Guild Wars 2

Hey guys. I was hoping to open up a discussion on Mesmers and condition damage, specifically why choose condition over power?

I have a couple of condition build ideas in mind but I’m so acclimated to using power builds that I have a hard time justifying trying them out, so I was hoping some of the condition Mesmers out there could share their experiences and give some reasons as to why they prefer running condition builds over power builds. The Prismatic Understanding (PU) trait doesn’t count for much here, as it works for both power and condition builds; though I do realize that when gearing for conditions you do stack significantly more toughness with Rabid armor.

Still.. If a condition build simply does less damage than a power build -considering cleanses, teamfights and all- for more survivability then what situations does it outshine power?

Condition damage builds do damage in different ways than power builds, and are correspondingly more effective or less effective in different situations.

The most basic difference though, is that a fully offensive power build is glassy in zerker gear, but a fully offensive condition damage build is tanky, most likely stacking toughness. This allows for different opportunities.

In a power build, you never want to be in the middle of a skirmish, because it’s dangerous. There’s a lot of aoes, a lot of condition loading, it’s an overall nasty place to be. You hang around on the sidelines doing some damage until you can jump in for a powerful burst, and then get back out. With your power build, you’re able to make this powerful burst matter and have an effect.

If you tried to do that ‘jump in, burst, jump out’ tactic in a condition damage build, it wouldn’t work at all. Condition damage builds just aren’t based around bursting (which is why Maim is still a non-viable trait). However, you’re pretty tanky, you’ve got good sustain and good sustained aoe damage and control through conditions. Weakness is an incredibly powerful defensive condition, as is cripple, and aoe bleeding is strong pressure. The aforementioned condition load being a reason why power builds don’t skirmish in the middle is coming partly from you.

Condition damage builds are also able to specialize into a more defensive playstyle that power builds can’t quite match. Since a condition damage build doesn’t actually sacrifice any offense by going deep into the chaos traitline for PU, it’s potentially able to apply significant amounts of pressure while still having the capability for highly defensive play if it becomes necessary to do so. While PU phantasm (power) builds can do similar things, they’re inherently less effective because traiting into chaos sacrifices a significant amount of damage and phantasm sustain from the inspiration line.

What this allows you to do in a condition damage build is fulfill several roles at the same time. You can apply heavy pressure to a node defender through condition loading. Clone explosions work very well when attacking points because the aoe is large enough to hit nearly the whole point. This forces the defender to either eat the conditions or back off the point. Rapid kills/decaps can be achieved through proper aggressive play. This aggressive play is what many people falsely believe condition damage builds are incapable of. The aggressive style is different than in a power build, but is aggressive nonetheless. So this fulfills the role of roamer/node assaulter.

However, you’re also able to fill a somewhat different role. If the enemy team notices that you’re killing their home bunker, they’ll send someone to help. The condition damage build is able to transition to a highly evasive and defensive playstyle. This won’t hold the point, but it can easily maintain an active 2v1 without dying if played skillfully. This forces the overall game into a numbers advantage for your team, allowing them to win the match. A power build isn’t effectively capable of this.

On the other hand, a power build is able to strongly sway larger team fights. Condition damage builds (on mesmer) are somewhat less effective in a larger fight, but a properly played power build can lay down decisive burst damage to control a team fight.

The role of the power mesmer is in team support through direct fight control. The role of the condition mesmer is in team support through forcing numbers advantages or side point control.

I think that Condition Damage really shines in solo roaming, or possibly even in small group roaming when condition cleanses aren’t as readily available.

Condition Damage can also be applied more easily to multiple targets than power damage, Mind Wrack and Illusionary Berserker being the main exceptions. Clone Death traits provide all of those mini aoes with relatively little effort, whereas most of our powerful phantasms (Warlock, Duelist, Swordsman,) are single target.

Moreso than anything though, I think that using a Condition Damage build allows for the most potential stacking for defense stats while still allowing damage output. When trying to gear for Power, having to manage three stats (Power, Precision, Ferocity) while still mixing in some Toughness / Vitality is harder than just trying to stack Condition Damage and Precision for Sharper Images, (and possibly Condition Duration, although that’s an easy fix with Consumables)

That all said, I typically don’t like to run condition damage builds because honestly, I like seeing big numbers on my screen. Maxing out Conditions requires a lot of investment from gear / runes, but my biggest issue with Conditions is the almost inherent lack of mobility, (unless you’re willing to spend the coin on Traveler Runes, which would result in a noticeable decrease in condition damage). Diamond Skin Elementalists also make me wary of running pure condition – I always seem to run into them when I decide to dabble with a pure Condition build. Hybrid seems to be the way to go, although it’s hard to really shine with stats distributed so far apart.

TL:DNR version: Condition builds allow slightly more AoE damage with minimal effort, and Condition Damage builds typically allow more defensive stat stacking, allowing for lazier play.

Sinaya.4201:

TL:DNR version: Condition builds allow slightly more AoE damage with minimal effort, and Condition Damage builds typically allow more defensive stat stacking, allowing for lazier play.

This seems to have covered the main focus of a Condition build.

Adding to it, Condition build is a slow fight plus controlling the other player. I wont say it a lazy play style, more the opposite. Able to control your opponent/s takes more skills than busting them down fast.

The problem like you have said is that condition takes time before you see the results also, it can be easily removed. It is a shame Anet can’t do more with Conditions.

After the confusion nerf there’s no reason for it. It adds nothing more than a power build can do. Condition builds are bad at stomping, usually can’t really use their shatters for damage, are bad in groups cause most groups rely on bursting single targets fast down and can’t chase people.

I guess they’re good in duels… woho.

Honestly? I’ve been playing it recently just because it’s fun. Normally I tend to min/max, but I often get bored with a playstyle and want to try something new.

Controlling a fight, throwing on tons of conditions, all while being very defensive with stealth, boons, blocks, etc etc leads to a lot of really fun encounters. I always love outnumbered fights, and while I was just fine with them in my Power builds, trolling in condi is just so kitten fun!

Didn’t play full condition on the mesmer, but when you go full conditions is usually to capitalize 2 things.
1- You gain survivability because you usually get higher toughness
2 -The weapons/skills that you want to use work better on that playstyle.

I like Hybrid builds because you capitalize that we have a lot of hybrid skills. Also you have not a specific counter spec.
If people just go full condition denial you can kill them with dmg, if they are full bunker (talking about Toughness in this case) your conditions will be a good source of dmg since they ignore their toughness.

But sometimes I miss seeing the Big numbers…. and it’s always fun to do a big burst.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Hey guys. I was hoping to open up a discussion on Mesmers and condition damage, specifically why choose condition over power?

I have a couple of condition build ideas in mind but I’m so acclimated to using power builds that I have a hard time justifying trying them out, so I was hoping some of the condition Mesmers out there could share their experiences and give some reasons as to why they prefer running condition builds over power builds. The Prismatic Understanding (PU) trait doesn’t count for much here, as it works for both power and condition builds; though I do realize that when gearing for conditions you do stack significantly more toughness with Rabid armor.

Still.. If a condition build simply does less damage than a power build -considering cleanses, teamfights and all- for more survivability then what situations does it outshine power?

I’ve been using Napalm Cat for a while now and the beauty with cond dmg for me is that people tend to be looking for big dmg numbers as you do, so they seem to think I’m not doing any dmg at first. When all the conditions are up and they wasted their cleasning and burst they see whats going on and they try to run but then its too late.

For me cond dmg feels like a web that sticks on them from all angles and they tangle up and cant get away. i

Condi is a more passive gameplay than power. Dodge, spam clones, watch people killing them and loading themselves with conditions, bury a scepter #2 they can’t cleanse, win. At the same time, you can just phase retreat, blink, decoy, prestige, MI and abuse PU boons with a super tanky build to survive. It’s so easy, it’s just boring.

It’s tricky going from power to condition, you have to trust your clones and give up some control. In the end though well played condition PU builds do not have less dps than power PU builds, if anything 3 staff clone spam probably outdpses 2 pistol phantasms. Also condition builds have a lot more armor that clones also inherit.

Condition spec is a attrition playstyle, sure you got crazy stuff like scepter 2’s 5 stacks of torment, but dont expect it to last longer than 0.0002 sec before it’s cleansed. It’s more about being able to out last someone wile slowly widdling at their hp (conditions req less stats to be good compared to power, letting you pump stats into survive). Engineer is another story of course.

The problem is its a 1v1 type of spec/decapper/roamer/bunker?, and there is just so many better classes for doing that. Mesmer has a nice niche for stacking vuln,having tons of on demand interrupts, decent burst, and our ultimates that can turn around fights. making them great to have as dps roles in a lot of strats.

tl:dr not much reason, unless you like causing high levels of booty blisters in yolo que.

The biggest reason to me would be the fact you can stack a lot of defensive stats going condi build. The margin for error is larger and it also allow you to take on more players at once and/or get away from a losing fight. The down side of-course is lack of spike damage.

Mogar.9216:

The biggest reason to me would be the fact you can stack a lot of defensive stats going condi build. The margin for error is larger and it also allow you to take on more players at once and/or get away from a losing fight. The down side of-course is lack of spike damage.

Well you somehow can still spike with conditions.

Mogar.9216:

The biggest reason to me would be the fact you can stack a lot of defensive stats going condi build. The margin for error is larger and it also allow you to take on more players at once and/or get away from a losing fight. The down side of-course is lack of spike damage.

I agree on that, it’s very forgiving but I feel there are spike possibilities. Maybe not as fast kittenter but I can stack a lot of kitten that sucks their health pretty fast. Its like a grip tightening on their throat and squeeze them dead.

I’ve played shatter and power phantasm too and like them also. Shatter was what I played before the patch. I felt that I wanted to give cond a try after the patch and it’s really fun. I can take on more enemies than before and all the torment makes runners easier to handle.

People also seem to hate condition, which is a reason for me to use it, irritation and frustration is a stronk weapon. The reason above all for condition: I hate thiefs, now they dont stand a chance, and I love it.

Edit: grammarz and why does shatter turn into Kittener on one occasion?! In the first sentence..

To answer your edit -

“As” and “shatter” together makes the kitty filter think you’re trying to say a word that refers to someone’s backside with a hat on it.

The lengths the filter goes to is pretty funny sometimes.

In addition to other points people already made above, clonespam condi builds (with or without PU) rely on opponent being aggressive to you to counter and prevail by outlasting the opponent. Condi builds are made stronger than ever in the current meta because people really hate mesmers and will try to focus fire on mesmers at first sight, this i know from my personal experience in WvW.
I disagree with the statement condi build deals less damage then power build. You are comparing sustained damage over time vs burst damage in a short timeframe.

The one thing I dislike with condi builds is the ease that you escape them if you aren’t also targeted by somebody else that can cripple/cc you. I don’t like knowing that I am at the mercy of a foolhardy opponent when I roam etc. But in itself I find the playstyle pretty fun, especially confusion and punishing the enemy that way.

It’s a great defender though. I don’t think many builds/classes has a condi mesmer beat there.

Condition vs Power and why I personally prefer the former:

• Easier player style. It allows you to keep track of many more aspects of the battle instead of solely focusing on ensuring that your skill rotations go through. In most cases, if a power Mesmer will be squishier than most, so if you don’t burn them down quick, more than likely you’re doing down.
• Better AOE damage. Condi is the meta right now. There’s no doubt about that. Condis can and will most likely cripple a team quicker than zergs will. My build (shameless plug in my signature) adds three 4sec+ AOE condis consistently for the duration of any team fight.
• Long lasting conditions. Our main two conditions are obviously bleeding, vulnerability and torment. The first two are really easy to stack up, leading to an extremely weakened opponent. The torment on scepter will hit long hard in any build, especially with such a short CD.
• Durability. If a Mesmer is running condi, then most likely they’re on the tankier side as well. Carrion Mesmers are a threat, but face the same issue as zerkers as they’re super squishy. Most condition Mesmers will be able to hold their own in team fights even when being focused.

Overall, there are probably more reasons I can list why condi is my preferred role as a Mesmer. It should be noted that there are many reasons why Mesmer is great (some might say better) when focused on Power, but I saved those thoughts for a more appropriate thread.

Because Meteorlogicus wouldn’t work well for a power build.

But seriously, I used to play a power phantasm build. I switched to conditions to try something new.

I enjoyed PU Power pre-patch. Post-patch, with everyone running conditions and godmode bunker, not so much.

With my power build, a pair of hammer warriors will kill me. With my torment build, they kill themselves.

Keep in mind Zerg = Blob of people running together and Zerk = Berserker set user. I frequently see people wrongly using either of them.

Because ferocity

Regarding Open PvE: I still do not know exactly how to make all mobs attacking my illusions instead of me or what it is that triggers mob attention to an illusion during a fight. Plain damage seems to not count. It also has something to do with range, but there seems to be no secure rule how to achieve losing the aggro. Some mobs will attack phantasms nearly instant when they are summoned and attacked once, others ignore them completely and are focused on me, no matter what I do. The same with clones. It really is a mystery I wasn’t able to solve yet.

Eg. there is an Iceworm Champ in Lornar’s in the south (not the one in the cave) which I killed alone yesterday by “hiding behind a tree”. I auto attacked him once, summoned the iBerserker, dodged his range attack and hided behind a tree, where I got the message that my auto attack is blocked – and so was his range attack. I waited for the Berserker cd and summoned two more. So I stood behind this tree, blocked auto attacking the worm, who blocked range attacked me, ignoring the berserkers killing him. Prove: it’s not all about damage, it must also be some sort of “face aggro”
Edit: This also works for the Worm Champ in Diessa.

But because of this aggro-mystery, and in addition the high cd of phantasms and the lesser hp they have compaired to clones, it’s easier to either make a condition build (one can still use phantasms, it’s just a matter of time) or a hybrid build to survive most different pve situations.

While the ferocity changes did hit crit damage pretty hard, I think the sigil changes allow you to now combine sigil of strength and sigil of battle (as Osi pointed out in his thread). This not only lets the power attacks hit hard, but bleed stacks can pick up quite a bit of condition damage (if you’re going at least 15 into dueling).

For me, it’s more of how the gameplay feels as Pyro is describing. I just have a hard time getting comfortable with how the condi builds that I’ve tried so far actually play (especially considering I do a lot of solo roaming in WvW)

Lanhelin.3480:

Regarding Open PvE: I still do not know exactly how to make all mobs attacking my illusions instead of me or what it is that triggers mob attention to an illusion during a fight.

My experience is that the initial aggro is what matters. You can be far enough not to aggro a mob but close enough to summon a phantasm/clone to throw the first attack. After that, it seems to be that it attacks things randomly and in no particularly order. I’m probably wrong, but that’s just how it appears when I PvE.