Just make it so CS only stuns on interrupt (otherwise, you get a longer-duration daze). That will get rid of the super-easy burst setups that mesmers have. Stealth openers still remain, but they’re on a much longer CD than MoD. And unless the mesmer is point blank, you can still see the mirror blade or ileap coming and dodge it.
I dislike this suggestion, mostly be because I don’t feel like every single lockdown-oriented trait shouldn’t simply be “on-interrupt.” I’d rather see CS moved up to compete with power block again.
And people are jumping to extremes left and right here. I think for most people this isn’t about good players vs bad players; this is about the average player. And this isn’t about being the underdog, though that WAS an allure, I highly doubt the majority of players picked Mesmer specifically because of that. (I personally don’t know of anyone who has)
Games in general are fun because they challenge you. Chess wouldn’t be interesting if one player had a queen that could move in figure 8s and wipe out anyone in her path. Gameshark is only cool for a little while before all your cheat codes start to get boring because the entire game is trivialized.
Shatter and lockdown feel like that right now. And no, it’s not because “of course if you’ve been playing mes so long you feel like a god” nor is it “Mesmer Stockholm syndrome” or whatever else you want to come up with to explaiin away the fact that a 1-week Mesmer can absolutely dominate most of their PvP games.
Helseth and the Abjured make money from this game, so yeah they play to win. The rest of us play because we enjoy the game and particularly enjoy the class/build we run. In truth we’re not playing to win, we’re playing for the thrill. And no, that doesn’t mean you have to jump to the entire opposite end of the spectrum with “is losing fun?”
The fact is there is a wide gray area between playing competitively and screwing around, and that’s where most of us stand. The majority of Mesmers are playing an overpowered build, and it’s really hard to justify playing anything else.
I’m in that wide gray area myself, and part of the fun for me is learning to adapt to new challenges, including facing the new hybrid lockdown/shatter builds.
Regarding your point about lockdown builds relying too much on “on interrupt traits,” keep in mind that CS also increases the duration of your dazes. So there’s value in the trait for a lockdown build even if you aren’t interrupting someone. If the value is too low, then you could consider increasing the daze duration increase at the cost of making the stun effect proc only on interrupts.
But as it stands, having an instant-cast 1.2k range AOE stuns is pretty crazy. Mesmer burst was always crazy, but it was balanced around the setup time. The guaranteed stun from CS nearly eliminates this setup requirement. My suggestion addresses your concerns about 1-week mesmers roflstomping everyone, because they won’t have the guaranteed stun anymore. But at higher levels of play, mesmers will still be able to use CS reactively to set up bursts.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think the idea is bad. In fact, it would make two of my favorite weapons -focus and staff- freakin glorious. I’m just personally not a fan of adding more “-on interrupt” traits unless it is a more universal benefit like “-reduce all skill cooldowns by 5s on interrupt (5s ICD)” I know, I know, wouldn’t be likely to happen as long as we have Duelist’s Discipline but still…
I’m actually not so much a fan of increasing the ICD anymore either. I’m really not sure if that’ll actually address the main problem beyond 1v1 encounters. To be honest, I don’t know what would be best for Confounding, but I’ve recently been leaning towards making it, in it’s current form, compete with Power Block or Shattered Concentration.
Just make it so CS only stuns on interrupt (otherwise, you get a longer-duration daze). That will get rid of the super-easy burst setups that mesmers have. Stealth openers still remain, but they’re on a much longer CD than MoD. And unless the mesmer is point blank, you can still see the mirror blade or ileap coming and dodge it.
I dislike this suggestion, mostly be because I don’t feel like every single lockdown-oriented trait shouldn’t simply be “on-interrupt.” I’d rather see CS moved up to compete with power block again.
And people are jumping to extremes left and right here. I think for most people this isn’t about good players vs bad players; this is about the average player. And this isn’t about being the underdog, though that WAS an allure, I highly doubt the majority of players picked Mesmer specifically because of that. (I personally don’t know of anyone who has)
Games in general are fun because they challenge you. Chess wouldn’t be interesting if one player had a queen that could move in figure 8s and wipe out anyone in her path. Gameshark is only cool for a little while before all your cheat codes start to get boring because the entire game is trivialized.
Shatter and lockdown feel like that right now. And no, it’s not because “of course if you’ve been playing mes so long you feel like a god” nor is it “Mesmer Stockholm syndrome” or whatever else you want to come up with to explaiin away the fact that a 1-week Mesmer can absolutely dominate most of their PvP games.
Helseth and the Abjured make money from this game, so yeah they play to win. The rest of us play because we enjoy the game and particularly enjoy the class/build we run. In truth we’re not playing to win, we’re playing for the thrill. And no, that doesn’t mean you have to jump to the entire opposite end of the spectrum with “is losing fun?”
The fact is there is a wide gray area between playing competitively and screwing around, and that’s where most of us stand. The majority of Mesmers are playing an overpowered build, and it’s really hard to justify playing anything else.
You don’t have to play in a tournament, or play for money, to play competitively. If you wan’t to trot out the “play for fun” or in this case “play for thrills” argument, then Helseth and Abjured are also getting a thrill out of it, albiet a richer, more deeper, more meaningful thrill. Which then begs the question as to if you’re “in truth playing for the thrill” like you think you are.
There is a place for “screwing around” within the framework of playing to win. But in the end it lends itself to playing to win.
Overpowered vs underpowered are also risk vs reward.
Remember turret engi? Low risk, high reward and everyone that didn’t know how to rotate around them came to the forums to complain about how -OVERPOWERED- it was? Then it got nerfed into the ground and useless because of all the bads complaining.
Mesmer prepatch was high risk, high reward and only taken on a handful of top tier teams because it was -UNDERPOWERED-.
Now that’s it’s gotten a buff and some traits work too well, PU and CS, it’s all of a sudden low risk, high reward and overpowered. Does Mesmer have good sustain? Yes, it does for once. As does ele, warr, guard, etc.
look at the mantra shatter build that’s popular right now. It’s traited for that sustain. The “burst” comes less from shatters and more from landing interupts with MoD which is what the build is built around. It has high health due to marauders, multiple small heals, two ports( not counting portal) and possibly no stealths. Oh and one invuln.
So realisticly… Mantra Mesmer carries hard. And if you know what it’s capable of, count the mantra charges, and dodge the mirror blade it’s game over for that Mesmer.
The shatter build that everyone is running with PU has no condi clear and is very CC’able. Easiest way to fix it is shave the duration of PU. But same principal as above applies. Dodge the gs, cc the Mesmer and either condi or burst them.
And after that’s all said and done remember that not all mesmers are running such builds. A lot are running various boon share builds, non PU shatter, non CS lockdown etc and aren’t relying on traits that need work. But to say that the Mesmer class as a whole is low risk now? I have a hard time believing that.
You don’t have to play in a tournament, or play for money, to play competitively. If you wan’t to trot out the “play for fun” or in this case “play for thrills” argument, then Helseth and Abjured are also getting a thrill out of it, albiet a richer, more deeper, more meaningful thrill. Which then begs the question as to if you’re “in truth playing for the thrill”.
There is a place for “screwing around” within the framework of playing to win. But in the end it lends itself to playing to win.
Yeah, but I’m saying the definition of “playing for fun” often gets translated as “defying the meta with whatever bad build I’m using and making self-created rules/defenses for my pride for why I lost.” And that’s really unfair.
Besides, it’s the same coin. I could say “If you want to trot out the ‘play to win’ ideal, then technically everyone who isn’t a troll is playing to win.” Hell, any sport or any “game” the entire goal is trying to win. But just because I’m trying to win in chess doesn’t mean I’m going to start watching competitive chess matches or learning the best setups. That also doesn’t mean I’m not giving it my best.
Overpowered vs underpowered are also risk vs reward.
Remember turret engi? Low risk, high reward and everyone that didn’t know how to rotate around them came to the forums to complain about how -OVERPOWERED- it was? Then it got nerfed into the ground and useless because of all the bads complaining.
Mesmer prepatch was high risk, high reward and only taken on a handful of top tier teams because it was -UNDERPOWERED-.
Now that’s it’s gotten a buff and some traits work too well, PU and CS, it’s all of a sudden low risk, high reward and overpowered. Does Mesmer have good sustain? Yes, it does for once. As does ele, warr, guard, etc.
look at the mantra shatter build that’s popular right now. It’s traited for that sustain. The “burst” comes less from shatters and more from landing interupts with MoD which is what the build is built around. It has high health due to marauders, multiple small heals, two ports( not counting portal) and possibly no stealths. Oh and one invuln.
So realisticly… Mantra Mesmer carries hard. And if you know what it’s capable of, count the mantra charges, and dodge the mirror blade it’s game over for that Mesmer.
The shatter build that everyone is running with PU has no condi clear and is very CC’able. Easiest way to fix it is shave the duration of PU. But same principal as above applies. Dodge the gs, cc the Mesmer and either condi or burst them.
And after that’s all said and done remember that not all mesmers are running such builds. A lot are running various boon share builds, non PU shatter, non CS lockdown etc and aren’t relying on traits that need work. But to say that the Mesmer class as a whole is low risk now? I have a hard time believing that.
Keep in mind that most of the devs are also pretty bad in PvP. =P So it may not be entirely because of baddies on the forums so much as it could also be baddies on the dev team.
And yeah, I agree. Mesmer as a whole isn’t OP or broken, only about 4-5 specific traits are. But I do understand why people who used to play shatter or lockdown are feeling so dissatisfied with the class.
Usually we play something with the understanding of if you like it then you would study and train. The only scope where playing for fun has any merit is when playing with someone really below your level ie playing kickball with kids. Some people still can’t tone it down and play to win no matter what. Some funny movies or stories on this premise. So the principal to win is always lurking somewhere. Playing for fun usually is the trump card for dismissing another persons greater ability, to down play the victory or not giving it merit because I was just “having fun”.
Well, I did a load of Maths in the MW damage thread and off the top of it we’re getting way too much vulnerability for very little. With just the mantra and mirror blade hitting you’re getting 14 stacks which is the equivalent to 21 stacks with fragility. It’s about 11% more damage modifier than the previous shatter build and more vulnerability compounds the issue.
Put simply, why do we get 5 for a daze and only 3 for an interrupt? Make it 2 and then 6 respectively.
On top of that master fencer is another issue, it needs the health threshold making 50% or maybe lower. It’s resulting in some 75% crit chance on most bursts after a relatively small amount of damage.
I will gladly hold the devs hands as they PvP if it means appropriate balancing is taking place. Maybe then they can use their experience plus whoever else’s and make good changes. Or we could just throw them into an arena against you and a GS and see who comes out on top :P
I understand where some of it is coming from. The rest… After having a lot of the same people say we need buffs turn around and say oh no Mesmer is broken I won’t play it must move to X class that isn’t in the meta. It just doesn’t make sense. If you like the class for the play style then don’t run the skills that obviously are the problem and run what makes you happy. End of story stop the presses.
Well, I did a load of Maths in the MW damage thread and off the top of it we’re getting way too much vulnerability for very little. With just the mantra and mirror blade hitting you’re getting 14 stacks which is the equivalent to 21 stacks with fragility. It’s about 11% more damage modifier than the previous shatter build and more vulnerability compounds the issue.
Put simply, why do we get 5 for a daze and only 3 for an interrupt? Make it 2 and then 6 respectively.
On top of that master fencer is another issue, it needs the health threshold making 50% or maybe lower. It’s resulting in some 75% crit chance on most bursts after a relatively small amount of damage.
How is master fencer even entering this. It has some serious competition and I highly doubt used in pvp. That trait is for pve I’m sure that side needs all the help it can get.
Master fencer is the fury when striking a foe below 75% trait. It essentially means your MW will be almost a full crit MW as well as follow up mind stab having a high chance of crit too.
What now? I’m most likely going to roll the underdog class. Play a non-SA thief till mesmers get nerfed again.
You do not really have to change profession if you do not like the Fotm. Keep playing mesmer with different builds. At least this is what I do. There are many viable builds atm, be it power or condition. Don’t tell me you cannot play anything without CS because otherwise there is something wrong with your post
…
IMO, you need a lot of playtime in order to have a deep understanding of the class, and incorporate it in your OWN playstyle. Not Just watching a video and imitating it.
Im not quite sure if I should cry or laugh about this statement.
Coming from a lot more complicated mmo’s and mobas, what you think is “deep understanding” is for me just a bit time spent theorycrafting and writing down rotations and counters.
Also, might I remind you guys of the old PU mesmer build? Or the old shatter build? It wasnt really that difficult to play, at all.
Well sometimes one confuses luck with actual skill or patterns. I dueled a week ago or so another Mesmer in WvW. First I thought that he was just lucky, because it was kinda close and he dodged 2 of my MoDs. Then we did some duels against each other. Like 10 duels or so. And I lost all of them. Some closer others not that close. And he consistently evaded most of my stuns. This let me to believe, that he anticipates my moves and adepts accordingly or his “standard rotation” simply matched mine perfectly and I failed to recognize it. Something along those lines.
What seemed like pure luck after one or two fights turned out to be a consistent pattern.
I agree that Mesmers trend to over estimate the difficulty required to master the profession to a certain degree. It also comes down to personal preferences and play style I guess.
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Chronomancy works, I am proof of it. Now stop asking me questions. Time must be preserved!
It used to be that if you were a good Mesmer you could destroy all but the best teef players. Yes, being hardcountered can suck, but it wasn’t like they were being destroyed by every class or anything.
Destroy all but the best thief players pre-patch? If that’s the case there would’ve been more Mesmers in the top tournaments, clearly that wasn’t the case.
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Mind Smack – Mesmer
It used to be that if you were a good Mesmer you could destroy all but the best teef players. Yes, being hardcountered can suck, but it wasn’t like they were being destroyed by every class or anything.
Destroy all but the best thief players pre-patch? If that’s the case there would’ve been more Mesmers in the top tournaments, clearly that wasn’t the case.
He means in 1on1s I’m sure , in which case he is partially correct although thief still had a huge advantage pre-patch but alot of good mesmers could dominate thieves of the same level. I would actually say most thief/mesmer duels on the same skill level were 50/50 much like a thief vs thief or mesmer v mesmer battle. Though this is 1on1s and very top tier PvP.
In team fights, it’s another story .. Pre-patch s/d thief was a hard counter to mesmers because of constant high dmg burst on the mesmer and mobility point to point. Mesmer in team fights with an enemy thief especially good (Toker / Caed / Sizer / Shad level) was a free kill essentially because of the countering ability.
Now it’s funny to watch thief get absolutely dominated by mesmer. The results pre-patch and post-patch are unbelievably different because mesmer got insanely stronger. Thieves actually got some buffs, nothing crazy but its just mesmer got much more buffed and dominates them now.
I think a duel between a Mesmer and a Thief of equal skill is a much more even match than some people are willing to admit. In fact, whether DP or SD, I’ve come across a lot of fantastic thieves post patch who have adapted to the new mesmer already.
I think a duel between a Mesmer and a Thief of equal skill is a much more even match than some people are willing to admit. In fact, whether DP or SD, I’ve come across a lot of fantastic thieves post patch who have adapted to the new mesmer already.
Agreed, before the June update, I always said: “I only kill bad thieves.”
As a reformed thief, I have to say: Comparing thief to any class right now isn’t a great matchup. Their burst is slightly less, and made less effective thanks to Rabid/Carrion seeing playing. There’s less condition removal in most builds now courtesy of the changes to Shadow’s Embrace. They’re much easier to keep CC’d, partly due to the aforementioned condition clearance and partly due to Stun-break being relatively limited. I’m not making an argument whether Mesmer is or has been OP/UP/Balanced, just making note that competition against Thief is not a solid litmus test at the moment.
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A pure matchup between a good thief and a good Mesmer is still very even, but the dynamic has changed so that thief doesn’t hardcounter Mesmer in fights anymore. Mesmer has gained access to more close range defense and can spec for either more sustain or drastically increased evasiveness/manouverability.
This doesn’t mean that Mesmer just dominates the thief vs Mesmer matchup. What it means is that Mesmer can still perform its role on a team even if a thief is chasing it. That’s the key of what made thieves a hardcounter prepatch. The pure matchup was still fairly balanced, but you had to devote your entire attention to not getting eaten by them. Now you can avoid the thief while still providing the heavy damage that you’re on the team to do.
I would actually say most thief/mesmer duels on the same skill level were 50/50 much like a thief vs thief or mesmer v mesmer battle. Though this is 1on1s and very top tier PvP.
You are wrong.
It is well known that starting from some level of experience thief statistically beats mesmer of equal skill even 1vs1 (prepatch I mean). It’s is from my personal and mesm community experience (afaik) . If you want refer to ESL authorities – Helseth, Supercutie stated the same. E. g. Supercutie guide: http://bit.ly/SupcutieGuide , p 3.10 – Class Specific Matchups.
I would actually say most thief/mesmer duels on the same skill level were 50/50 much like a thief vs thief or mesmer v mesmer battle. Though this is 1on1s and very top tier PvP.
You are wrong.
It is well known that starting from some level of experience thief statistically beats mesmer of equal skill even 1vs1 (prepatch I mean). It’s is from my personal and mesm community experience (afaik) . If you want refer to ESL authorities – Helseth, Supercutie stated the same. E. g. Supercutie guide: http://bit.ly/SupcutieGuide , p 3.10 – Class Specific Matchups.
Supcutie also beat toker alot when they dueled for practice and Kyra has destroyed all top tier thieves as well in 1on1s if you’re talking about meta build vs meta build (s/d vs shatter or d/p vs shatter) as I saw it in person in private arenas and in KOTH but in teams Supcutie himself even went thief (sometimes condi ranger) in tourneys because mesmer was no use in team scenarios because of Toker/Caed and other good thieves on other teams hard counter to mesmer in team situation.
In 1v1s though it’s much more balanced between the 2. This was pre-patch , supcutie or kyra would wreck those guys even in team situations now. Thief has mobility and quick prodding in team fights still though and still has arguably the best ressing potential though besides a traited ranger with S&R or guardian.
Don’t know about Kyra, but what win/loss ratio Supercutie had against toker on long streak?
They were usually 50/50 actually.. I didn’t keep count, but I’ve seen Toker lose alot and supcutie lose alot. I don’t really care actually though either way it doesn’t discount the fact thief had a big advantage over mesmer in both 1on1s and team fights, just alot more in team scenarios.
