Guild Wars 2

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

As of right now I feel ranger, necromancer, Thief and ele, and engi are balanced just based on the variety their builds hold and the lack of cheep damage that is much too high to defend against withing a short time span. Thief stelath may be annoying but by far, they are not Op. The mesmer needs toning down with damage but otherwise are balanced and the warrior needs buffing. Gurdians are perfectly balanced in team fights only. Gw2 is almost balanced in my oppinion just not quite there.

^From the person that said the bleeds from phantasms are OP… Then played his “AMAZING Phantasm build” against a fairly well known mesmer and played just horribly to the point of we honestly though if he was trying or not… if he is using his level of play for justifying calling for anything being toned down i would hope the devs take that suggestion with a very large grain of salt.

Putting me down is not the way to prove your point

Also I was showing damage I wanted to show how fast hp could be lost when you have high toughness and fairly high hp. Skill was not the point of that video displaying mesmer damage was. (note: That mesmer dropped the hp fast with boons like protection and regeneration and further more, look at the CD on my heal skill due to daze I barely even had a second to actually heal it for say 5k+ after it dropped to 13k/18khp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k99BKVpBxXQ

Because you didn’t charge your mantras before you started the fight… you also had a fight with no stun breakers… Having high toughness is meaningless if you are gonna still just sit there and take it. My anti condition bunker guard still dodges attacks even with 3400 armor total.

Vs. Theifs I don’t have to charge them before a fight because their backstabs deal 3k-1k why should this mesmer do more than a GC thief with little room for defences.
At 0:46 you will see I lost 5k almost instantly right after summoning the idefender. Thieves can’t do this.

I still don’t see a good enough reason for any nerfs. Full shatters require consumption of your clones/phantasms, which don’t just pop out of thin air- just because Mind Wrack is off recharge, doesn’t mean you have the illusions out to actually use it. And when you do use it, you leave yourself very vulnerable and without sources of significant damage. So if you avoid the burst through whatever means you choose, you have almost no pressure on you from the mesmer until MW recharges.

Basically what I’m trying to say is: to get the big burst you think is unfair, a mesmer must devote the vast majority of their traits and all of their stats towards shatter damage. If a player specs that heavily into something, they should get good dividends for their heavy investment. That’s how bunkering/glass cannon-ing works.

But let’s look at the combo you are QQing about- iLeap > Swap > Daze Shatter > Blurred > MW. Or maybe it’s Daze Shatter before the iLeap? Not sure, but regardless- I think that’s the one you’re talking about. Gives immobilize, daze, and good damage compression since MW can be used with Blurred Frenzy. What are the key skills here to make the combo so strong? Is it the damage itself? Hundred Blades, Kill Shot, engineer burst (I don’t know the combo for that) and Backstab combos can all easily match the raw damage. And you said it yourself that those bursts are strong, but strong != overpowered.

The problem, as your posts hinted to, is the CC involved with the combo. The two CCs that occur are the daze and the immobilize. Daze is completely negated by any skill with a stunbreaker. But even if you have a stunbreaker, you wouldn’t be able to stop the shatter with an interrupt or CC of your own anyways. It only prevents skills that apply blocking or invuln, provided they aren’t stunbreakers or insta-cast… of which, there are very few. So the issue isn’t really with the daze. Immobilize seems like the culprit, which negates the most powerful tool for negating shatters- dodging.

Swap causes the only immobilize mesmer has. If you aren’t immobilized, it opens the door to dodge-rolling, which (when done correctly) will completely negate the entire burst combo. If you can counter Swap, then the burst damage is negated just as easily as other burst combos.

So if you learn how to counter swap, which is just a generic CC skill with more than one tell, then shatters aren’t an issue… hence why people say l2p.

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

As of right now I feel ranger, necromancer, Thief and ele, and engi are balanced just based on the variety their builds hold and the lack of cheep damage that is much too high to defend against withing a short time span. Thief stelath may be annoying but by far, they are not Op. The mesmer needs toning down with damage but otherwise are balanced and the warrior needs buffing. Gurdians are perfectly balanced in team fights only. Gw2 is almost balanced in my oppinion just not quite there.

^From the person that said the bleeds from phantasms are OP… Then played his “AMAZING Phantasm build” against a fairly well known mesmer and played just horribly to the point of we honestly though if he was trying or not… if he is using his level of play for justifying calling for anything being toned down i would hope the devs take that suggestion with a very large grain of salt.

Putting me down is not the way to prove your point

Also I was showing damage I wanted to show how fast hp could be lost when you have high toughness and fairly high hp. Skill was not the point of that video displaying mesmer damage was. (note: That mesmer dropped the hp fast with boons like protection and regeneration and further more, look at the CD on my heal skill due to daze I barely even had a second to actually heal it for say 5k+ after it dropped to 13k/18khp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k99BKVpBxXQ

Because you didn’t charge your mantras before you started the fight… you also had a fight with no stun breakers… Having high toughness is meaningless if you are gonna still just sit there and take it. My anti condition bunker guard still dodges attacks even with 3400 armor total.

Vs. Theifs I don’t have to charge them before a fight because their backstabs deal 3k-1k why should this mesmer do more than a GC thief with little room for defences.

Saying you don’t need to charge before any fight is just plain. Sad really… Even mesmers that put their builds around mantras completely charge them before beginning any fight… Kind of like how pyro had his mantra of distraction ready to rock… If you had your mantra of recovery readied you could have easily out healed that initial burst. But you decided to start a fight with no condition removal or heal ready… in which case you earned that loss.

Richard Nixon.6573:

I still don’t see a good enough reason for any nerfs. Full shatters require consumption of your clones/phantasms, which don’t just pop out of thin air- just because Mind Wrack is off recharge, doesn’t mean you have the illusions out to actually use it. And when you do use it, you leave yourself very vulnerable and without sources of significant damage. So if you avoid the burst through whatever means you choose, you have almost no pressure on you from the mesmer until MW recharges.

If I use my Lich to burst now, then I won’t have it until it recharges. That is what every class has to go through, only you have to do less to ready it up again.

Richard Nixon.6573:

Basically what I’m trying to say is: to get the big burst you think is unfair, a mesmer must devote the vast majority of their traits and all of their stats towards shatter damage. If a player specs that heavily into something, they should get good dividends for their heavy investment. That’s how bunkering/glass cannon-ing works.

So does EVERY OTHER CLASS TRYING TO DO DAMAGE. Only Mesmer does it WAY better, whilst still having moderate to high survivability.

Richard Nixon.6573:

But let’s look at the combo you are QQing about- iLeap > Swap > Daze Shatter > Blurred > MW. Or maybe it’s Daze Shatter before the iLeap? Not sure, but regardless- I think that’s the one you’re talking about. Gives immobilize, daze, and good damage compression since MW can be used with Blurred Frenzy. What are the key skills here to make the combo so strong? Is it the damage itself? Hundred Blades, Kill Shot, engineer burst (I don’t know the combo for that) and Backstab combos can all easily match the raw damage. And you said it yourself that those bursts are strong, but strong != overpowered.

Those bursts are strong, but Mesmer’s bursting comes easier, and on a short cooldown, and ontop of that it CANNOT be interrupted or blinded! I can interrupt a Hundred Blades Warrior, plus he’s not invulnerable while doing it.

Richard Nixon.6573:

The problem, as your posts hinted to, is the CC involved with the combo. The two CCs that occur are the daze and the immobilize. Daze is completely negated by any skill with a stunbreaker. But even if you don’t have a stunbreaker, you wouldn’t be able to stop the shatter with an interrupt or CC of your own anyways. It only prevents skills that apply blocking or invuln, provided they aren’t stunbreakers or insta-cast… of which, there are very few. So the issue isn’t really with the daze. Immobilize seems like the culprit, which negates the most powerful tool for negating shatters- dodging.

Essentially, a Greatsword Warrior has to bring utilities to help him get off his 100 blades. A Thief has to do quite a bit of setup, and bring utilities just to survive the retaliation. Hipshot Engineers have to waste ALL of their toolbelt skills for a huge burst, and those have long cooldowns.

Mesmers have everything they need on Staff and S/P. I honestly ran a shatter build a while back with no utilities, I did quite well.

Richard Nixon.6573:

Swap causes the only immobilize mesmer has. If you aren’t immobilized, it opens the door to dodge-rolling, which (when done correctly) will completely negate the entire burst combo. If you can counter Swap, then the burst damage is negated just as easily as other burst combos.

I would like to see you counter swap on reaction in the middle of a fight surrounded by clones.

Richard Nixon.6573:

So if you learn how to counter swap, which is just a generic CC skill with more than one tell, then shatters aren’t an issue… hence why people say l2p.

You cannot learn how to counter it. It is not possible. It’s like me telling you to counter my Corrupt Boon, or my Blood is Power in the middle of a fight, the kitten ed thing is virtually instant and you’ll never see it coming in time to stop it, and I only wish utilities on other classes on 45+ second cooldowns could do as much as a single Mesmer shatter.

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

As of right now I feel ranger, necromancer, Thief and ele, and engi are balanced just based on the variety their builds hold and the lack of cheep damage that is much too high to defend against withing a short time span. Thief stelath may be annoying but by far, they are not Op. The mesmer needs toning down with damage but otherwise are balanced and the warrior needs buffing. Gurdians are perfectly balanced in team fights only. Gw2 is almost balanced in my oppinion just not quite there.

^From the person that said the bleeds from phantasms are OP… Then played his “AMAZING Phantasm build” against a fairly well known mesmer and played just horribly to the point of we honestly though if he was trying or not… if he is using his level of play for justifying calling for anything being toned down i would hope the devs take that suggestion with a very large grain of salt.

Putting me down is not the way to prove your point

Also I was showing damage I wanted to show how fast hp could be lost when you have high toughness and fairly high hp. Skill was not the point of that video displaying mesmer damage was. (note: That mesmer dropped the hp fast with boons like protection and regeneration and further more, look at the CD on my heal skill due to daze I barely even had a second to actually heal it for say 5k+ after it dropped to 13k/18khp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k99BKVpBxXQ

Because you didn’t charge your mantras before you started the fight… you also had a fight with no stun breakers… Having high toughness is meaningless if you are gonna still just sit there and take it. My anti condition bunker guard still dodges attacks even with 3400 armor total.

Vs. Theifs I don’t have to charge them before a fight because their backstabs deal 3k-1k why should this mesmer do more than a GC thief with little room for defences.

Saying you don’t need to charge before any fight is just plain. Sad really… Even mesmers that put their builds around mantras completely charge them before beginning any fight… Kind of like how pyro had his mantra of distraction ready to rock… If you had your mantra of recovery readied you could have easily out healed that initial burst. But you decided to start a fight with no condition removal or heal ready… in which case you earned that loss.

I Don’t know why you follow me on forums just to say I suck. Why don’t you record a winning vs this guys with another class. Then maybe I would believe you. I wasn’t even using my standard mesmer build and you keep insulting me. I felt like flaging you many time but I don’t do that sort of thing. Keep acting like the people who think they can defend their biased opinion on a class by bashing another player.

Jackums.3496:

It is a learn to play issue, hence it being repeated so often. People refuse to learn how a profession works or become familiar with them, and then they come to the forums and make uninformed posts whining about topics that are not even issues, as you are doing now. It’s become clear that you’re bent on sticking to your senseless arguments, so why would I feed you by trying to reason with you? I initially responded with very valid points and your refutes were simply weak. Go ask players of top tPvP teams if they consider the Mesmer over-powered. It competitive PvP the Mesmer is essentially just utility.

I use Mesmer. I am familiar with how the profession works. I stated that I am not interested in seeing bug fixes with Mesmer until they are brought down and rebalanced. Get over it.

Jackums.3496:

In a 1v1, a good D/D Ele, P/D Thief, or BM Ranger will be very capable of defeating a shatter Mesmer, particularly due to the fact that the majority of their damage is dependent on a single, very predictable and easily countered burst combo.

The game is not balanced for 1v1, if you stepped outside of your hole, you would realize that. You would also realize that P/D is considered, and really is an unviable build for tPvP.

Jackums.3496:

Phantasm builds are the only aspect of the Mesmer right now that are complained about with any validity, and even then they pay for their power by being mediocre in team fights or any AoE-heavy situation. They’re essentially a build type created solely for 1v1s. That said, you’re complaining about the shatter Mesmer, which is what’s laughable.

The problems with Phantasmal builds are virtually non-existent, as the only overpowered part about them is the Phantasmal Duelist, which upon being nerfed, would be perfectly fine. The Shatter Mesmer is brought into every strong tournament team for a reason. I dare you to find me a single class that can do as much for a team as a shatter Mesmer.

Jackums.3496:

Also, just for you own satisfaction, my Necro says hi

Congratulations, you have an 80 Necro. I’m so proud of you.

Jackums.3496:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I use Mesmer. I am familiar with how the profession works. I stated that I am not interested in seeing bug fixes with Mesmer until they are brought down and rebalanced. Get over it.

You’re also obviously not very good at it if you believe it’s over-powered.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

The game is not balanced for 1v1, if you stepped outside of your hole, you would realize that. You would also realize that P/D is considered, and really is an unviable build for tPvP.

It’s amusing because you just hurt your own argument by saying that. The game isn’t balanced around 1v1, which is where the Mesmer excels, so how exactly does your whining amount to anything of substance? The Ele, Ranger, Guardian, Engi, and Necro are all equally or even more useful in team fights than a shatter Mesmer, utility aside. Again, utility is just about all the Mesmer is in competitive PvP. Keep trying.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

The problems with Phantasmal builds are virtually non-existent, as the only overpowered part about them is the Phantasmal Duelist, which upon being nerfed, would be perfectly fine. The Shatter Mesmer is brought into every strong tournament team for a reason. I dare you to find me a single class that can do as much for a team as a shatter Mesmer.

Mesmers are used in tournaments due to their utility, not their “super awesome over-powered shatter burst combo!!!” Again, keep trying.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Congratulations, you have an 80 Necro. I’m so proud of you.

Hopefully you learn how to play yours well some day.

Lol you basically stated that mesmer is op 1vs1 and It is already obvious they have viable builds for 5vs5s so essentially your admitting that mesmer has an advantage. It may be a learn to play issue but it is also a class based issue.

Jackums.3496:

Zelulose.8695:

Lol you basically stated that mesmer is op 1vs1 and It is already obvious they have viable builds for 5vs5s so essentially your admitting that mesmer has an advantage

I said the Mesmer excels in 1v1.

How does that equate to me labeling them as over-powered?

I is op when you have 1vs1 situation in a group fight. It does happen. And by the way, why wouldn’t a class that cannot be defete in a 1 vs 1 be considered overpowered even if the game (despite the amount of dueling servers) is “team play”?

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

jportell.2197:

Zelulose.8695:

As of right now I feel ranger, necromancer, Thief and ele, and engi are balanced just based on the variety their builds hold and the lack of cheep damage that is much too high to defend against withing a short time span. Thief stelath may be annoying but by far, they are not Op. The mesmer needs toning down with damage but otherwise are balanced and the warrior needs buffing. Gurdians are perfectly balanced in team fights only. Gw2 is almost balanced in my oppinion just not quite there.

^From the person that said the bleeds from phantasms are OP… Then played his “AMAZING Phantasm build” against a fairly well known mesmer and played just horribly to the point of we honestly though if he was trying or not… if he is using his level of play for justifying calling for anything being toned down i would hope the devs take that suggestion with a very large grain of salt.

Putting me down is not the way to prove your point

Also I was showing damage I wanted to show how fast hp could be lost when you have high toughness and fairly high hp. Skill was not the point of that video displaying mesmer damage was. (note: That mesmer dropped the hp fast with boons like protection and regeneration and further more, look at the CD on my heal skill due to daze I barely even had a second to actually heal it for say 5k+ after it dropped to 13k/18khp) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k99BKVpBxXQ

Because you didn’t charge your mantras before you started the fight… you also had a fight with no stun breakers… Having high toughness is meaningless if you are gonna still just sit there and take it. My anti condition bunker guard still dodges attacks even with 3400 armor total.

Vs. Theifs I don’t have to charge them before a fight because their backstabs deal 3k-1k why should this mesmer do more than a GC thief with little room for defences.

Saying you don’t need to charge before any fight is just plain. Sad really… Even mesmers that put their builds around mantras completely charge them before beginning any fight… Kind of like how pyro had his mantra of distraction ready to rock… If you had your mantra of recovery readied you could have easily out healed that initial burst. But you decided to start a fight with no condition removal or heal ready… in which case you earned that loss.

I Don’t know why you follow me on forums just to say I suck. Why don’t you record a winning vs this guys with another class. Then maybe I would believe you. I wasn’t even using my standard mesmer build and you keep insulting me. I felt like flaging you many time but I don’t do that sort of thing. Keep acting like the people who think they can defend their biased opinion on a class by bashing another player.

While that post may have been mean you made several obvious mistakes in this fight which you also tried to use as a “justification” for nerfing phantasm bleed even though that fight had nothing to do with phantasms bleeding you dry. In case you missed it here are the major mistakes you ran in that fight. You also claimed the build that you were using against Pyro was a “superior” 1v1 build etc.

1. MANTRAS NOT READIED! I understand you may have had Restorative mantras traited to heal when you cast them. But clearly from when you targeted him you could see that he was running a shut down type of build. Instant cast spells are gold against builds like that and you should have taken an extra 6 seconds (Pyro would have given them to you he isn’t that type of player) and readied your mantras.
2. No stun breaks… mesmers are not guardians or necromancers (with the right trait a minion master is a beast at removing conditions) our way of avoiding damage is not through tanking or clearing conditions it is at not getting hit by them to begin with which is ANETS justification for giving us the crappiest condition removal in the game.
3. Dodged in the beginning without avoiding anything. you pretty much wasted any active defense you had right here since you had no readied mantras or stunbreaks.
4. Didn’t summon phantasmal defender until you were less than 20% health… You should have summoned him on something at the beginning of a fight clone phantasm doesn’t matter as long as he is up he is tanking half your damage.

And the reason the mesmers have gotten up in arms is because you were trying to justify a nerf based off of something that had absolutely jack to do with what you are trying to nerf. It is like saying you hate smokers but then choose to live with a roommate that smokes non-stop… it was just a very faulty base to be building an argument on.

Keep bashing me to defend your class and proving my point. I don’t even have to defend myself against this

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

So does EVERY OTHER CLASS TRYING TO DO DAMAGE. Only Mesmer does it WAY better, whilst still having moderate to high survivability.

That wasn’t a point refuting anything you said. That was supposed to point out how to achieve the burst, they build completely around it, just like any other glass cannon. Which, in turn, supports my point later on that the damage of the burst isn’t the problem.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Those bursts are strong, but Mesmer’s bursting comes easier, and on a short cooldown, and ontop of that it CANNOT be interrupted or blinded! I can interrupt a Hundred Blades Warrior, plus he’s not invulnerable while doing it.

And no other class has such a severe decrease in dps after the burst (mesmer auto-attacks hit for less than pretty much every other class), or can have their burst take physical form, which can be killed before applying damage. It’s a trade-off.

Blurred Frenzy also makes him immobile. If you move away before or during the attack, you have some time to reposition yourself to counter-burst him.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Essentially, a Greatsword Warrior has to bring utilities to help him get off his 100 blades. A Thief has to do quite a bit of setup, and bring utilities just to survive the retaliation. Hipshot Engineers have to waste ALL of their toolbelt skills for a huge burst, and those have long cooldowns.

The only thing this “proves” is that classes rely on their utilities… I don’t know about engineer, but a warrior and thief certainly don’t need utilities for their burst (each have CC on non-utility skills). Utilities just make a build more effective, and mesmer utilities have long cooldowns as well. Also…

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmers have everything they need on Staff and S/P. I honestly ran a shatter build a while back with no utilities, I did quite well.

I find this extremely hard to believe. The utilities don’t make your burst more damaging, they help your survive (and I’ve played both tanky and glass specs without survival utilities. Both have a lot of problems staying alive against competent opponents). You had to have faced people waaaay worse than you are, and they must have died to a single burst- which, if that’s the case, any class could have killed hem just as easily.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I would like to see you counter swap on reaction in the middle of a fight surrounded by clones.

If the mesmer stays at mid-range, then suddenly moves towards you, you know burst is coming, and should be reacting accordingly. If you mean keeping track of the actual mesmer, that is most certainly an experience thing that comes with practice. Even with the most frequent stealthing a mesmer can do, they are easy to pick out of a crowd. I find them in my mesmer vs mesmer fights quite easily.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

You cannot learn how to counter it. It is not possible. It’s like me telling you to counter my Corrupt Boon, or my Blood is Power in the middle of a fight, the kitten ed thing is virtually instant and you’ll never see it coming in time to stop it, and I only wish utilities on other classes on 45+ second cooldowns could do as much as a single Mesmer shatter.

The tells that a Swap is coming:
-Mesmer stays at mid-range to long-range for a while, then runs at you. iLeap is very short range, and Illusionary Persona shatters require melee range, so burst is likely about to happen. You should be on your toes.
-iLeap isn’t insta-cast. If you see them wave their arm (not swing their sword), ESPECIALLY if they aren’t close enough to swing their sword and hit you, iLeap is happening.
-iLeap sends a clone at you. Swap requires the clone to travel to you. The travel takes time. If you see a clone leaping at you, a Swap is about to happen.

Three different visual clues. None of them are instantaneous. It requires some quick reflexes and thought, but you certainly can learn to counter it.

Richard Nixon.6573:

That wasn’t a point refuting anything you said. That was supposed to point out how to achieve the burst, they build completely around it, just like any other glass cannon. Which, in turn, supports my point later on that the damage of the burst isn’t the problem.

The damage of the burst wouldn’t be a problem if it weren’t so easy to set up and on such a short cooldown.

Richard Nixon.6573:

And no other class has such a severe decrease in dps after the burst (mesmer auto-attacks hit for less than pretty much every other class), or can have their burst take physical form, which can be killed before applying damage. It’s a trade-off.

Guess what, Necromancer has the most severe drop after a burst. Try using a Wellmancer, after your Wells are gone you have virtually nothing but light Dagger attacks. Necromancer Wells are on a 45 second cooldown, 38 seconds IF you trait for it (Involving 20 points into Blood Magic, where you don’t want it to be)

Plus if you build specifically for Deathshroud, your DS autoattack damage goes down immensely based on how much Deathshroud you have left. How neat is that?

Richard Nixon.6573:

Blurred Frenzy also makes him immobile. If you move away before or during the attack, you have some time to reposition yourself to counter-burst him.

So? It still makes him invulnerable for the duration.

Richard Nixon.6573:

The only thing this “proves” is that classes rely on their utilities… I don’t know about engineer, but a warrior and thief certainly don’t need utilities for their burst (each have CC on non-utility skills). Utilities just make a build more effective, and mesmer utilities have long cooldowns as well. Also…

Warrior requires utilities to set up a burst. Thieves require utilities to survive after their burst or to aid it. Engineer actually needs their utilities for a burst AND surviving afterwards. Necromancers need their utilities for literally everything and have to build around them. Elementalists need their utilities just to survive long enough to achieve a burst.

Mesmer, and Ranger, are the only classes in the game that allow their class mechanics/weapon skills to do everything for them, and NOT in a balanced way I might add. (For example of ‘balanced class mechanics’, see Guardian)

Richard Nixon.6573:

I find this extremely hard to believe. The utilities don’t make your burst more damaging, they help your survive (and I’ve played both tanky and glass specs without survival utilities. Both have a lot of problems staying alive against competent opponents). You had to have faced people waaaay worse than you are, and they must have died to a single burst- which, if that’s the case, any class could have killed hem just as easily.

Guess what, I dare you to go play an glass cannon DPS Staff Elementalist, with only 14k vitality and 0 toughness. I double dare you. Can’t do it? Guess what, even the glassiest of Mesmers are incredibly hard to kill. They have invulnerability, they have invisibility, they have loads of CC, and even half stun breakers on weapons. How in the name of hell do you find that bloody balanced?

Richard Nixon.6573:

If the mesmer stays at mid-range, then suddenly moves towards you, you know burst is coming, and should be reacting accordingly. If you mean keeping track of the actual mesmer, that is most certainly an experience thing that comes with practice. Even with the most frequent stealthing a mesmer can do, they are easy to pick out of a crowd. I find them in my mesmer vs mesmer fights quite easily.

1v1.

Try paying attention to that in a 3v3. Against 2 of them, and possibly a Thief.

Richard Nixon.6573:

The tells that a Swap is coming:
-Mesmer stays at mid-range to long-range for a while, then runs at you. iLeap is very short range, and Illusionary Persona shatters require melee range, so burst is likely about to happen. You should be on your toes.
-iLeap isn’t insta-cast. If you see them wave their arm (not swing their sword), ESPECIALLY if they aren’t close enough to swing their sword and hit you, iLeap is happening.
-iLeap sends a clone at you. Swap requires the clone to travel to you. The travel takes time. If you see a clone leaping at you, a Swap is about to happen.

Three different visual clues. None of them are instantaneous. It requires some quick reflexes and thought, but you certainly can learn to counter it.

See above.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Guess what, Necromancer has the most severe drop after a burst. Try using a Wellmancer, after your Wells are gone you have virtually nothing but light Dagger attacks. Necromancer Wells are on a 45 second cooldown, 38 seconds IF you trait for it (Involving 20 points into Blood Magic, where you don’t want it to be)

Plus if you build specifically for Deathshroud, your DS autoattack damage goes down immensely based on how much Deathshroud you have left. How neat is that?

I don’t have a necro to try this out with, but going off the damage listed on tooltips (granted, this assumes that all autoattacks scale approximately the same with power), necro dps is actually about the same. All necro MH weapon autoattacks (and even the deathshroud AA) do more than mesmer sword AA, so with skill activation speed considered (and the fact that necro are ranged attacks) necro and mesmer have approximately equal dps.

Would be interested in testing that, however.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

So? It still makes him invulnerable for the duration.

If you ignore the downsides of using a skill, of course you can make it seem OP. Using that logic, deathshroud is massively OP- you can get a ton more health out of nowhere, and I can’t blind/interrupt/daze/counter it whatsoever. You need life force for it? So what? You still get a ton more health and there’s nothing I can do about it.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Warrior requires utilities to set up a burst. Thieves require utilities to survive after their burst or to aid it. Engineer actually needs their utilities for a burst AND surviving afterwards. Necromancers need their utilities for literally everything and have to build around them. Elementalists need their utilities just to survive long enough to achieve a burst.

Warriors have CC on their weapon skills (hammer has a ton of CC, for example). Thieves have CC on their elite, stealth on their weapon skills, and shadowstepping on their weapons/class mechanic. Engineer also has some CC on their kit skills, and to some extent, some on their weapon skills (though from what I understand, those aren’t often used). D/D Eles have CC on their offhands (staff eles aren’t used except in large scale battles, which I assume you aren’t worried about). None of these classes/builds need utilities to set up burst. They can help make it a bit more likely to hit, but they aren’t necessary.

Well necros might be the only ones who actually require utilities to do their burst (because the wells themselves are utilities), but pretty much every other class doesn’t require utilities to do a burst. They are used to survive between and during the burst. Why you say “mesmer doesn’t need utilities” as a reason they are OP is beyond me.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Guess what, I dare you to go play an glass cannon DPS Staff Elementalist, with only 14k vitality and 0 toughness. I double dare you. Can’t do it? Guess what, even the glassiest of Mesmers are incredibly hard to kill. They have invulnerability, they have invisibility, they have loads of CC, and even half stun breakers on weapons. How in the name of hell do you find that bloody balanced?

Yes, let’s all go play a terrible small-scale build and use that as the poster child of why a build in another class that focuses completely on small-scale battle is imbalanced.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

1v1.

Try paying attention to that in a 3v3. Against 2 of them, and possibly a Thief.

That’s an issue with battlefield awareness, not with shatters.

Also, more people = more aoes being used. More aoes = clones/phantasms die off a lot easier, and clones from Deceptive Evasion are far more likely to target different players (at which point you are slapping two or three people, rather than punching one in the face).

Also, just for the record, where are we talking about mesmers being imbalanced? In 1v1? 2v2? 3v3? large-scale 20v20? I’d appreciate it if we picked a format to discuss and stick with that only.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

See above.

See above.

I can’t discuss with you because you compare apples to oranges. You absolutely lost me there in the “Necros have the same DPS” comment, and lost me even further when you seem to believe that Blurred Frenzy isn’t as good as Hundred Blades… There literally is no downside to Blurred Frenzy.

Hammer has alot of CC, yes. BUT IT CANNOT BURST. You’re comparing that to Mesmer S/P? You have everything you could possibly need jam packed into a single weapon set. Don’t try to compare classes to a Mesmer, you cannot. Mesmer can do everything another class could do, better.

Mesmer, again, has everything they possibly need in their weapon sets, and their Class mechanic. Every other class in the game save Ranger, need utilities to deal damage, or set up damage. All of the setups and damage are ALREADY aligned with their Mechanic/Weapon. That’s an enormous advantage over most other classes immediately, as it becomes far more consistent.

I didn’t say the DPS glass Staff Ele build was bad, I said that you wouldn’t be able to use it. Mesmer is far more effective, and far more tougher than said Ele build, despite trying to accomplish the same things.

Once again, go play a 5v5 tournament against a team that built their core around 2-3 Mesmers. Try fighting a Mid point being bombarded by shatters.

I’m not saying Mesmer is OP because I fail to kill them, I’m saying they’re OP compared to every other class in the game save only Ranger which is equally strong. The things a Mesmer can do vs the things other classes can do.

So because a team builds their base around a profession of 2-3 of the same that profession is OP? Have you not seen videos of a 5 warrior team wrecking people? Or a team that has two MM that guarantee no one will ever touch that point thanks to 10 meat shields and chainable fears and CC between their minions.
2 guardians can ensure that they keep a team busy or half a team busy on one point and the other 3 roam.

What’s funny is you say how all these other classes need to use utilities to do damage.. Guess how many Mesmer utilities actually “Do damage”…… crickets… oh yeah that’s right! No Mesmer utilities do any damage that would mean anything…. So Mesmer has to get all damage from weapons and even then 3 of the 5 weapon skills are the only ones that do okay damage one is a clone generator which in general does no damage the other is some form of CC (if you notice every Mesmer weapon has this as well as a lot of other classes see):
ele OH dagger air and earth
Necro main hand dagger and sta kitten
Ranger SB 5 and GS 5
Thief pistol 4…
Engi rifle 4, pistol 5 shield 4 and 5
Guardian Shield/Hammer

See where I am going with this?

And D/D triple cantrip eles need utilities to do damage? Im sorry how damaging is armor of earth/mistform/lightning strike?
How about guardians how damaging are their shouts?
What about a thief? They may get it with assasins signet but those are things that improve stats not direct damage.
And do you honestly think a Mesmer with out mirror images, Decoy and or Blink is gonna do okay… If one of their phantasms gets blinded they may have to pull another illusion out toot sweet.

Also hammer has a ton of CC which leads to burst you make it sound as if a warrior brings hammer he can bring absolutely nothing else… They are actually the only class I believe that can trait to reduce the time between weapon swaps…

you seriously sound like a straight out negative nancy bro… mesmers want their bugs fixed… Also mesmers have gotten destroyed severely since beta… FYI Blurred Frenzy USED to hit just as hard as 100B… So anet has nerfed it.

Ugh, you really don’t even understand other classes at all. Jportell, why don’t you go try out other classes? I’m not even going to bother to argue with you people anymore. You’re delusional.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Ugh, you really don’t even understand other classes at all. Jportell, why don’t you go try out other classes? I’m not even going to bother to argue with you people anymore. You’re delusional.

yeah… I have no earthly clue man… not one bit… yet here you are on the Mesmer forum when you clearly don’t main a Mesmer trying to tell Mesmer players how to play… I am not gonna pick apart each and everything about necros but there are tons of things that they do better.

And you really think after your displays here showing that you favor nothing but necro anyone really wants to contact you for advice? No mesmers will go to people like Pyro, Kylia, Osicat, and Seven Mirror… for one reason… They are nice to people that have opinions unless that person is just kind of mean to start with.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I can’t discuss with you because you compare apples to oranges. You absolutely lost me there in the “Necros have the same DPS” comment, and lost me even further when you seem to believe that Blurred Frenzy isn’t as good as Hundred Blades… There literally is no downside to Blurred Frenzy.

I looked at the weapon damage on the skill tooltips, and multiplied by cast time. If mesmer AA and necro AA scales the same with the same amount of power (which I explained in the post) then their AA dps after a burst is about the same. Not hard to understand.

The downside to Blurred Frenzy is that you cannot move. Is it good? Yes. It is. I’m not denying that Blurred Frenzy is good- it just isn’t the god-mode ROFLSTOMP ALL THE NUBS skill you seem to think it is.

I’m also quite interested in you quoting what I said that made you think Blurred Frenzy isn’t as good as Hundred Blades. Please, quote it for me, because I even re-read everything I typed and nothing even comes close to that insinuation.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Hammer has alot of CC, yes. BUT IT CANNOT BURST. You’re comparing that to Mesmer S/P? You have everything you could possibly need jam packed into a single weapon set. Don’t try to compare classes to a Mesmer, you cannot. Mesmer can do everything another class could do, better.

That’s why there’s weapon swaps… you CC them, then switch to GS and burst. And I never compared them, where the heck are you getting that from? All I said was that most classes do not require their utilities for their burst.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer, again, has everything they possibly need in their weapon sets, and their Class mechanic. Every other class in the game save Ranger, need utilities to deal damage, or set up damage. All of the setups and damage are ALREADY aligned with their Mechanic/Weapon. That’s an enormous advantage over most other classes immediately, as it becomes far more consistent.

Again, the only thing you need to burst someone is to CC them, and then do damage. Most classes and builds have CC on the weapon sets themselves. Classes rely on their utilities for survival to different extents, but you seem to have this misconception that every class is a cripple without their utilities except mesmer… and that’s just not true. Mesmer relies on their utilities to safely do their burst as much as any other class.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I didn’t say the DPS glass Staff Ele build was bad, I said that you wouldn’t be able to use it. Mesmer is far more effective, and far more tougher than said Ele build, despite trying to accomplish the same things.

Once again, go play a 5v5 tournament against a team that built their core around 2-3 Mesmers. Try fighting a Mid point being bombarded by shatters.

I’m not saying Mesmer is OP because I fail to kill them, I’m saying they’re OP compared to every other class in the game save only Ranger which is equally strong. The things a Mesmer can do vs the things other classes can do.

Of course it wouldn’t work,glass cannon staff ele is for large-scale combat. It isn’t designed for 1v1, 2v2, etc. combat because it is mostly aoe effects with very little mobility to help with survival. The fact that you interpreted “terrible small-scale build” as “terrible build” is really making me start regretting even posting in this thread.

Because my Necromancer can totally destroy my Mesmer and her clones/phants with this while still maintaining 23k HP.

Also, Swap from Illusionary Leap can easily be avoided if you keep your distance or roll from the sword clone…so a Swap to Blurred Frenzy and Shatter combo is less feasible than you think.

Nerf forum whiners
Problem solved

Alissah.9281:

Nerf forum whiners
Problem solved

This.

Of course come classes are better than others, thats y you roll them and play them, just look at Bright Wizards when War came out lol.

Both shatter and phantasm mesmers u cant really go wrong with, stealth, teleport, mass dps(AoE for shatter), good survivability, the only drawback i find is mobility.

Thieves and Mesmers for me are still a cut above other classes in this game in WvW, simply due to mass burst capability and damage avoidance through stealth(for the thief) and for the mesmer blurred frenzy/distortion/stealth.

I really dont see much of a point to other classes with the dissolution of roles. Sure Guardians are good for driving back a zerg but really u see a zerg inc u can map back and just run out again …. stacks intact and these 2 classes can get out of combat easier than any other. Combat drops and port back to base, regroup and out u go again.

Ive run into a group of 4 thieves that took a zerg to drive off, if they chose a target it was going down, probably count down their burst in vent on someone on the edge of the zerg then bam ur down and staked from stealth then they stealth off wait for cooldowns, rinse repeat and a 4 mesmer group is just roflcakes, it looks like a zerg of its own. That also has 4 5sec group stealths to fire off if they want, dunno how many times ive been running away from a zerg in stealth on my mesmer spamming the waypoint beacon like a boss lol.

In sPvP the whole holding and taking points makes bunker specs favourable. But this is not the case if all you want to do is roam around WvW killing people, in this instance some classes are simply much better than others.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Anyhow, I have used condition based Mesmer in PvP before, it’s actually good. Just wouldn’t seem that way going from Shatter/Phantasmal to it since you’re not nuking someone in a quarter of a second. Confusion is REALLY strong, because it literally makes channeled skills kill you, which is a direct counter for power Necromancers and alot of Guardian builds.

Goes a long way to show how clueless you are. Confusion triggers only once on channeled skills. You’d know that if you actually played a confusion mesmer. You would also know that Confusion was always a bag of useless donkey crap in spvp, now after the nerf it’s also crap in wvw. A stack of confusion deals about 1.5 times as much damage per skill activation as a stack of bleed per second, while being far harder to get large amounts of and it lasts far less.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

I’d rather see Mind Wrack, Blurred Frenzy, and Phantasmal Duelist nerfed so they’re not god tier anymore. Then we can actually see what we’re working with underneath the nonsense.

Anyhow, I have used condition based Mesmer in PvP before, it’s actually good. Just wouldn’t seem that way going from Shatter/Phantasmal to it since you’re not nuking someone in a quarter of a second. Confusion is REALLY strong, because it literally makes channeled skills kill you, which is a direct counter for power Necromancers and alot of Guardian builds.

Sorry, confusion is not ‘really strong’ anymore.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Guess what, I dare you to go play an glass cannon DPS Staff Elementalist, with only 14k vitality and 0 toughness. I double dare you. Can’t do it? Guess what, even the glassiest of Mesmers are incredibly hard to kill. They have invulnerability, they have invisibility, they have loads of CC, and even half stun breakers on weapons. How in the name of hell do you find that bloody balanced?

Just want to point out that Mesmers have no stun breakers on weapons that I know of. If you are referring to Phase Retreat, it is not a stun breaker.

info:
http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Phase_Retreat

Starting to see ALOT of 3-4 Mesmer Tpvp teams ….. if any class is being used this much it’s because it’s broken OP. They just do much damage with very little effort.

StugLyfe.2134:

Starting to see ALOT of 3-4 Mesmer Tpvp teams ….. if any class is being used this much it’s because it’s broken OP. They just do much damage with very little effort.

Something funny…. I played against a 5 Mesmer team with 2 thieves 1 Mesmer 1 bunker ranger and 1 engi… We wiped the floor with them… If mesmers are really OP and require no skill and can do so much damage with no effort… Why did that team suck? I mean if its such a skilless class why weren’t they laughing as they steam rolled us?

Now play a good 5 man Mesmer team.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Now play a good 5 man Mesmer team.

By definition a class that is OP means that anyone can pick it up and be good with no problems…. now these mesmers were all r20 plus so they had some semblance of what to do plus they were premade it was not five random mesmers just luck of the draw…. and they still got steam rolled… once we had one locked down.. he was done in a matter of 3-5s… if that… then it was just easy pickens one by one.

That is infact not the definition of OP.

The definition of overpowered is that a class, weapon, or other video game object/person is incredibly stronger, or has far more capabilities, than it’s peers.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

That is infact not the definition of OP.

The definition of overpowered is that a class, weapon, or other video game object/person is incredibly stronger, or has far more capabilities, than it’s peers.

Well then by definition Mesmer is no longer OP… We aren’t incredibly stronger we do not have more capabilities than our peers… other classes have better burst capability… Then other classes have far better survivability and other classes have far better damage over time…. So… thanks for proving the point… Wait why are you here still thought you were done with this thread? Mr. Message me in game because I am Mesmer/thief/necro/ranger god.

That is false. Mesmer owns the best burst in the game. Mesmer has above average survivability on glass cannon builds. Mesmer has the highest sustained damage in the game.

Also, I thought I was done too, but you kept on spreading ignorance, so I feel it is my forumite duty to correct you.

Warrior eviscerate,
Thief Larcenous Strike, Back stab, AA (yeah thief AA chain does a total of 3-4k damage… what we get out of a blurred if lucky)
Rampaging ranger with the proper pet
Any number of necro marks… For mesmers to burst we have to be in melee and if you throw it down before or right after we burst the marks will hit us… I have heard of one necro saying that they got a mark of blood total damage to do 7k… Hmmmmm….
S/D ele hakitten me for 8k with their air attack…

Please tell me more about how our burst is absolutely amazing compared to everyone else.

Mesmer can crit for just as much as Eviscerate, and is set up significantly easier, whilst also requiring no adrenaline build up.

Thieve’s damage comes at incredible risk and is easily avoided/counterbursted.

Ranger cannot burst for that much damage.

Necromancers marks are relatively weak, and can simply be countered by dodging. The important marks have very high cooldowns, and the Necro is vulnerable without them. Also, Necromancers have a 8k+ bleed on Blood is Power, for 30+ seconds. Too bad people have condition cleanses.

S/D Elementalists cannot do it every 10 seconds.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Mesmer can crit for just as much as Eviscerate, and is set up significantly easier, whilst also requiring no adrenaline build up.

Thieve’s damage comes at incredible risk and is easily avoided/counterbursted.

Ranger cannot burst for that much damage.

Necromancers marks are relatively weak, and can simply be countered by dodging. The important marks have very high cooldowns, and the Necro is vulnerable without them. Also, Necromancers have a 8k+ bleed on Blood is Power, for 30+ seconds. Too bad people have condition cleanses.

S/D Elementalists cannot do it every 10 seconds.

yeah they can do it consistently between their Scepter 2 and 3 skills… and I mean the mark of blood… Oh and guess who just has terrible condition cleanse… Mesmer… for us to be effective against people like necro mancers we have to sacrifice the stun break or a group utility for that condi cleanse… and we deal with conditions best by avoiding them which is THE POINT OF THE CLASS! And Mesmer burst comes at a risk as well
. Clonse shatter… well its easy to pick out which Mesmer is the real one oh and guess who can’t stand up to 10s of hard DPS (the amount of time you say it takes for us to recharge our burst) MESMERS!

A) Scepter 2 applies a decent bleed, and a decent cripple, but it actually takes predicting where the opponent will be to land it. It has a slow cast time. Scepter 3 doesn’t do anything. Mark of Blood is average. Ranger shortbow can apply stronger bleeds faster than a Necromancer can just by autoattacking.

B) I’m so sorry that you have to use a utility and that you’re not born completely invincible. Most other classes have to sacrifice 2 or more utilities to be viable.

C) So?

D) Shatter Mesmer is literally the only glass cannon build in the game that can survive being focused for extended periods of time simply because of invulnerability, stealth, retreats, decoys, and clutter.

jportell.2197:

Warrior eviscerate,
Thief Larcenous Strike, Back stab, AA (yeah thief AA chain does a total of 3-4k damage… what we get out of a blurred if lucky)
Rampaging ranger with the proper pet
Any number of necro marks… For mesmers to burst we have to be in melee and if you throw it down before or right after we burst the marks will hit us… I have heard of one necro saying that they got a mark of blood total damage to do 7k… Hmmmmm….
S/D ele hakitten me for 8k with their air attack…

Please tell me more about how our burst is absolutely amazing compared to everyone else.

8K scepter air attack….
http://i946.photobucket.com/albums/ad303/menageabro/brendanfraiserhahahaclap.gif

You must be using the new scepter air attack “Heavenly Judgment”

Heh, I thought he was thinking of Fire Grab only misplaced it on the Air attunement. Now that I think about it, I’ve rarely seen even Firegrab do that much.

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Heh, I thought he was thinking of Fire Grab only misplaced it on the Air attunement. Now that I think about it, I’ve rarely seen even Firegrab do that much.

Just to intercede again.

12.5k fire grab at the 7:40 mark.

Also, scepter attack 2 hits regularly in that video for close to 5000. It is traited for a 4 second cooldown.

Jackums.3496:

Rayya.2591:

Jettit.7184:

lets nerf everything…every move a mesmer does gives boons to the enemy…mesmer can only have 1 clone and it takes constant etheral dmg lets remove mantras because theres too much “lock down” ability…staff 1 skill doesnt give conditions anymore…

god this whole thing about mesmers being o kitten tupid please stop showing your ignorance and play a mesmer and figure out how to beat them…hmm lets see theres a few things that mesmers cant deal with because no one traits into a bs cc removal build because its useless…we cant remove conditions well…the only thing we can with is on a ridiculous cd…i have an idea lets learn something for once and figure out that mesmers are only as op as you let them be

if mesmer make his staff rotation corectly, with melandru rune, lemongras , rabid
he will have : 1700 condition damage, 17000 hp /2800 armor / 50 critical chance -65% condition duration
phase retreat – 8 seconds blink
perma vigor -1 dodge /5 seconds
perma retailation -COF
blink /decoy -stun breakers.
He is nearly imposible to kill 1 vs 1, not cause confusion, cause mobility

Have you ever fought a D/D Ele 1v1? How about a BM regen Ranger? Or a bunker Guardian? Maybe a stealth Thief? Almost every profession has a spec that is “nearly impossible” to kill in a 1v1. Ignorance is bliss when you’re complaining about a profession that you simply don’t want to have to put effort in and L2P in order to defeat.

name a necro build that is unbeatable… name a warrior build that is unbeatable…

actually i dont think mesmers, eles, engi’s or any of those ez profs need a nerf. I do however think necro’s and warriors need to get some of the godmode survivability these classes have.

dandamanno.4136:

Just to intercede again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD1S_sP90Ao

12.5k fire grab at the 7:40 mark.

Also, scepter attack 2 hits regularly in that video for close to 5000. It is traited for a 4 second cooldown.

That’s a WvWvW footage.
WvWvW.

Mesmer are oped. We are the only class other than thief that can get away with zerker gear. Sure at the highest skill level mesmer are maybe balanced vs other classes 1 v 1. But the fact is that you take 2 players of equal gear and equal skill outside of the top .1%. The one playing mesmer will win vs any other class other than thief. At the higher end skill level Mesmer is even better than thief.
Yes I play mesmer as main and I have geared 80 alts of both thief and Ele.

Edit: btw blurred frenzy + null field or arcane thief simply owns DD eles.

if mesmer is balanced at high skill level what is the problem? if arena net were to balance around average skill level it would pretty much be a death for this game to ever be an e-sport.

Rasterranger.8417:

if mesmer is balanced at high skill level what is the problem? if arena net were to balance around average skill level it would pretty much be a death for this game to ever be an e-sport.

Problem is you can’t get to high skill level without going through low and mid skill levels. The game isn’t good enough to make people put up with getting completely owned for day and days just to get better. Why is it fair for Thieves and Mesmers to enjoy the game right away where all other classes have to suffer at the early stages?

Mogar.9216:

Rasterranger.8417:

if mesmer is balanced at high skill level what is the problem? if arena net were to balance around average skill level it would pretty much be a death for this game to ever be an e-sport.

Problem is you can’t get to high skill level without going through low and mid skill levels. The game isn’t good enough to make people put up with getting completely owned for day and days just to get better. Why is it fair for Thieves and Mesmers to enjoy the game right away where all other classes have to suffer at the early stages?

Because the game have never been and will never be developed around 1vs1… And sorry, but most people aren’t owned day by day in PvP. I’ve seen a lot of people with engineers, eles, and guardians who owns fights.

1vs1 is a small part of this game, which is bigger than designers thought it would be cause players do 1vs1 in WvW.

Ansau.7326:

Mogar.9216:

Rasterranger.8417:

if mesmer is balanced at high skill level what is the problem? if arena net were to balance around average skill level it would pretty much be a death for this game to ever be an e-sport.

Problem is you can’t get to high skill level without going through low and mid skill levels. The game isn’t good enough to make people put up with getting completely owned for day and days just to get better. Why is it fair for Thieves and Mesmers to enjoy the game right away where all other classes have to suffer at the early stages?

Because the game have never been and will never be developed around 1vs1… And sorry, but most people aren’t owned day by day in PvP. I’ve seen a lot of people with engineers, eles, and guardians who owns fights.

1vs1 is a small part of this game, which is bigger than designers thought it would be cause players do 1vs1 in WvW.

Mesmer and Thieve aren’t just good at 1 v 1. They are great in small groups and in the case of mesmer great in zergs too. There are other classes that’s oped in zergs like staff eles but they are very weak in other areas. Mesmers and Thieves are the only 2 classes that can have the SAME build and be good at every aspect of the game. DD eles to some degree are like that but not quite as good (they can pull out a staff and zerg pretty good) and they have 1 build. Thieves and Mesmers not only does everything well they can do it with different builds and weapons sets too.

dandamanno.4136:

TheMightyAltroll.3485:

Heh, I thought he was thinking of Fire Grab only misplaced it on the Air attunement. Now that I think about it, I’ve rarely seen even Firegrab do that much.

Just to intercede again.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PD1S_sP90Ao

12.5k fire grab at the 7:40 mark.

Also, scepter attack 2 hits regularly in that video for close to 5000. It is traited for a 4 second cooldown.

I was actually speaking of PvP, not WvW. I rarely see a Firegrab reach, or exceed 8k damage. Also, Scepter 2 is in no way good compared to Mesmer shatter. The fact that Scepter 2 is incredibly hard to land negates it’s short cooldown. A shatter is very easy to land, does more damage, and has a short cooldown.

Mogar.9216:

Mesmer are oped. We are the only class other than thief that can get away with zerker gear. Sure at the highest skill level mesmer are maybe balanced vs other classes 1 v 1. But the fact is that you take 2 players of equal gear and equal skill outside of the top .1%. The one playing mesmer will win vs any other class other than thief. At the higher end skill level Mesmer is even better than thief.
Yes I play mesmer as main and I have geared 80 alts of both thief and Ele.

Edit: btw blurred frenzy + null field or arcane thief simply owns DD eles.

Your post highlights the problem with many nerf threads, or this is OP etc. Mesmers are not OP. Half the conversations about something being OP are about a specific build or builds anyway.

When someone says Ele is Op the first thing they think of is D/D bunker. If a mesmer is OP usually the first thing is Phantasm spec. If a thief is OP its usually d/p or any off hand dagger build. What about Staff Ele? Healing Mantra mesmer? P/P shortbow thief?

Its not about 1v1 seriously it just isn’t they are fun but people need to get it out of their heads for balance.

You said blurred frenzy, and null field, and thievery own a d/d ele. I can say churning earth and lightning flash owns a mesmer. All of those are easy to dodge outside of maybe blurred frenzy if it isnt setup routinely after iLeap. Also the only boon that a ele really cares about losing would be stability from armor of earth the rest are easy to get.

Anyway point is mesmers are fine they are not OP because they have probably the best 1v1 build in the game. 1v1 is some side meta the players came up with. The players always will find a way to duel if there is a means to do so. The players definitely did not balance the game around duels and didn’t care if it was balanced around duels when they started dueling. Now that more people duel people think it should be balanced around dueling a feature that is not officially supported in game.

Its like Oooh world record on lupicus kills. Ok cool there is no leader board for that and there isn’t any official statement on world records for lupi kills. If you go back say 3 months into the game all those threads for Worlds first legendary (insert name).

How do those people know they where first? They don’t they assumed it with no form of data to back it up at all. Made up achievements by players are just that made up and should be taken with a grain of salt.

Actually, Ozii. I consider Mesmers overpowered because of their Shatter build and how much it brings to the table in team fights.

Mesmers need an overall tone down with damage. Here is the proof. A heavy armor test dummy dies within 2 secs maybe a fraction of a second less than two seconds with an iduelist and extra shatter damage to spare.
Video-> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLHY5N1bBo