Guild Wars 2

oZii.2864:

Mogar.9216:

Mesmer are oped. We are the only class other than thief that can get away with zerker gear. Sure at the highest skill level mesmer are maybe balanced vs other classes 1 v 1. But the fact is that you take 2 players of equal gear and equal skill outside of the top .1%. The one playing mesmer will win vs any other class other than thief. At the higher end skill level Mesmer is even better than thief.
Yes I play mesmer as main and I have geared 80 alts of both thief and Ele.

Edit: btw blurred frenzy + null field or arcane thief simply owns DD eles.

Your post highlights the problem with many nerf threads, or this is OP etc. Mesmers are not OP. Half the conversations about something being OP are about a specific build or builds anyway.

When someone says Ele is Op the first thing they think of is D/D bunker. If a mesmer is OP usually the first thing is Phantasm spec. If a thief is OP its usually d/p or any off hand dagger build. What about Staff Ele? Healing Mantra mesmer? P/P shortbow thief?

Its not about 1v1 seriously it just isn’t they are fun but people need to get it out of their heads for balance.

You said blurred frenzy, and null field, and thievery own a d/d ele. I can say churning earth and lightning flash owns a mesmer. All of those are easy to dodge outside of maybe blurred frenzy if it isnt setup routinely after iLeap. Also the only boon that a ele really cares about losing would be stability from armor of earth the rest are easy to get.

Anyway point is mesmers are fine they are not OP because they have probably the best 1v1 build in the game. 1v1 is some side meta the players came up with. The players always will find a way to duel if there is a means to do so. The players definitely did not balance the game around duels and didn’t care if it was balanced around duels when they started dueling. Now that more people duel people think it should be balanced around dueling a feature that is not officially supported in game.

Its like Oooh world record on lupicus kills. Ok cool there is no leader board for that and there isn’t any official statement on world records for lupi kills. If you go back say 3 months into the game all those threads for Worlds first legendary (insert name).

How do those people know they where first? They don’t they assumed it with no form of data to back it up at all. Made up achievements by players are just that made up and should be taken with a grain of salt.

It’s pretty easy to tell which class are overpowered. Read the other class boards and count the number of posts about “how do I beat xxx class” . Read the thief and mesmer boards and the count the number of “how do I beat xxxx class” posts. Deep down most mesmers ad thieves know we have a good thing going here. Just like most DD ele pre heal and rtl nerf know they had a good thing going (I was one of those).
As for blurred frenzy vs DD eles. The reason it owns DD eles is because all their attacks are short ranged so you don’t have to try to land franzy on them they will come to you. DD ele is strong in healing but their healing is mostly regen, Frenzy does so much spiked damage you force them to play D. Strip their regen right after that and follow with a shatter they are toast 9/10 times. Once again this applies to 90% of the eles. Good ones won’t be caught in a frenzy. This sort of goes to what I am saying the game is balanced in the top end but it really should be balanced for the 99% players not the top 1%.

I mean how many times you run into a really good engi, yet they exist . The really good ones are god like but I would hardlyt call engis op. Same goes with guardians 19 out of 20 guardians are easy kills then the 1 out of 20 will lay a beat down on just about every one. The thing with mesmers and thieves is that even the bad ones are not easy to kill.

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

Mogar.9216:

It’s pretty easy to tell which class are overpowered. Read the other class boards and count the number of posts about “how do I beat xxx class” . Read the thief and mesmer boards and the count the number of “how do I beat xxxx class” posts. Deep down most mesmers ad thieves know we have a good thing going here. Just like most DD ele pre heal and rtl nerf know they had a good thing going (I was one of those).
As for blurred frenzy vs DD eles. The reason it owns DD eles is because all their attacks are short ranged so you don’t have to try to land franzy on them they will come to you. DD ele is strong in healing but their healing is mostly regen, Frenzy does so much spiked damage you force them to play D. Strip their regen right after that and follow with a shatter they are toast 9/10 times. Once again this applies to 90% of the eles. Good ones won’t be caught in a frenzy. This sort of goes to what I am saying the game is balanced in the top end but it really should be balanced for the 99% players not the top 1%.

I mean how many times you run into a really good engi, yet they exist . The really good ones are god like but I would hardlyt call engis op. Same goes with guardians 19 out of 20 guardians are easy kills then the 1 out of 20 will lay a beat down on just about every one. The thing with mesmers and thieves is that even the bad ones are not easy to kill.

The core problem with theives and mesmer are that they require some experience before anyone is able to fight them. These two classes are noob killers. Stealth a mechanic that is hated in all games because the player need experience to counter. Mesmer uses illusions which can easily trick a newbie.

Although this game is balanced on the 1% who actually understands the game, there is a learning curve for all classes. Unfortunately, the learning curve for countering the class is higher than using it

For a DD elemental? Although their attacks are short range, most of their attacks are not melee. I only see a couple of good DD elemental take of advantage of this fact and kite me

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

you have to congest points.
Even worse, there are down time between attack because the way mantras work.
that build is not op in group fights

Basically, you are asking for another mesmer to compasate for your build flaws.

Errr your build is horrible for that reason

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

you have to congest points.
Even worse, there are down time between attack because the way mantras work.
that build is not op in group fights

Basically, you are asking for another mesmer to compasate for your build flaws.

Errr your build is horrible for that reason

lol I was just presenting proof though a video but the build will be fun while it lasts.

Mogar.9216:

Mesmer and Thieve aren’t just good at 1 v 1. They are great in small groups and in the case of mesmer great in zergs too. There are other classes that’s oped in zergs like staff eles but they are very weak in other areas. Mesmers and Thieves are the only 2 classes that can have the SAME build and be good at every aspect of the game. DD eles to some degree are like that but not quite as good (they can pull out a staff and zerg pretty good) and they have 1 build. Thieves and Mesmers not only does everything well they can do it with different builds and weapons sets too.

So maybe, instead of asking to nerf mesmers, complain about lack of variety of builds in other classes. You just want to kill a well made class in this game cause other classes are not as well as mesmer. What a genius.

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

you have to congest points.
Even worse, there are down time between attack because the way mantras work.
that build is not op in group fights

Basically, you are asking for another mesmer to compasate for your build flaws.

Errr your build is horrible for that reason

lol I was just presenting proof though a video but the build will be fun while it lasts.

it proof that the mesmer dueling build is op. It does not prove that 5vs 5 a mesmer is op

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Are you serious?

What a loser if you’re complaining mesmer burst when you use 8 skills to kill a mob.

Ansau.7326:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Are you serious?

What a loser if you’re complaining mesmer burst when you use 8 skills to kill a mob.

well… these people are the normal QQ ers on the mesmer forums.

Well, the mightyaltroll might have a point with this statement; however, he is interesting in nerfing mesmer core mechanics.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Actually, Ozii. I consider Mesmers overpowered because of their Shatter build and how much it brings to the table in team fights.

I’m not necessarily interested in nerfing core mechanics. However, they just do too much at the moment on too short of a cooldown.

If someone can make a suggestion that is appropriate to nerf Mesmer shatter, while still leaving other things intact, that would be fine. Because at the moment, the only way I can see it, is if Mindwrack was put on a 25 second cooldown, and Blurred Frenzy didn’t provide invulnerability, but received a damage increase.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I’m not necessarily interested in nerfing core mechanics. However, they just do too much at the moment on too short of a cooldown.

If someone can make a suggestion that is appropriate to nerf Mesmer shatter, while still leaving other things intact, that would be fine. Because at the moment, the only way I can see it, is if Mindwrack was put on a 25 second cooldown, and Blurred Frenzy didn’t provide invulnerability, but received a damage increase.

Adding a cd to a class specific build’s main source of damage is nerfing the class core mechanics

Blurred Frenzy is probably a hotfix to anet’s mistake when they realize a mesmer is a little bit too squishy and they cannot figure out a better mechanic.

I said, that I would prefer if I didn’t have to. I said that at the moment nerfing the core mechanics is the only way I see possible.

Mesmer is not squishy. They have alot of mobility, and alot of clutter. Blurred Frenzy is over kill.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is not squishy. They have alot of mobility, and alot of clutter. Blurred Frenzy is over kill.

i dont think you understand the problem with mesmer melee?

Without blurr frenzy, there isnt much reason for a mesmer to stay in the melee range for long periods of time. Many of mesmer active defensives have a quite long cd. The cooldown are migrated due to the fact that there is a weapon swap and the invulnerability remove two seconds to the cooldown. Which means, changing blurr frenzy will kill any melee mesmer build.

However, I think anet messed up when designing the class that caused them to add that powerful effect.

Of course, the alternatives are quite bad too.

If mesmer added extra evade to their weapon set, then they are effectively copied the ranger

If the mesmer have more mobility, then they copied the thief

Adding more damage copies warrior hundred blades and anet will might nerf it later on

Adding more range will mirror the d/d elemental which is not a true melee weapon

loseridoit.2756:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is not squishy. They have alot of mobility, and alot of clutter. Blurred Frenzy is over kill.

i dont think you understand the problem with mesmer melee?

Without blurr frenzy, there isnt much reason for a mesmer to stay in the melee range for long periods of time. Many of mesmer active defensives have a quite long cd. The cooldown are migrated due to the fact that there is a weapon swap and the invulnerability remove two seconds to the cooldown. Which means, changing blurr frenzy will kill any melee mesmer build.

However, I think anet messed up when designing the class that caused them to add that powerful effect.

Of course, the alternatives are quite bad too.

If mesmer added extra evade to their weapon set, then they are effectively copied the ranger

If the mesmer have more mobility, then they copied the thief

Adding more damage copies warrior hundred blades and anet will might nerf it later on

Adding more range will mirror the d/d elemental which is not a true melee weapon

I’m going to completely ignore Jackums since his points are generally moot and nonsense. And without even reading them every single thing he says involves “l2p” as though he makes money off of that phrase.

A glass cannon Warrior is ALOT easier to kill than a glass cannon Mesmer, infact, any glass cannon builds are easier to kill than a shatter Mesmer. Hundred Blades has no invulnerability, and I have actually been able to turn the tides of a battle by simply bursting a Warrior while he’s using it. Mesmer Melee is fine. Blurred Frenzy should not grant invulnerability period. My simple point is that focusing a Mesmer down is difficult, despite the fact that the Mesmer is a glass cannon. I would rather them take the route of a Necro and have Blurred Frenzy not root the player using it, give no invulnerability, but be usable at a range of 600.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

loseridoit.2756:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is not squishy. They have alot of mobility, and alot of clutter. Blurred Frenzy is over kill.

i dont think you understand the problem with mesmer melee?

Without blurr frenzy, there isnt much reason for a mesmer to stay in the melee range for long periods of time. Many of mesmer active defensives have a quite long cd. The cooldown are migrated due to the fact that there is a weapon swap and the invulnerability remove two seconds to the cooldown. Which means, changing blurr frenzy will kill any melee mesmer build.

However, I think anet messed up when designing the class that caused them to add that powerful effect.

Of course, the alternatives are quite bad too.

If mesmer added extra evade to their weapon set, then they are effectively copied the ranger

If the mesmer have more mobility, then they copied the thief

Adding more damage copies warrior hundred blades and anet will might nerf it later on

Adding more range will mirror the d/d elemental which is not a true melee weapon

I’m going to completely ignore Jackums since his points are generally moot and nonsense. And without even reading them every single thing he says involves “l2p” as though he makes money off of that phrase.

A glass cannon Warrior is ALOT easier to kill than a glass cannon Mesmer, infact, any glass cannon builds are easier to kill than a shatter Mesmer. Hundred Blades has no invulnerability, and I have actually been able to turn the tides of a battle by simply bursting a Warrior while he’s using it. Mesmer Melee is fine. Blurred Frenzy should not grant invulnerability period. My simple point is that focusing a Mesmer down is difficult, despite the fact that the Mesmer is a glass cannon. I would rather them take the route of a Necro and have Blurred Frenzy not root the player using it, give no invulnerability, but be usable at a range of 600.

<sarcasm>
Make a melee attack on a melee weapon hit from range … genius
</sarcasm>

The mighty troll is trolling by constantly lying. Mesmer is in a good place in pvp, but he’s saying ridiculous things as if mesmers have the best damage, burst and otherwise, in the game with tons of viable builds, best utility in everything etc… as seen in the following:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer can do everything another class could do, better.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That is false. Mesmer owns the best burst in the game.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer, again, has everything they possibly need in their weapon sets, and their Class mechanic.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

All of the setups and damage are ALREADY aligned with their Mechanic/Weapon.

Bunch of lies. Mesmers run zerker because they can but also because they have to. Mesmer with soldier or knight gear does no damage. A lot of other classes can deal real damage with soldier gear, mesmer can’t because mesmer autoattack damage is some of the lowest in the game except for staff in a condi build. All mesmer damage comes from heavily traited mind wrack and certain phantasms. If mesmer weapons are all so perfect then why does nearly everyone run Sword/X + Staff. Mesmer doesn’t use offensive utilities because there aren’t any worthwhile offensive utilities, not because mesmer wouldn’t want to. Mesmer burst is no better than thief burst or dagger ele burst or even some other builds. This troll also said warrior sword autoattack is the lowest damage melee autoattack, even though it’s clearly more damage than mesmer sword autoattack.

Mesmer’s work well in pvp, but they aren’t “the best at everything” as this guy always claims.

I think one problem we see here is that some people consider a class balanced if it is of equal power in whatever metric they choose (say, 1v1 PvP, wrong as it may be – or alternatively, total team contribution potential in tPvP, which is a much better one), versus other people who consider a class balanced if it’s skills and traits are balanced versus one another.

Because to me, fun as it is to play, Mesmers need serious help. >Half our traits aren’t worth even briefly looking at, half our utility is so overspecialized or so underpowered that there’s no point looking at the traits for it, and don’t even get me started on Phantasms, Clones or Elites.

In other words, we need buffs. A lot of them.

Mind you, I couldn’t care less about PvP balance, especially in sPvP. First, make classes fun to play (on their own, ignoring whatever they’re facing). Make things “cool”. Make things overpowered, face-melting, with lots of pink butterflies and glass shards.
Once done, and only then, start balancing the now re-tuned abilities and traits.

^Yes atm Mesmer is extremely unbalanced w/in itself… Some of the random boon on x traits need to have some of these boons removed… Off the top of my had bountiful interruption… There is too much RNG. Since it is in a toughness line why not make it like Prismatic understanding protection/regen/aegis….
in order for us to survive on the level of say a d/d ele… we give up a ton of damage.. (I mean all damage) it is possible… but we aren’t doing much for our team when we bunker…. Mesmer is brought for the quick portals not much else…

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

First off why did you bring the untraited torch? Torch is only used for two reasons, Cleansing Conflagration, Prismatic Understanding…. beyond that you are hurting yourself by having the longest CD phantasm in the game with terrible direct damage and bad confusion damage in PvP. You also used mantras… Mantras are terrible in PvP… even fay the one that is the biggest advocate of the mantra mes admits that they are still too clunky to be useful to a team….You were also trying to use untraited shatters to make a point…. Seriously Zelulose…. This is not proof of Mesmer needing toned down.. People have shown videos of eles/warriors/guardians/thieves/engis downing a heavy golem faster… This video proves nothing.

14k Rifle Shot. Nerf Warriors?

This thread is dumb. Stop feeding the trolls.

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

First off why did you bring the untraited torch? Torch is only used for two reasons, Cleansing Conflagration, Prismatic Understanding…. beyond that you are hurting yourself by having the longest CD phantasm in the game with terrible direct damage and bad confusion damage in PvP. You also used mantras… Mantras are terrible in PvP… even fay the one that is the biggest advocate of the mantra mes admits that they are still too clunky to be useful to a team….You were also trying to use untraited shatters to make a point…. Seriously Zelulose…. This is not proof of Mesmer needing toned down.. People have shown videos of eles/warriors/guardians/thieves/engis downing a heavy golem faster… This video proves nothing.

So what your saying is… mesmer can be better than the damage shown on the video… even worse. Your only digging the mesmer’s grave by criticizing me this time. I still don’t understand why you keep following me on forums to tell me how bad I am.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I’m going to completely ignore Jackums since his points are generally moot and nonsense. And without even reading them every single thing he says involves “l2p” as though he makes money off of that phrase.

A glass cannon Warrior is ALOT easier to kill than a glass cannon Mesmer, infact, any glass cannon builds are easier to kill than a shatter Mesmer. Hundred Blades has no invulnerability, and I have actually been able to turn the tides of a battle by simply bursting a Warrior while he’s using it. Mesmer Melee is fine. Blurred Frenzy should not grant invulnerability period. My simple point is that focusing a Mesmer down is difficult, despite the fact that the Mesmer is a glass cannon. I would rather them take the route of a Necro and have Blurred Frenzy not root the player using it, give no invulnerability, but be usable at a range of 600.

I just saying Anet is removing the meleee mesmer from the game from a design mistake.

I know mesmer have a lot of survivability but is there a reason why a mesmer should risk themselves to go in melee range?

Giving a sword 600 range is a copy of a ele. Short range attack but no melee skills. I wonder making classes feel different is a design mistake in all MMOs

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

loseridoit.2756:

Zelulose.8695:

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo

Err… did you seriously used a dueling build to show that a mesmer is OP? Nobody uses mantra of pain. Most tpvp mesmer only uses 1 clone utility.

Any build with mantra of pain is a dueling build. Anet does not balance the game around 1 vs 1.

I admit that this dueling build have crazy burst potential

All that damage had a small aoe radius its not a dueling build.

it is a dueling build. the out of combat mobility of that build is horrible. Do you realize why a phastasm mesmer is not used in tounies. Because traveling from point to point is a huge limiting factor

Lol so we go from its op in duels its op in group fights to its ok cause they don’t run to a point fast enough? What happens if one of his team buddies is a port mesmer or they give him aoe swiftness?

First off why did you bring the untraited torch? Torch is only used for two reasons, Cleansing Conflagration, Prismatic Understanding…. beyond that you are hurting yourself by having the longest CD phantasm in the game with terrible direct damage and bad confusion damage in PvP. You also used mantras… Mantras are terrible in PvP… even fay the one that is the biggest advocate of the mantra mes admits that they are still too clunky to be useful to a team….You were also trying to use untraited shatters to make a point…. Seriously Zelulose…. This is not proof of Mesmer needing toned down.. People have shown videos of eles/warriors/guardians/thieves/engis downing a heavy golem faster… This video proves nothing.

So what your saying is… mesmer can be better than the damage shown on the video… even worse. Your only digging the mesmer’s grave by criticizing me this time. I still don’t understand why you keep following me on forums to tell me how bad I am.

Actually I was saying OTHER classes take out a heavy golem with more ease. Meaning ur video proved nothing

Whoa! I hop back into my Mesmer class and for some reason it feels a lot weaker than the last time I played it. Wtf happen?

Mess Mash.7098:

Whoa! I hop back into my Mesmer class and for some reason it feels a lot weaker than the last time I played it. Wtf happen?

Criers everywhere…

Ansau.7326:

Mess Mash.7098:

Whoa! I hop back into my Mesmer class and for some reason it feels a lot weaker than the last time I played it. Wtf happen?

Criers everywhere…

he might be a staff condition mesmer and the bouncing logic changed

I hope they don’t nerf the Mesmer, it’s the only class I’ve been able to get into.

When I first got the game, I started a Thief, got to like level 22, and just lost interest. Then I started a Warrior, got to like level 30. It was by far the easiest class, but god awfully boring. Then I started an Engineer and Ranger. Ranger only made it to 16. Engineer was fun for the atheistic, but I died a lot, and my account eventually got hacked, and the character was deleted. Started a Mesmer, and now I’m level 61, and STILL having a blast. It’s not as easy as the Warrior or Ranger, but it’s the funnest class I’ve played.

Don’t nerf my Mesmer!

Yea thanks guys for the update. Also a lot of complainers out there that I saw that maybe was not playing or making a good build. It’s not that hard.

loseridoit.2756:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer is not squishy. They have alot of mobility, and alot of clutter. Blurred Frenzy is over kill.

i dont think you understand the problem with mesmer melee?

Without blurr frenzy, there isnt much reason for a mesmer to stay in the melee range for long periods of time. Many of mesmer active defensives have a quite long cd. The cooldown are migrated due to the fact that there is a weapon swap and the invulnerability remove two seconds to the cooldown. Which means, changing blurr frenzy will kill any melee mesmer build.

However, I think anet messed up when designing the class that caused them to add that powerful effect.

Of course, the alternatives are quite bad too.

If mesmer added extra evade to their weapon set, then they are effectively copied the ranger

If the mesmer have more mobility, then they copied the thief

Adding more damage copies warrior hundred blades and anet will might nerf it later on

Adding more range will mirror the d/d elemental which is not a true melee weapon

This is a very good point. TheMightyAltroll doesn’t understand these kind of mechanics of gameplay. Despite his arguments being countered, he just repeats them over and over as if they will suddenly make sense. There’s a reason that he regularly compares the mesmer to warriors and necros. Those professions make any of the other professions look OP. In fact, I’d target the weakness of warriors and necros as the major balance problem because it creates the kind of unreasonable expectations TheMightyAltroll posts here.

All the professions, except the warrior and necro, get these kinds of complaints. They come from two kinds of players. Those who die quickly to bursts (warriors, necros, and poorly designed/played builds) and those who expect their build to kill everything as quickly as they can kill warriors and necros. Thus, rangers get complaints about being too hard to kill and their pets doing too much damage. Guardians are too hard to kill. Eles are too hard to kill. Thieves are too hard to kill and do too much damage. Engineers are too hard to kill and do too much damage. Mesmers are too hard to kill and do too much damage. I’ve seen them all. When necros and warriors get the defense they need to survive the bursts from the other professions, we will see a lot less complaints. There will still be some. Bads are bad, afterall.

So rather than nerfing, I’d like to see all professions made as competitive as the ranger, engineer, thief, and mesmer. These are the professions that are doing it right. They do enough damage to take out the defense of other professions and have enough defense to survive attacks. Plus, they each have unique styles of play that make the game interesting. Decreasing their damage or removing their defense (or if TheMightyAltroll gets his way, both) will just create more imbalance. If the game was just warriors and necros, they all just be one-shotting each other as soon as they meet. Maybe some people want that kind of game, but I’d imagine they are in the minority and don’t seem to be the type that Anet is catering to.

Here are my rankings:

Balanced:
Thief
Ranger
Mesmer
Engineer

Need more damage:
Elementalist
Guardian

Need more defense:
Warrior
Necromancer

Mesmer, and Ranger are overbearing compared to other classes. I kill Rangers on my Necro/Engineer, and I kill Mesmers on my Ranger/Thief/Engineer. It’s not that they are unkillable, or cheating, they’re just stronger than the other classes. They have more capability, or single skills are too strong.

You cannot put Engineer or a Thief in the same tier list as Mesmer/Ranger unless you’re going specifically from a WvW/PvE perspective. You also obviously have never fought a Meditation Guardian, or a glass cannon Elementalist to suggest that they need more damage.

Honestly your post screams a lack of knowledge of classes that aren’t Shatter related.

Just my own experience, but the main tell for me that points to mesmers being a little too strong with less counters than other professions is that I only really fear other mesmers when playing my mesmer.

Not saying that I can’t be beat by other professions, of course I can, but fighting mesmers is as difficult on my mesmer as it is when I’m playing another profession.

Jackums.3496:

NerfedWar.8749:

Just my own experience, but the main tell for me that points to mesmers being a little too strong with less counters than other professions is that I only really fear other mesmers when playing my mesmer.

Not saying that I can’t be beat by other professions, of course I can, but fighting mesmers is as difficult on my mesmer as it is when I’m playing another profession.

That’s less a product of power and more a product of play style.

Mesmers and Thieves both possess high in-combat mobility and burst, so they’re good counters for each other. That doesn’t mean they’re the only professions of equal power, though. D/D Eles, BM Rangers, (etc.) are all in the same tier, or higher, but certain professions are always going to be either stronger or weaker when matched against certain others due to their play style. Think of it like rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock.

Fixed it for you

Rhogall.4179:

Jackums.3496:

NerfedWar.8749:

Just my own experience, but the main tell for me that points to mesmers being a little too strong with less counters than other professions is that I only really fear other mesmers when playing my mesmer.

Not saying that I can’t be beat by other professions, of course I can, but fighting mesmers is as difficult on my mesmer as it is when I’m playing another profession.

That’s less a product of power and more a product of play style.

Mesmers and Thieves both possess high in-combat mobility and burst, so they’re good counters for each other. That doesn’t mean they’re the only professions of equal power, though. D/D Eles, BM Rangers, (etc.) are all in the same tier, or higher, but certain professions are always going to be either stronger or weaker when matched against certain others due to their play style. Think of it like rock-paper-scissors-lizard-spock.

Fixed it for you

much more better

Jackums.3496:

NerfedWar.8749:

Just my own experience, but the main tell for me that points to mesmers being a little too strong with less counters than other professions is that I only really fear other mesmers when playing my mesmer.

Not saying that I can’t be beat by other professions, of course I can, but fighting mesmers is as difficult on my mesmer as it is when I’m playing another profession.

That’s less a product of power and more a product of play style.

…Think of it like rock-paper-scissors.

Let me rephrase in your own language. I see paper-rock-rock-rock-paper-paper-paper-scissors…. with the mesmer being the paper. My biggest issue is when I meet another paper, not a somewhat rare scissors.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer, and Ranger are overbearing compared to other classes. I kill Rangers on my Necro/Engineer, and I kill Mesmers on my Ranger/Thief/Engineer. It’s not that they are unkillable, or cheating, they’re just stronger than the other classes. They have more capability, or single skills are too strong.

You cannot put Engineer or a Thief in the same tier list as Mesmer/Ranger unless you’re going specifically from a WvW/PvE perspective. You also obviously have never fought a Meditation Guardian, or a glass cannon Elementalist to suggest that they need more damage.

Honestly your post screams a lack of knowledge of classes that aren’t Shatter related.

Come on guys, this dude has “troll” right in his name. (joke, of course)

Some fallacies in your arguments:

Ex1: Mesmers are balanced at high level, but OP at low level, therefore bring them down in power level – argument to moderation (mean fallacy).

Ex2: Hammer warriors have CC but cannot burst – incomplete comparison (they most certainly can, just differently).

Ex3: (A = your argument, B = counter-argument) – A: Mesmer burst is too strong, B: X class has equal burst, A: you can’t interrupt blurred frenzy – raising the bar/red herring… B: you can’t interrupt any class with stability, A: blurred frenzy/mind wrack has a short CD – raising the bar again… B: Thief burst has a 4 second cooldown, no clones necessary, A: mesmers bring more to the team – red herring/incomplete comparison. And so on.

These arguments never end, no response will change your mind, and this will likely inflame, though I hope not.

Mesmers are indefensible in the state they are in. To those of you that are still trying to , spent a bit of time playing a different class; this may help to improve your sense of fair play.
+1 TheMighty, I am amazed that you had to argue as hard as you did but impressed that you did. Shows that someone at least cares about the state of the game:D

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Confusion is REALLY strong, because it literally makes channeled skills kill you, which is a direct counter for power Necromancers and alot of Guardian builds.

Have you actually played the game after the confusion nerfs? You can pretty much ignore it now its so kitten weak. I play both Elementalist and Mesmer and while all the ele’s were whining about the nerfs, I was rejoicing because now I never die to confusion anymore which was my number one killer.

This thread is laughable. Mesmer as a profession has been nerfed into the ground.

I wonder how other professions would feel if one of their main (if not most) damaging AOEs was doing 1/3 (or less) of the damage it did a few months ago.

While other classes like warrior, thief, ranger, just got buffed…..

My Mesmer almost 80. Time to face roll in wvw!

dylan.5409:

Mesmers are indefensible in the state they are in. To those of you that are still trying to , spent a bit of time playing a different class; this may help to improve your sense of fair play.
+1 TheMighty, I am amazed that you had to argue as hard as you did but impressed that you did. Shows that someone at least cares about the state of the game:D

OP downplays the strengths of other classes and exaggerates a mesmer’s strengths while completely ignoring their weaknesses and downsides.

I care about the state of the game- I am completely for giving classes buffs they need to be able to compete. What I don’t care for is the use of biased “arguments” to try and get other classes nerfed to stop them from being able to compete.

I mained thief since I started at launch. I begun doing spvp in December with thief until a couple of weeks ago:

Recently bought a character slot, built a mesmer. Went to heart of the mists right after the introduction (pve lvl=2) and set up a phantasm build. After reading the skills a couple of times, started some spvp matches to try it. With thief I couldn’t kill bunkers like guardian, elementalist, engineer, ranger. I couldn’t with D/D burst nor D/P, I could kill them only with a S/D build specifically designed for it just to be ineffective against every other build type. With my new mesmer I could SLAY said builds, and every other build effortlessly… during my first match as a mesmer. So after a lifetime playing thief I could achieve better results with mesmer on my very first match. Also played Engineer with Static Discharge before starting mesmer: again, I’m not as affective with engi as much as I am with mesmer despite having more experience with engi.

Also, mesmer is the only class being able to win a 1vs1 even if it gets downed first, except maybe warrior.

And concerning “oh but is very bad in group fight situations”: no it’s not bad it’s at least average since iDuelist and iSwordsman tend to stay out of harm. And, by the way, it’s not uncommon to meet 1vs1 situations, like assaulting a point kept under a bunker’s protection.

Also, stunbreakers assigned to mesmer’s best utilities like blink and decoy. On my thief I only had one stunbreaker on a 45 seconds cooldown, on mesmer I have 2 on 30 an 40 secs.

Not to mention having 2 blocks (that can double as blind and daze should the need arise), one invulnerability that dishes out good damage, and one more daze and one more invulnerability with high drawback on a such offensive spec.

Now I’m levelling my mesmer: in wvw the only class that will survive 1vs1, the most frequent scenario when you roam, will be thief… if they don’t actually try to fight back.

Some people will say phantasm mesmer is balanced due to being weak against multiple players… I say having to bring 2 people to kill one non-bunker, that has 3 pets attacking every 5 seconds for 5000 dmg each, is the exact opposite of balance. Funniest thing I never realized how strong it is before playing it.

Farming glory every day now… half asleep!

Lucky Shot.7650:

I mained thief since I started at launch. I begun doing spvp in December with thief until a couple of weeks ago:

Recently bought a character slot, built a mesmer. Went to heart of the mists right after the introduction (pve lvl=2) and set up a phantasm build. After reading the skills a couple of times, started some spvp matches to try it. With thief I couldn’t kill bunkers like guardian, elementalist, engineer, ranger. I couldn’t with D/D burst nor D/P, I could kill them only with a S/D build specifically designed for it just to be ineffective against every other build type. With my new mesmer I could SLAY said builds, and every other build effortlessly… during my first match as a mesmer. So after a lifetime playing thief I could achieve better results with mesmer on my very first match. Also played Engineer with Static Discharge before starting mesmer: again, I’m not as affective with engi as much as I am with mesmer despite having more experience with engi.

Also, mesmer is the only class being able to win a 1vs1 even if it gets downed first, except maybe warrior.

And concerning “oh but is very bad in group fight situations”: no it’s not bad it’s at least average since iDuelist and iSwordsman tend to stay out of harm. And, by the way, it’s not uncommon to meet 1vs1 situations, like assaulting a point kept under a bunker’s protection.

Also, stunbreakers assigned to mesmer’s best utilities like blink and decoy. On my thief I only had one stunbreaker on a 45 seconds cooldown, on mesmer I have 2 on 30 an 40 secs.

Now I’m levelling my mesmer: in wvw the only class that will survive 1vs1, the most frequent scenario when you roam, will be thief… if they don’t actually try to fight back.

Some people will say phantasm mesmer is balanced… I say having to bring 2 people to kill one non-bunker is the exact opposite of balance. Funniest thing I never realized how strong it is before playing it.

Farming glory every day now… half asleep!

The OP isn’t complaining about phantasm builds, so this isn’t even relevant.

But honestly, what do you expect? You took the “Overpowered Phantasm Build” (I think that’s what Pyro called it?)- of course you would do well with it. It’s ridiculous in 1v1 fights, so stomping pubs in spvp is more than expected.

And just fyi, it is bad in group fights. It’s stupidly good in 1v1, still really good in 2v2, okay in 3v3, and starts scaling poorly as the fights get bigger. More people = more aoes = dead phantasms. It doesn’t matter if the iDuelist is ranged, or that the iSwordsman evades- auto-attacks go astray, and any kind of aoe places on them means they’re gone. No phantasms means you have to rely entirely on retaliation to do damage… but more people means that retaliation is spread out more before you die.

So it is bad in group fights… but still good on 3vs3? Thought 3vs3 was considered a group fight. If we’re talking about 8vs8 (hate that kitten), then thief is less useful than those two phantasms: they stay ranged to deal damage, thief has to shadowstep in melee to do so and in a 8vs8 you basically implode! And I think phantasms do give regen to nearby allies, not bad in a group fight! But yes, in a 8vs8 we’re useles… may as well being backcapping during a fight like that.

Sorry for the out of topic, I read the whole topic and even if it shifted to Shatter builds I thought initially it was about mesmer in general.

Still, I don’t know if I’m complaining, may it sound weird. I’m struggling between the love for my thief and the love of feeling powerful. Maybe I’m happy as things are now, still don’t know.

Lucky Shot.7650:

So it is bad in group fights… but still good on 3vs3? Thought 3vs3 was considered a group fight. If we’re talking about 8vs8 (hate that kitten), then thief is less useful than those two phantasms: they stay ranged to deal damage, thief has to shadowstep in melee to do so and in a 8vs8 you basically implode! And I think phantasms do give regen to nearby allies, not bad in a group fight! But yes, in a 8vs8 we’re useles… may as well being backcapping during a fight like that.

Sorry for the out of topic, I read the whole topic and even if it shifted to Shatter builds I thought initially it was about mesmer in general.

Still, I don’t know if I’m complaining, may it sound weird. I’m struggling between the love for my thief and the love of feeling powerful. Maybe I’m happy as things are now, still don’t know.

I don’t know the exact point where it starts becoming a bad build choice- it could start losing most of its effectiveness even at 2v2s, I’m not sure. I just know that it scales terribly, even worse than thieves do (thieves can still decently well in group fights- at absolute minimum, the shortbow’s spammable blast finisher, regardless of damage, can provide a group with a ton of support). The 1v1 phantasm mesmer has nothing- no combo fields, no finishers (unless you took a torch, but even the finisher on that is bugged), no group boons, no damage, nothing.

I commend you for reading the whole thread before posting though. It started out as a general “mesmer is OP it needs nerfs” thread, but when asked what about the mesmer was OP, he said it was our burst/glkittenter spec. So really, the thread should be renamed and edited, but the OP isn’t here and hasn’t been here for days. In all honesty, this thread shouldn’t have been necro’ed, and at this point should be locked.

@Lucky Shot

The reason why a phastasm mesmer is not played in tournies is its low mobility.

If a phastasm mesmer got a buff to something like 50 percent speed boon uptime then it will be on the OP side.

However, the build does not scale well in team battles and the mesmer will still have to travel to capture points which makes this build not OP.

Come on guys, enough with all this whining to nerf mesmer.

The fact is you guys just can’t take it when the “pink purple butterflies” kicked your kitten with now you see me, now you’re dead.

No, mesmer do not need anymore further nerfing. End of discussion.

Speaking from a Rank 31 pvp. Main Guardian.

dylan.5409:

Mesmers are indefensible in the state they are in. To those of you that are still trying to , spent a bit of time playing a different class; this may help to improve your sense of fair play.
+1 TheMighty, I am amazed that you had to argue as hard as you did but impressed that you did. Shows that someone at least cares about the state of the game:D

So apart from Mesmer I play Engineer, Elementalist and Necromancer. And I don’t understand the issues you face. Do you maybe only play sPvP, and try to 1v1 vs Phantasm Mesmers.

While indeed overpowered in the context, that build is extremely weak as a whole, passable in PvE and nearly useless in WvW if you cannot guarantee you can smallscale roam at all times (which you probably cannot).
It needs help, not nerfs. Sure, ideally this includes making it slightly weaker for single-encounters, but do keep in mind that the smallest format is 5v5 for a reason. Even then, nerfing Phantasm Mesmers would be a horrible idea due to how weak the spec already is, depending on context.