Guild Wars 2

I’ve seen like 4 different threads on mesmer forum saying “continuum shift needs nerf” or “portal too op” or “double moa wtf no Nerf” it’d be fine if other classes were complaining but why are mesmers complaining about their own skills? And then they complain when anet takes them serious and nerfs everything.

Primarily because non-mesmers come to the mesmer forum to kitten and moan about mesmers.

The other reason is that plenty of mesmers would be pretty happy to see portal and moa get nerfs. The issue is that those 2 skills are so strong, they allow the devs to continually nerf the class without removing its usability in team PvP. This means you end up with a crappy one trick pony that isn’t fun to play all because those 2 skills carry it. If those 2 skills got nerfed, that excuse would evaporate.

Also, the mesmers have a long history of self hatred. They have always, since practically the beginning, cried for nerfs to their own class. It seems to be just the pvp’ers, though. They seem to always think they are overpowered, or that some particular build is “cheesy”, and yet the mesmer is pretty darn weak in pve.

The mesmer is a pretty unique class. I have never seen anything like it in any games I have ever played. I still play it because the mechanic can be very fun. But now I spend the majority of my time playing other classes because the damage is substandard.

I don’t know about self-hatred. I’ve seen alot of people in this forum (at least back when I first started playing, it may have gotten diluted since the core game went F2P) who actually wanted everything to be balanced, and if we had something that was grossly OP, they’d point it out in the interest of game balance, but not out of self-hatred.

As Fay is saying. Right now for example, people will tell you mesmer is strong in PvP because it is picked by many competitive teams. The problem is that it is picked only for portal and moa, it is not really good on its own.

Asking for nerfing portal and moa (actually instead of moa, I’d rather nerf continuum split) is a way for us to get buffs in other areas.

That would be great, if that was the way it worked out. But you and I both know that it is unlikely to work that way. Anet seems to almost always start by nerfing what you don’t want nerfed. How many times do you have to be hit in the head by the nerf hammer before learning to try to avoid the hammer?

Silverkey.2078:

Asking for nerfing portal and moa (actually instead of moa, I’d rather nerf continuum split) is a way for us to get buffs in other areas.

Yai!!!

They surely gonna add at least 2 more points to attack speed % on scepter to compensate the eventual moa and portal nerf.

And if they’d also gonna nerf cs we can even have some more hpwr on mantra heal!

Let’s rock!!!

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

All the elites feel required right now tbh.

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

Ah yes, the classic ‘lets eviscerate PvE mesmers because the PvP folks are getting antsy’ suggestion. I’ll pass on that one.

Stuff like this is the main reason that the devs (in truth) rarely pay attention to feedback from players. The balance devs aren’t experienced enough with the game to be able to separate the unbiased feedback from the biased feedback, but they are intelligent enough to realize that 99% of feedback given is myopically focused on one aspect of the game with zero consideration for anything else. Therefor, they make the judgement call that operating with zero feedback is better than operating with potentially awful feedback.

Fay, you do the same thing, only for the side of the pvp’ers, when you ask for nerfs.

Fay.2357:

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

Ah yes, the classic ‘lets eviscerate PvE mesmers because the PvP folks are getting antsy’ suggestion. I’ll pass on that one.

Stuff like this is the main reason that the devs (in truth) rarely pay attention to feedback from players. The balance devs aren’t experienced enough with the game to be able to separate the unbiased feedback from the biased feedback, but they are intelligent enough to realize that 99% of feedback given is myopically focused on one aspect of the game with zero consideration for anything else. Therefor, they make the judgement call that operating with zero feedback is better than operating with potentially awful feedback.

I don’t say it because of PvP people and their sudden hatred of “double moa”. I genuinely feel like F5 is like a one trick pony just the same as Mao and portal that are being complained about by yourself.

Course they shouldn’t remove F5 without doing something about the rest of the problems mesmer has. Mind you hoping for that is like hoping Superman will swoop you off to the Bahamas by past history.

What they already said.

A few powerful utilities hide how weak the foundation of the class really is. “Veil/Moa/Portal/Alacrity”-bot. That’s what it boils down to.

Power shatter is astonishingly kitten, certainly the worst it has ever been (not helped by other classes’ elite specs still being brokenly OP), nevermind many other builds just not being good enough. Condi may be a “fad” right now, but it’s still pretty weak when analysed.

Yes they may just continue to nerf (if the trend of the last 3 years is anything to go by) and not compensate, but on the flipside I doubt certain areas will be buffed/fixed until certain other things are dealt with.

redcomyn.4651:

Fay, you do the same thing, only for the side of the pvp’ers, when you ask for nerfs.

I’m going to go ahead and say that you’re lying. I have literally never advocated a nerf to Mesmer in PvE, so your statement is categorically false.

On top of that, I can fully and completely justify any nerfs I have advocated for. I don’t randomly run around the forums screaming ‘Nerf!’ I suggest that something needs a nerf, I suggest a viable method of nerfing it, and I explain the logic behind why that method will accomplish the stated goal without causing undo harm to other situations.

I challenge you to find any examples contrary to what I’ve just stated. Go on, I’ll wait.

This is what I mean. I love continuum shift and wouldn’t want to see it go. But I’m probably a minority in the majority of mesmers that seem to hate themselves. I enjoy every aspect of the class (which could use some work) but that doesn’t mean I’m going to be like “ugh mesmer Nerf goodbye gw2”. Yes portal is almost necessary in PvP but if you don’t want to run it, don’t. As for mesmer self loathers, please don’t ruin it for the minority that doesn’t hate the class. That’s the purpose of this thread (which seems futile as I read the responses)

redcomyn.4651:

Also, the mesmers have a long history of self hatred. They have always, since practically the beginning, cried for nerfs to their own class. It seems to be just the pvp’ers, though. They seem to always think they are overpowered, or that some particular build is “cheesy”, and yet the mesmer is pretty darn weak in pve.

The mesmer is a pretty unique class. I have never seen anything like it in any games I have ever played. I still play it because the mechanic can be very fun. But now I spend the majority of my time playing other classes because the damage is substandard.

yep, this is 100%. It’s a very self defeating community.

Yes lol, please stop hating yourselves. You are all beautiful pink butterflies

I don’t hate mesmer. I know we are one of the most despised professions, people just don’t know how to fight mesmers, and this leads to a lot of calls for nerf. 75% of my time in gw2 is on my mesmer, 75% of my PvP games are as mesmer. I don’t have any interest in asking for nerf.

But I love balance and build diversity. I would love a gw2 where every profession is equally viable (meaning that your own proficiency will always be more important than the class you choose) and can play different roles and playstyles (like bunker chrono vs shatter mesmer) while still feeling unique (a bunker guard and a bunker mesmer should play and support differently).

Currently, mesmer is viable in PvP only because of our elites, portal and continuum split. This prevents build diversity. Same thing in PvE, where we are viable only as a quickness and alacrity bot.

So I ask for nerfs to remedy that. Continuum split (CS) is a main offender for me, I think 10s Moa is fine, it really does not do that much considering that the moa skills are quite good. So Moa is balanced for its CD. Same thing with gravity well, it is a strong skill but nothing to complain about. Now double gravity well means 6s of AOE CC (+ some decent damage) that many builds just cannot easily counter, continuum split Moa means more than halved cooldown. You just cannot balance that. And people are complaining so much about Moa that a-net may very well nerf it. This means that Moa will become a bad skill, only balanced because of CS.

An example: post 23 june patch, mesmers were a bit too good. And many here in the forums suggested a few “well placed” nerfs, including for example confounding suggestion (ooh, another CS :p ) since we felt that these were the main problems. Instead, mantras got demolished and we lost a bounce in mirror blade. GG

Other example, during HoT beta, I suggested a reduction of the block duration of shield and of well of precog because already then I felt bunker chrono was too good. Well… we got those as well as a generalized slaughter of so many things uncalled for to overcompensate for a build that made pro league unwatchable.

So yes, I and many other mesmer often ask for nerfs, and if a-net listened to those, mesmer would probably be in a better spot right now.

It’s not about self loathing, it’s about balance. Balance between classes, balance within each classes skills/traits and balance between base Mesmer and Chrono. Elite specs were meant to be side-grades not upgrades but base mesmer already had a lot of problems as is with portal and moa complaints justifying nerfs to the class. Chrono amplifies those problems with F5.

Suggestions such as make F5 portal which gets turned into CS for Chrono frees up a base mesmer utility slot which is sorely needed and prevents CS+portal combos. Personally, I don’t think this goes far enough.

F4 Base Distortion —> F4 Chrono CS
F3 Base Daze —> F3 Chrono, 4 seconds self alacrity+chill enemy
-Master of Fragmentation: AOE alacrity sharing (no more well spam)
F2 Base confusion —> F2 Chrono Torment
F1 Base DMG —> F1 Chrono: Less damage but also slows

The above changes will probably never happen. I don’t think any real main mesmer cries for nerfs because they think we are strong compared to other classes (at least not right now). It’s about the balance inside the class that needs to change and the hope(lessness) that small changes that will happen can balance things out: balancing F5 with base mesmer is impossible.

Fay.2357:

I’m going to go ahead and say that you’re lying. I have literally never advocated a nerf to Mesmer in PvE, so your statement is categorically false.

On top of that, I can fully and completely justify any nerfs I have advocated for. I don’t randomly run around the forums screaming ‘Nerf!’ I suggest that something needs a nerf, I suggest a viable method of nerfing it, and I explain the logic behind why that method will accomplish the stated goal without causing undo harm to other situations.

I challenge you to find any examples contrary to what I’ve just stated. Go on, I’ll wait.

I am not saying you randomly call for nerfs. I am sure that the ones you have asked for were all well thought out and probably justified…for pvp. They were not required or necessary for pve. Of course pvp needs class balancing, but pve doesn’t. Every class needs to feel powerful in pve. Mesmer doesn’t. Yeah, the mechanics are fun but the damage sucks, in pve.

You know, this tension between pve’ers and pvp’ers is really simple to solve. The only problem is that Anet has refused to do it. To save a little work, they are willing to live with the constant tension and bitterness and anger between the 2 different populations. This anger poisons, not just the forums, but also the game. I think this is a mistake. I think it will eventually kill the game because most people don’t like that kind of atmosphere.

redcomyn.4651:

Fay.2357:

I’m going to go ahead and say that you’re lying. I have literally never advocated a nerf to Mesmer in PvE, so your statement is categorically false.

On top of that, I can fully and completely justify any nerfs I have advocated for. I don’t randomly run around the forums screaming ‘Nerf!’ I suggest that something needs a nerf, I suggest a viable method of nerfing it, and I explain the logic behind why that method will accomplish the stated goal without causing undo harm to other situations.

I challenge you to find any examples contrary to what I’ve just stated. Go on, I’ll wait.

I am not saying you randomly call for nerfs. I am sure that the ones you have asked for were all well thought out and probably justified…for pvp. They were not required or necessary for pve. Of course pvp needs class balancing, but pve doesn’t. Every class needs to feel powerful in pve. Mesmer doesn’t. Yeah, the mechanics are fun but the damage sucks, in pve.

You know, this tension between pve’ers and pvp’ers is really simple to solve. The only problem is that Anet has refused to do it. To save a little work, they are willing to live with the constant tension and bitterness and anger between the 2 different populations. This anger poisons, not just the forums, but also the game. I think this is a mistake. I think it will eventually kill the game because most people don’t like that kind of atmosphere.

I think that it is fairly simple to balance PvE and PvP without split. Basically, everything works in open world, and classes are not really compared together. You only need to be competitive in instanced content, and there, essentially only damage (and offensive support) counts. And this is usually very easy to estimate mathematically.

Since PvP also requires survivability and people can avoid attacks, it is very easy to just tweak the survivability, the “ease of avoidance” and the utility of skills/traits to make sure everything is fine for PvP.

So I don’t think splitting PvP and PvE is the answer to anything. The problem currently is that a-net most likely does not consider balance that important and therefore, the balance team is very reduced and distracted by other tasks. This is just short-term thinking: you don’t make money from balance in short term (but you lose players because of bad balance in the long term).

redcomyn.4651:

Fay.2357:

I’m going to go ahead and say that you’re lying. I have literally never advocated a nerf to Mesmer in PvE, so your statement is categorically false.

On top of that, I can fully and completely justify any nerfs I have advocated for. I don’t randomly run around the forums screaming ‘Nerf!’ I suggest that something needs a nerf, I suggest a viable method of nerfing it, and I explain the logic behind why that method will accomplish the stated goal without causing undo harm to other situations.

I challenge you to find any examples contrary to what I’ve just stated. Go on, I’ll wait.

I am not saying you randomly call for nerfs. I am sure that the ones you have asked for were all well thought out and probably justified…for pvp. They were not required or necessary for pve. Of course pvp needs class balancing, but pve doesn’t. Every class needs to feel powerful in pve. Mesmer doesn’t. Yeah, the mechanics are fun but the damage sucks, in pve.

And I’m saying you’re totally and completely wrong. I challenge you to find a single instance of when I advocated a nerf that would hurt PvE without discussing compensatory changes to fix that problem.

It’s easy to spout unsubstantiated insults about things, but you’re going to have a very difficult time putting your money where your mouth is on this one.

Fay.2357:

And I’m saying you’re totally and completely wrong. I challenge you to find a single instance of when I advocated a nerf that would hurt PvE without discussing compensatory changes to fix that problem.

It’s easy to spout unsubstantiated insults about things, but you’re going to have a very difficult time putting your money where your mouth is on this one.

You may have discussed compensatory changes. Tell me, did it work? I see a weak mesmer in pve, much weaker than it was 3 years ago. I see the results from people (not necessarily you) who thought mesmer was OP or that certain builds were cheesy (you remember about the infamous PU build, right?).

I have never said that you were a bad person or stupid or anything like that. I am saying when people ask for nerfs, even with compensatory discussions, it rarely makes anybody happy. Maybe if Anet had followed your suggestions exactly, we would all be happy, but when has Anet ever done that?

When nerfs are asked for, no matter how you try to make it palatable to everyone, it sets a tone. A tone in which apparently Anet only sees the “nerfs” and not the compensatory changes. And not everyone has been as conscientious as you. In fact, most aren’t. Most people will only talk about the nerfs they want and that is it.

redcomyn.4651:

You may have discussed compensatory changes. Tell me, did it work? I see a weak mesmer in pve, much weaker than it was 3 years ago.

You’re so wrong here it’s laughable. Mesmer is required for optimal raid comps, no questions asked. It’s wanted in all fractal runs, and nobody cares about dungeons. 3 years ago we were brought in dungeons sometimes just because nobody else figured out how to do reflects yet.

redcomyn.4651:

I see the results from people (not necessarily you) who thought mesmer was OP or that certain builds were cheesy (you remember about the infamous PU build, right?).

So if you’re trying to make the argument that mesmer is worse in PvE now than it was before HoT, you can just go ahead and stop right now, because you’re wrong. Additionally the nerfs that targeted PU didn’t touch PvE at all. Mesmer has always sucked in PvE, and PvP nerfs have only exacerbated that issue; they didn’t create it.

redcomyn.4651:

I have never said that you were a bad person or stupid or anything like that. I am saying when people ask for nerfs, even with compensatory discussions, it rarely makes anybody happy. Maybe if Anet had followed your suggestions exactly, we would all be happy, but when has Anet ever done that?

You’re changing your tune an awful lot. First you said that I advocated nerfs with zero regards to PvE, now you’re saying that it’s Anet’s fault.

Yes, Anet is going to Anet, but you’re playing this game so you’ve got to live with that.

redcomyn.4651:

When nerfs are asked for, no matter how you try to make it palatable to everyone, it sets a tone. A tone in which apparently Anet only sees the “nerfs” and not the compensatory changes. And not everyone has been as conscientious as you. In fact, most aren’t. Most people will only talk about the nerfs they want and that is it.

I’m not going to stop making intelligent and well-informed suggestions just because imbeciles like a certain friendly thief we all know come to the mesmer forum and complain constantly. If I see something is broken, I’m going to call it as it is, and I’m going to make suggestions that will fix it in a reasonable manner. The alternative is staying silent and hoping that when Anet nerfs it, and they will eventually nerf it, that they nerf it in a good way without any intelligent feedback. They don’t always take intelligent feedback, but they do sometimes, and so that’s worth the shot.

i say for every nerf thread we need 3 buff thread to balance it for the dev

so buff moa
buff mtd
buff mistrust more
buff dmg from GS and sword
buff portal to indicate the the distance
just buff already

messiah.1908:

i say for every nerf thread we need 3 buff thread to balance it for the dev

so buff moa
buff mtd
buff mistrust more
buff dmg from GS and sword
buff portal to indicate the the distance
just buff already

pls don’t buff mtd

Fay.2357:

You’re so wrong here it’s laughable. Mesmer is required for optimal raid comps, no questions asked. It’s wanted in all fractal runs, and nobody cares about dungeons. 3 years ago we were brought in dungeons sometimes just because nobody else figured out how to do reflects yet.

I have no interest in raids or dungeons. I am only interested in OW PVE, so this is irrelevant.

So if you’re trying to make the argument that mesmer is worse in PvE now than it was before HoT, you can just go ahead and stop right now, because you’re wrong. Additionally the nerfs that targeted PU didn’t touch PvE at all. Mesmer has always sucked in PvE, and PvP nerfs have only exacerbated that issue; they didn’t create it.

Here you admit that mesmer is weak and that pvp nerfs have made it worse.

You’re changing your tune an awful lot. First you said that I advocated nerfs with zero regards to PvE, now you’re saying that it’s Anet’s fault.
Yes, Anet is going to Anet, but you’re playing this game so you’ve got to live with that.

No, I never said that you had zero regard to pve, I only said that you advocated for nerfs for the purpose of pvp balancing. You have admitted to that in this discussion.

I’m not going to stop making intelligent and well-informed suggestions just because imbeciles like a certain friendly thief we all know come to the mesmer forum and complain constantly. If I see something is broken, I’m going to call it as it is, and I’m going to make suggestions that will fix it in a reasonable manner. The alternative is staying silent and hoping that when Anet nerfs it, and they will eventually nerf it, that they nerf it in a good way without any intelligent feedback. They don’t always take intelligent feedback, but they do sometimes, and so that’s worth the shot.

Stealth was nerfed, conditions on illusion death was removed entirely, the extra bounce for GS and Staff was removed. These all have weakened the mesmer. None of these changes were compensated for.

redcomyn.4651:

I have no interest in raids or dungeons. I am only interested in OW PVE, so this is irrelevant.

First, allow me a quick chuckle. Second, mesmer is fine in OW PvE. Everything is fine in OW PvE.

redcomyn.4651:

Here you admit that mesmer is weak and that pvp nerfs have made it worse.

Pre-hot, yes. HoT changed everything with respect to mesmer capability in PvE.

redcomyn.4651:

No, I never said that you had zero regard to pve, I only said that you advocated for nerfs for the purpose of pvp balancing. You have admitted to that in this discussion.

The cool thing about forums is that you can quote people.

redcomyn.4651:

I am not saying you randomly call for nerfs. I am sure that the ones you have asked for were all well thought out and probably justified…for pvp. They were not required or necessary for pve.

Right here you say that I’ve advocated for nerfs without making them well thought out or justified with respect for PvE. You’re wrong of course, but you did say it, so don’t try to deny that.

On top of that, you’re still just pulling random insults out of thin air. I’ve yet to see a single cogent response from you that actually made your point. I challenge you to find a time when I advocated for a PvP nerf that also reduced PvE capabilities.

redcomyn.4651:

Stealth was nerfed,

Nobody cares about stealth in PvE.

redcomyn.4651:

conditions on illusion death was removed entirely,

REALLY nobody cares about this in PvE.

redcomyn.4651:

the extra bounce for GS and Staff was removed.

First, you’re wrong. Staff didn’t have the bounce removed. Second, REALLY nobody cares about the GS bounce in PvE.

redcomyn.4651:

These all have weakened the mesmer. None of these changes were compensated for.

Uh…no. You’re just pointing at random nerfs (and not even being right about them) and claiming that they hurt mesmer in PvE, but you’re totally wrong. On top of that, you’re claiming they hurt open world PvE, where literally all you need is a gs and the 1 key.

Fay.2357:

redcomyn.4651:

I am not saying you randomly call for nerfs. I am sure that the ones you have asked for were all well thought out and probably justified…for pvp. They were not required or necessary for pve.

Right here you say that I’ve advocated for nerfs without making them well thought out or justified with respect for PvE. You’re wrong of course, but you did say it, so don’t try to deny that.

Now I know you are screwing with me. I said, right there in the quote you gave of mine, that you did give well thought out requests for nerfs. How can you possibly say otherwise. It is right there in black and white.

On top of that, you’re still just pulling random insults out of thin air. I’ve yet to see a single cogent response from you that actually made your point. I challenge you to find a time when I advocated for a PvP nerf that also reduced PvE capabilities.

I never once insulted you. You have, for some reason, have chosen to be offended, god knows why. I haven’t gone back through the history of this forum to find every comment you have ever made, and I’m not going to. That wasn’t even the point of the rather mild comment that I made that you have blown totally out of proportion.

redcomyn.4651:

Stealth was nerfed,

Nobody cares about stealth in PvE.

Well, true. I never particularly used stealth so that had minimal effect on me. Still, the principle of it is there.

redcomyn.4651:

conditions on illusion death was removed entirely,

REALLY nobody cares about this in PvE.

I certainly cared. I used it extensively. It helped a great deal to keep me out of melee range, at least the crippling part.

redcomyn.4651:

the extra bounce for GS and Staff was removed.

First, you’re wrong. Staff didn’t have the bounce removed. Second, REALLY nobody cares about the GS bounce in PvE.

• Well then I was mistaken about the staff. However, I do care about it on the GS. It did help. Whether you think it was a significant help or not, it still weakened the mesmer.*

redcomyn.4651:

These all have weakened the mesmer. None of these changes were compensated for.

Uh…no. You’re just pointing at random nerfs (and not even being right about them) and claiming that they hurt mesmer in PvE, but you’re totally wrong. On top of that, you’re claiming they hurt open world PvE, where literally all you need is a gs and the 1 key.

And now you are exaggerating. I can’t possibly succeed, especially in the HoTlands, using just the GS autoattack. I would die almost immediately. I also don’t remember off the top of my head all of the nerfs that have happened. Way too many of them. I remembered the stealth one because so many people made such a big deal about it. And the 2nd two were big deals for me. You are just plain wrong about nobody caring about the latter two because I remember the conversations complaining about those changes. You may not have cared about them because you are some kind of super mesmer, but us average folks sure did.

@Nerfing: If you’re willing to make baseless accusations about poorly considered nerf requests, you should be willing to back those accusations up. You started off by accusing me of making thoughtless suggestions that harmed PvE, hence my taking offense to that. If the point of your comment was to try and show how PvP changes can negatively impact PvE, I’d recommend you aiming at someone that has actual recommended changes that were harmful to PvE instead of randomly taking a poorly aimed potshot at me.

@PvE: Let me be blunt. If you needed crippling dissipation to keep your distance from mobs, you’re playing really poorly, and it doesn’t take a ‘super Mesmer’ to get above that level of play. Additionally, everything and their mother has breakbars in HoT content, so you’d be in trouble anyway even if you had that trait.

The GS bounce has no impact on PvE performance. This change mattered in PvP because it reduced the amount of burst damage you could do (at point blank range). In PvE, if you’re using greatsword you should be at high range, meaning you won’t get the bounces anyway. If you’re at close range…you shouldn’t be using greatsword. Swap to sword and be done with it.

Ultimately, if you were even using the dissipations at all in PvE, you were using a really bad build. That could very well be the source of a lot of your difficulties. Instead of bemoaning mechanics that have been removed, why not try and find out what the stronger builds use instead, as using those will make your experience far smoother than relying on a bad trait would.

@GS1: If you’re doing HoT world events with a group, then you could absolutely just camp GS1 and be fine. You wouldn’t be contributing a whole lot, but you’d tag most everything and you wouldn’t be dying. Granted, I wouldn’t actually recommend doing that as it’s nice to have everyone contributing in groups, but the point is that open world content is easy enough that there’s no barrier to entry that makes Mesmer bad at it. We’ve got decent aoe with gs, wells, and shield, and we’ve got 25% passive with chrono. What more do you want?

Ok, as another point, I want to try and make something clear. There seems to be this big misconception that PvP changes are constantly impacting PvE and making mesmers worse.

This is false.

You may not remember all the nerfs, redcomyn, but I do. I also understand the base reasons behind Mesmer traditionally being poor in PvE.

First, let’s look at what makes something good in PvE. The first thing is damage, the second thing is utility. Let’s start with utility.

Utility

Mesmers have always had great utility between reflects, stability, condie cleanse, portal, stealth, and mob control. Post-HoT we now also have quickness and alacrity (though those sorta fit with damage too).

There has never been a PvP change that negatively impacted Mesmer PvE utility in a meaningful way.

Our condie cleanse is still great, stability share is still strong, portal is portal, and we’ve got plenty of stealth. Reflects are a lot worse, but that’s due to Anet specifically making PvE projectiles unblockable to avoid trivializing content, it has nothing to do with PvP.

Damage

Mesmer damage has actually always been spreadsheet competitive, but awful in reality. If you could miraculously keep up 3 phantasms on bosses the entire fight, your dps was great. This didn’t happen of course, and so the dps was bad.

This has nothing to do with PvP changes. Not one single time was Mesmer damage ever lowered in PvP in a way that affected PvE.

This can largely be attributed to the PvE/PvP preference split of phantasms vs shatters, but the point remains. In fact, most changes were on-paper buffs to Mesmer damage that failed to have an impact in PvE because they addressed the wrong problems. Mesmer has poor damage in PvE because of the inherent mechanics behind phantasms/illusions and how they’re locked to targets and destroyed, and it has nothing to do with PvP.

But Pyro, what about the alacrity nerf?

The alacrity nerf was first and foremost a PvE change. Yeah, mesmers were overtuned in PvP too, but that got nerfed in different ways (though the stack up between the PvE alacrity nerf and the other nerfs causing overnerfing in PvP is a real problem, but totally off-topic). Mesmer alacrity got nerfed because it was deemed as having too powerful of an effect on raids, along with the squad-hopping you could do. It has nothing to do with PvP.

In the entire existence of GW2, there have been very few nerfs to Mesmer that actually impacted us negatively in PvE, and these few were odd things like the change to the location of the old mantra traits that to this day nobody knows why it happened. The problems Mesmer has in PvE can be attributed to the underlying mechanics of the Mesmer class, and the difficulty in making those mechanics work smoothly in PvE, not collateral damage from PvP nerfs. If anyone wants to dispute this and bring up nerfs I have forgotten, feel free…but I’m not coming up with anything that goes against what I’ve just said.

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

No one is forcing you to use F5. If you don’t wanna be a one trick pony, go play mesmer without using the chrono trait line. I mean…. thats what was added in HoT. EVERY class got a special traitline and skill. they wont remove it because it was intended to be.
There’s literally dozens of neat things you can do using the F5 skill so if you dont like it, or understand how to use it properly, dont play it. k thanks bye

Novamatrix.2569:

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

No one is forcing you to use F5. If you don’t wanna be a one trick pony, go play mesmer without using the chrono trait line. I mean…. thats what was added in HoT. EVERY class got a special traitline and skill. they wont remove it because it was intended to be.
There’s literally dozens of neat things you can do using the F5 skill so if you dont like it, or understand how to use it properly, dont play it. k thanks bye

This is a very nice suggestion, but it won’t prevent a-net from balancing all our elites around F5. With all the shouts for nerf to Moa, and given the history of a-net, I would not be surprised if Moa duration get reduced. And this would be an uncalled nerf to core mesmer while the real problem is F5.

Mesmers in pve are fine, as pyro said everything is fine in pve. Except for the whole phantasms nonsense, mesmers in PvP are fine. What this is, is a learn to play issue. People freak out when they see a mesmer for some reason then come to forums and complain how “wah I was turned into a bird that can dodge the full duration”. I’ve fought at least 4 people who whispered me afterwards insulting me for using gravity well and signet of domination active twice. stunbreak it if anything, Mesmers’ ability to manipulate the battlefield should be improved further. Like arcane thievery or mirror images improvements.

Silverkey.2078:

This is a very nice suggestion, but it won’t prevent a-net from balancing all our elites around F5. With all the shouts for nerf to Moa, and given the history of a-net, I would not be surprised if Moa duration get reduced. And this would be an uncalled nerf to core mesmer while the real problem is F5.

Moa can be blocked & evaded. Moa lasts 10 seconds, which in a 1v1 situation is hardly enough time to down them. With all the Tempest & Reaper & Scrapper tanks in pvp, Moa is a necessity to actually kill them without having 3 or more of the team members tied up to kill a single person defending a point. CS just gives another try in case moa is evaded or blocked. BTW moa has a 3 minute cool down. WHICH IS insert appropriate curse word here LONG COMPARED TO OTHER ELITE SKILLS OF OTHER PROFESSIONS. HOW ABOUT STOP ASKING TO BE NERFED.

It’s actually quite humbling when someone who mains a class is able to discuss when they think something could do with a nerf. Some people are more interested in the health of the game than the relative ease of which they can become successful with their chosen main.

Fay.2357:

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

Ah yes, the classic ‘lets eviscerate PvE mesmers because the PvP folks are getting antsy’ suggestion. I’ll pass on that one.

Stuff like this is the main reason that the devs (in truth) rarely pay attention to feedback from players. The balance devs aren’t experienced enough with the game to be able to separate the unbiased feedback from the biased feedback, but they are intelligent enough to realize that 99% of feedback given is myopically focused on one aspect of the game with zero consideration for anything else. Therefor, they make the judgement call that operating with zero feedback is better than operating with potentially awful feedback.

If continuum split is the only reason that Chronomancers are useful in PvE, maybe they’re too much of a one trick pony and need that power redistributed to other areas too.

Eponet.4829:

Fay.2357:

apharma.3741:

Pretty much what Pyro and Silverkey said and I especially agree with Silverkey about F5.

I’d much rather see them remove F5 though as reducing an elite to <90s CD by picking Chrono not just feels required but it adds to the one trick pony.

Ah yes, the classic ‘lets eviscerate PvE mesmers because the PvP folks are getting antsy’ suggestion. I’ll pass on that one.

Stuff like this is the main reason that the devs (in truth) rarely pay attention to feedback from players. The balance devs aren’t experienced enough with the game to be able to separate the unbiased feedback from the biased feedback, but they are intelligent enough to realize that 99% of feedback given is myopically focused on one aspect of the game with zero consideration for anything else. Therefor, they make the judgement call that operating with zero feedback is better than operating with potentially awful feedback.

If continuum split is the only reason that Chronomancers are useful in PvE, maybe they’re too much of a one trick pony and need that power redistributed to other areas too.

Exactly. I always try to take all game modes into consideration when I suggest something. So yes, I think CS is a terrible and unbalanceable idea, and that it should be reworked. At the same time, I think mesmer sustained damage needs to be buffed because it won’t break anything (power shatter mesmer is already dead anyway) but help in many areas. And with an increase sustained damage, a decrease in our utilities in PvE (currently boosted by CS) won’t eviscerate anything (outside of enemy mobs).

I really, really hope they’re not going to 25/90 anything. They never give any compensation, and removing portal would hurt our sPvP usefulness pretty badly.

Fay.2357:

First, allow me a quick chuckle. Second, mesmer is fine in OW PvE. Everything is fine in OW PvE.

That’s not a sensible argument though. Just that something is not broken doesn’t mean it cannot use improvements.

Because if we go down that route, sPvP balance is pointless because so little of the playerbase plays it. Why spend time improving something so few ever see, instead of improving what a lot of players see?

Mind you, not really my opinion (well for sPvP specifically it actually is, I’d axe it because it feels pointless and just uses up megahurtz on the servers) but to show the problem with that line of thought.

Balance should happen just as much in a vacuum as in comparison. There has to be a power baseline, usually given through PvE. And against that baseline things have to be balanced. Comparative balance can then be achieved by fine-tuning the result, although the balance between the two forms of balancing is again really problematic, see WoW.

Carighan.6758:

Because if we go down that route, sPvP balance is pointless because so little of the playerbase plays it. Why spend time improving something so few ever see, instead of improving what a lot of players see?

I mean…

I’m 100% on board with that logic.

Fay.2357:

Carighan.6758:

Because if we go down that route, sPvP balance is pointless because so little of the playerbase plays it. Why spend time improving something so few ever see, instead of improving what a lot of players see?

I mean…

I’m 100% on board with that logic.

You know, I try, really really hard, to be considerate to people who play gametypes I can’t stand, and that’s not helping lol

I wrote a large rant which I then decided not to post so this may seem like a non sequitur but it made sense in context.

Paying customers having fun in open world/story and the related achievments are more important then kittening esports.

Delete PvP from the game, start actually buiffing and reworking skills and builds that PvP whine has destroyed. Building upon what the Queens Gauntlet was should be the main focus of creating content going forward. Actually create some gameplay with complexity in this game.

Levetty.1279:

I wrote a large rant which I then decided not to post so this may seem like a non sequitur but it made sense in context.

Paying customers having fun in open world/story and the related achievments are more important then kittening esports.

Delete PvP from the game, start actually buiffing and reworking skills and builds that PvP whine has destroyed. Building upon what the Queens Gauntlet was should be the main focus of creating content going forward. Actually create some gameplay with complexity in this game.

As a PvP player: what is your problem? Your willingness to ruin other people’s fun is disgusting. Just because you don’t like what PvP balance has done to PvE doesn’t mean that it should be taken out of the game entirely. The ideal would be PvE/PvP skill splits (as in GW1), but I guess that’s too much work for them now. Either way, the answer isn’t to delete a sizeable chunk of the game in order to force everyone else to play your preferred game mode.

Unholy Pillager.3791:

As a PvP player: what is your problem? Your willingness to ruin other people’s fun is disgusting.

I think I can sum it up: Dev time spent on a minority game mode. Instead of investing the same manhours into what is actually being played.

I don’t begrudge dev time working on PvP stuff because Anet has different teams that work on different things. Levetty’s extreme view is simply indicative of a basic lack of understanding of how game development works at all.

Balance, however, is a different issue because it inherently links the game modes due to Anet’s refusal to split skills. PvP balance decisions regularly make life difficult for wvw and pve players, and this is ridiculous.

If Anet balanced purely for wholistic PvE and WvW experience, then PvP would be an unbalanced mess. Luckily, PvP is already an unbalanced mess, so nobody would notice a difference.

I mean, you’re right, I’m no expert on how game development works but you are agreeing with my point.

Levetty.1279:

I mean, you’re right, I’m no expert on how game development works but you are agreeing with my point.

Your point is that they should delete PvP, and that’s just asinine. I think they shouldn’t balance with PvP as a focus, but your opinion is absurd.

Fay.2357:

Levetty.1279:

I mean, you’re right, I’m no expert on how game development works but you are agreeing with my point.

Your point is that they should delete PvP, and that’s just asinine. I think they shouldn’t balance with PvP as a focus, but your opinion is absurd.

How about now, in this post legendary development world?

Levetty.1279:

Fay.2357:

Levetty.1279:

I mean, you’re right, I’m no expert on how game development works but you are agreeing with my point.

Your point is that they should delete PvP, and that’s just asinine. I think they shouldn’t balance with PvP as a focus, but your opinion is absurd.

How about now, in this post legendary development world?

What do legendaries have to do with any of this?

The legendary thing is just a load of PR bluster. If they actually wanted to deliver on their promises, they could easily do it. They’ve got enough people to allocate resources to legendaries (70 working on the next expansion already, who knows how many pumping out a full set of BL skins every month and a half…), they just don’t care. They’re counting on the hope that all the good little customers will just forget that they’ve broken half the promises they’ve ever made and will blindly buy the next expansion and all the false promises that come with it.

I’m hoping the next expansion is an abject failure, it’s what they deserve. It also has nothing to do with PvP development.