All is in the title. While the target limit (or its absence in this case) is strong for some situations (like WvW), the poor stealth duration and the long CD makes this utility unusable in any other situation.
I believe veil would make more sense with a halved CD (45) and 3s base duration. I don’t see how this would make it OP in any situation, what do you think?
That would make it comparable to Decoy, which is a bit much for a group stealth.
I’d personally like to have the version in the Veil reveal clip, but I guess that would be too similar to Shadow Refuge. It would work far better with Temporal Enchanter though.
That would make it comparable to Decoy, which is a bit much for a group stealth.
Decoy is instant and a stunbreak + its CD can be reduced to 32s. Veil needs to be cast and then walk into, giving much more counterplay.
But ok, maybe kitten was too much. Compare to shadow refuge though, which is a 60s CD, AOE stealth, 3s pulsing 5 times (so 10s max stealth) with healing… I think thieves SHOULD have the best stealth skills, so I’m fine with shadow refuge being better, but here this is not even comparable!
I would just like veil to be a skill which one could bring in PvP, and not being a skill only for WvW, and still criticized even there.
I’d personally like to have the version in the Veil reveal clip, but I guess that would be too similar to Shadow Refuge. It would work far better with Temporal Enchanter though.
Do you mean that it would stack if you cross it many times?
Let’s be honest. In PvP in particular (though PvE even more so) there’s no room for them on the bar, and they offer no function.
Portal is the only exception but let’s be honest, Portal is in and of itself its own unique skill. It’s just slapped with the “glamour” title because each skill set comes in a group of 4.
Don’t even get me started on the redundancy of traiting for them -_-u
Glamours need an overhaul. Simple as that. From traits, utilities, the adding of a heal, and a CD reduction to Time Warp (even just allowing the traited CD). Some “on glamour use” runes wouldn’t go amiss to help either, because honestly, they’d need it.
All is in the title. While the target limit (or its absence in this case) is strong for some situations (like WvW), the poor stealth duration and the long CD makes this utility unusable in any other situation.
I believe veil would make more sense with a halved CD (45) and 3s base duration. I don’t see how this would make it OP in any situation, what do you think?
Yes surely that wouldnt make it OP as all kitten in WvW. 5 or so Mesmers to permastealth a zerg woopwoop.
The long cooldown and short duration is there for a reason. You can already improve it alot by speccing glamour and PU. In smaller scale, decoy is meant to replace veil. Its a large scale support skill, not something you are supposed to bring to sPvP.
All is in the title. While the target limit (or its absence in this case) is strong for some situations (like WvW), the poor stealth duration and the long CD makes this utility unusable in any other situation.
I believe veil would make more sense with a halved CD (45) and 3s base duration. I don’t see how this would make it OP in any situation, what do you think?
Yes surely that wouldnt make it OP as all kitten in WvW. 5 or so Mesmers to permastealth a zerg woopwoop.
The long cooldown and short duration is there for a reason. You can already improve it alot by speccing glamour and PU. In smaller scale, decoy is meant to replace veil. Its a large scale support skill, not something you are supposed to bring to sPvP.
Your math is questionable at best. 3s base * 1.5 = 4 point 5 s with PU. 5 mesmers * 4 point 5 s base = 22.5s of stealth. 22.5s of stealth on a forty-five second cooldown = permastealth……..oops.
5 or so. Well, lets see. 45 cooldown / 4 point 5 s per skill gets us a neat 10 mesmers to permastealth a zerg. Not quite 5 or so.
Buuuuut that’s actually wrong too. Since you can’t overlap veils (you won’t get stealth unless you’re not in stealth), even the most perfectly coordinated veiling will still leave snippets of visible zerg to see moving around. Additionally, any set of 10 mesmers capable of that sort of split second coordination deserves to be able to almost permastealth a zerg.
You also have to consider how it compares to Mass Invisibility. MI is an Elite so if you buff Veil significantly chances are you would have to buff MI too.
Which is a problem. IMO Mesmers don’t need two skills that fill the same role (group stealth), especially when one is an Elite and the other is not. With that in mind I think the best thing for Veil is to axe it for something completely different.
Haven’t used this skill for ages. If you want to stealth allies, there’s MI and if you want to stealth yourself, there’s Decoy or Torch. The cooldown and duration makes this utility one of the most unused across all game modes for me. I’m not zerging in WvW, and I don’t think that anyone would use Veil outside of that specific WvW scenario.
It’s just not versatile and good enough to justify a whopping 90s CD. Make it apply reveal for enemies, enhance stealth duration to 3s and maybe cut the CD down to 60s and I’d consider it.
Anet hates [your class], since [other classes] got buffs while [your class] only received nerfs.
The original video for Veil shows the Mesmer hidden while inside it ala Shadow Refuge, no?
so, how about this approach:
Veil – 50s CD
Place a curtain of distorted vision, which lasts for 10 seconds. Anyone on the far side of the curtain cannot see anyone on the near side of the curtain.
That way the stealth is lasting, but you need to make sure that the curtain is actively in the LoS between you and the enemy to make your character “stealth”.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
Veil – 50s CD
Place a curtain of distorted vision, which lasts for 10 seconds. Anyone on the far side of the curtain cannot see anyone on the near side of the curtain.
That way the stealth is lasting, but you need to make sure that the curtain is actively in the LoS between you and the enemy to make your character “stealth”.
I think this would be difficult to implement, and in any case is needlessly complicated.
Let’s be honest. In PvP in particular (though PvE even more so) there’s no room for them on the bar, and they offer no function.
Portal is the only exception but let’s be honest, Portal is in and of itself its own unique skill. It’s just slapped with the “glamour” title because each skill set comes in a group of 4.
Don’t even get me started on the redundancy of traiting for them -_-u
Glamours need an overhaul. Simple as that. From traits, utilities, the adding of a heal, and a CD reduction to Time Warp (even just allowing the traited CD). Some “on glamour use” runes wouldn’t go amiss to help either, because honestly, they’d need it.
I think a problem with glamour rework is that wells fill largely the same niche: “supportive ground targeted skills”. Actually time warp would clearly have been an elite well if it was not there before HoT. You suggest a glamour heal, and I’m all for it because I think mesmer dramatically lacks outgoing heals, but it would need to be significantly different from well of eternity…
On the other hand, I think null field is a decent utility, and works well with chromancer as a “point holder”.
I think Glamours are different from Wells in the sense that Glamours are less “conventional”, if you get my meaning. Wells are nicely beefed out with damage, conditions and other “meaty” effects, while Glamours are a lot more utility-esque. Temporal Enchanter further reinforces this, although it’s rather too weak to be meaningful.
With that in mind a healing Glamour doesn’t really fit that idea, and as Silver said overlaps too much with Well of Eternity.
A way to rework Glamours while keeping them distinct from Wells could be to make them last longer in general. Null Field for example could last 10 seconds base and strip 1 condition/boon on cast and every 2 seconds after. Veil could last 12 seconds, allowing you and allies to constantly flit in and out of stealth. Temporal Enchanter would increase Glamour duration by 50% and pulse 5s Super Speed and 1s Resistance every 5s.
While Wells provide strong but fleeting effects, Glamours would be slow and steady.
I can’t imagine they would come up with a rune set to make use of glamours since only Mesmers have them. That being said, Temporal Enchanter could use some love. I’m having a hard time seeing what’s “Temporal” about the effects, and the only glamours that fit that theme are Portal and Time Warp.
The original video for Veil shows the Mesmer hidden while inside it ala Shadow Refuge, no?
so, how about this approach:
Veil – 50s CD
Place a curtain of distorted vision, which lasts for 10 seconds. Anyone on the far side of the curtain cannot see anyone on the near side of the curtain.
That way the stealth is lasting, but you need to make sure that the curtain is actively in the LoS between you and the enemy to make your character “stealth”.
I don’t think they have the tech to do so, but this is legit the coolest stealth suggestion i have ever seen. Invisibility cloak material right here, my gawd.
Let’s be honest. In PvP in particular (though PvE even more so) there’s no room for them on the bar, and they offer no function.
And this isn’t a bad thing.
The game has at least 3 pretty distinct areas. Mechanically distinct. It makes sense that each class has skills inherently more or less useful in each specific area. As a result of, well, the same class-set being used in all 3 modes.
That is to say, it’s not inherently an issue that veil is pretty useless in smallscale encounters, because in turn it excels in large-scale encounters. It’s specific to those large scale situations.
The strength of heart to face oneself has been made manifest. The persona Carighan has appeared.
All is in the title. While the target limit (or its absence in this case) is strong for some situations (like WvW), the poor stealth duration and the long CD makes this utility unusable in any other situation.
I believe veil would make more sense with a halved CD (45) and 3s base duration. I don’t see how this would make it OP in any situation, what do you think?
Yes surely that wouldnt make it OP as all kitten in WvW. 5 or so Mesmers to permastealth a zerg woopwoop.
The long cooldown and short duration is there for a reason. You can already improve it alot by speccing glamour and PU. In smaller scale, decoy is meant to replace veil. Its a large scale support skill, not something you are supposed to bring to sPvP.
Your math is questionable at best. 3s base * 1.5 = 4 point 5 s with PU. 5 mesmers * 4 point 5 s base = 22.5s of stealth. 22.5s of stealth on a forty-five second cooldown = permastealth……..oops.
5 or so. Well, lets see. 45 cooldown / 4 point 5 s per skill gets us a neat 10 mesmers to permastealth a zerg. Not quite 5 or so.
Buuuuut that’s actually wrong too. Since you can’t overlap veils (you won’t get stealth unless you’re not in stealth), even the most perfectly coordinated veiling will still leave snippets of visible zerg to see moving around. Additionally, any set of 10 mesmers capable of that sort of split second coordination deserves to be able to almost permastealth a zerg.
Actually you can use a veil twice. Which cuts your 10 down to… 5 or so. I never said the zerg did it while moving…
As a sidenote that I missed to point out earlier, veil cd was 72s last I checked. Not 90s as some say.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
You want to talk Glamour improvements? Easy. Double up the effects.
Feedback – 1 reflect Bubble appears on target, another appears on the caster. Reduce base CD to 25s (20s traited).
Reason: Feedback offers nothing outside of its reflect and takes up an entire utility slot your standard Mesmer can’t afford. The traited resistance also can’t proc unless the mesmer is on top of the target, which vs a ranged user is less likely to be the case -_-u
Adding something like chill wouldnt go amiss either as it’d have practical application vs melee users too. Or go with 3s single target slow and let it be treated as a mini Time Warp, so to speak.
Null Field – not gonna touch it. There’s ways to make it better but with other liabilities. It’s a decent glamor for PvP, though it doesnt compete with Chrono wells + alacrity now -_-u
Veil – Give it two casts. Drop first veil, run over it as you please, drop a second one within 10s. That’d make it worth its current CD.
Reason: Functional improvement for where it actually shines – WvW large scale. But would also offer something to the individual Mesmer looking for a long duration reprieve in a tight spot (though not without counters of course).
Portal – Big QoL improvements, and cut that CD down. It’s a fun util to have. Lets have more fun more often. (this is why people have alwatys wanted a personal, user only portal).
For all glamors traited effects need functionality improvements. This could also include specefic effects tied to each glamor. Such as “gain 1s stealth on entering portal, with ICD.”
Despite Ross’ bashing of glamours knowing how much of a fanboy I am, they do need a lot of base improvements. I like the suggestions he lays out for the most part.
Temporal Enchantment should change each glamour according to its needs similarly to Master of Fragmentation.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
That is quite easily fixed then.
Have the curtains apply the 2s duration if the parties do not have stealth, and apply the .5 duration of they do.
Boom worst glamour solved.
Temporal enchanter. Move the resistance/superspeed burst to 360 around the mesmer 5 targets.
Boom high potential trait made more awesome.
Keep everything else as is.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
That is quite easily fixed then.
Have the curtains apply the 2s duration if the parties do not have stealth, and apply the .5 duration of they do.
Boom worst glamour solved.
Temporal enchanter. Move the resistance/superspeed burst to 360 around the mesmer 5 targets.
Boom high potential trait made more awesome.
Keep everything else as is.
Yeah, why bother when they’ll never compete with Chrono/Wells.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
That is quite easily fixed then.
Have the curtains apply the 2s duration if the parties do not have stealth, and apply the .5 duration of they do.
Boom worst glamour solved.
Temporal enchanter. Move the resistance/superspeed burst to 360 around the mesmer 5 targets.
Boom high potential trait made more awesome.
Keep everything else as is.
Yeah, why bother when they’ll never compete with Chrono/Wells.
Boom, nothing but net.
^Double Boom, two idiom’s in one!
What part of wells competes with anything? You take them for alacrity. Just as glamour would be taken for resistance/super speed. I can’t balance them to outshine alacrity. The second you move back to decoy + blink the the third utility actually is competitive.
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
That is quite easily fixed then.
Have the curtains apply the 2s duration if the parties do not have stealth, and apply the .5 duration of they do.
Boom worst glamour solved.
Temporal enchanter. Move the resistance/superspeed burst to 360 around the mesmer 5 targets.
Boom high potential trait made more awesome.
Keep everything else as is.
Yeah, why bother when they’ll never compete with Chrono/Wells.
Boom, nothing but net.
^Double Boom, two idiom’s in one!
What part of wells competes with anything? You take them for alacrity. Just as glamour would be taken for resistance/super speed. I can’t balance them to outshine alacrity. The second you move back to decoy + blink the the third utility actually is competitive.
..but you wouldn’t take glamours for resistance/super speed
I like the idea of there being a “Master of Fragmentation”-type trait for glamours. Perhaps have it give each glamour an additional effect along with a cooldown reduction (this way, Time Warp can benefit — it’s already a strong skill applying mass Slow and Quickness).
Perhaps Null Field would gain 3-4 second of resistance to nullify damage while the condis tick off one by one.
I like the idea of Feedback appearing around both the Mesmer and the target. If not that, then maybe have it apply Chaos Armor to allies under the bubble.
Veil: Increase the stealth duration, but I think the superspeed buff (again 3 or 4 seconds) could be really neat here.
Portal: Hard to tweak it. I think that it’s pretty great on a 72-second cooldown. Maybe add a healing factor to it? Each time someone uses a portal, they are healed by 1,000-1,500.
If veil was only altered to behave like temporal curtain does now, would that be OP?
Something like 2 seconds entry, and .5 every reentry.
With PU and hop hoping that would be 7.5 second the same as MI which it shares a cd with.
Well I’m not an expert in WvW zerg fights, but that actually MAY BE too strong there. If stealth from veil stacked, you could use a couple of mesmers to hide a zerg for 6, 9 or more seconds which would mean complete havoc. You see how efficient portal bombs are there, and the only reason it’s not that common I believe is that it is somewhat difficult to set up. With long zerg-wide stealth, no need for portal bomb, you can just peacefully walk to the enemy backline and destroy them before they realized there was a zerg around.
That is quite easily fixed then.
Have the curtains apply the 2s duration if the parties do not have stealth, and apply the .5 duration of they do.
Boom worst glamour solved.
Temporal enchanter. Move the resistance/superspeed burst to 360 around the mesmer 5 targets.
Boom high potential trait made more awesome.
Keep everything else as is.
Yeah, why bother when they’ll never compete with Chrono/Wells.
Boom, nothing but net.
^Double Boom, two idiom’s in one!
What part of wells competes with anything? You take them for alacrity. Just as glamour would be taken for resistance/super speed. I can’t balance them to outshine alacrity. The second you move back to decoy + blink the the third utility actually is competitive.
..but you wouldn’t take glamours for resistance/super speed
When compared without alls well that ends well or temporal enchanter there is no overwhelming victory by either side.
When compared with those two traits and limiting the available utility slots to 1 there is still no overwhelm victory.
I do in fact take glamours for resistance. When I do a boon storm I like to add 20 seconds of resistance to the mix. In spvp when I run inspiration it’s useful to placing portals and getting out of there.
The only difficultly is feedback and veil which is why I suggested moving their effects.
Glamours are in the same basket as consecrations on guardians
“Kentigem”-chief. Born cycle of Dusk. Wyld Hunt:
Learn as much mending and medical info as possible so that it can be added to the Dream.
Become the first Chief of Mending and guide the newly awaken as well as those who want to learn.
(Just glanced over this topic … I may be redundant-ish)
Hell, if my memory doesn’t fail, Veil used to (pre-release) look almost as if it simply hid whatever was behind it. I wonder if something like that could be done, with ANet’s current tech/code setup? It’d be kinda funny to have folk looking at what looks to be a random piece of scenery …
Malegryne (Sylvari Mesmer), Lannka (Asura Thief) – Ferguson’s Crossing: [PRD/BRB/OMFG]
Other 80s: Any but Warrior
- 60s Recharge
- Reveals stealthed enemies that pass through.
I think the reveal makes sense considering the usual dual nature of glamours (and mesmer). Also it would be our only reveal, which would make this skill more attractive and have a clear niche.
. Thank’s Snoop-Chaos.