Guild Wars 2

During the past months there has been a lot of interest in mesmer lockdown builds, but it seems like most of them are designed for pvp. I would like to discuss which kind of lockdown build other mesmers would use in wvw. Shatter is still my favorite, but lockdown is extremly fun to play and offers a different playstyle. If you want to skip my wall of text below, my main question is: „What do other mesmers consider a good lockdown build for wvw roaming?“

A few points before we start discussing:
• I´m talking about wvw roaming and smallscale fights – lockdown could be used to kill the enemy backline in a zerg fight, but shatter is just faster, so I wouldn´t use it in this situation
• stats from stacking sigils and guard buffs are an essential part of wvw roaming, so I always assume that we got full stacks (if the build includes a stacking sigil, that´s it)
• if I post builds, they are usually full ascended, these are just examples of what I think should work best. In reality I use a mix of exotics and ascended equipment and it works just fine

Ok let´s start, what do you think a good wvw lockdown build should look like? The first 3 points are the most important to me:
• there should be some kind of „punishing“ lockdown trait, like Chaotic Interruption or Confounding Suggestions
• mobility is king, so we need some kind of increased movement speed – Runes of the Traveler, Speed or Centaur, focus offhand, staff…
• condition remove, I definitly won´t play without some kind of counter to those condition spammers out there
• I like to have at least a bit of stopping power, it´s not a mesmer´s strength, but greatsword or offhand pistol will help
• boon remove to get rid of stability, protection…
• Mantra of Distraction, as a high range interrupt without casttime

What are possible builds that include as much points of this list as possible?
• 30-20-20-0-0: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscRlknpMtNqxINcrNipxYybih0B0wAlslxB-T1CEAB2t/wTKJI4IAko6ObpEkJlTTqSgUKRk4UA0m+AAeQABAQA2ZdWn7MwQH6QH6QHa3cn7cn7cnlCIilRA-w, inspired by „Mindcrush“ or „the Stunner“: lots of damage potential thanks to might and vulnerability stacking, boon remove, halting strike, but no built-in condition remove, so a utility slot is needed for this.

• 20-20-30-0-0: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscRlknpMtNqxINcrNipxY6biJHSGQDlslxB-T1CEAB2t/wTKFI4IAko6LbpEkJlNTqChUKhk4UA0m+AAeQABAQA2ZdWn7MwQH6QH6QHa38m38m38mlCAmlRA-w, sometimes called „the best“ lockdown trait distribution, offers nearly the same offense as the former build. Chaotic Interruption works better with greatsword and is in my opinion superior to Confounding Suggestions due to its longer duration. If ANet ever introduced a fourth utility slot for MoD and condition cleanse, this would definitly be my favorite lockdown build. But if you want to use Decoy, Blink and a cleanse, you´re stuck with only 3 interrupts (GS 5, S 4, F3 shatter)

• 0-30-30-10-0: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscRl0npMtNqxGNcrNyqxY6WO5lTtUpHJ7AA-T1CEABFqE0u9HeSJBBHBgEV3hJlaTqSgUKDk4UA0m+AAeQABAQAuZdWn3MwQH6QH6QHa38m3co38mlCAmlRA-w let´s start with the strange experimental stuff: to counter the increasing number of condition builds I tried to combine Mender´s Purity, mantra heal and Harmonious Mantras, which gives you a free utility slot for MoDistraction as well. In order to compensate the mantra recharge time, I extremly increased the amount of toughness for this build. Different versions ranging from 2400 to 2900 armor have been tested, around 2600 seemed optimal to me. The lack of boon remove and vulnerability stacking is sometimes annoying, using 2 mantras feels a bit weird as well

• 30-30-0-10-0: http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscRl0npMtNqxGNcrNipxcqqIdANMQpbZ8FA-T1CBABbpM4l9Hg4IAUpqKnpEELlQfqWBAnCAvU6kn+AGeQABAQA2ZdWn7MwQH6QH6QHa7co7cn7cnlCIilRA-w more crazy ideas here, but I haven´t tested it that much yet: extreme power even without stacks, boon remove, vulnerability, but no access to large amounts of might. As mentioned before, I think CI is superior to CS, and again, double mantra makes you an easy target in longer fights. Greatsword doesn´t work that well with CS, but there is no real alternative if you want to stop or at least slow down a running target

These builds are just examples I´ve tried yet. They do work quite good to help your group bursting down key targets and in duels as well. But all of them got some more or less serious problems or flaws, so I´m still looking for more ideas and concepts I could try. Let´s discuss!

Oh and btw, I want to thank all those great players here in the mesmer forum, I´m usually not writing much, but I read a LOT of threads here to get inspirations, new ideas and builds and that´s absolutly awesome.

Xaveri

I’ll have a much more grand reply when Im not bound to a cellphone and a toilet (TMI is for wussies!)

Ive actually been using 0/4/6/4/0 (A Chaos Maestro variant) for my WvW adventures. While not specifically a lockdown build, my key traits are Bountiful/Chaotic interruption for boonsharing and damage. I still feel CI is the best trait to pair with Staff/Sword-Focus and I use this build for solo/duo/small group roaming while tweaking on the fly (Medics Feedback over Vigorous Revelation for example) for zerg combat. I usually grab Blink/Decoy/MoResolve for utilities.

The problem Ive encountered is that there is food that massively reduces condition duration, which actually makes CI somewhat lackluster at times. Im still not sure if CS will be my solution to this, but Im thinking of experimenting with it.

Oh btw.. Focus (er.. and 30 Chaos for boon duration) LOVES Runes of the Pack. Perma swiftness!

Hey Chaos Archangel, Master of Lockdown-Inspiration (even without any points in this trait line^^), I´ve used a 0-20-30-20-0 build for group combat situations, especially if we got a guardian in our roaming group for condition cleanse. Traited staff and focus are impressive lockdown tools and this build can be extremly mobile and fun to play. It´s just a bit weak in actual fighting scenarios and has not much chasing/stopping power, but in a group setup, there are other classes to cover this weakness.

I’ve been dying to try my support chillruption variant (2/x/6/x/6 build w/BI and signet), but don’t have a group to run with.

But yeah I think the strongest lockdown build (even for roaming) I’m aware of is the now pretty standard 4/4/6 w/traveler’s.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAscRl0npRt1oxMNcrRiphcqqorM5CU6QtWA-TJRCwAZOFA93fAwTAAcZAA

This is a vulnerability-stacking lockdown build with halting strike. 40% cd reduction I-leap, sword daze, and phantasmal swordsman. 3-charge mantra of distraction for more vulnerability. 3-charge mantra of recovery with mender’s purity for excellent healing and condi removal.

If you swap out traveler’s for perplexity, swap out compounding power for confusion duration, and run some condi duration food, be prepared for for some QQ whispers.

I have also posted some similar builds here:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/H-Mantras-Lockdown-Builds-Brainstorming

Lockdown in PvP differs greatly from lockdown in WvW due to more variables =/
I learned this from running a variant of Chaos’ shatter lockdown.

This looks pretty interesting adelaide, IC+Blade Training is something I really like to use. The main problem for me is your lack of hard lockdown, you´re unable shut someone down for a few precious seconds to recharge your mantras or reposition yourself.

Schattenlied.4873:

This looks pretty interesting adelaide, IC+Blade Training is something I really like to use. The main problem for me is your lack of hard lockdown, you´re unable shut someone down for a few precious seconds to recharge your mantras or reposition yourself.

Use condi duration food for extra duration on immobilize. IC + bladetraining reduces cooldown on swap too, which immobilizes. You can also run scepter/sword + sword/pistol if you want an extra stun. Scepter3 synergizes pretty well with mantra of distraction i’ve found.

Sword main Hand and Pistol Off Hand are probably the safest Pick. Enemy won’t know ur role if u use Sword MH and Pistol Off Hand. Either Carry role or SP Lockdown Role can use these setup.

I basically run the last build, only slightly modified .

Thing is, I need Descent into Madness. Acquiring the -fallingdamage trait is the one limiting factor of all my builds, on all my chars.
Not only do I die relatively frequently without them (I’m that bad with edges, I need the skill in PvE if nothing else already :P ), I <3 the freedom and flexibility it gives me. There’s a great many spots in WvW where the ability to take a shortcut can be crucial, or you can fight a serious downhill battle, knocking and pulling enemies off ledges to drain their health while you get a free Chaos Storm in the process. Also, Chaos Storm when your group jumps off a tower into the enemies and then having Warriors land in that for Chaos Armour is just perfect.

So yeah, 30-20-10-10-0 for me. In zergs, I equip Null Field and switch Mender’s Purity to Medic’s Feedback because the latter is sort-of a must have around larger groups or any kind of object in WvW, IMO. Enemy catapults and ballistae especially love reflected stuff. :P

In PvE (I hate continuously changing points around), a very similar setup works rather well. Equip 3 Mantras and use the 4% damage per, go full Zerker, Phantasm damage and HP, in boss fights -damagetaken per illusion out, and traited CDs on Swords. Very nice combination. Not purest glass, but with the Mantras I got a lot of group support going which is always nicer than just being nothing but a number.

@ adelaide: Not using GS (or focus) makes thiefs so much harder ´cause you can´t stop them from resetting the fight. So I would rather use Sword/Focus and Scepter/Sword or Scepter/Pistol. This would free the rune slots for something like Runes of the Pack. On the other hand, focus is still bugged, which makes your original setup much better.

@Nevhie: I´ve tried all those builds with S/P and it´s incredibly strong with Chaotic and Bountiful Interruption. Might and bleed is stacking rapidly and you can assure the Duelist´s hits with your interrupts. I don´t like the cooldowns though, and Magic Bullet sometimes feels like a waste if you used it with CI.
Has anyone tested a true hybrid build with S/P and possibly GS yet? Every hybridish setup I´ve tried so far seemed to work better as a full power build with might stacks to get your condition damage on a solid level.

@ Carighan: Aren´t you hurting yourself if you use CS and Technobabble? I mean, close to 4 seconds daze is impressive, but a 50% chance to get only 1 second stun out of it?

In my experience though (I’ve only ran lockdown ever since I started WvW, although I’m still poor at it especially since I’m shatter lockdown spec x_x) lockdown build is soooooooo good in team fights and ganking but pretty difficult in 1vX/1v1 situations.

Schattenlied.4873:

@ adelaide: Not using GS (or focus) makes thiefs so much harder ´cause you can´t stop them from resetting the fight. So I would rather use Sword/Focus and Scepter/Sword or Scepter/Pistol. This would free the rune slots for something like Runes of the Pack. On the other hand, focus is still bugged, which makes your original setup much better.

@Nevhie: I´ve tried all those builds with S/P and it´s incredibly strong with Chaotic and Bountiful Interruption. Might and bleed is stacking rapidly and you can assure the Duelist´s hits with your interrupts. I don´t like the cooldowns though, and Magic Bullet sometimes feels like a waste if you used it with CI.
Has anyone tested a true hybrid build with S/P and possibly GS yet? Every hybridish setup I´ve tried so far seemed to work better as a full power build with might stacks to get your condition damage on a solid level.

@ Carighan: Aren´t you hurting yourself if you use CS and Technobabble? I mean, close to 4 seconds daze is impressive, but a 50% chance to get only 1 second stun out of it?

6/6/0/2/0. Semi-Hybrid (leaning power) 100% condi duration build (16 seconds of 5x Vuln on each daze.) Confouding Suggestions and Harmonious Mantras. Sword/Pistol + GS. Only works in WvW.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsaRlknpRt1oxMNcrNiphcqqkOwhBlO0pFA-T1hIABepFQHlkittenAIb/RXghq/E7TAIJlgkCAmhRA-w

Running 2 mantras is fine, although it may take a week or two to get used to (3 mantras, however I would definitely not recommend.) If you’re charging your heal mantra, keep in mind you can fire MoD to stop people from interrupting you mid-cast; you can also blink mid-cast as well (Decoy and Iswap will not work unfortunately.) Stealth from Decoy+Mass Invis will provide additional cover in most situations to recharge them.

If you’re trying to run more condi-heavy hybrid builds, GS is not a great choice. You will get better results by equipping scepter/torch instead.

Also, if a thief wants to reset a fight by running away they will. Knocking them out of shadow refuge won’t result in a kill 80% of the time; they have too many escape methods besides shadow refuge. Many mesmers run staff rather than GS because it’s an excellent baiting weapon against theives. Others prefer scepter because Scepter3 tracks through stealth and does more power damage than blurred frenzy, and the block is very nice too.

In my opinion 0-6-6-2-0 (I should start to use the new system as well^^) works better as a hybrid, for several reasons:
-CI profits a lot from your condition duration
-Chaotic Transference is a passive push to your condition damage
-Vulnerability stacking only helps your direct damage, while stacking might improves both the power-based and the condition-based damage
-Clone spam traits!
→http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsaRl0npMtNqxGNcrNyqxY6WO5lTtUp3I7AA-TlCEAB2t/oLATVKSUdFmUONlSGJOFAtpFAgHEwDHBAvUCGAAB4mtZbezADdoDdoDdodzbOzZOzZWKAYWGB-w

So I never thought of using 6-6-0-2-0 as a hybrid, but 100% condition duration definitly looks nice, so I´ll test it.

You´re absolutly right about the use of 2 mantras, in most situations, it does work perfectly well with all those blinks and stealth skills. It just feels extremly vulnerable to bursts, especially in a 1vs1 situation. I was even thinking about a build using either torch or staff/gs to compensate the recharge time with more stealth or Phase Retreat kiting. This might be unneccesarry, but I would at least feel better. :P

Schattenlied.4873:

@Nevhie: I´ve tried all those builds with S/P and it´s incredibly strong with Chaotic and Bountiful Interruption. Might and bleed is stacking rapidly and you can assure the Duelist´s hits with your interrupts. I don´t like the cooldowns though, and Magic Bullet sometimes feels like a waste if you used it with CI.
Has anyone tested a true hybrid build with S/P and possibly GS yet? Every hybridish setup I´ve tried so far seemed to work better as a full power build with might stacks to get your condition damage on a solid level.

S/P is not really Pure Interupt. Even without interupt Traits Stun Bullet + Sword leap can ensure 6s for ur enemy stay in position. That;s why i called it a safe pick.

Well u need to decide ur role first. SP or Carry. If SP u can go full Interupt Utilities coz u are not gonna the one who carry the Game. U just need to ensure ur Carry alive and keep in mind about stability.

I;m running 3pow, 6Prec, 2Vit, 3 Spec if u asked me about Hybrid Lockdown + Carry Role. To abuse Sword leap 3s evey 6s with 40% Condi Dura Food even thou i;m power based + my iZerker Criple @1,75s per Hit. It’s not that bad for 1v1 but compared to PU with 24/7prot of course my build is weaker. 6s to force enemy in same position pretty much enough for me. No need to add another interupt traits. Well i made my build for my teamplay. Weaker in 1v1 doesn’t bothered me much.

You can check my youtube Channel for the Vids. I made 2 with that build and currently i;m still using it until Anet nerf it.

Schattenlied.4873:

Hey Chaos Archangel, Master of Lockdown-Inspiration (even without any points in this trait line^^), I´ve used a 0-20-30-20-0 build for group combat situations, especially if we got a guardian in our roaming group for condition cleanse. Traited staff and focus are impressive lockdown tools and this build can be extremly mobile and fun to play. It´s just a bit weak in actual fighting scenarios and has not much chasing/stopping power, but in a group setup, there are other classes to cover this weakness.

Ha! That’s almost exactly the same build I play. And you’re sorta-kinda right about the stopping power.

Since Focus + 30 Chaos + Runes of the Pack = Perma-Swiftness, combined with a traited Blink and sword/focus pull-immob I think this build actually has as much stopping power as you’re gonna get without traiting Pistol or Greatsword. I also find I have a bit of an advantage as the average WvWer is usually not as difficult to fight as your average tPvPer. I rarely have problems with 2v1s and have had more than a few successful 3v1s (granted half of those had at least1 upleveled opponent)

The more I experiment in WvW the more I feel 6 points in Chaos seems to be the way to go. Not only does CI rock (and immobilize feels more valuable than longer dazes, though chain dazing is REAALLYYY fun) but the +Boon Duration/Toughness is really valuable. Combined with the near-necessity of Deceptive Evasion for the clone production (allows for some interesting plays that you couldn’t normally perform without) it feels like going 0/4/6/0/0 is necessary for the most optimal lockdown build.

… anndd I keep forgetting about the switch to Harmonious Mantras. x.x That makes something like 2/6/6/0/0 seem really lucrative.

Edit: You know, I could be going about this all wrong. I never really considered the potential of a condition lockdown build in WvW.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Edit: You know, I could be going about this all wrong. I never really considered the potential of a condition lockdown build in WvW.

I’ve tried that, works decent for roaming and excellent for camp flipping, but haven’t played it since iWarden has gotten worse.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/mesmer/Build-Vid-Chaotic-Perdition-WvW-PvP/first

Schattenlied.4873:

-CI profits a lot from your condition duration

Of which you have 20-30 percent less. Just saying. :P

Correct. But at least I got a trait to use it more effectivly (imho). :P

Just want to thank you all for this large amount of input! I´ll answer in detail tomorrow, I´m a bit too tired to express more complex thoughts in english atm, and you certainly don´t want to read stuff I´ve written on the fly.

@ Nevhie: I´ve watched your latest video (surprisingly it wasn´t not blocked here in germany due to copyright stuff O.o) and I think I understand your point much better now. What bothers me a bit is the unreliable nature of iLeap and its limited range. MoDistraction + CI on full range gives your team a huge advantage since most people don´t want to blow their cooldowns in the first seconds of the fight and they usually think they´re safe at this distance – that´s the moment my guildmate´s thief can land a few hard hits, for instance.
Talking about roles, I have to ensure a first kill for my team (immobilize+interrupt on heal, if possible), forcing our enemies on one place to ressurect their ally. At this moment my might stacks should´ve reached a significant level, so a full damage rotation (GS 2, 4, 3 → iLeap for more immobilize, BF + shatter) + d/d thief + fullzerk shatter mesmer should take out at least another target. Our group size and setup isn´t fixed though, so I have to adapt a lot. Lately, it has been much more solo/duo roaming due to lack of time and RL activities.

@ Chaos Archangel: I know what you mean, mobility is really impressive using this kind of build, but if you blow your curtain for swiftness, it won´t help you stop runners, iLeap is buggy as hell and so on. I mean, you can catch up with them, but then you´re lacking the damage to secure the kill. As I said, it´s a more group focussed (ha!) build to me, so I can easily send a d/d thief or warrior to fix this problem.
Regarding skill differences between tpvp and wvw, you´re definitly right with your observation. I´m not bad, winning most of my 1vs1 fights and quite some 1vs2, but I get obliterated when fighting top pvp players.

@ skcamow and condition lockdown: I´m not a friend of condition builds, so I never tried something like this, although I got a few ideas. Let´s see if I can find them somewhere in the depths of my computer…