Guild Wars 2

Post based off of game mechanics and game build as of Friday, May 9th, 2014 @ 6:00pm EST.
Version 1.2

Giving credit where it is due
Another mesmer convinced me about the potential of mantras and Reefer suggested I use the “Fire” sigils for more dps. Thanks you guys for your chats!

My preferred build variations:
Solo Arena
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAraRl0npEtFpxGNMrNipxgqyIdAJkRpLZ8FA-TJBFwACeCAy3foaZAAnCAA

Dueling
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAraRl0npEtFpxGNMrNipxgqyIdAJkRpLZ8FA-TJBFwACeCAG3foaZAAnCAA

PvE Single Target
http://gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAraRl0npEtFpxGNUrNipxgqyIdAJkRpLZ8FA-TxCFABNcAEC4UAI3+DA8EAKU9nrUCikyPBOQAppvhgDQgyHQgAAHA/23++b++7v/e5lXe5lXuf/93f/93A-e

PvE AoE Damage
http://en.gw2skills.net/editor/?fhAQNAsfWl0npEtFpxGNUrNipxgqyIdAJkRpLZ8FA-TRiFABLcAEgb/hBV/pKlgGp8DgnEwZ6bE4AEg8pEIAwBwv9tv/mv/+7vXe5lXe5l73f/93f/NA-e

Pictures are also attached.

If you want to read more (A LOT more) and perhaps engage in conversation based on my exposition, then see attached file “Xontoss_mantra_build.txt” in a text/word editor with ‘word wrap’ on (trust me, you want to do this).

If all you want to do is TROLL, then TROLL on.

In the famous words of Ryan Higa, “TEEHEE!”

I’ll be blunt. There’s nothing new, unique, or otherwise interesting about this build. It’s just the standard mantra nuker build that’s been around since launch. It does decent damage, but doesn’t have the burst of shatter, doesn’t have the sustained dps of phantasm, and paints an enormous target on yourself via charged mantras saying ’I’m incredibly squishy with absolutely no way to escape. Kill me first!!’.

Basically, when I see someone with mantras like these, I know multiple things.

1. You have no stunbreak
2. You’re incredibly squishy
3. You’re focused on nonshatter/phantasm damage

My normal response to a build such as this depends on the build I’m playing. If shatter, I’ll instakill you in a normal burst starting from stealth at 1200 range. If phantasm, I’ll put a swordsmen on you and watch it kill you in 2 hits. If conditions, I’ll probably just not bother much, since you aren’t a huge threat. In any event, it’s not an effective build. If a thief jumps on you, you’re dead. A hambow, dead. An evisc/stun warrior, dead. Condition bomb necro, dead. Minionmancer, instantly dead. It just doesn’t work well.

Sorry guy, wasn’t here for launch, so, I had to figure out how I wanted to play mantras after being convinced about their potential.

!TROLL!

And now I also know you don’t care to read what I really had to say based on your amended feedback.

Further more, this post is a social gesture in a social networking medium, and as such, I posted pictures to simply share with intent along the lines of the social environment, sorry if the act of sharing pictures was somehow “not liked” by you and potentially by anyone else coming to this post.

Man, TROLLS gonna TROLL… TROLL ON!!!

KingZmaN.6473:

Sorry guy, wasn’t here for launch, so, I had to figure how I wanted to play mantras after being convinced about their potential.

!TROLL!

And now I also know you don’t care to read what I really had to say based on your amended feedback.

Oh, I read it. I just don’t believe it’s even remotely accurate.

So, if you like playing a Mesmer and looking for a non-gimicky player-engaging fight style that some have labeled “do or die” (or something less flattering :-P ) that “as is” can remain decent against cheesy class builds, then, my mantra build you may want to try.

Remain decent against cheesy class builds? How exactly would you handle the situations that I laid out in my post? Lets look at them

Shatter Mesmer
I start at 1200 range in stealth. I blink next to you and do 15k-17k damage in less than 1 second. Then I cast a iZerker on what’s left of you. Unless you have superhuman reactions, you die.

Phantasm Mesmer
I start in stealth. I cast a duelist and a swordsman. Sometime in the next 15 seconds, you die, because the swordsman will do about 7k damage each hit, and the duelist not much less than that. You can try to kill them, but I’ll be stunning and immobing you, and since you have either 0 stunbreaks or 0 condition removals, you die.

Condition Mesmer
Yeah…this won’t go so well either. You’ll do some damage, you’ll get tagged with the whole smorgasbord of mesmer condie load and eventually die.

Glass Thief
Mug cnd backstab, with basilisk venom just for kicks. You’re dead.

Alternatively, shadowstep/stealth pistolwhip. You’re dead.

Alternatively, a couple of autos combined with flanking strike/larcenous strike. You have no stealths, and either no condition removal or no stunbreaks. You can’t escape the thief, and they evade too much to burn down since your build relies on mostly normal attacks instead of burst.

Hambow
Earthshaker hits you. Then you die. Alternatively pin down hits you, and you die (assuming the no condition removal but with stunbreak situation).

Stun-evisc warrior
You’ll get stunned eventually, eat an 8k evisc, and then die at some point.

Condition bomb necro
You only have 4 condition removals. These will be gone rapidly. Shatter builds can stand against necros like this because they can dodge in and out and land heavy burst combos. You don’t have that, you have to do sustained pressure, and the necro does it better, especially when you’re chilled, crippled, have weakness on you.

Minionmancer necro
These guys are fairly tanky, and they have incredible sustained damage. You don’t have enough heavy aoe to clean up the minions, and not enough defense to actually out-sustain them. You’ll die.

Can you beat people with this build? Sure. Can you beat good players? Probably not, unless you smack them with moa and they don’t think to use 5 and 2 to just run out of range until it expires…which would mean they’re not a good player.

Edit: Not sure why you thought I disliked the pictures. I actually didn’t even look at them, just read the .txt file and used the build link.

No guardian pyro? :’(

Meditation Guardian

I shield of wrath – JI to you while casting binding blade, wrath pops and you loose 10k health and are knocked down at my feet. I then proceed to 10k+whirlingwrath/smite condition you. You die.

Lets not forget rangers!

LB zerkerranger (whatever build it actually is)
I stand 1500 distance from you and rapid fire you for 15k before you get in range then autoattack you for 4-5k until you die.

=p

Wow, you’re a real class act.

Here you go guy…

Shatter Mesmer
I start at 1200 range in stealth. I blink next to you and do 15k-17k damage in less than 1 second. Then I cast a iZerker on what’s left of you. Unless you have superhuman reactions, you die.

• You forgot to mention that you have to produce clones for your shatter burst which is a dead give-away for “Hey, a mesmer is here!!!”, and if the intended target doesn’t do anything to avoid the shatter burst after seeing the clones produced, then they deserve the nukage. TROLL!

Phantasm Mesmer
I start in stealth. I cast a duelist and a swordsman. Sometime in the next 15 seconds, you die, because the swordsman will do about 7k damage each hit, and the duelist not much less than that. You can try to kill them, but I’ll be stunning and immobing you, and since you have either 0 stunbreaks or 0 condition removals, you die.

• If the intended target doesn’t do anything to avoid the phantasms (like, i dunno, evade twice), then they deserve the nukage. Furthermore, you speak as if you can stay in stealth without end and the intended target won’t be able to act, which, is simply not true. TROLL!

Condition Mesmer
Yeah…this won’t go so well either. You’ll do some damage, you’ll get tagged with the whole smorgasbord of mesmer condie load and eventually die.

• You talk like a condi mesmer is a necro with massive condi spam, and, like the intended target has no way to cleanse condis, and again, as if the intended target won’t be able to act, which all, is simply not true. TROLL!

Glass Thief
Mug cnd backstab, with basilisk venom just for kicks. You’re dead.

Alternatively, shadowstep/stealth pistolwhip. You’re dead.

Alternatively, a couple of autos combined with flanking strike/larcenous strike. You have no stealths, and either no condition removal or no stunbreaks. You can’t escape the thief, and they evade too much to burn down since your build relies on mostly normal attacks instead of burst.

• Wait for your glass thief to become visible, if blinded, cleanse when opportune, then interrupt during an exposing thief attack, stun, burst, glass thief dead unless their expecting such counters. TROLL!

Hambow
Earthshaker hits you. Then you die. Alternatively pin down hits you, and you die (assuming the no condition removal but with stunbreak situation).

• You continue to talk like the intended target can’t evade or do anything, which is simply not true, anyway, if you get hit by earthshaker and warrior not stabilized, interrupt their next offensive and heal while stunned, once you get out, you counter as needed, FURTHERMORE, if you truly ready my extra text file, then you would know the optional tactic I suggested against loss-of-control-of-your-toon pressure builds. TROLL!

Stun-evisc warrior
You’ll get stunned eventually, eat an 8k evisc, and then die at some point.

• What I described for “earthshaker” applies here as well. TROLL!

Condition bomb necro
You only have 4 condition removals. These will be gone rapidly. Shatter builds can stand against necros like this because they can dodge in and out and land heavy burst combos. You don’t have that, you have to do sustained pressure, and the necro does it better, especially when you’re chilled, crippled, have weakness on you.

• Wow… just wow… for necro, interrupt, burst, when they deathshroud, just ‘Polymorph Moa’ then whittle whatever health is left away. TROLL!

Minionmancer necro
These guys are fairly tanky, and they have incredible sustained damage. You don’t have enough heavy aoe to clean up the minions, and not enough defense to actually out-sustain them. You’ll die.

• If you truly read my extra text file, then you would know the optional tactic I suggested against a bunker build. TROLL!

Well, I knew I would get responses like this… but so fast! It’s shocking!!!

I probably would be more conversational and have less of an aggressive debate approach if you weren’t making so much effort to belittle what I had to share, but, a TROLL’s gonna TROLL… TROLL!!

Hey Natsu Dragneel,

See my bullets below…

No guardian pyro? :’(

Meditation Guardian

I shield of wrath – JI to you while casting binding blade, wrath pops and you loose 10k health and are knocked down at my feet. I then proceed to 10k+whirlingwrath/smite condition you. You die.

• Well, from the tool tip on “Binding Blade”, JL seems to be a condi immobi, which if so, can be cleansed, seemingly, stopping the series of chained events yielding that burst damage.

Lets not forget rangers!

LB zerkerranger (whatever build it actually is)
I stand 1500 distance from you and rapid fire you for 15k before you get in range then autoattack you for 4-5k until you die.

• Mantras have a range of 1200, so, while I’m getting in range I simply block, evade, evade, then counter as necessary. Now, will it always go as I see it in my mind, no, but, that’s what I usually/typically do and don’t feel to hurt from whatever ranger attack damage I sustained.

=p

Yeah, I don’t think you fully understand how fast things can kill you in this build. I’ll upload a couple screenshots. The first one is the cnd mug backstab thief combo (which I’ve been seeing more of lately for some reason). You can see the damage there. All all 22k damage was executed on a target golem: medium, which has more armor than you, and it occurred in less than 1.5 seconds….also known as the duration of basilisk venom, because you have no stunbreaks. Note that this combo starts from 1500 range.

Next up is a pistol whip combo. It did about 17k damage, starts at 1500 range, and took less than 1.5 seconds to execute.

Next up is the shatter combo I mentioned. You seem to think that you’ll see the clones appear, giving you time to avoid the burst. This is false. You can do a point blank mirror blade toss for instantaneous 3 hits of mirror blade + a dodge as you toss it for 2 clones and IP for a 3 clone instant shatter…with the prestige for some extra damage. I’m not actually even running a full damage build with this one. It did about 16k damage in roughly .5 seconds

You really can’t avoid these bursts. I’ve been having fun instakilling glassy classes with a shatter build in hotjoins like this, it’s quite fun and easy to do. Mantra mesmers and glass thieves are my favorite targets.

Edit: Binding blade can’t be cleansed.

Pyro’s aside, mantras are just a horrible mechanic, and should be deleted from the game and replaced with something more productive (one, maybe two mantras (heal being one of them) on your bar isnt to bad, but more than that….)

Wow guy, just wow.

Just so you know, you just presented damage scenarios implied as UNAVOIDABLE BY ANY CLASS (derived from the time-frames of the burst starting, class mechanic/tactics, and duration of the burst) and try to put it in context of my post… REALLY?!? REALLY?!?

Ok, I now deem you, CAPTAIN TROLL OF ALL TROLLS!!!!

Furthermore, once anyone who is attentive and seeks to actively PvP realizes they’re being attacked, unless their toon is unable to act, will do something of some nature to avoid/mitigate the negative scenario they find themselves in… gah man, I mean really, stop playing against target dummies… it shows in your dialogue.

!TROLL!

KingZmaN.6473:

Wow guy, just wow.

Just so you know, you just presented damage scenarios stated UNAVOIDABLE BY ANY CLASS and try to put it in context of my post… REALLY?!? REALLY?!?

Ok, I now deam you, CAPTAIN TROLL OF ALL TROLLS!!!!

Not really. The only one of those scenarios that will kill any glassy build is the mesmer one. Thief ones are reliant on stuns and lack of active defense. Since your build has no stunbreaks, you’ll just crumble. The mesmer one can be avoided with more passive defense and/or not painting an enormous target on your back.

See, while many classes might drop to these sort of combos, your build is specially designed to scream to the enemy team that you definitely will drop to that combo, and so they’ll do it to you over and over, because easy targets are good to kill.

The other thing that makes this build worse is that it’s just…not as useful. While any glassy build might drop to these combos, those glassy builds can also put out. Shatter mesmer can instakill people. Thieves can instakill people, etc etc. This build..can do reasonably high sustained damage. A good tradeoff? Not really.

I’d hate to break it to you, but I agree with Natsu and Pyro. This build has been around for quite some time, and there’s a reason you just don’t see it in tpvp. There are several main downsides to mantras:
1) During the charge (especially since it seems like you’re running no invis) you’re a massive target. If you keep getting interupted during the charge, you’re entire build loses, well, everything. And I guarantee you if you’re against a decent player and they see a mantra mesmer, they’ll be on you hard.
2) While it has some support, it requires the people to really bunched up for it to be effective. You lose your group support utility there.
3) Mantra’s paint a HUGE target on you. The icons don’t copy over to your clones, so they’ll know exactly where you are. Any thief or single target dps’er will see a charged mantra and just immediately know you’re easy prey. Since you have no stealth and no mobility, you’re a sitting duck.
4) You aren’t even using the “best” mantra, and that is the stability mantra. I mean, thats a double stun breaker AND shares some stability. I’d swap that out for the distraction or pain mantra.
5) You’re using scepter, and I can’t figure out why. It seems like you’re going for damage, but then not using sword. Scepter has very low direct damage. It has decent condi for the confusion and torment.

There is a reason a lot of people run either shatter, phantasm or condi based builds. Whether you run the typical shattercat or blackwater, or use some other variation, they almost always revolve around that. They’re just optimal. Some run a mantra, but not all mantras AND moa. In general, if both Natsu and Pyro question you on your build, don’t take it harshly, just learn. When I come up with a new build idea, I’ve been known to bounce it off of Pyro. Sometimes its a “sounds interesting”, sometimes its a “that’s totally awful!”

Keep thinking of new stuff, and try it out. But, they’re not trolling you, they’re telling you why this build doesn’t work well in tpvp/spvp. In general, most of the dps in tpvp now a days is either condi, or direct burst, and LOTS of CC, especially in NA tpvp. Account for that in your build.

You have basically 0 defenses, so I don’t know why you keep acting like you do. Also if a team decides to focus you, as they rightfully should, you have no way of preventing it from happening. I actually like the build, but I’m definitely not going to delude myself into thinking it’s good lol.

Hey Ross Biddle,

I understand where you’re coming from, Mantras don’t have any real “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” compared to what’s found in other classes, but on that note, I hope ANET continues to balance the other classes so all classes are stripped from overpowered mechanics that are nigh impossible to avoid.

Maybe then, mantras won’t seem so bad.

After all, if a game company starts giving all classes “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” mechanics rather than create a balance between all their classes, then the game the game company is behind is doomed for failure in terms of PvP.

So first you say others are trolling you for saying your build can’t avoid damage. Then you say all classes should be stripped of OP unavoidable damage…

How about just bring a stun break as others have recommended.

Pyroathiest, Handin, and Raunchy (and anyone else of similar dialogue)

All the things you say are valid in the context you present, but, is void of what I shared in my extra text file, as well as, in my previous posts on this topic.

I shared because others showed interest in my build.

I shared particulars about my toon because I wanted to be social.

If you guys are going to continue to ignore what I’ve already addressed, then, I’m just gonna stop responding to you and those of similar dialogue (as I’ve only entertained this farce as long as I was amused).

Like I said in the first post in this topic (if you cared to read it or even acknowledge it):
“If all you want to do is TROLL, then TROLL on.”

Take care.

KingZmaN.6473:

All the things you say are valid in the context you present, but, is void of what I shared in my extra text file, as well as, in my previous posts on this topic.

Your text file is 40% explaning why you took moa, 40% laying out skill rotations in pre-crafted fight scenarios, and 20% this is how and why you made the build.

Which part of that is supposed to explain how you avoid all the valid problems that we’ve brought up and you’ve failed to explain?

KingZmaN.6473:

Pyroathiest, Handin, and Raunchy (and anyone else of similar dialogue)

All the things you say are valid in the context you present, but, is void of what I shared in my extra text file, as well as, in my previous posts on this topic.

1) You claim that everyone who states anything against you’re build is a troll. We’re not. We’re giving you constructive criticism, and I think all of us have tried mantras at some point or another.

2) I read your .txt file. Everything we’ve stated is valid. What we’re saying is: even though your build has good sustain, because you’re glass, you’re too prone to CC and burst. Glass is NOT good for sustain, bottom line. No matter how good your sustain is, if you’re glass, one pistol whip from a thief and you’re almost dead.

3) Despite what your text file says, it doesn’t change the fact that your build has a few vital weaknesses. These weaknesses are inherit in using mantras. After you do your instacast ,you have to recharge. The moment a single dps’er notices you’re running mantras they will engage you, and it will be hard for you to recharge. You’re running no stun breaks, no mobility. This means you will be very slow when moving in combat.

We’re not engaging in a personal attack against you. We’ve looked at your build, at your text file, at your images, and are telling you the flaws in the build

KingZmaN.6473:

Hey Ross Biddle,

I understand where you’re coming from, Mantras don’t have any real “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” compared to what’s found in other classes, but on that note, I hope ANET continues to balance the other classes so all classes are stripped from overpowered mechanics that are nigh impossible to avoid.

Maybe then, mantras won’t seem so bad.

After all, if a game company starts giving all classes “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” mechanics rather than create a balance between all their classes, then the game the game company is behind is doomed for failure in terms of PvP.

I’m not sure what these “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” classes or builds are. I’ve been playing mesmer since release, and while I recognize there are burst classes, builds, and combo’s out there, I can’t say I’ve ever allowed myself to be subject to them. In effect, you can build to withstand them, and build to counter them. Which, in my reasoning, means they’re not gimmicky at all.

MY point about mantras being bad mechanically was that they function poorly for general play. The very design of them is counter intuitive to the structure of the human brain, especially in the incredibly aggressive, hostile, fast gameplay of GW2 PvP. This has been discussed many’a time on the forums, and probably just as much off the forums between peers. Mantras are terrible, and in fact, outside of a few “gimicky” instances (condi cleanse heal spam, balth rune burn procs, centaur rune swiftness- to name a few example) have no place in a competitive game.

Messed with a build almost exactly like this… last summer. Hate to break it to you, but this isn’t new in any way shape or form, just a change of runes and sigils since the update dropped, which actually makes almost no difference in the long run. You might beat up on some noobs, but some one who has played or taken on a Mesmer for an extended period of time at high level play will laugh and rofl-stomp you. As they easily dodge most of your abilities and crush you.

KingZmaN.6473:

If you want to … perhaps engage in conversation based on my exposition, then see attached file …

All I see is people attempting to engage in conversation based on your build as you asked and you shouting TROLL at them because you don’t like what they’re saying.

Credit to Pyro et al for remaining calm and conversational, after the first couple of posts in this thread I thought it was going to devolve pretty rapidly but it didn’t.

On topic: It’s my experience that this build CAN win 1v1s, but it doesn’t win any more 1v1s than all the more established meta-builds, and you’re relying on your opponent not being a good player. Good players will beat this build way more than they lose to it.

Of course if you enjoy the challenge of taking a sub-standard build and seeing how often you can win with it then more power to you. I just wish mantras were more interesting and more viable.

Good on you for experimenting and sharing your build though – that is what this place is for, though don’t be discouraged if people point out problems with it… that’s ALSO what this place is for

KingZmaN.6473:

Wow, you’re a real class act.

Here you go guy…

Shatter Mesmer
I start at 1200 range in stealth. I blink next to you and do 15k-17k damage in less than 1 second. Then I cast a iZerker on what’s left of you. Unless you have superhuman reactions, you die.

• You forgot to mention that you have to produce clones for your shatter burst which is a dead give-away for “Hey, a mesmer is here!!!”, and if the intended target doesn’t do anything to avoid the shatter burst after seeing the clones produced, then they deserve the nukage. TROLL!

Phantasm Mesmer
I start in stealth. I cast a duelist and a swordsman. Sometime in the next 15 seconds, you die, because the swordsman will do about 7k damage each hit, and the duelist not much less than that. You can try to kill them, but I’ll be stunning and immobing you, and since you have either 0 stunbreaks or 0 condition removals, you die.

• If the intended target doesn’t do anything to avoid the phantasms (like, i dunno, evade twice), then they deserve the nukage. Furthermore, you speak as if you can stay in stealth without end and the intended target won’t be able to act, which, is simply not true. TROLL!

Condition Mesmer
Yeah…this won’t go so well either. You’ll do some damage, you’ll get tagged with the whole smorgasbord of mesmer condie load and eventually die.

• You talk like a condi mesmer is a necro with massive condi spam, and, like the intended target has no way to cleanse condis, and again, as if the intended target won’t be able to act, which all, is simply not true. TROLL!

Glass Thief
Mug cnd backstab, with basilisk venom just for kicks. You’re dead.

Alternatively, shadowstep/stealth pistolwhip. You’re dead.

Alternatively, a couple of autos combined with flanking strike/larcenous strike. You have no stealths, and either no condition removal or no stunbreaks. You can’t escape the thief, and they evade too much to burn down since your build relies on mostly normal attacks instead of burst.

• Wait for your glass thief to become visible, if blinded, cleanse when opportune, then interrupt during an exposing thief attack, stun, burst, glass thief dead unless their expecting such counters. TROLL!

Hambow
Earthshaker hits you. Then you die. Alternatively pin down hits you, and you die (assuming the no condition removal but with stunbreak situation).

• You continue to talk like the intended target can’t evade or do anything, which is simply not true, anyway, if you get hit by earthshaker and warrior not stabilized, interrupt their next offensive and heal while stunned, once you get out, you counter as needed, FURTHERMORE, if you truly ready my extra text file, then you would know the optional tactic I suggested against loss-of-control-of-your-toon pressure builds. TROLL!

Stun-evisc warrior
You’ll get stunned eventually, eat an 8k evisc, and then die at some point.

• What I described for “earthshaker” applies here as well. TROLL!

Condition bomb necro
You only have 4 condition removals. These will be gone rapidly. Shatter builds can stand against necros like this because they can dodge in and out and land heavy burst combos. You don’t have that, you have to do sustained pressure, and the necro does it better, especially when you’re chilled, crippled, have weakness on you.

• Wow… just wow… for necro, interrupt, burst, when they deathshroud, just ‘Polymorph Moa’ then whittle whatever health is left away. TROLL!

Minionmancer necro
These guys are fairly tanky, and they have incredible sustained damage. You don’t have enough heavy aoe to clean up the minions, and not enough defense to actually out-sustain them. You’ll die.

• If you truly read my extra text file, then you would know the optional tactic I suggested against a bunker build. TROLL!

Well, I knew I would get responses like this… but so fast! It’s shocking!!!

I probably would be more conversational and have less of an aggressive debate approach if you weren’t making so much effort to belittle what I had to share, but, a TROLL’s gonna TROLL… TROLL!!

About glass thief,when you say “wait” for him to egt out of stealth,does it before the backstab or after?cause they usally going to stealth for backstabbing and when they do you only heartseeker away from dying.
In general,I agree with pyro,FULL mantra build is pretty much kitten.good for duels,if you know how to play it,but not for taking points or roaming in wvw.

Sandrox,

In my extra text file I’ve already explained what and what not my mantra build is for.

It’s a game where one of it’s core principles is diversity, you’re free to like whatever you wish for however you wish to play.

Hyung.6140:

KingZmaN.6473:

If you want to … perhaps engage in conversation based on my exposition, then see attached file …

All I see is people attempting to engage in conversation based on your build as you asked and you shouting TROLL at them because you don’t like what they’re saying.

In review of this topic, I’ve only shouted “TROLL!” to one person’s replies, Pyroathiest.4168.

Based on your remark here (with the understanding that you didn’t review posts to this topic well enough to see that I only shouted “TROLL!” to one person’s replies along with me conversing with others who were amicable) and any further reply posts you make will determine your intentions.

Hyung.6140:

Credit to Pyro et al for remaining calm and conversational, after the first couple of posts in this thread I thought it was going to devolve pretty rapidly but it didn’t.

On topic: It’s my experience that this build CAN win 1v1s, but it doesn’t win any more 1v1s than all the more established meta-builds, and you’re relying on your opponent not being a good player. Good players will beat this build way more than they lose to it.

Of course if you enjoy the challenge of taking a sub-standard build and seeing how often you can win with it then more power to you. I just wish mantras were more interesting and more viable.

Good on you for experimenting and sharing your build though – that is what this place is for, though don’t be discouraged if people point out problems with it… that’s ALSO what this place is for

I consider the immediately preceding remark constructive converse.

My mantra build isn’t “sub-standard”, just, one way to play in a game that propagates build diversity.

Some people look for class builds where it’s nearly impossible for anyone to escape their toon’s damage, I know one person like that personally, ultimately, people look for builds that fit how they want to play – I did the same and shared as such in my first post’s extra text file with the intent to benefit those who are inquisitive about potential/possible Mantra usage.

Kaamau.5341:

Messed with a build almost exactly like this… last summer. Hate to break it to you, but this isn’t new in any way shape or form, …

Already addressed the “Mantra’s ain’t new” retort in a previous post, should you have cared to read through this topic, you would’ve seen my previous post thus making your above remark unnecessary.

Kaamau.5341:

… just a change of runes and sigils since the update dropped, which actually makes almost no difference in the long run. You might beat up on some noobs, but some one who has played or taken on a Mesmer for an extended period of time at high level play will laugh and rofl-stomp you. As they easily dodge most of your abilities and crush you.

Well, what you say sounds valid, except, your account speaks as if the Mesmer is not as skilled/experienced as the opponents they’re facing.

Generally speaking, anyone who faces tactics they’ve never seen before has a more likely chance of losing, but, once they learn the tactics of their opponent (ie, gain experience) along with making the necessary adjustments the chance of loss is decreased, furthermore, continued exposure to the same opponent’s tactics with the necessary adjustments will soon lead to victories for a Mesmer as skilled as the opponent.

KingZmaN.6473:

My mantra build isn’t “sub-standard”, just, one way to play in a game that propagates build diversity.

It’s actually by definition substandard seeing as how mantra builds aren’t the standard for pvp mesmers at all. Also the build diversity in this game is stifled by the impossible to counter mechanics that some classes have. That and bugs on abilities.

I think your build could benefit more from MoC instead of MoP, since having a stun break is a great way to reduce pressure put on you. I really wish we had an elite mantra though.

Ross Biddle.2367:

KingZmaN.6473:

Hey Ross Biddle,

I understand where you’re coming from, Mantras don’t have any real “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” compared to what’s found in other classes, but on that note, I hope ANET continues to balance the other classes so all classes are stripped from overpowered mechanics that are nigh impossible to avoid.

Maybe then, mantras won’t seem so bad.

After all, if a game company starts giving all classes “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” mechanics rather than create a balance between all their classes, then the game the game company is behind is doomed for failure in terms of PvP.

I’m not sure what these “gimicky overpowered nigh unavoidable damage” classes or builds are. I’ve been playing mesmer since release, and while I recognize there are burst classes, builds, and combo’s out there, I can’t say I’ve ever allowed myself to be subject to them. In effect, you can build to withstand them, and build to counter them. Which, in my reasoning, means they’re not gimmicky at all.

MY point about mantras being bad mechanically was that they function poorly for general play. The very design of them is counter intuitive to the structure of the human brain, especially in the incredibly aggressive, hostile, fast gameplay of GW2 PvP. This has been discussed many’a time on the forums, and probably just as much off the forums between peers. Mantras are terrible, and in fact, outside of a few “gimicky” instances (condi cleanse heal spam, balth rune burn procs, centaur rune swiftness- to name a few example) have no place in a competitive game.

Holy cow!!

The most constructive reply post yet! Thanks!

I hear what you’re saying, and, if you managed not to be killed once by a cheesy PvP class build for the duration of your PvP career then that’s great, though, mantras aren’t as bad as they’re made out to be nor are they “counter intuitive to the structure of the human brain” , and, from what I’ve experienced can be used in competitive play.

Additionally, whatever build one decides use is the build they decide to use because it suits them, translating, just because mantra builds others have tried didn’t suit them doesn’t mean someone else won’t/can’t find a mantra build that does suit them.

Lastly, a team is a team, you have members who are designated to fulfill certain roles, all based on each team-member’s strengths and how the team as a whole meshes with each team-member’s strength, translating, if the team as a whole is exceptional and can win with all team-members using a healing based build then there’s nothing “terrible” about it.

So, you keep saying lots of stuff about how this build is good. Would you like to provide us with a video of you being good with it so we can learn from your obvious brilliance?

Handin.4032:

KingZmaN.6473:

Pyroathiest, Handin, and Raunchy (and anyone else of similar dialogue)

All the things you say are valid in the context you present, but, is void of what I shared in my extra text file, as well as, in my previous posts on this topic.

1) You claim that everyone who states anything against you’re build is a troll. We’re not. We’re giving you constructive criticism, and I think all of us have tried mantras at some point or another.

2) I read your .txt file. Everything we’ve stated is valid. What we’re saying is: even though your build has good sustain, because you’re glass, you’re too prone to CC and burst. Glass is NOT good for sustain, bottom line. No matter how good your sustain is, if you’re glass, one pistol whip from a thief and you’re almost dead.

3) Despite what your text file says, it doesn’t change the fact that your build has a few vital weaknesses. These weaknesses are inherit in using mantras. After you do your instacast ,you have to recharge. The moment a single dps’er notices you’re running mantras they will engage you, and it will be hard for you to recharge. You’re running no stun breaks, no mobility. This means you will be very slow when moving in combat.

We’re not engaging in a personal attack against you. We’ve looked at your build, at your text file, at your images, and are telling you the flaws in the build

You’re not saying anything that I haven’t already addressed, furthermore, your replies omit the existence of skill in the Mesmer using the mantra build.

Essentially, you’ve presumed that I started playing Mantra’s just recently and decided to create this topic for some intent other than to share.

KingZmaN.6473:

Essentially, you’ve presumed that I started playing Mantra’s just recently and decided to create this topic for some intent other than to share.

Actually, we’re presuming that you’ve only started pvping recently. Note that this isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, but it is a fact. Your lack of understanding of how binding blade functions betrays the fact that you’re a very new pvper. Being such, it’s understandable that you may not have encountered many skilled players yet when using this build.

What is this, Theory Wars? Just use the kittening build, kill stuff and make a kittening video and post it already.

Edit: just saw Pyro requested the same. Please make a video, any result would be entertaining after all this reading.

Pyroathiest.4168:

KingZmaN.6473:

All the things you say are valid in the context you present, but, is void of what I shared in my extra text file, as well as, in my previous posts on this topic.

Your text file is 40% explaning why you took moa, 40% laying out skill rotations in pre-crafted fight scenarios, and 20% this is how and why you made the build.

Which part of that is supposed to explain how you avoid all the valid problems that we’ve brought up and you’ve failed to explain?

From my text file:
…
Due to the near infinite amount of opponent scenarios, I will not list multiple opponent scenarios as one simple scenario is enough for any cognitive player to get the idea of how my mantra build works and how it can be applied in other scenarios.
…
Now, this is just a usually/typically scenario, and, does not try to account for skilled opponent scenarios nor will I try to account for skilled opponent scenarios as what is necessary to win for each skilled opponent scenario will vary.
…

It was never my intent to explain to anyone how to fight against other skilled opponents and the variety of PvP class builds, so, for the fact that you stress the point of my lack of explanation regarding how to “avoid all the valid problems that we’ve brought up and you’ve failed to explain?” reveals your deliberate provocative intent to take the topic I’ve shared out the scope within my topic was shared.

Furthermore, the whole point of any game is to encounter challenges and figure out how to beat them, and, anyone playing games who shares in this ideal would not want to “receive or be told play-by-play” before each encounter how to win each encounter ESPECIALLY in PvP where one wants to own their victory over their opponent.

To speak on, everything I shared in my extra text file is to provide insight as to why I find my mantra build beneficial so that one can obtain understanding, instead of, just putting my mantra build out there and leaving one to simply ponder on their own why I would use my mantra build.

Essentially Pyroathiest.4168, you seem intensely focused to “tear down” what I’ve shared, rather than, amicably converse about what I’ve shared, so likewise, for you and any others of your dialogue I will extend the same courtesy.

Pyroathiest.4168:

KingZmaN.6473:

Essentially, you’ve presumed that I started playing Mantra’s just recently and decided to create this topic for some intent other than to share.

Actually, we’re presuming that you’ve only started pvping recently. Note that this isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, but it is a fact. Your lack of understanding of how binding blade functions betrays the fact that you’re a very new pvper. Being such, it’s understandable that you may not have encountered many skilled players yet when using this build.

You simply presume to much, betraying whatever facade you show in these forums, thus, revealing your pompous pretentious arrogance, and as such, I have little respect for your words and words from those of your character.

KingZmaN.6473:

Pyroathiest.4168:

KingZmaN.6473:

Essentially, you’ve presumed that I started playing Mantra’s just recently and decided to create this topic for some intent other than to share.

Actually, we’re presuming that you’ve only started pvping recently. Note that this isn’t a bad thing in and of itself, but it is a fact. Your lack of understanding of how binding blade functions betrays the fact that you’re a very new pvper. Being such, it’s understandable that you may not have encountered many skilled players yet when using this build.

You simply presume to much, betraying whatever facade you show in these forums, thus, revealing your pompous pretentious arrogance, and as such, I have little respect for your words and words from those of your character.

I’m sorry, I couldn’t help but chuckle at this one.

Seriously though, not a single person in this thread thinks that this build is a good idea. That should tell you something. I may have been the first and loudest, but everyone here is on the same page. We’re not saying this build is bad because we dislike you for some odd reason, we’re saying it’s bad because of how it functions on its own merits.

Again, in a game the propagates diversity, what the mainstream thinks of anything is irrelevant so long as the individual likes what they have chosen.

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Neurophen.9738:

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Remarks void of the insight I’ve shared have little value, and, only serve the narrow-minded, which is fine, for the narrow-minded will be left to their devices, as, those who do read thoroughly through all that I’ve shared will at the least obtain my perspective.

KingZmaN.6473:

Neurophen.9738:

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Remarks void of the insight I’ve shared have little value, and, only serve the narrow-minded, which is fine, for the narrow-minded will be left to their devices, as, those who do read thoroughly through all that I’ve shared will at the least obtain my perspective.

You’re uh. You’re starting sound like you’re quoting scripture. Not sure what that means.

KingZmaN.6473:

Neurophen.9738:

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Remarks void of the insight I’ve shared have little value, and, only serve the narrow-minded, which is fine, for the narrow-minded will be left to their devices, as, those who do read thoroughly through all that I’ve shared will at the least obtain my perspective.

Congratulations good troll, you had us. Let’s try this on the other classboards it’ll be fun.

Raunchy.6891:

KingZmaN.6473:

My mantra build isn’t “sub-standard”, just, one way to play in a game that propagates build diversity.

It’s actually by definition substandard seeing as how mantra builds aren’t the standard for pvp mesmers at all. Also the build diversity in this game is stifled by the impossible to counter mechanics that some classes have. That and bugs on abilities. …

Well, in the context of what’s widely used or accepted, they yea, but in terms of output or usability, then it’s subject to each individual’s skill with any chosen build.

Raunchy.6891:

I think your build could benefit more from MoC instead of MoP, since having a stun break is a great way to reduce pressure put on you. …

Yea, I covered this in my extra text file as a variation to my build.

Raunchy.6891:

I really wish we had an elite mantra though.

Now that’s an interesting theory, I wonder what it would do :-)

Pyroathiest.4168:

KingZmaN.6473:

Neurophen.9738:

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Remarks void of the insight I’ve shared have little value, and, only serve the narrow-minded, which is fine, for the narrow-minded will be left to their devices, as, those who do read thoroughly through all that I’ve shared will at the least obtain my perspective.

You’re uh. You’re starting sound like you’re quoting scripture. Not sure what that means.

I can’t help others (or your) perception of my rhetorical style, as the same with, how others perceive me and the topic I created.

Neurophen.9738:

KingZmaN.6473:

Neurophen.9738:

There’s no stun breaks in that build, you’re going to have a bad time in sPvP with it. Sorry if that’s not what you want to hear.

Remarks void of the insight I’ve shared have little value, and, only serve the narrow-minded, which is fine, for the narrow-minded will be left to their devices, as, those who do read thoroughly through all that I’ve shared will at the least obtain my perspective.

Congratulations good troll, you had us. Let’s try this on the other classboards it’ll be fun.

Narrow-minded indeed.

4 mantras and Moa? I have never seen anyone run this seriously.
+1 for man mode to you.

Let’s hop over to the warrior boards and theory craft us a sPvP GS/Rifle build We can even take bulls rush, no one will suspect that!

Neurophen.9738:

Let’s hop over to the warrior boards and theory craft us a sPvP GS/Rifle build We can even take bulls rush, no one will suspect that!

You know that Rifle/GS build is pretty much reliable build?

On topic,tell me why I should bother reading your text file,while your build is by far the worst i’ve seen and im a mantra user.Even the mantras you have,are not good enough,I would replace power mantra with stability mantra to secure channeling other mantra.
Moa morph,dosn’t matter what is your excuses,it has long cd,and it is pretty much dodge-able,and ppl with right mind who did transformed,would know to press 2 and 5 to get away.You know there is a saying,to criticze others you should know how to accept other criticism.
Not gonna dwell it more than I already have,this thread is longish and have lots of crap in it just because you got offended by somone who only tried to help you.

Not in sPvP its not. Its funny in WvW mind you.

Look, I’ll make an offer: if you want to message me any time I’m in game, we can try to set up a 1v1. Then I can show you the flaws of the build.

You keep mentioning how insightful this build is. I just don’t see it, and I did read your text file. It seems like you’re so set on using something “different” that you’re essentially gimping yourself. You’re using the excuse that a mesmer with lots of skill will do well anyways. BUT, a very skilled mesmer, using a proven very useful build, will be even better. In tpvp you have to build for whats best for your team. If you die every engagement because you have no stun breakers, or are glass even though its a sustain build (which means you really should be running like knights or valk), what are you going to tell your team? “Sorry, I’m actually a skilled mesmer, I’m just running a build you wouldn’t understand?”. There is a reason people run condi clone death, or shatter, or phantasm builds. They’re reliable, well tested builds. I know quite a few veteran mesmers that wish mantras, or signets, or anything else would be more viable in tpvp, but right now they’re just not.

As stated before, it doesn’t matter what your text file says, it doesn’t matter how great you feel the build is. I’ve been there, where I was so sure I found the next great build (signets), but I was wrong. In the end, the weaknesses of your build are too great to counter any benefits.

KingZmaN.6473:

Kaamau.5341:

Messed with a build almost exactly like this… last summer. Hate to break it to you, but this isn’t new in any way shape or form, …

Already addressed the “Mantra’s ain’t new” retort in a previous post, should you have cared to read through this topic, you would’ve seen my previous post thus making your above remark unnecessary.

Kaamau.5341:

… just a change of runes and sigils since the update dropped, which actually makes almost no difference in the long run. You might beat up on some noobs, but some one who has played or taken on a Mesmer for an extended period of time at high level play will laugh and rofl-stomp you. As they easily dodge most of your abilities and crush you.

Well, what you say sounds valid, except, your account speaks as if the Mesmer is not as skilled/experienced as the opponents they’re facing.

Generally speaking, anyone who faces tactics they’ve never seen before has a more likely chance of losing, but, once they learn the tactics of their opponent (ie, gain experience) along with making the necessary adjustments the chance of loss is decreased, furthermore, continued exposure to the same opponent’s tactics with the necessary adjustments will soon lead to victories for a Mesmer as skilled as the opponent.

I did, just felt like it didn’t quite make it into your head.

Handin.4032:

Look, I’ll make an offer: if you want to message me any time I’m in game, we can try to set up a 1v1. Then I can show you the flaws of the build.

You keep mentioning how insightful this build is. I just don’t see it, and I did read your text file. It seems like you’re so set on using something “different” that you’re essentially gimping yourself. You’re using the excuse that a mesmer with lots of skill will do well anyways. BUT, a very skilled mesmer, using a proven very useful build, will be even better. In tpvp you have to build for whats best for your team. If you die every engagement because you have no stun breakers, or are glass even though its a sustain build (which means you really should be running like knights or valk), what are you going to tell your team? “Sorry, I’m actually a skilled mesmer, I’m just running a build you wouldn’t understand?”. There is a reason people run condi clone death, or shatter, or phantasm builds. They’re reliable, well tested builds. I know quite a few veteran mesmers that wish mantras, or signets, or anything else would be more viable in tpvp, but right now they’re just not.

As stated before, it doesn’t matter what your text file says, it doesn’t matter how great you feel the build is. I’ve been there, where I was so sure I found the next great build (signets), but I was wrong. In the end, the weaknesses of your build are too great to counter any benefits.

I did not come here to issue out challenges, furthermore, I already covered the “team-member” dynamic with:

KingZmaN.6473:

…
Lastly, a team is a team, you have members who are designated to fulfill certain roles, all based on each team-member’s strengths and how the team as a whole meshes with each team-member’s strength, translating, if the team as a whole is exceptional and can win with all team-members using a healing based build then there’s nothing “terrible” about it.

The point of this topic was to SHARE MY MANTRA BUILD AND PROVIDE INSIGHT AS TO WHY I PREFER TO USE MY MANTRA BUILD, and, not to convince others as to why my mantra build is better than using other builds.

Honestly, remarks wouldn’t be so misguided if people “took the time”/“exerted the effort” to actually understand what I’m sharing and my intentions for sharing.

Kaamau.5341:

…
I did, just felt like it didn’t quite make it into your head.

So then you acknowledge you were TROLLING by provoking a conversation piece that you knew was already addressed, furthermore, since this is the mantra build I am using to share in the context of “my mantra build” is not misspoken.