Guild Wars 2

First, check my other post about mesmer auto-attack DPS, especially compared with how other classes fair for their auto-attack DPS. Quick summary for those who don’t want to read that (long) post: most of our DPS comes from using skills other than skill/1 auto-attack. Most of the DPS for other classes comes from using skill/1 auto-attacks.

While it’s true that blindness blocking a skill is roughly the same for other classes, it’s much less important to them than it is to a mesmer. We loose about 75% of our DPS while blind. Other classes loose at most one auto-attack, or maybe at most 5% of their DPS.

The way blindness is not removed when it forces a summon skill to become a no-op makes it a severe detriment to a mesmer compared to the trivial annoyance it is to other classes. Blindness is always removed on skill use for other classes.

Going back to having blindness not effect summoning at all is actually more balanced in net result than the current behavior (comparing a 75% damage reduction to a 5%). However, the ideal case is obviously having all classes similarly negatively impacted by blindness by roughly the same factor.

So, what I’d do instead is to simply transfer the blindness from the mesmer to the illusion when it’s summoned. Net effect: illusion misses it’s next hit (just one if it’s a multi-hit illusion). Mesmer’s DPS is roughly reduced by the same factor as if another class missed an auto-attack and the blind is removed at the same pace as for other classes, too.

‘Course, the other thing that could be done is to rebalance every other class so as to make their auto-attacks at most 25% of their DPS and then only remove blindness when any class auto-attacks. That’s a LOT of work, but I think the end result would be that other classes become much more fun and active to play.

You could also rebalance mesmer so it gets most of it’s DPS from auto-attack, like other classes. Ugh. Please please please don’t do that. Using skills is fun. Watching the character auto-attack is not.

I don’t know what classes you are really talking about. It’s true many classes get more dps from their 1 attack than mesmers but few get most of their dps from it. Just thieves and rangers mostly.

Necro’s non/1 skills are pure DPS boost, but then blind doesn’t effect them at all — they’re either multi-hit channeled, marks (traps), or AE. I haven’t actually tested Guardian for it’s skill/1 versus other skills to see what happens there with DPS%, but I can say that most of Guardians non/1 skills also are not effected by blind — at least not much. They’re like necro’s mostly: AE or multi-hit and aren’t really seriously inconvenienced by blind.

I haven’t played ele, eng, or war enough myself to comment directly on those. I seriously doubt they’re even close to as adversely effected by blind as a mesmer. The current blind will completely shut down our DPS until the blind runs out or is condition removed. Not only that, some classes can essentially reapply blind at will (eg. thief), which due to the mesmer DPS mechanic, essentially breaks all mesmer builds except for the shattercat build.

Having only a single viable build is extremely bad for balance. The ideal case is for there to be a great big argument over which build is best. Not a sad shrug followed by “well, it’s the only one that works.”

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

A good thief simply keeps up the blind pressure. New blinds will land between removing a blind via an auto and using a phantasm. And, uh, why should a mesmer be the only class that’s in a near-total shutdown due to a condition that is basically only a minor annoyance to other classes?

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

Okuza.5210:

A good thief simply keeps up the blind pressure. New blinds will land between removing a blind via an auto and using a phantasm. And, uh, why should a mesmer be the only class that’s in a near-total shutdown due to a condition that is basically only a minor annoyance to other classes?

I agree with Okuza. Blind should behave the same to all classes.

If they changed the blind/block/dodge mechanics against all classes to where their attacks didn’t even occur regardless of how many hits the attack does, plus some of their utilities can be prevented with a block/blind/dodge, AND one of each of their 5 weapons skill sets only has a 50/50 chance of not removing the blind at all when that happens, then I would be ok with it if they left it as is.

Seems pretty crazy huh?

But we’re not done yet… it gets even worse for us as our illusions are what our class f-keys are based off of… so something would need to be done to the other classes f-skills to balance that as well.

Or they could just fix mesmer.

Blind should obviously fall off when you use an action it prevents. That goes without saying.

It’s far more than just blindness not falling off that’s the problem…

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

you must be some of those top qualify points player, if you dont im sure if i fight you you will miss lot of non atack weapons for blind….

maybe because the position of conditions/boons icons on this game is very bad? have 0 costumization so if you want check conditions you need to look down and be a split of second without see the real fight where you can miss a dodge.

that isnt even the point, no other class have so much penalization with blindess compared mesmer, no one can denie this.

a necro blinded still can put marks on ground, still can cast Life Transfer for example. warrior can still cast HB when are blinded.

so why phantasm duelist that work pretty much work like any channeling skill if mesmer are blind cant even land one hit??

if arenanet want make phanstam be like any other weapon class skill than make it work that way, for example make a phantasm duelist only miss first hit like any other channel skill, cast blind on channeling is useless so for mesmer should be too not miss the all skill because that only happen with mesmer.
if someone say mesmer phantasm work like any other class weapon atack i can only think they never play other classes

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

A solution to a broken mechanic doesn’t mean the mechanic is not broken anymore.

the problem about blindness is that it ruins the base of our class, which is: create illusions. It would be the same as blindness fails the elementalist to change elements (fire, water, air and earth), or fail the guardian from using their healing/protection skill.

I think it would be fair if the blindness pass through to the created illusion.

At first reading your post I though “QQ more dude”, but thinking about it more I completely agree. Either the blindness needs to pass to the summoned illusions and they miss the first sttack OR blind needs to start blocking entire skills, meaning when a warrior uses 100b when blinded it makes him miss the entire time.

I personally believe the best way to fix this mess is to have phantasms behave as a summons; attacking what the Mesmer is attacking. Because my Guardian can still summon his Spirit Weapons just fine if blinded or use any of his other creation skills. Same with a Necro summoning in his pets, or a Ranger swapping out an animal companion or a spirit/trap.

Phantasms are not a physical attack that needs to connect, they are a summons and should be treated as such.

Besides, players can still dodge to avoid the attacks of phantasms. But they should not be able to prevent the initial creation and effectively shut down the Mesmer at the core.

You sir are complaining about Mesmers being blind ? and your complaining about a lack of DPS ???? check your build…. learn your class…. That is all….

CharlieWaffles.1509:

You sir are complaining about Mesmers being blind ? and your complaining about a lack of DPS ???? check your build…. learn your class…. That is all….

His complaint about blind is legitimate. The mechanic is not working as intended on mesmers right now

So other people are noticing how much bull kitten these new changes are. It really screws mesmers.

I don’t play a mesmer, so correct me if I’m wrong here. What I understand of this is blind isn’t breaking on illusion/clone/phantasm creation abilities. While I agree that it should break on said abilities, the suggestion to transfer blind to an illusion sounds incredibly overpowered. Blind would become a nonfactor on mesmers, not even worth being used. I also don’t agree that every other professions’ dealings with blind are trivial. A thief could easily expend massive initiative on blind. That would be a devastating loss of not only dps, but also survivability. You could say “pay attention to debuffs,” but that’s essentially the same situation I see here. Blind should break on any ability that is negated, but I wouldn’t go further than that. As to the channeling comparison, maybe channels should be brought in line with mesmer’s current state. The game isn’t very cc oriented as is, and removing the effectiveness of current cc’s sounds like trivialization of mechanics to me.

WillOfIron.5273:

At first reading your post I though “QQ more dude”, but thinking about it more I completely agree. Either the blindness needs to pass to the summoned illusions and they miss the first sttack OR blind needs to start blocking entire skills, meaning when a warrior uses 100b when blinded it makes him miss the entire time.

LOL. The first time I read a blind complaint, I thought the same thing. “Whine on dude.” Then I did some WvW. Then I did some testing. Then I realized this kitten kittens kittening kitten kitten blind is all kittened up.

I know there are devs playing warrior. What the game needs are at least 2-3 people with direct input on patches before they go live all passionately playing the patched class in DIFFERENT ways and really thinking about the changes before they go live. There’s so much about the last patch that obviously got very little thought or testing — not just mesmers, but thief in particular got some serious cascading internal balance issues as a result of one ill-planned change.

Gotta be strong opinionated people, too. They all have to be willing and able to stand in front of the change author (perhaps that’s their boss) and say “eat a kitten dude, this change doesn’t work.”

Okuza.5210:

A good thief simply keeps up the blind pressure. New blinds will land between removing a blind via an auto and using a phantasm. And, uh, why should a mesmer be the only class that’s in a near-total shutdown due to a condition that is basically only a minor annoyance to other classes?

Why not?

Because as the title says it’s unbalanced…

ddoi.9264:

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

A solution to a broken mechanic doesn’t mean the mechanic is not broken anymore.

U guys think other classes dont have problem with blind ? we all suffer from it ,considering how long cd some skill of the other classes has ,and we dont have 5 guys who look like us running around on the field and confusing every1 do we? not to mention all the other cool stuff u have. Blind messes up every1 combo not only mesmers

Mefistofell.8619:

U guys think other classes dont have problem with blind ? we all suffer from it ,considering how long cd some skill of the other classes has ,and we dont have 5 guys who look like us running around on the field and confusing every1 do we? not to mention all the other cool stuff u have. Blind messes up every1 combo not only mesmers

You can look at illusions in two ways, and in both cases it’s unfair. They are either attacks (which I disagree with, but the dev’s stated that they considered them attacks when they made this change) or summons (because that they are created and then attack).

If you consider illusions attacks… Blind/block/dodges behave differently for every other class vs mesmer. We have multi hitting/aoe attacks that don’t even occur due to a blind and arn’t even removing the blind after. Other classes attacks just lose 1 hit.

If you consider them summons… other classes can also summon without worrying about a bind/block/dodge… such as the guardian weapon summons… with mesmer our summon skills won’t occur at all.

We even have utility skills that take the form of a phantom and are negated by a block/dodge/blind (ex. idefender)

This further hurts mesmers because our class f-keys are dependant upon our illusion summons.

It’s the fact that ONLY mesmer has this happen which is why it needs to be changed either for mesmers or all other classes need to fall in line with these new rules. We’re not against balance changes, but the basic gameplay rules for all classes should be the same.

Mefistofell.8619:

ddoi.9264:

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

A solution to a broken mechanic doesn’t mean the mechanic is not broken anymore.

U guys think other classes dont have problem with blind ? we all suffer from it ,considering how long cd some skill of the other classes has ,and we dont have 5 guys who look like us running around on the field and confusing every1 do we? not to mention all the other cool stuff u have. Blind messes up every1 combo not only mesmers

1. Learn to spell. Don’t expect people to take your opinions seriously if you can’t be bothered to express them properly.

2. 3 guys max, and they don’t look or act like the real one. Especially phantasms. If you have trouble finding the real mesmer you simply need more experience. If you actually played a mesmer you would know how ridiculously easy it is to find the real one. Furthermore using a class-defining mechanic to justify discriminations against it is a poor argument.

3. Read. Start with the opening post. Try Aberrant’s post above too. It explains quite well how blind is severely more penalising on mesmers, a point you’ve completely missed.

4. I agree mesmers have cool stuff. =)

Ross Biddle.2367:

Okuza.5210:

A good thief simply keeps up the blind pressure. New blinds will land between removing a blind via an auto and using a phantasm. And, uh, why should a mesmer be the only class that’s in a near-total shutdown due to a condition that is basically only a minor annoyance to other classes?

Why not?

Balance? Fairness? Equality among classes? For the kittens?

I’m sure some tweaks are in order, but I’ve been having no trouble using #1 when I see black borders (Not judging, just my experience)

Shaddian.2903:

I don’t play a mesmer, so correct me if I’m wrong here. What I understand of this is blind isn’t breaking on illusion/clone/phantasm creation abilities. While I agree that it should break on said abilities, the suggestion to transfer blind to an illusion sounds incredibly overpowered. Blind would become a nonfactor on mesmers, not even worth being used.

Not exactly.

Remember that phantasms are basically a mesmer’s “attack” skills. Their spam attacks are pitifully weak, most of the damage is from phantasms, and from their class mechanic.

If you throw blind on a warrior and he pops hundred blades, his first attack misses, but subsequent swings all land and he gains adrenaline to convert into a special attack or to power his relevant traits. If you blind an engineer as he throws his grenade cluster, I’m not sure any of the grenades would actually miss due to it being an AoE effect, and he’s still free to use his toolbelt skills.

Contrast this to a mesmer, if a mesmer is blinded and uses iZerker, or iWarden (multi- hit attacks) not only does the first attack not land; the illusion isn’t even spawned. Blind negates the next dozen hits in the case of iZerker, AND, to add insult to injury since no illusion was spawned, we can’t follow up with a class ability because we lost our resource point.

So yes, transferring the blind to the illusion and causing it’s first hit to fail is the correct analogue.

Illusions are also the class based resource that Mesmers have. Many of our traits, and our Profession abilities depend on Illusions.

Perhaps a balance change if blinded Mesmers are to remain, would be that Thieves don’t regen Initiative while Blinded, nor Necromancers gather Lifeforce, Elementalists’ Attunement cooldowns should freeze, and the like.

How does this sound for balancing out non-Mesmers with how Mesmer is effected by Blind? Yes it sounds ridiculous, exactly how ridiculous we Mesmers thought this change was when it happened to us

If you want equality among classes, then you’ll have to give up more than what you’re bargaining for. You just want equality where it’s convenient for you.

For example, NO OTHER CLASS has the utility that a mesmer has. For example, Portal. What other class can transport an entire zerg in a second? Right, none. That’s imbalanced between classes. What other class has CDR on a 5 point minor trait, which affects not only a majority of weapon skills but utility skills as well? Again, none.

I could go on, too. Acting like all classes need to be equal while you sit around playing the class that has more things no other class has is just asinine. Either change your argument or give it up.

Guys stop complaining really, we got portal, what could you possibly dream of when we have portal? Oh kitten other side have it too. facepalm
Oh and now portal is on cd, nevermind I’ll just do a /dance in front walls during siege or maybe try to catch arrows with my head to feel useful during the next 90s.

Hey guys, our auto-attacks do almost no damage, let’s thank god we have a mandatory 5 points trait to have our class not so broken as we rely so heavily on illusions. Oh too bad, you were blinded or with a buggy LOS, your skill went on CD with nothing to shatter or protect yourself. Wow, happily we have a few seconds off cd on our illusions skills for 5 points. Now I can have that illusion summoned, great…oh wait, it was destroyed before doing anything because of a mosquito bite. Thanks A-net, it’s amazing, what could we dream of, really, you guys should just stop complaining.

/sarcasm off

Shinigami.5932:

I’m sure some tweaks are in order, but I’ve been having no trouble using #1 when I see black borders (Not judging, just my experience)

The problem isn’t a random blind getting thrown out now and then. The problem is that a smart player who knows about the change can totally shut down a mesmer now via blinds, dodges etc.

Not to mention that blind doesn’t even fall off on a failed clone summon some of the time, which obviously makes zero sense.

Equality in how classes are treated, not as in what range of skills they have.
See, blind is a condition that encompasses all classes.
Portal is a skill that is built into this specific class.

You honestly can’t tell the difference?

EVERY class has a few unique skills and traits other classes wish they had. It’s what makes them unique and fun to play, and a total headache to balance. Or are you saying because mesmers have utilities like Portals they deserve to be penalised more from a condition that otherwise affects every other class in the same fashion? How in the world are these two connected? Is that your logic you are basing your request for people to “give it up”? (Amusing you added this last line to your post; in this class forum you’ve been jumping from thread to thread making statements with logic like this which people pointed out the faults of repeatedly, which you responded with-surprise, silence and refusal to support your argument.)

A blind on a guardian works the same on a warrior. Or elementalist. Necro. Ranger. Engineer. Thief. Next outgoing (non-ground targeting, I believe)attack misses, and removed straight after.

But nope, not mesmers. Because they have a 5 point CDR minor trait and a few skills that may or may not be currently slotted in the skill slots, their blinds should cancel out a summon and any utilities attached to it altogether, deny the class resource, disable class mechanic skills(F1-4) and should linger even after their outgoing “attack” fails.

Last I’ve seen, the description on blind doesn’t say it is class-specific.

Imbalance in skills classes have has NOTHING to do with imbalance in how a class-wide game mechanic works on them. They should be adjusted separately.

ddoi.9264:

Equality in how classes are treated, not as in what range of skills they have.
See, blind is a condition that encompasses all classes.
Portal is a skill that is built into this specific class.

You honestly can’t tell the difference?

EVERY class has a few unique skills and traits other classes wish they had. It’s what makes them unique and fun to play, and a total headache to balance. Or are you saying because mesmers have utilities like Portals they deserve to be penalised more from a condition that otherwise affects every other class in the same fashion? How in the world are these two connected? Is that your logic you are basing your request for people to “give it up”? (Amusing you added this last line to your post; in this class forum you’ve been jumping from thread to thread making statements with logic like this which people pointed out the faults of repeatedly, which you responded with-surprise, silence and refusal to support your argument.)

A blind on a guardian works the same on a warrior. Or elementalist. Necro. Ranger. Engineer. Thief. Next outgoing (non-ground targeting, I believe)attack misses, and removed straight after.

But nope, not mesmers. Because they have a 5 point CDR minor trait and a few skills that may or may not be currently slotted in the skill slots, their blinds should cancel out a summon and any utilities attached to it altogether, deny the class resource, disable class mechanic skills(F1-4) and should linger even after their outgoing “attack” fails.

Last I’ve seen, the description on blind doesn’t say it is class-specific.

Imbalance in skills classes have has NOTHING to do with imbalance in how a class-wide game mechanic works on them. They should be adjusted separately.

I completely agree that it needs to go off whenever they use an ability. I wouldn’t argue that.

However, although it does hurt a Mesmer using an Illusion far more than another class using a multi hit ability, it doesn’t mean all classes are hurt the same from a blind.

Let me give you a situation: A thief uses Cloak and Dagger, but was hit by a blind beforehand. The skill may not be on cooldown, but 50% of their global cooldowns are now gone. See what I’m getting at here? Classes and skills are affected differently by blind. Depending on what skill is blocked via blind, you are hurt the most. For mesmers, it happens to be illusions. For thieves, it’s really any ability that isn’t low cost initiative or an auto attack. I could list more, but I think this example should suffice. Only as you see it are all classes aside from Mesmer treated the same via blind. In reality, they are not.

Once again, I completely agree that blind should be removed when it blocks a summon. I play a Mesmer, and I honestly have no problem with this. I’m more annoyed by “obstructed” when trying to hit someone on tower walls, honestly.

How about Anet makes a 9th class, call it “Portal kitten”. It’s only ability is a 4 minute cool down Portal. Take Portal away from the Mesmer.

Now can we Mesmers have balance? The Portal kitten class has a Portal, so it is automatically over powered, but that won’t hurt our balance.

Krathalos.3461:

ddoi.9264:

Equality in how classes are treated, not as in what range of skills they have.
See, blind is a condition that encompasses all classes.
Portal is a skill that is built into this specific class.

You honestly can’t tell the difference?

EVERY class has a few unique skills and traits other classes wish they had. It’s what makes them unique and fun to play, and a total headache to balance. Or are you saying because mesmers have utilities like Portals they deserve to be penalised more from a condition that otherwise affects every other class in the same fashion? How in the world are these two connected? Is that your logic you are basing your request for people to “give it up”? (Amusing you added this last line to your post; in this class forum you’ve been jumping from thread to thread making statements with logic like this which people pointed out the faults of repeatedly, which you responded with-surprise, silence and refusal to support your argument.)

A blind on a guardian works the same on a warrior. Or elementalist. Necro. Ranger. Engineer. Thief. Next outgoing (non-ground targeting, I believe)attack misses, and removed straight after.

But nope, not mesmers. Because they have a 5 point CDR minor trait and a few skills that may or may not be currently slotted in the skill slots, their blinds should cancel out a summon and any utilities attached to it altogether, deny the class resource, disable class mechanic skills(F1-4) and should linger even after their outgoing “attack” fails.

Last I’ve seen, the description on blind doesn’t say it is class-specific.

Imbalance in skills classes have has NOTHING to do with imbalance in how a class-wide game mechanic works on them. They should be adjusted separately.

I completely agree that it needs to go off whenever they use an ability. I wouldn’t argue that.

However, although it does hurt a Mesmer using an Illusion far more than another class using a multi hit ability, it doesn’t mean all classes are hurt the same from a blind.

Let me give you a situation: A thief uses Cloak and Dagger, but was hit by a blind beforehand. The skill may not be on cooldown, but 50% of their global cooldowns are now gone. See what I’m getting at here? Classes and skills are affected differently by blind. Depending on what skill is blocked via blind, you are hurt the most. For mesmers, it happens to be illusions. For thieves, it’s really any ability that isn’t low cost initiative or an auto attack. I could list more, but I think this example should suffice. Only as you see it are all classes aside from Mesmer treated the same via blind. In reality, they are not.

Once again, I completely agree that blind should be removed when it blocks a summon. I play a Mesmer, and I honestly have no problem with this. I’m more annoyed by “obstructed” when trying to hit someone on tower walls, honestly.

Valid point, I have overlooked that one. I have generalised too much in that claim.

When it comes down to it, I guess it’s the degree each class is penalised by each condition/action. I’m still concerned that mesmers seem to suffer the most, due to as the OP said, a significant amount of dps being dependant on phantasms/illusions as well as many utilities + shattering. The consequences of illusion skills failing are staggering and nothing like other classes failing their attack skills. Even the Cloak and Dagger example you used which I agree is quite a disaster when it fails, seems to pale in comparison.

Even when not speaking in relative terms to other classes, illusion skills affect the performance of this class far too much to be denied this easily. In best case scenarios they seem borderline overpowered. Worst case scenario the mesmer is stuck with its pathetic auto attack with more than half of its utilities disabled. It’s all just too random. I can see why that could be an aspect of fun, but so far, especially in pve it is nothing but utter annoyance. In a game where in the end the damage you do decide the outcome of battles more than anything else, this mechanic behaving in such a way to deny not only a class’s skills to do meaningful damage, but surviability as well is going far too much. I have to agree with the OP that the factor is severely unbalanced.

Krathalos.3461:

I completely agree that it needs to go off whenever they use an ability. I wouldn’t argue that.

However, although it does hurt a Mesmer using an Illusion far more than another class using a multi hit ability, it doesn’t mean all classes are hurt the same from a blind.

Let me give you a situation: A thief uses Cloak and Dagger, but was hit by a blind beforehand. The skill may not be on cooldown, but 50% of their global cooldowns are now gone. See what I’m getting at here? Classes and skills are affected differently by blind. Depending on what skill is blocked via blind, you are hurt the most. For mesmers, it happens to be illusions. For thieves, it’s really any ability that isn’t low cost initiative or an auto attack. I could list more, but I think this example should suffice. Only as you see it are all classes aside from Mesmer treated the same via blind. In reality, they are not.

Once again, I completely agree that blind should be removed when it blocks a summon. I play a Mesmer, and I honestly have no problem with this. I’m more annoyed by “obstructed” when trying to hit someone on tower walls, honestly.

…Only that phantoms aren’t attacks… they are summons… no other class has a summon negated by a blind. If they applied the rules to all summons I wouldn’t complain, as it would be balanced.

Even if they were attacks… multiple hit/aoe ones like izerker and idualist still shouldn’t be stopped by a single blind/dodge/block. You could make that case for iswordsman though. Again… if you applied these rules to all multi hit/aoe attacks I wouldn’t complain.

All people are asking for are for the same rules to apply to everyone. Because of this change, they don’t… no matter how you look at it.

Aberrant.6749:

…Only that phantoms aren’t attacks… they are summons…

They’re an exotic ranged attack that doubles as our class resource.

• You have to launch them at a single target, when the target dies the illusion ends. Summons patter off to find a new target.

• Summons are typically fairly robust allowing them to help attack multiple foes, illusions are made of glass and are there to be broken they serve as a close analogue to walking, stabbing adrenaline bars – you can either break them, or you can gamble that they’ll live long enough to make a second strike or use them as a decoy, but they’re an expendable resource foremost.

• Summons are created in advance and stand by their master until they are needed. Illusions are created on the fly and launched at the foe and are removed from play when the target dies.

The fact you treat your illusions are summons says a lot about how much experience you have playing the class. Mechanically they behave more like ranged attacks, and if you treat them as such your play-style will benefit greatly from it instead of trying to herd phantys around like a minion master.

Ryuujin.8236:

Aberrant.6749:

…Only that phantoms aren’t attacks… they are summons…

They’re an exotic ranged attack that doubles as our class resource.

• You have to launch them at a single target, when the target dies the illusion ends. Summons patter off to find a new target.

• Summons are typically fairly robust allowing them to help attack multiple foes, illusions are made of glass and are there to be broken they serve as a close analogue to walking, stabbing adrenaline bars – you can either break them, or you can gamble that they’ll live long enough to make a second strike or use them as a decoy, but they’re an expendable resource foremost.

• Summons are created in advance and stand by their master until they are needed. Illusions are created on the fly and launched at the foe and are removed from play when the target dies.

The fact you treat your illusions are summons says a lot about how much experience you have playing the class. Mechanically they behave more like ranged attacks, and if you treat them as such your play-style will benefit greatly from it instead of trying to herd phantys around like a minion master.

and if treat mesmer illusion as a simple weapon atack says a lot about how muck experience you have playing other classes.

illusion arent summons but are even far from be simple weapon atacks compared other classes.

Ryuujin.8236:

Aberrant.6749:

…Only that phantoms aren’t attacks… they are summons…

They’re an exotic ranged attack that doubles as our class resource.

• You have to launch them at a single target, when the target dies the illusion ends. Summons patter off to find a new target.

• Summons are typically fairly robust allowing them to help attack multiple foes, illusions are made of glass and are there to be broken they serve as a close analogue to walking, stabbing adrenaline bars – you can either break them, or you can gamble that they’ll live long enough to make a second strike or use them as a decoy, but they’re an expendable resource foremost.

• Summons are created in advance and stand by their master until they are needed. Illusions are created on the fly and launched at the foe and are removed from play when the target dies.

The fact you treat your illusions are summons says a lot about how much experience you have playing the class. Mechanically they behave more like ranged attacks, and if you treat them as such your play-style will benefit greatly from it instead of trying to herd phantys around like a minion master.

Attacks can’t be killed. Summons can. Our phantoms are temporary summons, just like the guardians weapon summons (which also can be destroyed for an effect). The only difference is we need a target to create them and they die when our target dies (again… attacks don’t die).

Aberrant.6749:

Ryuujin.8236:

Mechanically they behave more like ranged attacks, and if you treat them as such your play-style will benefit greatly from it instead of trying to herd phantys around like a minion master.

Attacks can’t be killed. Summons can. Our phantoms are temporary summons, just like the guardians weapon summons (which also can be destroyed for an effect). The only difference is we need a target to create them and they die when our target dies (again… attacks don’t die).

At the most you can consider them as a peculiar form of conditions.

Surbrus.6942:

Aberrant.6749:

Ryuujin.8236:

Mechanically they behave more like ranged attacks, and if you treat them as such your play-style will benefit greatly from it instead of trying to herd phantys around like a minion master.

Attacks can’t be killed. Summons can. Our phantoms are temporary summons, just like the guardians weapon summons (which also can be destroyed for an effect). The only difference is we need a target to create them and they die when our target dies (again… attacks don’t die).

At the most you can consider them as a peculiar form of conditions.

Yeah, really clones are fine, but I think most of the problems with the class would be fixed if phantasms were made into hexes instead and defender and disenchanter were completely redone.

Surbrus.6942:

How about Anet makes a 9th class, call it “Portal kitten”. It’s only ability is a 4 minute cool down Portal. Take Portal away from the Mesmer.

Now can we Mesmers have balance? The Portal kitten class has a Portal, so it is automatically over powered, but that won’t hurt our balance.

Agreed. I am getting so sick of hearing how we need to be nerfed more because of portals. If we are having to choose between portals and balance, just get rid of the portals please.

Funny that every time we get nerfed, others come barging in with ‘But you have portals’.

I hope people realize that a lot of Mesmers (myself included) wouldn’t mind the Portal ability to be toned down to 5-10 people max.

From now on my new response to anything is “But portals!”

skupuz.6940:

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

That Numot said.

Adapt to the new restriction and move on.

On the other hand, they could fix it and make the ability miss and put it on cool down (like every other class).

Actually, they should fix it like every other class. Make the ability miss and put it on cool down…

skupuz.6940:

skupuz.6940:

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

That Numot said.

Adapt to the new restriction and move on.

On the other hand, they could fix it and make the ability miss and put it on cool down (like every other class).

Actually, they should fix it like every other class. Make the ability miss and put it on cool down…

Why don’t you just go hang out on your own class forums instead of trying to get a reaction out the mesmers by standing by their bugs…

Adapting to change is fine, nessecary even. But adapting to bugs is not ok.

a thief using unload while blinded misses the first attack,
a mesmer using illusionary duelist while blinded misses all the attacks.That’s more then reason for it to be unbalanced.

I think there are a few problems with the way blind works in general but the way you guys are saying to fix it also makes it so its a non-issue for mesmers. It really does depend on the way you view the illusion skills for the mesmer because they are semi-complex abilities. They’re less akin to skills like hundred blades or rapid fire because for those skills the person who is using them cant be doing anything else while doing them, theyre commited to the skill and it can be stopped with something like a knockdown or some other hard cc. If youre saying they are similar then when a mesmer gets blinded sure it should only stop the first hit of the illusion, but when a mesmer is knocked back, dazed or disabled in any other way other than blind all of his illusions should disappear.
Illusions are more like DoTs though than anything. They’re skills that you press once and they keep doing damage to a single target until they fall off, more similar to burning or bleeding. The only differences is that mesmer illusions cant be removed by standard condition removal but can be destroyed. They have the definite advantage though of also doubling as a defensive option. Because they’re more like DoTs they should probably behave just like other DoTs and when you blind, lets say a elementalist and it eats up his 7k burn he would’ve put on you, its the same as if one of your clones just didn’t go off and do its damage. It seems reasonably fair to me.
Now if your argument is that the only way mesmers can do damage is by going full power/crit burst and seeing as blind is built to stop burst then blind affects more mesmers than it should then that would be something to look into. But saying that mesmers abilities shouldnt be stopped by blind because it shuts down lots of their damage, then thats just kinda wrong because all classes have things that can shut down their their damage. It’d be like me saying, curing conditions should only remove one stack of bleed because then all you need is one condition remover to stop my bleed based ranger.

I normally avoid these threads because they get a little hot, tonight however I feel compelled to post. Blind functions a little brokenly on a Mesmer, I don’t need to add reasons to why that’s already been posted. The most common retort is well it’s fine because you have access to this or that, and to some degree I can agree with this.

Now then, that being said, I’m inclined to compromise quite a bit to have working abilities again. Most of us would probably agree that Portal for a zerg seems a little too strong, limit to 5 is fine, reduced CD so it’s useful again in PvE, whilst at the same time not allowing one to portal with a package in hand (most simple solution to Treb porting) seems like an excellent trade to me. Just bring more Mesmers for your WvW Zergs! Which of course weakens your overall variety in WvW but puts time between your portals and ebbs the flow of the zerg and limits the number to probably around 10 to 20 at most while putting a lot of stuff on CD for many players at once. Likewise the PvE benefit goes up and not being able to portal with a package removes trivializing that Trebuchet destroying Ele or Thief in tPvP as well as several dungeons that have you run a boulder dodge run to land a package where it needs to go.

To the passive CDR to illusions I personally want to be rid of it. I play my mesmer and hate that 5 points that MUST be used, as much as I hate my 20 points in Dueling that I NEED right now because of blind. I really would like to see a return to a phantasm oriented support build, or a glamour fun stuff build, options would be best, and that trait just makes everything else too good. Just remove both please! Give me a 5 point trait that makes a clone on dodge and drops targetting with an Internal Cooldown that way it’s less likely to break it, and then a 20 point trait in Dueling that creates two clones on crit with an ICD as well.

That done I have a defense option available almost anytime, dodge make clone shatter, in the shattering tree! I have an offensive tool that can be used to shatter in the offensive tree! Mesmer burst is reduced even with appropriate timing of those passives. With changes as such you’d probably need to give the UI some tweaking so being a good player is a bit easier with some way to track passive’s ICDs visually.

A ton of information, not all of it based on just nerf this it’s doing too much damage, or QQ we’ve lost so much, I’d much rather have a more balanced class.

Metabeard.1538:

They’re less akin to skills like hundred blades or rapid fire because for those skills the person who is using them cant be doing anything else while doing them, theyre commited to the skill and it can be stopped with something like a knockdown or some other hard cc. If youre saying they are similar then when a mesmer gets blinded sure it should only stop the first hit of the illusion, but when a mesmer is knocked back, dazed or disabled in any other way other than blind all of his illusions should disappear.

Except that Phantasms (and not all illusions mind you; clones, defender, and disenchanter are illusions too) can be killed, also in that way they aren’t like a DoT.

I didn’t see that post before responding. It should be noted that your post seems to hate mesmers a great deal from the points you are making throughout the entire thing.

Mefistofell.8619:

ddoi.9264:

Numot.3965:

So tossing an auto when you have blindness to get rid of it, like a smart person is too much effort?

A solution to a broken mechanic doesn’t mean the mechanic is not broken anymore.

U guys think other classes dont have problem with blind ? we all suffer from it ,considering how long cd some skill of the other classes has ,and we dont have 5 guys who look like us running around on the field and confusing every1 do we? not to mention all the other cool stuff u have. Blind messes up every1 combo not only mesmers

It is lovely how little you know about mesmer:D Are we playing the same game :P?

Sabin.4590:

a thief using unload while blinded misses the first attack,
a mesmer using illusionary duelist while blinded misses all the attacks.That’s more then reason for it to be unbalanced.

A thief using cloak and dagger while blinded misses the attack, and loses 6 out of 12 of the base initiative they have (global cooldown).
A Mesmer using Blurred Frenzy while blinded misses the first attack.
That’s more than reason for it to be unbalanced.

See what I did there? All classes are hurt by Blind whenever they use an ability that is affected by it the most. For Mesmers, it happens to be Illusions. Stop acting like all classes are the same when you compare a multi-hit ability when blinded. If you were comparing Blurred Frenzy to Unload, then it would have been a fair comparison. Apples and oranges…