Guild Wars 2

I realized what really bugs me about the changes: Really the meat of it is a giant buff to the easiest spec we have. They did absolutely nothing to buff mesmers’ ability to do anything mesmery. No buff to lockdown or shatter or any build that focuses on control, timing or active counter play. Just rotate through your skills and watch your enemy kill themselves attacking you with condi PU, yay.

I don’t hate on that build, it’s fun to troll sometimes, and I will play it sometimes when I being an unkillable troll or am feeling lazy. But here is why it really makes me sad that that is the build they chose to buff:

It shows that Anet really still doesn’t have a clue what to do with mesmers. It shows that the glory days of control and skillful counter play are not coming back. We’ve all been holding out for more GW1 type mesmer buffs, and this patch shows they aren’t coming. They heard that mesmers needed help, so what did they do? Buffed our ability to basically auto-pilot, because they don’t know how to do anything else. Buff our lockdown abilities, you know, basically the whole point of playing a mesmer? No. Buff shatter, our next hardest build to play correctly after lockdown? No. Buff anything that in any way raises the skill ceiling on the class? No. Players who want to play like real mesmers in GW1 got nothing here (again no hate on condi PU, if some people like it that’s fine, play how you want and have fun, I get it, but condi PU is pure GW2, not GW1 mesmer).

It’s ironic that with this patch they are going to make mesmers the class with the hands down strongest 1vX build in the game, I mean it really is going to be crazy OP, and yet at the same time have made me lose all hope that I’ll ever get anything like my beloved GW1 class back. Truly disappointed and saddened.

And the icing on this depressing cake? The changes will make condi PU so over the top OP, that it’s a near certainty we will see these changes undone/nerfed into the ground within a few weeks, and we will be right back where we are now with not much to show for it except a few bug fixes it took what a year to do (and like everyone else I’m not holding my breath that they actually managed to fix the bugs).

Truly a sad day for our once wonderful class. There are a few PS4 games on the horizon I’m waiting for, and when those come out I’ll probably say goodbye to gw2. I’ve loved this game, but it’s just hard to watch a class I love get slowly killed.

Maybe I’m missing something, but iWarden was fixed, iLeap was fixed and immensely buffed, iElasticity was fixed, we were finally given some form of AoE and usefulness in dungeons, and now we’re a part of the condi PvP meta. Why does every Mesmer always have to find something to complain about?

Yes, the scepter buff may have been excessive, but this is what ANet apparently wants and who are we to complain about someone else’s vision on their game? Honestly, I think that the scepter clones giving torment adds to the Mesmer ‘flavour’ as our clones are tormenting the minds of the enemy.

Someone else explained very nicely as to how PU isn’t going to be the gamebreaking OP spec everyone is QQing about (https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/balance/Why-PU-Mesmers-Were-Buffed)

But seriously, stop complaining or reroll to something else….or play another game entirely. I just can’t stand how a lot of the Mesmer community complains if we’re underpowered, complains if we’re able to compete with the rest of the meta, AND complains when we’re given any form of love and have the potential to be strong.

I just don’t get it.

I have to agree with Noah. I highly doubt they were sitting there thinking “Hm, what to do with Mesmer… Oh PU is in a bad place, lets buff it!”

The scepter and maimed changes were likely meant to bring Condi-shatter forward, but its just unfortunately all-too-obvious that PU is very likely to still outshine it. And all the other changes aren’t necessarily irrelevant either.

• they address the scepter being too weak.
• they address the numerous complaints about ileap
• they address the complaints about mind stab
• they address mantra of pain and daze and Mesmer lacking aoe in zergs

.. And, this is somehow a sad day?

Overall, the coming changes are good for mesmer, not sure where you’re coming from on a few of those points.

• Shatter (power): standard build buffed considerably. iLeap for sword users (don’t tell me this isn’t a buff). Mind Stab and the bug fix to IE are nice DPS increases for shatter as well.
• Shatter (condi): Buffed, slightly with maimed but adding scepter AA into the mix, it’s going to be interesting.
• Lockdown: We’re already strong. We aren’t lacking that much here, but they did give us AoE on the daze mantra. I’d consider that a win.
• PvE/WvW: The AoE mantra additions and triumphant distortion make for excellent buffs in those formats.

The only fishy thing in the new announcements is the scepter AA in relation to PU. That’s the piece that’s questionable and going to get the most griefing over.

Maybe it’s the changes they’re making don’t agree with where you feel mesmer should go. That’s another story altogether, but I think it’s pretty clear we are getting some nice buffs for our most common build types.

ileap was not buffed. it was simply fixed. now its reliable (need to test before we really know). however even with the change to ileap it still is completelly uselss because iswap has been nerfed to hell(cant swap when clone is dead). our assurety that iswap would work 100% (assuming enemy does not get out of range/dodges) is gone while that nerf remains.
and our “juke” mobility needing skill, set up, and having tons of restrictions that no other mobility skill on any other class has is also totally useless in the process.

anet should revert their nerf to iswap. or follow through with their logic and nerf every other leap in the game so they match their tool tip “leap at your FOE”

no more leaping at empty space.

Depends on how you look at it. To me, ileap was bugged and they decided to just re-work it. The re-worked iLeap, to me, is a buff. Reverting the nerf would be great, but most people I’ve seen (that actually run sword) are figuring out how to work with it.

Chaos.3579:

ileap was not buffed. it was simply fixed. now its reliable (need to test before we really know). however even with the change to ileap it still is completelly uselss because iswap has been nerfed to hell(cant swap when clone is dead). our assurety that iswap would work 100% (assuming enemy does not get out of range/dodges) is gone while that nerf remains.
and our “juke” mobility needing skill, set up, and having tons of restrictions that no other mobility skill on any other class has is also totally useless in the process.

anet should revert their nerf to iswap. or follow through with their logic and nerf every other leap in the game so they match their tool tip “leap at your FOE”

no more leaping at empty space.

I see it as a buff. Your clone is no longer prancing to the target practically yelling “INCOMING BLURRED FRENZY BURST” lol. Its immediately at the target, and unless you’re trying to melee a War of Guard (why?), there is a good chance your clone will survive the 1s needed to preform the swap.

I don’t know where, but someone made a really good point about not being able to leap to a clone that’s already dead. Why should Mesmers be able to leap to a clone that isn’t there if turrets should not be allowed to blast finish a healing turrets water field if an opponent destroys the turret before a turrets self destruct is activated, blood fiend should not be life transfer healing the necro once it is destroyed, or shield of avenger should not be putting up its defenses to destroy projectile once it is killed by an enemy player?

All in all, I think we’re going to come out in a good place.

skcamow.3527:

Overall, the coming changes are good for mesmer, not sure where you’re coming from on a few of those points.

• Shatter (power): standard build buffed considerably. iLeap for sword users (don’t tell me this isn’t a buff). Mind Stab and the bug fix to IE are nice DPS increases for shatter as well.
• Shatter (condi): Buffed, slightly with maimed but adding scepter AA into the mix, it’s going to be interesting.
• Lockdown: We’re already strong. We aren’t lacking that much here, but they did give us AoE on the daze mantra. I’d consider that a win.
• PvE/WvW: The AoE mantra additions and triumphant distortion make for excellent buffs in those formats.

The only fishy thing in the new announcements is the scepter AA in relation to PU. That’s the piece that’s questionable and going to get the most griefing over.

Maybe it’s the changes they’re making don’t agree with where you feel mesmer should go. That’s another story altogether, but I think it’s pretty clear we are getting some nice buffs for our most common build types.

agree….and am especially interested to see if the mantra changes and triumphant dist for iZerker will be enough to zerg effectively in www. also interested to see if they actually were able to fix the buggs they said they did (IE especially).

if it is, i’ll be pulling my mesmer off the shelf it’s been on.

Noah.9654:

Maybe I’m missing something

You sort of are, let me try to explain.

Noah.9654:

but iWarden was fixed

iWarden has been “fixed” before. The devs no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt, and so until I see it in front of me working correctly, I will assume that not only will it not be fixed, it will actually be broken even worse.

Noah.9654:

iElasticity was fixed

Same as iWarden. iElasticity has supposedly been “fixed” before. Until I see it working, I’ll assume that it won’t work.

Noah.9654:

iLeap was fixed and immensely buffed

Not exactly. I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to with immensely buffed at all actually. Having the clone summon on target basically gives us the functionality that it is supposed to have, just without the pathing issues that they were unable to resolve. However, it leaves us with quite a few downsides.

1. It no longer is a double leap finisher, as the first leap finish was removed.
2. Whether it can still be used without LoS is in question. If the no-LoS functionality was removed, then it was an enormous nerf.
3. The skill will still be 100% entirely useless in large groups. Pathing wasn’t the main problem in zergs, it’s the fact that the clone dies instantly upon being summoned. With the lag in group fights, it’s fair to assume the clone will be dead before you can swap.
4. The skill still has significantly less room for skillful usage without the clone dying functionality. It means that the ONLY way to use this skill is to put the clone out and then swap immediately, because any other way doesn’t work due to the clone dying. It’s no longer something that you can use to play mind games or in interesting ways. It’s purely a skill that you double click to gap close with. This means not only is it less interesting, it’s also enormously less functional than every other leap skill in the game, which allow for gap closing/opening, don’t require targets, and don’t waste the cooldown if used outside of range.

Basically, this change makes iLeap just barely usable, but still crap.

Noah.9654:

we were finally given some form of AoE and usefulness in dungeons

We’ve never had a problem with aoe in dungeons. Mainhand sword cleaves just as well as anything else. The issue is that our damage is still on the low side due to phantasms squishing, and it remains to be seen if the iWarden actually works. If it does, then we’re going to be pretty ok in dungeons.

Noah.9654:

and now we’re a part of the condi PvP meta

If by this you’re referring to the torment on scepter auto, then let me explain why this is ultimately a bad thing.

Firstly, conditions on autoattacks is simply bad/lazy design. It was apparently too difficult to come up with a creative way to make scepter autoattacks interesting (despite no lack of suggestions), and so torment was added. This is overall bad for the class and bad for the game.

Next, this is going to be incredibly strong. Incredibly strong things leads to incredibly loud complaining, and incredibly loud complaining leads to heavy-handed unnecessary nerfs (see confusion, glamour builds, blurred frenzy). So ultimately this change gets us a month or two of fun, followed by some enormous unspecified nerf that’ll probably kill a good subset of mesmer condition builds, and pidgeonhole us even more into PU.

We don’t have to search hard to find things to complain about. They’re handed to us on a silver platter. Yes, there were some very significant good changes…but there’s also a lot of not so great. I’m far too jaded to applaud the devs for the proverbial ‘a broken clock is right twice a day’, and so I’m all too happy to point out and pick on the stuff that is still horrid and needs work.

Chaos.3579:

ileap was not buffed. it was simply fixed. now its reliable (need to test before we really know). however even with the change to ileap it still is completelly uselss because iswap has been nerfed to hell(cant swap when clone is dead). our assurety that iswap would work 100% (assuming enemy does not get out of range/dodges) is gone while that nerf remains.
and our “juke” mobility needing skill, set up, and having tons of restrictions that no other mobility skill on any other class has is also totally useless in the process.

anet should revert their nerf to iswap. or follow through with their logic and nerf every other leap in the game so they match their tool tip “leap at your FOE”

no more leaping at empty space.

it is a buff cause previosuly it was IMPOSSIBLE to get a clone up a slope,now you can and even use it like blink.

What makes me – somewhat – sad is that again all changes are based on PvP-balance. Specifically, a large focus is given to sPvP-centric changes as opposed to WvW-balancing or PvE-reworking of classes.

Or even such basic things that our clones/phantasms should be the class bar skills, not shatter. And shatter should be on weapons/utilities instead (so we have a context-free class mechanic).

Pyro explained a little more where I’m coming from, but I guess I’ll clarify further as there were some strong responses:

First off this patch didn’t bring mesmers into the condi meta, we were already there. If you don’t see many mesmers running condi, the conclusion isn’t that we can’t, it’s that many don’t like the play style. PU condi is a strong build, granted someone has to keep attacking you for it to work, but the huge amount of QQ tells you it is powerful. Anyone who has tried it and knows a little of what they are doing knows it is strong. So as I said, they buffed a strong point, thus skewing us further in an already strong direction. As Pyro said reiterated above and as I already said, in the end this will lead to a nerf and end up being a net loss to our class.

Let me also point out that if they were trying to bring condi shatter forward, then that just shows even more that they don’t understand the class. The reasons why a condi shatter won’t work have been laid out elsewhere, so I won’t derail on that.

The Mantra things are just dressing, parsley without any steak. AoE MoP isn’t going to somehow make mesmers start kicking kitten in zergs. Yes AoE MoD will be nice in sPvP, yes I agree that change is solid, but it’s not going to revolutionize any builds. CI is still the same build, just now you may get an extra interrupt or two. So yes nice buff on MoD, but given the deep problems we have, I still call it dressing relative to those.

I do not consider bug fixes buffs. Pyro explained above why the ileap fix isn’t that amazing, and it just goes to show how abused and neglected our class is that “OMG OUR SKILLZ WORK NOW” is what they get when they fix a skill that has been stupidly broken for a year. Of course I’m happy we have a phantasm that works, but honestly the response should be “It’s about time.”

Before you snap at me telling me to reroll, be aware that your post makes it clear I think to many that you don’t have a well developed perspective on the class.

Look at it this way: Was anyone (besides semi-clueless people wanting to condi in dungeons) saying condi needed a buff? Not really. So what were we complaining about? Bugs yes, but that is just basically not being kittenin kittened as a company, yes we want a functioning skill bar. What about all the deeper issues with the class that have been discussed on these forums, the various contradictions that really prevent us from reaching the full potential of the class.

Case and point: the build that got buffed was condi PU, a build that essentially makes no use of our F1-F4 skills. Sure ya ok people can take maim the whatever, but most people know why condi shatter will suck compared to PU. Rather than moving the class further towards skillful play and better use of our core class mechanic, they moved us away from it.

A lot of responses are “We are stronger now why are you complaining?!” I’m complaining because we were already strong, spec PU condi and hardly anyone will beat you 1v2. Most people don’t complain about being unable to kill anything. They complain about being unable to kill anything if they try to play the mesmer as it should be played. That’s my complaint.

I’m not the only one making that complaint. Lots of others have stated how they are disappointed that they are buffing us in this way, buffing something that didn’t need a buff. They just do it with a lot of insults directed at PU so people ignore them.

TL;DR: The class has deep issues that need addressing, issues besides bugged skills, and not a single one was really addressed with these changes. In fact the changes push us further away from the roots of what the mesmer is supposed to be.

just remove pu.. that works for me .. i main a mesmer and pu is kind of embarrasing to the profession.

Remove PU? Because some players don’t want to be associated with “cheese” ? Should we kill build diversity to satisfy the pride of a few people?

no. first of all i think pu is a garbage spec and a waste of a slot on any team. it is worse at every thing a mesmer should be doing in a match. the only point of pu is training wheels for people who cant play mesmer yet. once you have any sort of basics down pu is just holding you back from doing an actual job in a fight.

it is a slower killer.. has no boon removal. it loses movement abilities to focus on condition.. loses damage potential to focus on stealth.

slow killing, slow moving, no utility. i mean play it if you want.. remove it or not it wont change my game.. i just hope if you enter a game you are on the enemy team not mine.

my brother just rolled a mesmer.. i told him here is a pu build.. use this to get the basics down then we will move to a normal spec.

that is pretty much what its for.. once you can live without the crutch of pu you can play builds that actually help your team win a game.

Don’t worry, I don’t play sPVP. I’d prefer that the rest of the game wasn’t balanced around it.

Fay.2357:

iWarden has been “fixed” before. The devs no longer deserve the benefit of the doubt, and so until I see it in front of me working correctly, I will assume that not only will it not be fixed, it will actually be broken even worse.

This is the complaining I’m talking about. I will now refute your arguments.

Fay.2357:

Not exactly. I’m not entirely sure what you’re referring to with immensely buffed at all actually. Having the clone summon on target basically gives us the functionality that it is supposed to have, just without the pathing issues that they were unable to resolve. However, it leaves us with quite a few downsides.

Read my latter comment as to why its much better to have the clone summoned at the target than to have the clone run to the target. Its not an almost unavoidable Blurred Frenzy. That is much better than the previous iLeap even without the bugs. We don’t know if it will or won’t work without LoS, but we have no reason to automatically assume the worst. Very few Mesmers in PvP tried to ‘play mind games’ with their iLeap. It was a gap closer. No more, no less.

Fay.2357:

Firstly, conditions on autoattacks is simply bad/lazy design. It was apparently too difficult to come up with a creative way to make scepter autoattacks interesting (despite no lack of suggestions), and so torment was added. This is overall bad for the class and bad for the game.

This is the part that perplexes me. Who exactly are you to decide whether or not something is lazy/bad design. If you were working with ANet and thus shared thier vision of their game, I would respect that. However, because it is something that you dislike, you opt to deem it as ‘lazy design’?

Fay.2357:

Next, this is going to be incredibly strong. Incredibly strong things leads to incredibly loud complaining, and incredibly loud complaining leads to heavy-handed unnecessary nerfs (see confusion, glamour builds, blurred frenzy). So ultimately this change gets us a month or two of fun, followed by some enormous unspecified nerf that’ll probably kill a good subset of mesmer condition builds, and pidgeonhole us even more into PU.

I make this statement out to everyone. I agree that PU is a so-called ‘cheese’ build. It doesn’t take a lot of skill to create or execute. However, does it every occur to anyone that this game is a casual MMO? The need for skill to play isn’t supposed to be a priority. The only places where you need skill (t/sPvP and to some degree, WvW) are the places where PU Mesmer builds aren’t that great. In PvP, PU can’t hold a point and bunkers can literally ignore the mesmer, decap, and even full cap. In WvW, you can choose to runaway from the PU Mesmer (which might now require a condi cleanse because of torment). So after the hype has died down, I doubt there will be too much complaining. People will never use PU builds in tournaments; plain and simple.

Now, as most people have been discussing already, the torment buff will most likely not even be used on PU builds. In short, the buff is giving us a better option for condi builds that could very well take us out of the low tier class level. If they have to nerf us because we might be too OP after the update, that will be fine. At worst they’ll just take away torment from our clones and we’ll still have great condi specs.

Fay.2357:

We don’t have to search hard to find things to complain about. They’re handed to us on a silver platter. Yes, there were some very significant good changes…but there’s also a lot of not so great. I’m far too jaded to applaud the devs for the proverbial ‘a broken clock is right twice a day’, and so I’m all too happy to point out and pick on the stuff that is still horrid and needs work.

If you’re actively searching for reasons to be unhappy, why are you still here? With all due respect, the Mesmer community—given all that its already been through—really doesn’t need your negativity. All you’re doing is dissuading new players from rolling Mesmer. I don’t even see how you still play a Mesmer (if at all in which case, why complain) if you’re so unhappy about it.

PU will not be removed and is very unlikely to change you see condi PU mesmer the devs see PU GM trait in a toughness/boon duration trait line.

PvE is already is already focused on all that damage it would kill the game if PvP and WwW were too.

Noah.9654:

Read my latter comment as to why its much better to have the clone summoned at the target than to have the clone run to the target. Its now an almost unavoidable Blurred Frenzy.

You say this as if it has no counter. The skill still has a cast time, and the clone can still be killed in a single autoattack unless you swap instantly….in which case it can simply be dodged by someone that dodges when they see the clone appear.

Noah.9654:

Very few Mesmers in PvP tried to ‘play mind games’ with their iLeap. It was a gap closer. No more, no less.

This is outright false. Poor mesmer players didn’t utilize iLeap to its best potential. Skilled mesmer players did. This is one of the things that showed the difference.

Noah.9654:

This is the part that perplexes me. Who exactly are you to decide whether or not something is lazy/bad design. If you were working with ANet and thus shared thier vision of their game, I would respect that. However, because it is something that you dislike, you opt to deem it as ‘lazy design’?

I call it lazy/bad design because it makes the game less skillful. It takes no skill to spam autoattacks to apply conditions, and the counter to that is simply spamming condition removals to remove them. Skillful play is when you have high impact skills that need to be countered in some way. By placing conditions on autoattacks instead of making more high impact skills, it reduces the amount of skillful play possible. This makes it lazy/bad design.

Noah.9654:

-snip for efficient use of space-

Note that I’m not complaining about PU at all. I enjoy playing PU myself, it’s more useful in tPvP than most people give it credit for (see my solo queue guide), and I never fault anyone else for playing it. However, the issue that I have is with incredibly limited build diversity.

Noah.9654:

Now, as most people have been discussing already, the torment buff will most likely not even be used on PU builds. In short, the buff is giving us a better option for condi builds that could very well take us out of the low tier class level. If they have to nerf us because we might be too OP after the update, that will be fine. At worst they’ll just take away torment from our clones and we’ll still have great condi specs.

Scepter is a staple of all condie builds, and PU condie builds are the only good PU builds, so all good PU builds will be using the torment. It’s going to be incredibly strong, and it’ll probably be nerfed at some point.

Now, you’ve mentioned a quite balanced way to nerf it into something less painful, but this again gives the devs the benefit of the doubt, and they don’t deserve this. Their record shows either nerfs that do absolutely nothing or nerfs that are incredibly over-the-top, with very little middle ground. This means that we can safely make the assumption that something will get overnerfed and limit our build diversity even more.

This is where I have an issue with PU. There’s nothing wrong with playing the build that you choose, the problem is when it starts to become the only viable set of builds. PU is the only viable set of builds while solo roaming in WvW, and it’s the only build you can use in PvP without being immediately hard-countered by a thief on the other team. Limited build diversity is always bad, and overnerfing mechanics as Anet is wont to do leads to limited build diversity.

Noah.9654:

If you’re actively searching for reasons to be unhappy, why are you still here? With all due respect, the Mesmer community—given all that its already been through—really doesn’t need your negativity. All you’re doing is dissuading new players from rolling Mesmer. I don’t even see how you still play a Mesmer (if at all in which case, why complain) if you’re so unhappy about it.

I used to play mesmer. I used to enjoy playing the class, and that’s why I’m here. I no longer enjoy playing the class, and subsequently I no longer enjoy playing the game, so I can be found in Firefall and more normally in Dragon Nest. That being said, I want to enjoy playing mesmer and GW2 again, and so I take every opportunity to do what I can to cause positive change for this class.

skcamow.3527:

(don’t tell me this isn’t a buff).

Its a bug fix.

2 years into the game we shouldn’t be excited and thanking them for bug fixes.

Levetty.1279:

skcamow.3527:

(don’t tell me this isn’t a buff).

Its a bug fix.

2 years into the game we shouldn’t be excited and thanking them for bug fixes.

A buff is something that is done to increase the strength of a class relative to other classes. One would think this is done with some planning, as in we will give class A skill X and this will be ok relative to all other classes. Well that already happened with iLeap and iWarden, the game was balanced around us having those skills working. Except they didn’t so we’ve been playing without them. Just fixing those skills brings us back to where we were when they were given to us in terms of balance. Yes having working skills makes us stronger, but like he said this isn’t a buff the way making MoD aoe is a buff.

@Pyro:
In the ReadyUp vid on Dulfy, I saw the new iLeap still maintains its double leap finisher as Karl used it in Chaos Storm.
Can someone confirm if this is true or not?

Levetty.1279:

skcamow.3527:

(don’t tell me this isn’t a buff).

Its a bug fix.

2 years into the game we shouldn’t be excited and thanking them for bug fixes.

Take what I said in a further post to put it into further context.

skcamow.3527:

Depends on how you look at it. To me, ileap was bugged and they decided to just re-work it. The re-worked iLeap, to me, is a buff. Reverting the nerf would be great, but most people I’ve seen (that actually run sword) are figuring out how to work with it.

keenlam.4753:

@Pyro:
In the ReadyUp vid on Dulfy, I saw the new iLeap still maintains its double leap finisher as Karl used it in Chaos Storm.
Can someone confirm if this is true or not?

That could be, I may have received faulty info.

keenlam.4753:

@Pyro:
In the ReadyUp vid on Dulfy, I saw the new iLeap still maintains its double leap finisher as Karl used it in Chaos Storm.
Can someone confirm if this is true or not?

In the video only the clone gains chaos armor when the leap is initiated inside the chaos storm. Right now both the clone and the Mesmer gain chaos armor. It’s pretty big nerf to chaos armor uptime for the Mesmer….. as you need to swap inside an ethereal field before the real Mesmer gain the chaos armor…. so if someone kill your clone before you swap, you have no chance to gain chaos armor…. I’m not liking it.

What this means is the first leap isn’t a leap finisher (for the real Mesmer). Only the swap is a leap finisher.

I don’t feel like the fact that Blackwater gets stronger as a result of this is in any way significant. In “normal” use, Blackwater is a 1v1-build. There is no 1v1 game mode. Our condition setups are very weak in group situations. Maybe with this they’ll be less weak.

If Blackwater also gets stronger as a result, so what? Devs don’t exactly care about the PvE side effects of the PvP-centric balancing, I doubt they care about a game format they don’t even provide more, all of a sudden.

Sorry, not really seeing the issue with worsening 1v1 balance. Not the intended way of fighting. Especially because PU builds are bad in sPvP as it is.

Chaos.3579:

ileap was not buffed. it was simply fixed. now its reliable (need to test before we really know). however even with the change to ileap it still is completelly uselss because iswap has been nerfed to hell(cant swap when clone is dead). our assurety that iswap would work 100% (assuming enemy does not get out of range/dodges) is gone while that nerf remains.
and our “juke” mobility needing skill, set up, and having tons of restrictions that no other mobility skill on any other class has is also totally useless in the process.

anet should revert their nerf to iswap. or follow through with their logic and nerf every other leap in the game so they match their tool tip “leap at your FOE”

no more leaping at empty space.

Did you really just claim Ileap wasn’t buffed (“it was fixed”) and then say it was nerfed with the “no swap if clone is dead” change? Lol. You either accept it as a nerf and a buff, or two fixes.

Scepter auto attack is garbage without the torment, it does a couple hundred damage and is slower than sword. May I remind you the torment is REALLY short on the scepter, so stop QQing.
Mesmer have absolutely FAIL ranged aoe dps, so this mantra aoe business is really great.

• I’ll happily take the AoE improvements (which, IMHO, should have been done back when the other two Mantras were made AoE).
• Working IE was promised back in bleeding April, so if they finally managed to make it happen, good. I knew I kept my Rabid set for something .
• Warden should have never been “fixed” in the first place. Most Mesmers I see posting, and/or run into in game … preferred a starionary Warden.
• ILeap is fine. Let’s be realistic … all the QQ in this game, we were either losing swap-to-dead-clone or stunbreak. I’ll pick less pathing BS and stunbreak, if I must choose. Especially with how long pathing has sucked frigging donkeys on that skill.
• Mind Stab, I was really hoping for the pulsing charged AoE that was discussed. I wonder what happened to that concept, tbh.
• Torment on Scepter AA. I’ve commented elsewhere on that, so this version will be brief. NOPE. Give me more of “my” Condition. And in a stylish way. Getting a bit tired of Confusion on non-Mesmers.

we have no idea if ileap will need line of sight to work.(ileap before hand could go around corners to a degree, ect so long as it was in range)
as well as otehr restrictions the skill may have. so i think its best to wait and see.

however! the big thing to note aside from functionality is that ileap is still broken. simply because it can be countered by killing the clone!..
ileap DOES NOT deserve this kind of counter ability making it useless in a aoe/zerg/mid fight situations. and reducing the skill ceiling that the skill once had to something pathetic

IF the clone had a invulnerable,evade buff, or simply immune to damage SO WE CAN use iswap then this skill would be were it needs to be. personally i preferred it were we could simply use the skill to swap toward/to the location were the clone died. this made sure that we were able to actually use the skill albeit the clones location be it dead or alive might have been altered by cc or being killed by a ranged attack or aoe before it reached its desired location.
it also allowed more uses that other class’s can do with their leaps but on a much more restricted and player skill requiring level.

uses that were creative and needed plenty of skill and timing to even be remotely useful.

the nerf to iswap made the primary function of the skill useless in the majority of non pointless smale scale situations, and it eliminated the other use’s such as mobility which again other class’s can do with their leaps with fewer restrictions and far more effectively and easily.
it also dumbed down the skills usage so that it had a single usable use that does not work half of the time.

iswap is very simply : a 600 in game units teleport toward/to the clones location. WITH a very short window of 4 seconds after using ileap.
what difference does it make if the clone is dead? we had to be in range OF a target to even use the skill, the duration of the time that we are able to teleport to the clone be it alive or dead is exactly the same. in fact the skills total effectiveness is HIGHER if the clone is alive because it will home in on the target.

from a balance perspective the nerf imbalanced the skill by making it usless in most situations and and reduced the skillcap on it dramatically by forcing us to spam ileap right in to iswap instead of timed swaps and strategy.. begging the question “why?”

if it was because….of the tool tip saying “swap to clone”
and they thought “it is ridiculous for Mesmer’s to be able to swap to the location of a dead clone. a dead clone who’s summon had the restriction of needing to have a target and be in a very short range, AND having a very short window to actually swap to after using ileap”

then by that very same logic!
all leaps that have a tool tip saying “leap to your foe” or any equivalent in meaning
should be “fixed” so that they match their tool tip by having the requirement of needing a target!

example: thief’s heart seeker. http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Heartseeker
“Leap and strike your foe.”
it specifically states that the skill should leap and strike a foe
so is it not ridiculousness that a thief should be able to leap at….nothing?
or for a warrior to dash( “Charge your foe”) away from a opponent?

oh i know they have secondary effects that everyone uses. such as running away or using it to spam combo finishers. mesmer had a 2nd effect to their leap as well…..
only it needed skill and not spamming with tons of restrictions that i am not even applying to these leaps

People saying as if anet thought it through with these changes?.. since when have they actually think properly with class balance?.. remember those dhummfire changes?.. or the healing signet buffs as well as giving warriors plenty of immunities?.. what about those turret buffs for engineer?.. or the celestial buff on top of buffing ele sustain all on the same patch?.. its clear that anet is making the same mistake as always and are not improving on their way of approaching balance.

Fay.2357:

You say this as if it has no counter. The skill still has a cast time, and the clone can still be killed in a single autoattack unless you swap instantly….in which case it can simply be dodged by someone that dodges when they see the clone appear.

So if its not OP and has counters, its bad? That isn’t good logic whatsoever. And, as you’ll read below, good Mesmers do swap instantly.

Fay.2357:

This is outright false. Poor mesmer players didn’t utilize iLeap to its best potential. Skilled mesmer players did. This is one of the things that showed the difference.

You don’t play PvP much, do you? Rhetorical question since you’ve stated that you don’t play at all. No good Mesmer (read: 90%) tries to ‘play mind games’ with the swap. If you look at tournaments or high level play, you’ll see that it was used solely as a gap closer. There isn’t really any ‘mind games’ going on in skilled play because its hilariously easy to tell a real Mesmer from his clones and put a target on him. Our only saving grace from this is that we have skills to drop the target. I have no idea where you got this ‘mind games’ idea from the swap.

Fay.2357:

I call it lazy/bad design because it makes the game less skillful. It takes no skill to spam autoattacks to apply conditions, and the counter to that is simply spamming condition removals to remove them. Skillful play is when you have high impact skills that need to be countered in some way. By placing conditions on autoattacks instead of making more high impact skills, it reduces the amount of skillful play possible. This makes it lazy/bad design.

Read my previous post about skill. Because ANet has stated over and over again—even making it their marketing brand—that this is a casual MMO (meaning anyone should be able to play despite actual playtime), skill isn’t their first concern. Now, we all know that ANet will accommodate players who invest their time and money to develop skill in the form of tournaments, but in these tournament play, nobody will use PU builds. At all. At worse, I can see Mesmers running much better condi-shatter builds but I think that will just put us on par with better tier classes. And again, at worst, ANet will just take away torment from our clones and we’ll still be better than we were.

Fay.2357:

This is where I have an issue with PU. There’s nothing wrong with playing the build that you choose, the problem is when it starts to become the only viable set of builds. PU is the only viable set of builds while solo roaming in WvW, and it’s the only build you can use in PvP without being immediately hard-countered by a thief on the other team. Limited build diversity is always bad, and overnerfing mechanics as Anet is wont to do leads to limited build diversity.

This part is blatantly false and under the assumption that you’re actively trying to 1v1 a Thief. The general rule is if you can cripple the Thief with iZerker or mark it with iDuelist, you will have an upper hand for most of the fight. Mesmers have some up with multiple ways to deal with a Thief and even more will be available once they are nerfed after the patch. Many videos on this thread even show that you can beat a skilled thief with lockdown builds.

tPvP and to some degree sPvP should never have you trying to 1v1 anything unless you are a bunker build. Yes, I know that its pretty stinking hard to get out of a 1v1 with a thief, but as you’ll see in higher level play and tournaments, players will know how many thieves are in-game and plan accordingly. If they are pressured by a thief, you go on the defensive and communicate with your team. This is much harder on sPvP but I feel like it is more of a Thief problem than a Mesmer problem

Fay.2357:

I used to play mesmer. I used to enjoy playing the class, and that’s why I’m here. I no longer enjoy playing the class, and subsequently I no longer enjoy playing the game, so I can be found in Firefall and more normally in Dragon Nest. That being said, I want to enjoy playing mesmer and GW2 again, and so I take every opportunity to do what I can to cause positive change for this class.

If you no longer enjoy playing the class or no longer play the game, why waste anyone’s time complaining? I could understand a little angst if you were actively playing the game and looking for ways to work through the Mesmer’s problems but that obviously isn’t the case. You’re kinda just complaining for the sake of complaining.

noah, i am one of the ppl who always utilized the iLeap b4 ‘bug fix’ properly, it allows for insanely mind games, instead just spamming it.

I don’t want to turn this into a flame war, but I think some clarification could help. Noah, pretty sure you do not now of what you speak here. When Pyro or others say mind games with iLeap, it’s basically the same thing you do with focus temporal curtain: You use the the first part of the skillet o bait a dodge. One of the “mind games” is making your opponent try to guess about when you are going to hit the imob, similar to how laying down a TC and letting your opponent know see it for a few seconds makes them worry about when the pull is coming, and they end up trying to time their dodge and it’s a mind game you are playing with them. Others can speak more about other ways they use ileap. Personally I’ll take a less bugged skill, but at least I get where others are coming from.

I don’t know where you’re coming from on the idea that buffing skillful play isn’t important. You’re free to have whatever opinion you want, but I think most mesmers do want a high skill ceiling available to them and want changes that reward skillful play over ones that don’t. These changes do nothing for that and are just a buff to the lowest skill ceiling (and floor btw) build we have. Yes we are stronger, but are we stronger in a way that is good for the long term health of the class?

Noah.9654:

Fay.2357:

This is outright false. Poor mesmer players didn’t utilize iLeap to its best potential. Skilled mesmer players did. This is one of the things that showed the difference.

You don’t play PvP much, do you?

I lol’d.

Menaka.5092:

Noah.9654:

Fay.2357:

This is outright false. Poor mesmer players didn’t utilize iLeap to its best potential. Skilled mesmer players did. This is one of the things that showed the difference.

You don’t play PvP much, do you?

I lol’d.

me 2. noah claims are comedy gold and the perfect example of whats not a skilled mesmer

I.. Kinda lol’d too. X.x

Lifestealer.4910:

People saying as if anet thought it through with these changes?.. since when have they actually think properly with class balance?.. remember those dhummfire changes?.. or the healing signet buffs as well as giving warriors plenty of immunities?.. what about those turret buffs for engineer?.. or the celestial buff on top of buffing ele sustain all on the same patch?.. its clear that anet is making the same mistake as always and are not improving on their way of approaching balance.

+10000
but back to days war buffs are reasonable , they were trash tier in tpvp . But anet overbuffed them sigh. About eles there is a simple fact that many eles are just bad and before the last balance patch eles were trash in tpvp too , so anet overbuffed them again, also it seems they wont nerf them back in 1-2 months.
I believe bad players do affect anet’s decision .those players always think ele arent powerful enough now or mesmer is god because targeting real one is to hard to learn or war has something bad (check those outcry for “nerf” to war in next patch ).
Anet should listen to their best pvp players more than “pvp community”. the actual major of pvp community in teamQ or soloQ just want easy win.

Fay.2357:

Next, this is going to be incredibly strong. Incredibly strong things leads to incredibly loud complaining, and incredibly loud complaining leads to heavy-handed unnecessary nerfs (see confusion, glamour builds, blurred frenzy). So ultimately this change gets us a month or two of fun, followed by some enormous unspecified nerf that’ll probably kill a good subset of mesmer condition builds, and pidgeonhole us even more into PU.

Someone’s being very optimistic. Since when have we been Warriors when it comes to nerfs?

I’m actually really happy with the skill bar, the indirect PU buffs are kinda meh I don’t think this will change much, it’s strong and it’s only a tad stronger now big whop. Low risk crap runs rampant in this game all the time.

shatter and interupt did in a way get a buff with the i-leap throwing the clone reliably. I’m going to enjoy Ileap into diversion when I don’t want to get close :p. Also I think the mind stab buff will help give that little extra oomph to early fight pressure.

The only thing that kind of dissapoints me is things like I-Warden working, and fixing I-Elasticity and I guess to a lesser degree I-leap being featured. Altho I-leap had a major functionality change the others are clearly bug fixes that we really should not have had to wait so long to get. Why do we have to wait for a feature patch to fix our bugs, which are inherently build breaking to begin with? Even more so when I-Elasticity was supposed to be fixed in April?

I get that there are other priorities but you’d think general bug fixes like this should just come out when they are ready, and some resources and development priority should be put into making sure this kind of stuff is ready sooner.

iLeap has been turned into something similar to Thief Sword#2, I’m sad we lost the exciting play you could have from before the “no swap on clone death” but thats never coming back and at least we have a good gap closer for sword now.

The condi buffs are very dangerous and people who are defending it are really underestimating what the clones applying constant streams of condis will do – remember they will also be causing bleed on crits and bleed/weakness/vuln on destruction too.

Scepter needed work but they have really made it a dangerous weapon for the health of the game. A reasonable tweek to the change would maybe be to remove the Torment from the first bolt – this will stop clones applying it cause they only perform the first attack in the chain. (Assuming they want to keep the Torment on auto at all)