Guild Wars 2

After the announcements for the changes coming to Mesmers I was super hyped. I had the mindset at the time that the buffs we would get would make us up to par class, with strong game changing capabilities which did in fact happen. For the first two weeks I fully enjoyed the CI-Shatter builds, and the large survivability PU gave me during GvGs.

This week things started to change. When I began to duel more and more mesmers, I woke up to the fact that fights became more luck based. Whoever burned out on cooldowns, or got that Mantra of distraction off was most likely to win. It was even heart breaking at times to lose to other mesmer players who have less than half the hours spent in the class.

Now, before I get a bunch of casuals complaining about “it was a well deserved buff”. I’d like to say, im not here to complain. I’m just here to say I PERSONALLY liked mesmers better when they were a bit weaker. Where the room for error was borderline none, and the time spent learning the class was clearly distinguishable through duels.

What now? I’m most likely going to roll the underdog class. Play a non-SA thief till mesmers get nerfed again.

TLDR; The shatter management, and cooldown management where much more enjoyable than the mash n’ bash we have now. <3

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

Photoloss.4817:

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

IMO, you need a lot of playtime in order to have a deep understanding of the class, and incorporate it in your OWN playstyle. Not Just watching a video and imitating it.

Photoloss.4817:

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

Hes saying that you don’t even really have to learn Mesmer any more after a certain point. Just learn to oneshot Flavor-of-the-Month burst people and call it a day, you’re esports.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Photoloss.4817:

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

Hes saying that you don’t even really have to learn Mesmer any more after a certain point. Just learn to oneshot Flavor-of-the-Month burst people and call it a day, you’re esports.

Yeah, but if a 1shot wonder that picked up Mesmer yesterday tries to do that to me, I’ll see it coming a mile away and dodge/block/invuln/counter burst it. Saying that fights have been reduced to nothing but luck is absurd, and implying that unskilled mesmers are able to easily beat skilled mesmers (implied by the comment about hours spent on the class) is nothing more than denying the reality that maybe these newer mesmers have a better grasp of playing than you do, hence them winning.

Edit: To elaborate…

If I lose a fight/duel/whatever, I don’t come to the forums and make a complaint post about how Mesmer is just pure luck based bursting and it was so much better before all these buffs happened.

Instead, I analyze why I lost, how I could do better, and try again. That’s how you grow as a player; by losing, learning, and improving. Blaming your losses on some other factor (because lets be honest here, that’s what this post is really about) is just dodging responsibility that could instead be seized and used to improve yourself.

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Photoloss.4817:

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

Hes saying that you don’t even really have to learn Mesmer any more after a certain point. Just learn to oneshot Flavor-of-the-Month burst people and call it a day, you’re esports.

Yeah, but if a 1shot wonder that picked up Mesmer yesterday tries to do that to me, I’ll see it coming a mile away and dodge/block/invuln/counter burst it. Saying that fights have been reduced to nothing but luck is absurd, and implying that unskilled mesmers are able to easily beat skilled mesmers (implied by the comment about hours spent on the class) is nothing more than denying the reality that maybe these newer mesmers have a better grasp of playing than you do, hence them winning.

It is true tho pyro, new mesmers rekt me. I just may be bad though. haha.

Fay.2357:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Photoloss.4817:

Mesmer always had tons of instant-cast skills and long cooldowns. Are you sure it’s not just the global power creep allowing one such “lucky” hit to end the battle before the opponent gets theirs?

Also, don’t argue any kind of balance based on duels, even in a mirror match of the supposed “duelist” class.

And against opponents of equal “effective skill” (not directly correlated to total playtime btw!) luck should be the only deciding factor in a fair fight.

Hes saying that you don’t even really have to learn Mesmer any more after a certain point. Just learn to oneshot Flavor-of-the-Month burst people and call it a day, you’re esports.

Yeah, but if a 1shot wonder that picked up Mesmer yesterday tries to do that to me, I’ll see it coming a mile away and dodge/block/invuln/counter burst it. Saying that fights have been reduced to nothing but luck is absurd, and implying that unskilled mesmers are able to easily beat skilled mesmers (implied by the comment about hours spent on the class) is nothing more than denying the reality that maybe these newer mesmers have a better grasp of playing than you do, hence them winning.

If you saw it coming a mile away.. he wasn’t doing it right. =P

And he didn’t say matches are entirely luck-based.. But that there is a much higher element of luck to fights than before.. Which is sort-of true.

My personal issue isn’t with 1v1s. When all is fair, you have the same cooldowns and opportunities as the opponent, so it’s not really luck at all (except crits and all that but even still..) but the things some Mesmers are pulling off in team battles and full matches is kind of sickening. They don’t know rotation, they don’t know how to help the team, they don’t even know to cleave.. Just roflburst and stealth.

I’ve seen so many people just.. spam mantra. They don’t even know why they’re spamming it but they know it stuns. I throw up in my mouth a little each time, because they’re still successful with it.

The long and short of it is that it’s become very easy for new mesmers to be very effective. In essence, this patch lowered the skill floor for mesmer in general, which is unfortunate.

Now what veteran mesmers need to do is learn to adapt to this new influx and find ways to counter. It’s only been a month after all and already I’m seeing people learn to counter it. I know this can be easier said than done, but it isn’t just in play style; it’s analyzing different tactics and most of all, choosing a build that helps you perform the best.

skcamow.3527:

The long and short of it is that it’s become very easy for new mesmers to be very effective. In essence, this patch lowered the skill floor for mesmer in general, which is unfortunate.

Now what veteran mesmers need to do is learn to adapt to this new influx and find ways to counter. It’s only been a month after all and already I’m seeing people learn to counter it. I know this can be easier said than done, but it isn’t just in play style; it’s analyzing different tactics and most of all, choosing a build that helps you perform the best.

QFT. The FotM mesmers stick out like sore thumbs. Veteran mesmers stab like jagged knives (and thus replace thieves).

The FotMers are coming in two forms, I’m noticing. PU with MoD and GS, or Ross’s Dom, Dueling, Inspiration Mantra build. As a Mesmer, there are definite strategies to dealing with both. Just last night I came across one of those Mantra Mesmers and a CI Mesmer. I was toying with PU/Powerblock and I had plenty of counterplay without relying on stealth for defense. The key is to get them to burn their cooldowns, then show them how to burst.

Or you go PU condi and puke confusion all over them.

Tealots.6095:

Or you go PU condi and puke confusion all over them.

I’d like to request that the animation for confusion be changed from the pink spiral around their head to just having the character continuously throwing up. If that happened, I’d probably never play anything but confusion condi builds.

That’s not the problem though. 1v1s and duels aren’t the issue… At least not for Mesmer vs Mesmer. (Try and tell that advice to a necro.)

Of course you can counter em if you see them coming and have all your skills off cooldown. Hell, as Mesmers we can 1200r blink right out of the initial attack or stealth, distort, ec. Other classes aren’t as fortunate and in teamfights any halfwit Mesmer is a nightmare.

Or you go PU condi and puke confusion all over them.

I started mesmer before all the hype came along, wanted a ranged char besides my ranger and ele and i wanted a condition build.

I see all that hype about the pu-burst-shatter-whatever crap and i’m just thinking : "are those FotM players actually having fun ?
I’v been building my mesmer the way i want it, and i get beaten to a pulp to a FotM mesmer in PvP, but i wouldn’t change my toon for anything in the world. Seeing enemies getting melted by bleeds-burns-confusions and anything i can throw at them is kinda fun to watch.

I was planning on possibly swapping over to Mesmer main if this patch worked out well…but it worked out too well. It used to be that if you were a good Mesmer you could destroy all but the best teef players. Yes, being hardcountered can suck, but it wasn’t like they were being destroyed by every class or anything.

I played just one evening as Mesmer post patch, that was all it took for me to lose interest in playing it. Even when playing sloppy I was still effective. I was moderately competent before, but that night I felt like a god. The appeal is gone for me, I felt rewarded when i did well as a Mesmer before, now I feel like the kills are being handed to me.

BurrTheKing.8571:

I was planning on possibly swapping over to Mesmer main if this patch worked out well…but it worked out too well. It used to be that if you were a good Mesmer you could destroy all but the best teef players. Yes, being hardcountered can suck, but it wasn’t like they were being destroyed by every class or anything.

I played just one evening as Mesmer post patch, that was all it took for me to lose interest in playing it. Even when playing sloppy I was still effective. I was moderately competent before, but that night I felt like a god. The appeal is gone for me, I felt rewarded when i did well as a Mesmer before, now I feel like the kills are being handed to me.

So why not strive for even more success?
Are you on Helseth’s level yet?

If it’s so easy, why not try for a higher tier of play?

Why do so many people come in here complaining about how easy it is, when there’s clearly plenty of room between them and the upper tiers??

Also consider that it could be due to your own perception. Obviously if prior to the patch you were getting hardcountered or had to work significantly harder to kill someone then all of a sudden you only have to work as hard as other classes, it’ll feel like you don’t have to try nearly as hard to be successful because you got used to being an underdog. A good analogy would be suppose you went your whole life wearing weighted shoes that slowed you down. After a while you probably wouldn’t even notice them anymore. But then one day, you take off those weighted shoes and realized everything is a whole lot easier than before, so easy that things that were previously much more difficult seem incredibly easy. Of course this is all objective and not very precise, but the point still stands.

Prior to the patch, there really wasn’t much to fear from your average mesmer. Their bursts were predictable and most classes could eat a full burst to the face and recover, especially warriors. My experience fighting average to above average warriors in SPvP was that I needed to land 2 consecutive full bursts to seal the deal. If either was messed up, chances are I was wasting my time and I would be of more use elsewhere. It’s not that they could kill me easily(since I usually ran staff so kiting was natural), it’s just that if the fight takes longer than say 45 seconds on point, I’d be much better off just leaving him to cap and +1ing another fight.

Tealots.6095:

skcamow.3527:

The long and short of it is that it’s become very easy for new mesmers to be very effective. In essence, this patch lowered the skill floor for mesmer in general, which is unfortunate.

Now what veteran mesmers need to do is learn to adapt to this new influx and find ways to counter. It’s only been a month after all and already I’m seeing people learn to counter it. I know this can be easier said than done, but it isn’t just in play style; it’s analyzing different tactics and most of all, choosing a build that helps you perform the best.

QFT. The FotM mesmers stick out like sore thumbs. Veteran mesmers stab like jagged knives (and thus replace thieves).

The FotMers are coming in two forms, I’m noticing. PU with MoD and GS, or Ross’s Dom, Dueling, Inspiration Mantra build. As a Mesmer, there are definite strategies to dealing with both. Just last night I came across one of those Mantra Mesmers and a CI Mesmer. I was toying with PU/Powerblock and I had plenty of counterplay without relying on stealth for defense. The key is to get them to burn their cooldowns, then show them how to burst.

Or you go PU condi and puke confusion all over them.

Yes, and since I’ve been playing this build since last November, there’s a HUGE gap between these new/FOTM Mesmers and where someone like me is at. Luck doesn’t even come into it, it’s just not going to be enough. That’s why encounters like this are staple
https://youtu.be/1S61F2Io9l0?t=35

Honestly, the scariest things out there for Mesmers are warriors and guardians who’re adapting, and good thieves (albiet they’re very rare).

As for the bad rotations comment ChaosA made, this isn’t limited to Mesmers. In just about every single match I’ve played for weeks now, both teams have been made up of marauding lunatics who know no rotations, run to every point that needs capping, and fight everywhere they can which more often than not is off point. It’s like “holding a point” isnt a concept at all.

Necrotize.2974:

Also consider that it could be due to your own perception. Obviously if prior to the patch you were getting hardcountered or had to work significantly harder to kill someone then all of a sudden you only have to work as hard as other classes, it’ll feel like you don’t have to try nearly as hard to be successful because you got used to being an underdog. A good analogy would be suppose you went your whole life wearing weighted shoes that slowed you down. After a while you probably wouldn’t even notice them anymore. But then one day, you take off those weighted shoes and realized everything is a whole lot easier than before, so easy that things that were previously much more difficult seem incredibly easy. Of course this is all objective and not very precise, but the point still stands.

Prior to the patch, there really wasn’t much to fear from your average mesmer. Their bursts were predictable and most classes could eat a full burst to the face and recover, especially warriors. My experience fighting average to above average warriors in SPvP was that I needed to land 2 consecutive full bursts to seal the deal. If either was messed up, chances are I was wasting my time and I would be of more use elsewhere. It’s not that they could kill me easily(since I usually ran staff so kiting was natural), it’s just that if the fight takes longer than say 45 seconds on point, I’d be much better off just leaving him to cap and +1ing another fight.

I’ll add to this that in the pre-patch days, other classes outright laughed at the ease of fighting Mesmers. Also if you brought a Mesmer to a ranked match you were instantly flagged as a liability, dead weight, or questionable at best. You had to prove yourself by the end of the match with the top score on top of a win before you’d get the tick of approval. If there were two Mesmers in the team, people would write off the match.

This was only a few weeks ago people. Not long enough that you should have forgotten.

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid. Lets not forget all those cleaves. Duel mesmer as how the warrior with a diff class (except ele) had done it (taking out clones) and let us see how you’ll fare.

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

Yup.

I asked the guy to take a vid of a full match. I want to see it play in a proper environment.

Ross Biddle.2367:

As for the bad rotations comment ChaosA made, this isn’t limited to Mesmers. In just about every single match I’ve played for weeks now, both teams have been made up of marauding lunatics who know no rotations, run to every point that needs capping, and fight everywhere they can which more often than not is off point. It’s like “holding a point” isnt a concept at all.

Good, then it’s not just me! ;-) I’ve been getting really bad teams lately too. I guess an influx of new players, or people switching professions/builds and totally forgetting about how to actually play the game?

AlphatheWhite.9351:

BurrTheKing.8571:

I was planning on possibly swapping over to Mesmer main if this patch worked out well…but it worked out too well. It used to be that if you were a good Mesmer you could destroy all but the best teef players. Yes, being hardcountered can suck, but it wasn’t like they were being destroyed by every class or anything.

I played just one evening as Mesmer post patch, that was all it took for me to lose interest in playing it. Even when playing sloppy I was still effective. I was moderately competent before, but that night I felt like a god. The appeal is gone for me, I felt rewarded when i did well as a Mesmer before, now I feel like the kills are being handed to me.

So why not strive for even more success?
Are you on Helseth’s level yet?

If it’s so easy, why not try for a higher tier of play?

Why do so many people come in here complaining about how easy it is, when there’s clearly plenty of room between them and the upper tiers??

Why bother? I have no desire to play this game competitively when that level of play is so poorly supported.

I have and will continue to play to make fun builds. I love gimmicks or out there builds. Warrior offers a lot of options for that. Mesmer on the other hand…the way they’ve done traits there’s not much room for experimentation. I’d much rather master and be good on a so-so class (which Warrior is once people learn to counter Rampage) than master a class that is a victim of power creep.

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

True warrior is in a better place when it comes to taking down clones, but other classes with fast autoattacks or many aoes could probably accomplish something similar. Guardians GS, Thief’s dagger auto, staff ele and I suppose D/D ele, engineers with mortar and grenades, LB ranger’s Barrage is pretty much an anti-shatter field, etc. Obviously not every class can accomplish this and not every build can either, but it’s still a viable counter strategy. Way too often when I stealth mid fight with decoy, people just stand there on point waiting for me while clones tick away. Most are good enough to target phantasms when I’m in stealth, but too many people still have the idea to completely ignore clones ingrained in their heads.

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

I am so sick of this play to win cliche, it like a trump card to avoid all reasoning and disregard aspects that matter.

So where was this play to win when thieves hard countered mesmers? So?

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

I am so sick of this play to win cliche, it like a trump card to avoid all reasoning and disregard aspects that matter.

So where was this play to win when thieves hard countered mesmers? So?

That’s why I ran phantrupt so as to give me a counter and an edge to thieves. Remember it was only power shatter mesmer that was hard countered by thieves. In wvw on release I ran rabid confusion shatter, scepter/torch sword/focus to counter the prevelant domination of thieves. Later hybrid to cover my basis.

Playing to win IS an exercise in reasoning. The only thing it trumps is scrub thinking. You can’t dismiss that warrior build simply because he was successful, and because other builds on other classes are not. There’s no reason in that.

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

I am so sick of this play to win cliche, it like a trump card to avoid all reasoning and disregard aspects that matter.

So where was this play to win when thieves hard countered mesmers? So?

That’s why I ran phantrupt so as to give me a counter and an edge to thieves. Remember it was only power shatter mesmer that was hard countered by thieves. In wvw on release I ran rabid confusion shatter, scepter/torch sword/focus to counter the prevelant domination of thieves. Later hybrid to cover my basis.

Playing to win IS an exercise in reasoning. The only thing it trumps is scrub thinking. You can’t dismiss that warrior build simply because he was successful, and because other builds on other classes are not. There’s no reason in that.

Oh but there is, Comparing classes with different mechanics, different stats, etc is absurd. Then if you say that, then all mesmers have equal chances of killing thieves pre patch?

The warrior build might be succesful, but there is no scrub mentality in this one, warriors have different tools to work with, even a total noob knows that. So saying Playing to win is all that matters is complete and utter BS.

So if mesmers had heavy armor and higher hp like the warrior, would you still believe that thieves will totally hard counter mesmers? If mesmers had healing signet that heals for 300 hp every second with no healing power, would thieves still counter mesmer?

I do not think so.

Also you are talking about SOLO QUE. The game is not balanced around solo q.

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

I am so sick of this play to win cliche, it like a trump card to avoid all reasoning and disregard aspects that matter.

So where was this play to win when thieves hard countered mesmers? So?

That’s why I ran phantrupt so as to give me a counter and an edge to thieves. Remember it was only power shatter mesmer that was hard countered by thieves. In wvw on release I ran rabid confusion shatter, scepter/torch sword/focus to counter the prevelant domination of thieves. Later hybrid to cover my basis.

Playing to win IS an exercise in reasoning. The only thing it trumps is scrub thinking. You can’t dismiss that warrior build simply because he was successful, and because other builds on other classes are not. There’s no reason in that.

Oh but there is, Comparing classes with different mechanics, different stats, etc is absurd. Then if you say that, then all mesmers have equal chances of killing thieves pre patch?

The warrior build might be succesful, but there is no scrub mentality in this one, warriors have different tools to work with, even a total noob knows that. So saying Playing to win is all that matters is complete and utter BS.

So if mesmers had heavy armor and higher hp like the warrior, would you still believe that thieves will totally hard counter mesmers? If mesmers had healing signet that heals for 300 hp every second with no healing power, would thieves still counter mesmer?

I do not think so.

Also you are talking about SOLO QUE. The game is not balanced around solo q.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with your argument.

As an aside, riddle me this: If you’re not playing to win, what are you doing?

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Ross Biddle.2367:

StickerHappy.8052:

Necrotize.2974:

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

It is a duel so things should be taken with a grain of salt, but here’s what I saw:

That is an excellent example of how you should combat a shatter mesmer. More often than not, the warrior destroyed illusions far before they became an issue, sometimes even before they had a chance to attack. By destroying clones quickly, you force the mesmer to burst on your terms, not theirs. If the mesmer goes into stealth, don’t just stop attacking. Head for phantasms, then clones. This insures that the mesmer either needs to waste dodges to produce more(and give away their location), or settle for suboptimal bursts. People got so used to ignoring clones because with debilitating dissipation being commonplace in most build, you didn’t want to go around cleaving them. Now you’re actually rewarded for taking down clones.

FYI, as a warrior you have luxury of taking down clones, High armor, High HP, HS, All those stances, so that comparison is really invalid.

Wrong.

Play to win.

I am so sick of this play to win cliche, it like a trump card to avoid all reasoning and disregard aspects that matter.

So where was this play to win when thieves hard countered mesmers? So?

That’s why I ran phantrupt so as to give me a counter and an edge to thieves. Remember it was only power shatter mesmer that was hard countered by thieves. In wvw on release I ran rabid confusion shatter, scepter/torch sword/focus to counter the prevelant domination of thieves. Later hybrid to cover my basis.

Playing to win IS an exercise in reasoning. The only thing it trumps is scrub thinking. You can’t dismiss that warrior build simply because he was successful, and because other builds on other classes are not. There’s no reason in that.

Oh but there is, Comparing classes with different mechanics, different stats, etc is absurd. Then if you say that, then all mesmers have equal chances of killing thieves pre patch?

The warrior build might be succesful, but there is no scrub mentality in this one, warriors have different tools to work with, even a total noob knows that. So saying Playing to win is all that matters is complete and utter BS.

So if mesmers had heavy armor and higher hp like the warrior, would you still believe that thieves will totally hard counter mesmers? If mesmers had healing signet that heals for 300 hp every second with no healing power, would thieves still counter mesmer?

I do not think so.

Also you are talking about SOLO QUE. The game is not balanced around solo q.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to say with your argument.

As an aside, riddle me this: If you’re not playing to win, what are you doing?

I am playing for fun with friends. That’s all there is to it.

StickerHappy.8052:

I am playing for fun with friends. That’s all there is to it.

Is losing fun?

If it’s not about winning, but about having fun with friends, why are people qqing about losing to mesmers?

More importantly, if the goal of balance patches was to make the game “more fun”, not only would the game probably never be even close to balanced, but everything would be incredibly subjective to. Some people found oneshotting with bugged Grenade Barrage fun. Some people find gimmicky builds with obvious weaknesses fun. Some people find consistent meta builds fun. If you try to please everyone, you’ll end up pleasing no one.

DoomKnightMax.6592:

What now? I’m most likely going to roll the underdog class. Play a non-SA thief till mesmers get nerfed again.

Have fun and hope to not see you too soon.

Another thing, if the main reason you liked playing the class was because it was an underdog at the time, you probably picked that class for the wrong reason. Just seems like you purposefully picked the perceived underdog to lord it over other classes or give yourself an excuse should you lose.

If you jump from class to class wanting to play what’s weakest and are advertising it, it just comes off as a little elitist.

Necrotize.2974:

Another thing, if the main reason you liked playing the class was because it was an underdog at the time, you probably picked that class for the wrong reason. Just seems like you purposefully picked the perceived underdog to lord it over other classes or give yourself an excuse should you lose.

If you jump from class to class wanting to play what’s weakest and are advertising it, it just comes off as a little elitist.

Using my class as an excuse for losing is a very strong accusation. Again this post wasn’t to complain, but rather to express what I personally felt after the patch. Clearly some people will disagree and agree, but a frontal accusation isn’t appreciated. (1v1 me irl m8)

DoomKnightMax.6592:

Necrotize.2974:

Another thing, if the main reason you liked playing the class was because it was an underdog at the time, you probably picked that class for the wrong reason. Just seems like you purposefully picked the perceived underdog to lord it over other classes or give yourself an excuse should you lose.

If you jump from class to class wanting to play what’s weakest and are advertising it, it just comes off as a little elitist.

Using my class as an excuse for losing is a very strong accusation. Again this post wasn’t to complain, but rather to express what I personally felt after the patch. Clearly some people will disagree and agree, but a frontal accusation isn’t appreciated. (1v1 me irl m8)

It wasn’t meant to be an accusation and I didn’t mean to offend, I’m just saying how it comes off. In some of the first threads on the “mesmer OP” subject there were quite a few people who claimed they wouldn’t be playing mesmer again because it wasn’t an underdog anymore. I was actually surprised how many people flat out admitted they picked mesmer just to be underpowered and not so much because they liked the class. That to me just seems like they picked the class for all the wrong reasons and purposefully wanted mesmer to be unwelcoming to new players.

DoomKnightMax.6592:

Again this post wasn’t to complain, but rather to express what I personally felt after the patch.

And yet, the entire post ended up as a big complaint. Funny how that happens…

I’m about to get this quote patented…

Pyroathiest, always making friends.

Please OP , you know exactly what you’re doing making this post and wording it the way you did. It’s a very passively troll way of saying mesmers are OP now and you have an easy time killing people on it now.

It’s literally basically another way of putting what you wrote, and there have been countless posts in the mesmer forums doing the exact same thing and how they’re swapping classes now because it’s wayyyyy tooooo easy only you tried not coming off as trolly as most of them.

This entire post was bait for complaints.

Situations.2416:

Please OP , you know exactly what you’re doing making this post and wording it the way you did. It’s a very passively troll way of saying mesmers are OP now and you have an easy time killing people on it now.

It’s literally basically another way of putting what you wrote, and there have been countless posts in the mesmer forums doing the exact same thing and how they’re swapping classes now because it’s wayyyyy tooooo easy only you tried not coming off as trolly as most of them.

This entire post was bait for complaints.

I’ve once complained on the same manner when people started to discover that bunker engies were really insane at a time, to the point that you’d see those who didn’t even want to glance at the class since the beginning being like “Oh I’ve always wanted to play Engi anyways it’s going to be my main from now on!”, and the strength of the builds themselves got them to attempt to step on my toes.

The thing is, give those FotMers enough time to practice with their cheesy stuff and they’ll eventually learn. Granted they won’t ever reach your level of knowledge with all the builds, combinations, tricks, gameplay bonuses, fun facts, details. But it’s only a matter of time before they catch up to you on the build and stuff they’re investing in. For some, it feels unfair, especially when you come to a point where luck gets in the equation.

The rant from the OP can definitely be legit.

MrForz.1953:

Situations.2416:

Please OP , you know exactly what you’re doing making this post and wording it the way you did. It’s a very passively troll way of saying mesmers are OP now and you have an easy time killing people on it now.

It’s literally basically another way of putting what you wrote, and there have been countless posts in the mesmer forums doing the exact same thing and how they’re swapping classes now because it’s wayyyyy tooooo easy only you tried not coming off as trolly as most of them.

This entire post was bait for complaints.

I’ve once complained on the same manner when people started to discover that bunker engies were really insane at a time, to the point that you’d see those who didn’t even want to glance at the class since the beginning being like “Oh I’ve always wanted to play Engi anyways it’s going to be my main from now on!”, and the strength of the builds themselves got them to attempt to step on my toes.

The thing is, give those FotMers enough time to practice with their cheesy stuff and they’ll eventually learn. Granted they won’t ever reach your level of knowledge with all the builds, combinations, tricks, gameplay bonuses, fun facts, details. But it’s only a matter of time before they catch up to you on the build and stuff they’re investing in. For some, it feels unfair, especially when you come to a point where luck gets in the equation.

The rant from the OP can definitely be legit.

Except that luck only legitimately comes into the equation in a fight between players of very similar skill level. By complaining about how people are ‘just getting lucky and beating me’, the OP is effectively just complaining about how he doesn’t like that seemingly newer players are as good as he is. It’s a cheap way of trying to hide a complaint about not being as skilled as new players behind a front of “comments about the patch”.

Ross Biddle.2367:

One example
I came across this vid on the warrior forum yesterday. Montage of duels this war has with the new build he’s adopted post patch. Final fights are vs a standard shatter mes setup run by a relatively average mes (link starts at mes fight). This war is running duel melee.

https://youtu.be/hSIge84iGDw?t=721

Not sure if that video provides much insight. The shatter mes in this video appeared to be burning almost every dodge off cooldown just to move faster. He’d backpedal away from the warrior, realize that backpedaling is too slow, and then just dodge backwards twice. Never used shatters to blind the warrior’s burst skills, shield bash, or rush. The warrior’s strategy of 24/7 offense worked well because this mesmer did not know how to kite or mitigate damage at all.

In my experience, the better “duel” strategy vs mesmers when you’re running a semi-survivable class is to play defensively and juke/kite with LOS until the mesmer is either down to 1 MoD or out of MoD charges. Then again, I’m just speaking anecdotally ankitten ot esports so others’ opinions may differ.

Back on the OP’s topic, I don’t find mesmer duels boiling down to luck. It’s more about who has better timing, CD management, and is better at baiting MoDs. I wouldn’t assume that someone who’s played mesmer half as long as you is necessarily worse. Especially if you’ve played a ton, because that means someone who’s played half as long as you might still have a lot of experience. I’ve also found that people who take the time to learn how to play all of the classes tend to perform better at duels than people who solely play just one class.

I feel similar to the OP. Pre patch I was planning on playing my mesmer a lot. After the patch came, I eventually started playing my mesmer. After a few games in pvp I stopped. Simply put, playing mesmer doesn’t feel rewarding anymore. When I down people, or win a 1vs1, I don’t think I’ve actually done anything impressive. Having as much damage and cc as mesmers currently do makes landing your burst to easy.

Now, am I Helseth level? No of course not, and I could certainly practice and improve, but until playing mesmer feels rewarding again this won’t happen. Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

zapv.8051:

Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

/facepalm

Let me just translate this statement for you real quick:

“Currently, Mesmer is able to faceroll bad players that don’t know how to dodge. For some unfathomable reason, I find this to be a problem”

The absurdity of this complaint is just off the charts. Not even going to elaborate on why, it should be self-evident.

Fay.2357:

zapv.8051:

Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

/facepalm

Let me just translate this statement for you real quick:

“Currently, Mesmer is able to faceroll bad players that don’t know how to dodge. For some unfathomable reason, I find this to be a problem”

The absurdity of this complaint is just off the charts. Not even going to elaborate on why, it should be self-evident.

So basically he’s upset he can face roll the previously faceroll bads? Nothing’s really changed there. Bads will be bads. The patch didn’t change that.

Fay.2357:

zapv.8051:

Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

/facepalm

Let me just translate this statement for you real quick:

“Currently, Mesmer is able to faceroll bad players that don’t know how to dodge. For some unfathomable reason, I find this to be a problem”

The absurdity of this complaint is just off the charts. Not even going to elaborate on why, it should be self-evident.

As you know by now, I, as well as tons of players with hundreds or even thousands of hours invested in their professions, also think the current popular mesmer builds are as close as can be to without risk.

It’s not just the bad players that see a problem. It’s easy to have powerful results with current mesmer. Way too easy for the reward they reap.

The insta-gib gimmick running rampant atm is very similar to the one shot gimmick you can perform with scepter/dagger (DT + Phoenix+LF etc) but with the added advantage that you can prepare unseen and more often…

Playing a zerk staff ele and despising the d/d cele build myself, I perfectly understand how several mesmers feel about the state of the profession atm.

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Fay.2357:

zapv.8051:

Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

/facepalm

Let me just translate this statement for you real quick:

“Currently, Mesmer is able to faceroll bad players that don’t know how to dodge. For some unfathomable reason, I find this to be a problem”

The absurdity of this complaint is just off the charts. Not even going to elaborate on why, it should be self-evident.

As you know by now, I, as well as tons of players with hundreds or even thousands of hours invested in their professions, also think the current popular mesmer builds are as close as can be to without risk.

It’s not just the bad players that see a problem. It’s easy to have powerful results with current mesmer. Way too easy for the reward they reap.

The insta-gib gimmick running rampant atm is very similar to the one shot gimmick you can perform with scepter/dagger (DT + Phoenix+LF etc) but with the added advantage that you can prepare unseen and more often…

Playing a zerk staff ele and despising the d/d cele build myself, I perfectly understand how several mesmers feel about the state of the profession atm.

And as others, myself included, have pointed out simply shaving PU’s stealth duration and CS’s duration would dramatically reduce the amount of stealth camping and dazes available therefore reducing the number of people playing it.
That does not mean that the class as a whole is overpowered.

Jace al Thor.6745:

Sirbeaumerdier.3740:

Fay.2357:

zapv.8051:

Currently, the class is too faceroll. Not against good players who can dodge, but the other 95% of the time.

/facepalm

Let me just translate this statement for you real quick:

“Currently, Mesmer is able to faceroll bad players that don’t know how to dodge. For some unfathomable reason, I find this to be a problem”

The absurdity of this complaint is just off the charts. Not even going to elaborate on why, it should be self-evident.

As you know by now, I, as well as tons of players with hundreds or even thousands of hours invested in their professions, also think the current popular mesmer builds are as close as can be to without risk.

It’s not just the bad players that see a problem. It’s easy to have powerful results with current mesmer. Way too easy for the reward they reap.

The insta-gib gimmick running rampant atm is very similar to the one shot gimmick you can perform with scepter/dagger (DT + Phoenix+LF etc) but with the added advantage that you can prepare unseen and more often…

Playing a zerk staff ele and despising the d/d cele build myself, I perfectly understand how several mesmers feel about the state of the profession atm.

And as others, myself included, have pointed out simply shaving PU’s stealth duration and CS’s duration would dramatically reduce the amount of stealth camping and dazes available therefore reducing the number of people playing it.
That does not mean that the class as a whole is overpowered.

I never talked about “over powered” or “relevant” or “useful”. I always talked in terms of risk vs reward. And on that topic, for whatever reason post patch, Mesmers have stellar results available in many forms for next to no risks.

Just make it so CS only stuns on interrupt (otherwise, you get a longer-duration daze). That will get rid of the super-easy burst setups that mesmers have. Stealth openers still remain, but they’re on a much longer CD than MoD. And unless the mesmer is point blank, you can still see the mirror blade or ileap coming and dodge it.

ResJudicator.7916:

Just make it so CS only stuns on interrupt (otherwise, you get a longer-duration daze). That will get rid of the super-easy burst setups that mesmers have. Stealth openers still remain, but they’re on a much longer CD than MoD. And unless the mesmer is point blank, you can still see the mirror blade or ileap coming and dodge it.

I dislike this suggestion, mostly be because I don’t feel like every single lockdown-oriented trait shouldn’t simply be “on-interrupt.” I’d rather see CS moved up to compete with power block again.

And people are jumping to extremes left and right here. I think for most people this isn’t about good players vs bad players; this is about the average player. And this isn’t about being the underdog, though that WAS an allure, I highly doubt the majority of players picked Mesmer specifically because of that. (I personally don’t know of anyone who has)

Games in general are fun because they challenge you. Chess wouldn’t be interesting if one player had a queen that could move in figure 8s and wipe out anyone in her path. Gameshark is only cool for a little while before all your cheat codes start to get boring because the entire game is trivialized.

Shatter and lockdown feel like that right now. And no, it’s not because “of course if you’ve been playing mes so long you feel like a god” nor is it “Mesmer Stockholm syndrome” or whatever else you want to come up with to explaiin away the fact that a 1-week Mesmer can absolutely dominate most of their PvP games.

Helseth and the Abjured make money from this game, so yeah they play to win. The rest of us play because we enjoy the game and particularly enjoy the class/build we run. In truth we’re not playing to win, we’re playing for the thrill. And no, that doesn’t mean you have to jump to the entire opposite end of the spectrum with “is losing fun?”

The fact is there is a wide gray area between playing competitively and screwing around, and that’s where most of us stand. The majority of Mesmers are playing an overpowered build, and it’s really hard to justify playing anything else.