Guild Wars 2

maha.7902:

Are you trying to imply that melee equals bypassing mechanics and therefore I don’t enjoy fighting mechanics? Do you realise that in a single arah path 2 run I switch my build six times so I can fight the mechanics better? I resent bypassing mechanics, it’s why I resent fiery Greatsword. The difference is, that actually bypasses, melee itself doesn’t. I don’t play for gold either, so don’t generalise – I’ll run a dungeon multiple times despite having my daily if it interests me because I play for fun and to hone my skills. Maybe one day I’ll be completely infallible, or at least hold some boss solo records.

Something to note is that fgs has become synonymous with stacking for many people.

Fay.2735:

I like using greatsword and I have no trouble killing things but then I don’t care about doing something 5 seconds faster.

I was all here ready to call your bluff and went ahead and solo’d Champing Icebrood Wolf using only the greatsword, just for fun. What do you know, my kill time compared to the sword/sword/focus attempt came out to be… only 3.7 seconds slower.

Guess I’ll let you have your way this time XD

frifox.5283:

Fay.2735:

I like using greatsword and I have no trouble killing things but then I don’t care about doing something 5 seconds faster.

I was all here ready to call your bluff and went ahead and solo’d Champing Icebrood Wolf using only the greatsword, just for fun. What do you know, my kill time compared to the sword/sword/focus attempt came out to be… only 3.7 seconds slower.

Guess I’ll let you have your way this time XD

I bet it was a lot easier too =P

frifox.5283:

Fay.2735:

I like using greatsword and I have no trouble killing things but then I don’t care about doing something 5 seconds faster.

I was all here ready to call your bluff and went ahead and solo’d Champing Icebrood Wolf using only the greatsword, just for fun. What do you know, my kill time compared to the sword/sword/focus attempt came out to be… only 3.7 seconds slower.

Guess I’ll let you have your way this time XD

The combo I like to do is. I start in Sword/Sword. Get swordman out > Swap to Gsword before I get into combat (Means no CD on WS) > Use Mirror blade > Get iZerker out > Swap to S/S > Depending on distance, use Illusionary leap to get close > Blurred Frenzy. Then try to get another swordman out as soon as possible. If I need to get out of melee for whatever reason I just swap to Gsword and do another Mirror Blade/iZerker so I just try to get out 3 phantasms asap and they hit like a truck.

It’s a fun combo. I also use mantras so there’s a bunch of micro managing involved as well. Sure it’s not the most optimal build or a meta build and it will raise some peoples eyebrow but I have fun doing it my PvP build is somewhat similar just without mantras but the PvP meta is really not in favour of phantasm builds any more (Hasn’t been for the past year).

You could say I haven’t really been playing much the past few months after 5k+ hours I’m kind of burned out and waiting for new content. I guess what I’m saying is that sure Gsword isn’t optimal but it’s not useless either. I mean if you were using scepter in PvE fair enough but I did all the content in the game prior using a Gsword with reasonable efficiency so whether you go completely melee (and/or only stack in corners) or use a Gsword it’s not a major deal unless you reaaally care about being super optimal or just want to do melee only. I also like Gsword because it makes it a bit easier to quickly move to range to type something in chat and then move back into melee (This goes for if you aren’t cheesing a boss in a corner).

And the reason for pointing out the cheesing bosses in corners in relation to pure melee is because the main reason melee is so optimal is because you can throw a boss in a corner and take virtually no damage before it’s dead. To do melee without cheesing bosses is a lot more fun and more challenging but people don’t generally do that (For example I like staying in melee on Subject Alpha when not cheesing him because I like timing blocks and such and for some reason he always aggros to me so.. hugging him with my sword is fun)

skcamow.3527:

I bet it was a lot easier too =P

Yes, VERY easy and got it done on the first try too. But that was actually a bad example though since I had to kite 90% of the time with sword but with gs I could kite and still deal damage.

We need a better comparison, an encounter where I can reliably attack with the sword without kiting. Luckily I had that covered too:

• [1 min 48 sec] Sw + 2 Wardens & 1 Swordsman
• [2 min 32 sec] GS + 2 Wardens & 1 Berserker

GS under same environment was about 30% slower than sword and even that was with ideal conditions. This is why everyone on here hates on the weapon – it’s just too dam slow.

Fay.2735:

frifox.5283:

Fay.2735:

I like using greatsword and I have no trouble killing things but then I don’t care about doing something 5 seconds faster.

I was all here ready to call your bluff and went ahead and solo’d Champing Icebrood Wolf using only the greatsword, just for fun. What do you know, my kill time compared to the sword/sword/focus attempt came out to be… only 3.7 seconds slower.

Guess I’ll let you have your way this time XD

The combo I like to do is. I start in Sword/Sword. Get swordman out > Swap to Gsword before I get into combat (Means no CD on WS) > Use Mirror blade > Get iZerker out > Swap to S/S > Depending on distance, use Illusionary leap to get close > Blurred Frenzy. Then try to get another swordman out as soon as possible. If I need to get out of melee for whatever reason I just swap to Gsword and do another Mirror Blade/iZerker so I just try to get out 3 phantasms asap and they hit like a truck.

It’s a fun combo. I also use mantras so there’s a bunch of micro managing involved as well. Sure it’s not the most optimal build or a meta build and it will raise some peoples eyebrow but I have fun doing it my PvP build is somewhat similar just without mantras but the PvP meta is really not in favour of phantasm builds any more (Hasn’t been for the past year).

You could say I haven’t really been playing much the past few months after 5k+ hours I’m kind of burned out and waiting for new content. I guess what I’m saying is that sure Gsword isn’t optimal but it’s not useless either. I mean if you were using scepter in PvE fair enough but I did all the content in the game prior using a Gsword with reasonable efficiency so whether you go completely melee (and/or only stack in corners) or use a Gsword it’s not a major deal unless you reaaally care about being super optimal or just want to do melee only. I also like Gsword because it makes it a bit easier to quickly move to range to type something in chat and then move back into melee (This goes for if you aren’t cheesing a boss in a corner).

And the reason for pointing out the cheesing bosses in corners in relation to pure melee is because the main reason melee is so optimal is because you can throw a boss in a corner and take virtually no damage before it’s dead. To do melee without cheesing bosses is a lot more fun and more challenging but people don’t generally do that (For example I like staying in melee on Subject Alpha when not cheesing him because I like timing blocks and such and for some reason he always aggros to me so.. hugging him with my sword is fun)

LoS the first champion in SE p3 near the stairs and don’t bring condition cleanses. Posts like yours make me so angry because you don’t even understand what’s going on in the stack yet not only do you condemn and claim corner stacking is cheering and makes you take barely any damage but you say “but it’s fine against alpha because I said so”. Am I wasting my time? I think I’m wasting my time. Nobody cares, nobody wants to learn. Everybody just wants to wallow in their own ignorance.

frifox.5283:

skcamow.3527:

I bet it was a lot easier too =P

Yes, VERY easy and got it done on the first try too. But that was actually a bad example though since I had to kite 90% of the time with sword but with gs I could kite and still deal damage.

We need a better comparison, an encounter where I can reliably attack with the sword without kiting. Luckily I had that covered too:

• [1 min 48 sec] Sw + 2 Wardens & 1 Swordsman
• [2 min 32 sec] GS + 2 Wardens & 1 Berserker

GS under same environment was about 30% slower than sword and even that was with ideal conditions. This is why everyone on here hates on the weapon – it’s just too dam slow.

While I run meta builds and such when I do dungeons, I must point out the faults of that comparison.

Greatsword is optimally used in a mobile and dangerous fight such as against the icebrood wolf. This is due to several reasons. First, the greatsword’s second large damage skill is mirror blade. You can’t use this if you have 3 phantasms out without lowering dps. The sword equivalent is blurred frenzy, which can be used fine. Secondly, greatsword is higher damage at longer range. This means that in a very close range fight, it loses lots of damage.

Note the spec that Fay was using. Greatsword+sw/sw, and she even talked about how she generally stays melee range with dual swords during alpha. Now, to adapt this into using a focus for alpha, you have 2 options. You can replace the gs with focus, or you can replace the sword with focus. You chose to replace the sword with focus, that’s fine. However, just because you have a greatsword doesn’t mean you have to camp it the entire time. You’ve also got that sword.

So, a better comparison would be the difference between sword autos with 2 wardens + swordsman and sword autos with 2 wardens + zerker. Alternatively you could try to do something with turning the fight into a mobile one similar to the icebrood wolf, but alpha isn’t really conducive to that.

I kept alpha in the corner simply so wardens would perma reflect his direcitonal attack without any problems. It is possible to camp range him with gs with wardens keeping him at bay in a similar fashion from the distance too. I’ll try that later on tonight.

frifox.5283:

I kept alpha in the corner simply so wardens would perma reflect his direcitonal attack without any problems. It is possible to camp range him with gs with wardens keeping him at bay in a similar fashion from the distance too. I’ll try that later on tonight.

I know why you did what you did, but that still bypasses the fact that due to being able to easily keep 3 phantasms up in alpha fights, the greatsword instantly loses a significant amount of damage.

Again, I understand the meta builds, I run the meta builds. But if you’re going to try and make comparisons between using greatsword and meta builds, you need to try and avoid fights such as Subject Alpha in which you can basically afk melee with 3 phantasms up. The number of fights like that in the game is very very low.

If the only difference was one berserker instead of the swordsman then the difference in dps would be negligible. The only point I was trying to get across was against those who prefer to camp the gs in dungeons, where fights are 99% stack-n-smack style.

frifox.5283:

If the only difference was one berserker instead of the swordsman then the difference in dps would be negligible. The only point I was trying to get across was against those who prefer to camp the gs in dungeons, where fights are 99% stack-n-smack style.

That’s an extreme though. Use the greatsword intelligently and while the damage will still be worse, it won’t be an incredible drop.

The problem is people not using it intelligently.

maha.7902:

LoS the first champion in SE p3 near the stairs and don’t bring condition cleanses. Posts like yours make me so angry because you don’t even understand what’s going on in the stack yet not only do you condemn and claim corner stacking is cheering and makes you take barely any damage but you say “but it’s fine against alpha because I said so”. Am I wasting my time? I think I’m wasting my time. Nobody cares, nobody wants to learn. Everybody just wants to wallow in their own ignorance.

You didn’t read my post. For a start I wasn’t talking about SE, where did that even come from? I’m also quite aware how stacking works as I do do runs with stacking I just don’t enjoy them because you ARE bypassing the fights mechanics in favour of quickly burning through the bosses to get to the end reward.

Did I ever say that cheesing is a bad thing? No, people can do what they want to do. I just personally prefer engaging with a fights mechanics because it’s more enjoyable to me than getting to the end reward the fastest.

I also didn’t say anything about stacking against Alpha I said I like fighting Alpha while not stacking on him in a corner, using melee (And not using focus type reflects) the fight is a lot of fun that way.

So next time you rage against someone and call them ignorant you should actually read what they said. I mean I get that you don’t comprehend my playstyle and why I like to play the game that way because you play differently but that’s no excuse to say someone is ignorant. If anything, it makes you the ignorant one for being unwilling to understand someone elses view point and completely misinterpreting what they say entirely because it doesn’t match your opinion.

I mean if you want a more comprehensive explanation of what I’m talking about feel free to PM me and I’ll be happy to explain where I’m coming from. But I’m done on this thread. There is a lot of ‘My way is the only way’ going on and unwillingness to respect that there are different ways to play the game so I’m bailing out. I had hoped to show that it’s okay to do things in different ways but it’s clear that there is no point arguing with people who a have already decided their way is the superior, best and only way.

You are not bypassing mechanics by stacking.

More importantly, there is no “my way is the only way” – what is happening is I’m saying play how you want, just don’t pretend that suboptimal builds and weapons are efficient.

One of the great advantages of GS is, that the Berserker (combined with Sharper Images) with its multiple attacks very much likely adds some bleeds and the warranted cripple and grabs the aggro too. Then swapping to Staff, summoning a clone and the warlock. The Warlock – thanks to staff-auto-attack-conditions by clone and Mesmer and condis by Berserker – will do much higher damage due to the overall sum of applied conditions. The Swordsman doesn’t apply any conditions and also bleed from Sharper Images is much less likely due to its only single attack.
I build for condition damage and illusion death effects, even in PvE. 0/3/5/2/4 never disappointed me so far. GS&Staff ofc =)

Lanhelin.3480:

One of the great advantages of GS is, that the Berserker (combined with Sharper Images) with its multiple attacks very much likely adds some bleeds and the warranted cripple and grabs the aggro too. Then swapping to Staff, summoning a clone and the warlock. The Warlock – thanks to staff-auto-attack-conditions by clone and Mesmer and condis by Berserker – will do much higher damage due to the overall sum of applied conditions. The Swordsman doesn’t apply any conditions and also bleed from Sharper Images is much less likely due to its only single attack.
I build for condition damage and illusion death effects, even in PvE. 0/3/5/2/4 never disappointed me so far. GS&Staff ofc =)

Glad it “works” for you. Kiting builds like this are very easy to play and survive with. I played one when I was leveling and had a lot of fun.

But if you’re building for condition damage, the warlock is doing less than if you would build for power, even with all the extra conditions. The overall damage from this going to be lower, your reflect damage is going to be lower, your kiting is going to keep you away from might stacks from your team, etc.

But if it makes you happy, hey, enjoy. Pew pew.

maha.7902:

You are not bypassing mechanics by stacking.

Not sure which ones are intended mechanics and which ones are oversights, but the AC queen spider comes to mind. Or pulling Fyonna from her cocoon-filled arena into the tunnel wall. Reflects are an intended mechanic, but poorly balanced, trivialising many fights.

Then there’s the general point of boss lifetime. While within the game’s mechanics, killing a boss extremely quickly negates intended drawbacks like skill cooldowns. For the record ignoring your economy and spamming only basic army units is perfectly within the rules of Starcraft, yet the 6pool became pretty much the definition of “cheese”.

Greatsword-swap is a better aoe burst opening than not using it at all, and having a ranged option is invaluable if you don’t, or truly can’t play “with the best” (aka able to melee-solo any boss after your noob PUG wipes). Lag issues, bad reaction times etc all prevent you from staying alive in melee, and in those cases it’s better to stand at range with a mathematically inferior weapon than getting 2 allies killed trying to res you.

Basically, within the speedrun/solo-clear community there is little to no use for the GS, but most players aren’t part of said community and many don’t even want to be.

Photoloss.4817:

many don’t even want to be.

This is fine. But when people ask for the “best” builds, GS isn’t going to come up because people actually are trying to do better. I don’t think anyone disagrees that GS is fine for casuals (as is pretty much everything except Torch).

And please, Spider Queen? You can trivially get the same effect by standing inside of her, the wall stack is just a simpler way of making sure your pug stays near her.

maxinion.8396:

This is fine. But when people ask for the “best” builds, GS isn’t going to come up because people actually are trying to do better. I don’t think anyone disagrees that GS is fine for casuals (as is pretty much everything except Torch).

And please, Spider Queen? You can trivially get the same effect by standing inside of her, the wall stack is just a simpler way of making sure your pug stays near her.

The OP certainly didn’t ask, he simply stated “optimal dps”. For any optimum you make a number of assumptions, in the case of these dungeon builds you’re expected to remain in melee range (and often above 90% hp) most of the time. The best players obviously can do all that, but the OP didn’t restrict the question to perfectly coordinated dungeon speedruns.

And how you glitch the spider isn’t important, fact is you can completely negate a massive area denial attack the fight is built around without much learning, personal skill or preparation. At the current state of the game it’s pretty much impossible to tell apart intended design from oversights or even outright bugs, but at least the Fyonna example was rectified in the Aetherpath, which locks the arena once you enter.

Photoloss.4817:

And how you glitch the spider isn’t important, fact is you can completely negate a massive area denial attack the fight is built around without much learning, personal skill or preparation. At the current state of the game it’s pretty much impossible to tell apart intended design from oversights or even outright bugs, but at least the Fyonna example was rectified in the Aetherpath, which locks the arena once you enter.

Yeah, I love glitching Lupi by staying out of range so he can’t kick me and one-shot me that way. Totally haxorz to recognize that some attacks are only done at certain range.

maxinion.8396:

Yeah, I love glitching Lupi by staying out of range so he can’t kick me. Totally haxorz to recognize that some attacks are only done at certain range.

We love ganging up in numbers of 100+ against bosses with a 50 target hardcap, the devs messed that one up too. Quite a few reactions to the Assault Knight fiasco were “wait, you didn’t see this coming???”

Some “mechanics changes” are clearly intended, but all of them? Actually, include the mechanics themselves too, CoF p1 portal, Arah p1 endboss, Fyonna (which you still haven’t addressed), CoE abom skip, CM everything with reflects, dozens of shortcuts through the dredge fractal (of which most have been patched, thus unwanted)… Let’s face it, the speedrunners know the dungeons far better than the devs themselves.

Greatsword has its place and role. Personally I don’t use greatswords because I dislike it on my female Human Mesmer for aesthetic reasons. She uses Scepter/Pistol+Staff or Sword/Focus+Staff, depending on the situation.

Foosnark.1784:

That’s me, adding conflict.

Oh, and addressing this, though I didn’t quote it at the time:

Guanglai Kangyi.4318:

OP may not have phrased it as such but I think he was asking if there’s any OBJECTIVE reason to run GS over sword, beyond “I like the pretty butterflies”.

hendo.1940:

The OP is looking for practical reasons, not “play how you want” reasons.

The conflict arises where people try to claim it’s an objectively good weapon, and not just “I like lasers”.

It is, in fact, an objectively good weapon for certain purposes and playstyles. Even in dungeons some people have personally found a use for it, but they’ve been repeatedly dismissed out of hand in this thread. Because apparently anyone who uses a GS is among the “bads” and is “scared.”

It doesn’t even matter whether one proves, objectively, that optimum DPS is achieved by using exactly X equipment and pressing Y buttons at Z time and that greatsword never factors in to it. Other people have found ways to make it work, and they’ve given those as the reasons why they use it. The game is playable without turning everyone into totally optimized meta machines.

If you can put me and Dub in the same thread saying the same thing, it’s probably true.