’s great play how you want no arguement. But just because your playstyle favors say range does that mean stay at range all the time? The meta builds are just that a build that when used by anyone perform better than other builds. Great players take it to greatness. Average to average and so on. Now a great player can take shatter lockdown and succeed but at what cost. Time perfect team comp enemy team comp. so many factors. It is called an optimum build for a reason. Again play how you want.

I’m just waiting for him to call Fay a casual newbie Mesmer….

Anet should just reverse the whole game to before the June 23, 2015 patch (excluding all the big fixes).
Good o’l zerk meta.
Good o’l “using braincells to play guild wars”
Good o’l “actually learning how to play a class”
Good o’l “incentive to risk reward”
Good o’l “no traits which carry garbage players”

OriOri.8724:

Ross Biddle.2367:

OriOri.8724:

I disgaree. Chronos are not forced into the choices you have outlined in your post if they want to be competitive in PvP. You merely picked the easiest to play build (which, ironically, is the build most people are built to counter if they are trying to fight you, which makes it easier on them).

If you are a truly good chronomancer you won’t be forced into this build in order to play a good/great game. The people that feel forced into this build are the mediocre players that don’t really understand the class well enough to come up with their own build

This is overly simplified. The reality is the meta determines the build. I can p;ay a great game of power shatter, be really skilled at it, but that doesn’t mean it’ll contribute to a win. Nor does it mean I brought everything that I could have to the team. In fact history has shown us that the issue with Mes has always been not “are we good at XYZ” but rather “doesnt this other class/build do XYZ better than us?”

The fact you won’t get past though is that, once our build, whatever the build, runs out of shatters we’re dead in the water. So any build (and only those builds) that can fascilitate Maximum illusion generation, in conjunction with maximum shatter potential, are the strongest and most viable. Arguably, viability stops at the point you have no more F1-F4’s left to fire. Because, as has already been stated, our weapon sets bring very, very little to the table of what we need.

Of course there are a few exceptions, but those things do not make things stand on their own (I’m talking chaos storm on its massive CD, or an iWave CC for an interrupt – assuming you can even get them to land vs the aegis, invuln, evade, stability spam etc XD ).

Again, this is just describing someone who isn’t that great with the class. Apparently you have missed all the posts in this subforum recently with people making it to legendary this season with a power shatter, support or lockdown builds. Its entirely possible to play nearly any build you want and still be a huge help to the team if you are good at it.

And quite frankly, just because you are playing the meta build does not mean you are bringing anything to your team. By far most of the people i have met running the meta battle builds for mesmer suck kitten , doesn’t matter if it is a ranked game or an unranked game. They play a build someone else gave them because they are not good enough with the class to design a build that fits their playstyle.

Yes, a mesmer relies pretty heavily on their shatters. But again part of being good at the class is knowing when to use a shatter and when not to. Its two separate things to be a great mesmer and burn through your shatters trying to help in a 2v3 fight near the end of the game and end up dead at the end but helped your team secure the point than it is to blow through all of your shatters on a 1v1 that should have been quick and easy because you just don’t know how to play the class and when to use shatters. Mesmers are not locked down into a single build in this season. The only people who think so are the ones who can’t design a viable build for their own playstyle. It will always be easier to be great at a class if you figure out your playstyle and make a build to suit it than it will be to copy a build someone else made and attempt the change your playstyle to suit that new build.

All the posts in the subforum? I remember one guy posting his match history claiming he ran power shatter. I don’t question his claim. However, I can easily call into question match making and MMR this season, which you would to if you’ve read the PvP forum :)

Anyway, can you give examples of any/all viable mes builds? I’d like to see what their setups entail so we can judge them based on my original assessment. Please :)

I stopped playing pvp after a few ranked games this season. I’m a really average player, but I made it to diamond last season and generally felt like I was helping my team more often than hurting.

Part of not playing this season was starting out with a lot of players who were clearly better than me (as all legendary and diamond started at sapphire). But the bigger part was that it felt like a real struggle to make a big positive impact for my team. I actually like the condi shatter builds, and I’ve been having a ton of fun playing in WvW. But I agree with Ross that generally the issue comes down to needing to focus so much on surviving with your trait and weapon choices and being really boxed in on utility choices.

As a pretty average player, I have trouble when I don’t have two stunbreaks. So the utility choices end up not working out well (people expect portal and without some kind of boon strip, I can’t really handle warriors with high resistance uptime).

When mercenary amulet was still in the game, I felt fine with some more tradeoffs to try more risk. But lacking that, I’ve spent my time in WvW where I can adjust gear to give me the mix I want and then feel free to play more with weapons and utilities.

It will be interesting to see what changes come in July

These days, almost everyone has trouble without two stunbreaks or lots and lots of stability access.

OriOri.8724:

Again, this is just describing someone who isn’t that great with the class. Apparently you have missed all the posts in this subforum recently with people making it to legendary this season with a power shatter, support or lockdown builds. Its entirely possible to play nearly any build you want and still be a huge help to the team if you are good at it.

And quite frankly, just because you are playing the meta build does not mean you are bringing anything to your team. By far most of the people i have met running the meta battle builds for mesmer suck kitten , doesn’t matter if it is a ranked game or an unranked game. They play a build someone else gave them because they are not good enough with the class to design a build that fits their playstyle.

The whole climb to legendary with power shatter is not common nor an indication that the build is in a good spot. Just the player is good, lucky and at the right place at the right time with MMR.

In season 2, I started with a full glass staff tempest (fire/air/tempest+zerker amy) and went 16/1 in solo Q and hit ruby in like 3 days of season start. The reason I hit a wall at ruby with that build was because my enemies were actually smart enough to realize 3k air overload ticks = kill that glassy ele. I swapped to condi necro (another class I was experienced with but it was also on roids back then) and went another 11/1 streak to diamond. Why is this important? Because this season was the exact opposite for me. Starting with other people that had reached diamond+ and a more refined MMR (I hadn’t PvPd in a long time), the glass ele flopped and my condi necro was ~60% win rate at the start but it was nowhere near the rapid ascent of the first season I participated in. The true test of it’s the build/skill or if it’s the MMR being out of wack + skill + moderately decent build is if these players that went power shatter to legendary can repeat their spree next seasons. Spoiler alert: Extremely unlikely it’ll happen.

I’m not saying they aren’t skilled but more so the MMR was way below what their actual abilities were at (practiced a lot in WvW for example). Furthermore, those power shatter Mesmers/chronos were using meta builds: just from the wrong time. So to think that those players reached legendary making up their own unique butterfly build is a stretch.

So you are stating that because Shatter mechanic is required in playing a Mesmer, that Illusions (and Chrono) is required.

Outside of PvE builds, I’d like to point you to every other class in the game that is “required” (or the player is highly skilled/unique) where that exact same build forcing is happening -
Warrior (must build for Adrenaline and take Defensive line and Discipline line)
Revenant (must take Glint line and Retribution and/or Corruption – why this class is really in a bad spot)
Necro (must take Reaper line and Curses line)
Thief (must take Daredevil and Trickery lines)
Ranger (must take Nature and Druid lines)
Guardian (must take Dragonhunter, Virtues and/or Honor line – also in a questionably bad spot)
Engineer (must take Scrapper and Alchemy lines)
etc.

I’m not disagreeing that there needs to be more class build diversity but as players, we will always gravitate to the most effective meta/anti-meta builds.

I made it to Legendary primarily with DH. And DH is pure trash.

Meta builds exist for a reason – they’re the optimal build setup coupled with certain classes but not solely reliant on them.

There’s optimal and viable. Most choose optimal because they want to win.

phokus.8934:

I made it to Legendary primarily with DH. And DH is pure trash.

Meta builds exist for a reason – they’re the optimal build setup coupled with certain classes but not solely reliant on them.

There’s optimal and viable. Most choose optimal because they want to win.

This thread isnt discussing DH, and as history as shown classes are rarely comparable when it comes to their unique issues.

Also, the reasons around your progress are spurious at best and would require analysis to be of relevance. I understand you can play “meta” and you can play “not considered meta but works”, this has no practical bearing on the awful state of chrono, however XD

My response was to a poster or two above merely stating that your spec is highly irrelevant in gaining rank.

With that said, elite specs are, unequivocally, better than the core specs and rightfully so. Everything you’ve stated can be used as a framework topic for every other class. But as I mentioned, these specs exist for a reason and are labeled as such – meta.

You can play whatever spec you want and be viable but being optimal, classes are pigeonholed.

And all that lovely prose, while perhaps witty to the dim, does in no way diminish the simple truth of both the title and original content of this post.

Chronos are absolute trash ATM. Period. Nerfed into near uselessness, with one rather lame and in itself contradictory semi-viable build left, with the only saving grace being -once again- Portal and to a far lesser degree our Elite.

There are several professions that out match us pound for pound, at the very same time in the very same build, significantly outperforming us in sustain, damage output (either spike or sustained), group utility, and even mobility. Furthermore, pretty much every other profession also outperforms us in any specialized single aspect of the game with the only noteworthy exception being Portal.

Mesmers are perfectly fine and truly need nothing at this juncture in the game. Let’s see what future patches bring.

Azukas.1426:

Mesmers are perfectly fine and truly need nothing at this juncture in the game. Let’s see what future patches bring.

Which mesmers are you talking about, specifically?

Or are you suggesting all mesmers are created equal? :)

Ross Biddle.2367:

Azukas.1426:

Mesmers are perfectly fine and truly need nothing at this juncture in the game. Let’s see what future patches bring.

Which mesmers are you talking about, specifically?

Or are you suggesting all mesmers are created equal?

My mesmer is no different than your mesmer aside from aesthetical differences.

Some like char some like asuran

@Windwalker yes chronos have been nerfed hard because when you have someone who knows how to really play the class they can outplay most other classes, or at least they could before some of these nerfs. But they are still not forced into a single build