Guild Wars 2

A zerker necro is better than a 2nd warrior and I see multiple warriors all the time in zerker pugs. If a pug would allow multiple warriors there’s nothing wrong with bringing a zerker necro to that group.

Kaldrys.1978:

A zerker necro is better than a 2nd warrior and I see multiple warriors all the time in zerker pugs. If a pug would allow multiple warriors there’s nothing wrong with bringing a zerker necro to that group.

you are incorrect

[quote=4795112;Kaldrys.1978:]

Kaldrys.1978:

A zerker necro is better than a 2nd warrior and I see multiple warriors all the time in zerker pugs. If a pug would allow multiple warriors there’s nothing wrong with bringing a zerker necro to that group.

Pugs don´t stack might via PS or Ele. And a necro without might from other players is worse then another warrior.

Norjena.5172:

Kaldrys.1978:

A zerker necro is better than a 2nd warrior and I see multiple warriors all the time in zerker pugs. If a pug would allow multiple warriors there’s nothing wrong with bringing a zerker necro to that group.

Pugs don´t stack might via PS or Ele. And a necro without might from other players is worse then another warrior.

I’ve been in a lot of pugs that stack might. Even without, a Necro can self-stack better than a warrior can. If Warrior 1 is bringing the banners, then yes, a Zerker necro is better than a second warrior.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Norjena.5172:

Kaldrys.1978:

A zerker necro is better than a 2nd warrior and I see multiple warriors all the time in zerker pugs. If a pug would allow multiple warriors there’s nothing wrong with bringing a zerker necro to that group.

Pugs don´t stack might via PS or Ele. And a necro without might from other players is worse then another warrior.

I’ve been in a lot of pugs that stack might. Even without, a Necro can self-stack better than a warrior can. If Warrior 1 is bringing the banners, then yes, a Zerker necro is better than a second warrior.

Are you kidding me? Assuming dagger build, necro has only blood is power which means 10 stacks for 12secs per 24sec. Warrior has 239849287 might just by simply swinging his greatsword and ability to blast his own fire field many times. not to mention signet of rage and for great justice. even with death shroud build the might gain would be subpar compared to warrior (1 might per life blast 1 sec cast vs. 1 might fer crit with gs that cleaves and generates might faster)

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If Warrior 1 is bringing the banners, then yes, a Zerker necro is better than a second warrior.

Assuming 25 Might and both banners, an optimal PvE Necro has 9.1k DPS and a second optimal PvE A/M+GS Warrior has 11.3k DPS. For reference, a standard Staff Ele in the same group has 12.8k DPS. Those figures should be self-explanatory.

One Leman is always better than even above-average ele.
One average necro is always worse than even below-average warrior.

Jokes aside, necro sucks in PvE and no argument is able to fight the rigidity of maths that go into that evaluation.

I’m thinking Necro is going to be more useful come this expansion. Already in the new content (especially the Silverwastes) I’m definitely seeing some major changes that are anti-stacking, anti-power, pro-condi and/or pro- soft cc. The harder it is to stack as players on mobs and DPS them down, the less pure DPS matters and rather skirmish ability in PvE becomes more important. Power and Condi Necros are very good at being able to use their skills at mid to long ranges.

While playing VW it’s a total 180 degree difference between what feels useful compared to older content. My apothecary sustain Necro out controls, out damages (due to husks and loads of epidemic) and outplays (by never dieing and being able to support allies) my zerker Necro Life Blast build.

Playing as a Zerker Necro taking daggers seems sub-optimal in say VW/Silverwastes due to the massive mobility of the mobs. Chasing around spinning/charging mobs all over the place isn’t my idea of good DPS. You get a lot more mileage on LS2 content blasting away with penetrating/Might stacking life blasts and positioning within 600 range of targets, from an angle where you hit multiple enemies at once. Then you just spam LB for 5.5Kish-9K damage on 100% crits until everything is down.

This newer content is going to be an issue for any high DPS weapons/skills/classes that depend on stationary mobs. That’s assuming what we see in Silverwastes combined with Anet saying expansion content will be harder than ever is true. We could end up in a situation where just stacking and killing enemies faster is still most optimal. But again in the most recent content I have seen my Zerker necro outperform GS warriors in instance/open world LS2 content due to the nature of the fights. My Apothecary support Necro survives stuff that everyone else goes down on and I’m easily able to res those around me while being spiked like crazy. Even Zerker Necro seems to survive better than other zerker builds as there seems to be a lot more area and sudden damage in Mordrem fights that are easier to absorb with DS than time blocks/evades for.

Balekai.6083:

I’m thinking Necro is going to be more useful come this expansion. Already in the new content (especially the Silverwastes) I’m definitely seeing some major changes that are anti-stacking, anti-power, pro-condi and/or pro- soft cc. The harder it is to stack as players on mobs and DPS them down, the less pure DPS matters and rather skirmish ability in PvE becomes more important. Power and Condi Necros are very good at being able to use their skills at mid to long ranges.

While playing VW it’s a total 180 degree difference between what feels useful compared to older content. My apothecary sustain Necro out controls, out damages (due to husks and loads of epidemic) and outplays (by never dieing and being able to support allies) my zerker Necro Life Blast build.

Playing as a Zerker Necro taking daggers seems sub-optimal in say VW/Silverwastes due to the massive mobility of the mobs. Chasing around spinning/charging mobs all over the place isn’t my idea of good DPS. You get a lot more mileage on LS2 content blasting away with penetrating/Might stacking life blasts and positioning within 600 range of targets, from an angle where you hit multiple enemies at once. Then you just spam LB for 5.5Kish-9K damage on 100% crits until everything is down.

This newer content is going to be an issue for any high DPS weapons/skills/classes that depend on stationary mobs. That’s assuming what we see in Silverwastes combined with Anet saying expansion content will be harder than ever is true. We could end up in a situation where just stacking and killing enemies faster is still most optimal. But again in the most recent content I have seen my Zerker necro outperform GS warriors in instance/open world LS2 content due to the nature of the fights. My Apothecary support Necro survives stuff that everyone else goes down on and I’m easily able to res those around me while being spiked like crazy. Even Zerker Necro seems to survive better than other zerker builds as there seems to be a lot more area and sudden damage in Mordrem fights that are easier to absorb with DS than time blocks/evades for.

I’m not sure I agree with you on this…and especially not for the reasons you are citing. One of the man reasons for specialization is to provide options that are not currently availble to the class. This specialization is creating a new class…somewhat of a branch/sub class. This sub class is what is getting the GS, which in all likelihood…is going to be a melee weapon…which actually promotes stacking. One would also logically assume that getting a GS option on the sub class means also getting the supporting options to use a GS…such as stability and some method to block…maybe even some in-combat mobility on GS abilities. There has been no mention of any specifics though…so it is entirely unclear if the base class (necromancer) is actually getting any of the things fixed about it that makes it undesirable in pve. Hopefully, ANET does rework some of the failed experiments/adjustments to the base class while they have this opportunity.

I’m reasonably sure that ANET isn’t going to go out of their way to make players completely adjust their play style, by implementing some mechanic to make stacking impossible…as that is a common sense strategy that is completely optional for those who do not want to do it. I can see them including some mechanics that actually do make players disperse from a stack..versus staying stacked during an entire encounter though…they already have this in place in multiple encounters in game. What I take from ANET saying they are going to make encounters more challenging is to introduce mechanics that require the new mastery based abilities to complete. That idea has more synergy with what they have told us so far, than to assume ANET is going to cater to a whining minority in the game who wants to play range wars 2 instead of grouping up for max benefit.

What you are suggesting about the newer content is that it will invalidate any ability that you cannot use while not standing still, but that would require a rework of the majority of all previous abilities….I’m fairly positive ANET will not do that to themselves. Immobilizes, cripples, chills, pulls, etc are not going away either. Every class has these. Line of sight is also not going away, which is THE key component to stacking. The fact that the necro specialization is getting a GS, which will almost undoubtedly be a melee weapon that cleaves, leads me to believe that there will be a substantial amount of content with multiple mobs standing in close proximity to each other…that is optimal cleave content…which is optimal stacking content.

Open world content has never been any issue for necros, only dungeon/fractal content. No one would even care what build you are running around in the open world solo. Even pick up groups to do an event won’t care about your build. Dungeons, fractals, and possibly any new group based instanced content will be where the difference will be. They haven’t given much by way of specifics about the duration or difficulty of the new “adventures” or any new dungeons/fractals yet. Its all going to be about whether they are long enough for speed of completion to be a concern, whether they are solo or group based, etc. If they are the same as existing dungeons/fractals…then the existing necro will be just as undesired as always (assuming no fixes for existing woes).

@ODB

You don’t have to agree with me since I believe everything you say could possibly and could even likely be the case. Like I said the implementation could result in stacking and zerker gear still being the most optimal in new content regardless.

However, I never said that stacking will be impossible. Just that what we have now are enemies in the new content such as the Silverwastes which are a lot more mobile than previous PvE enemies. Not only more mobile but their mobility is more auto attack than a special skill used every 20 seconds. That means a lot more effort has to go into stacking enemies and keeping them there if you don’t burn them down fast enough. It also means that soft cc becomes more important as you can’t just rely on 1 pull/stack and DPS away. Instead you need to pull, stack and keep them there which will help Necros, especially with the addition of Necro GS that chills enemies for two seconds every 3 AAs (If Marjory’s attacks are anything to go by).

There’s the anti-stacking AoE effects by Teragriffs/Thrashers. The speed/knowdowns from wolves. Husks that pretty much reduce zerker damage to power secondary with no precision levels and apply unblockable roots etc. Trolls that heal targets or have invulnerable AoE bees. All this can really make it easy for stationary skills to miss their targets entirely if the proper precautions and cc aren’t applied. Also it’s a lot harder to be a zerker toon when theres so much random and unblockable/spamy AoE. That means skirmish skills become more reliable DPS and soft cc spam more important.

Not to mention so far we have had plenty of space to fight Mordrem and the content has been designed around open world and casual play in instances (just like personal story). We haven’t really fought in enclosed spaces or had difficult Mordrem content implemented for areas like Fractals and new dungeons.

Again it’s all in the implementation. Speed of completion is basically what they need to tackle with new mob AI, mechanics and player build possibilities. To even out the speed it takes to complete content they need to make it harder for glass cannon stack and kill enemies with no real risk. All while making it easier for non-DPS centric builds or condi builds have a role and advantage to play which ends up making the content go almost/just as fast, but a fair bit easier thus rewarding build and tactical diversity.

I’m glad that we’re getting GS though that better cleave and has chill. Just incase.

Lastly your comment about Range Wars 2…

I thought the whole issue with PvE for most people and not just a minority has been that unlike WvW and PvP, PvE content so far has been rather one dimensional, unchallenging, boring and repetitive in nature, due to the one stack fits all reality once the simplistic mob encounters are figured out. Don’t you think it would be more exciting to have Range Wars 2 that actually involves a lot more kiting, player positioning/repositioning, a wider variety of skills/builds, debuffs etc. than Stack Wars 2 which always involves the same 2-3 classes, wait, pull, stack 25 stacks of might spam the same 3 skills/auto attacks?

I know I would enjoy PvE content a lot more if this was the case.

If its easier then it should be slower. Which is how it is currently and will stay like that. But yeah they will probably increase base difficulty a bit. But id hardly call it much of a difference. Silverwaste mobs are far less challenging than many fractal mobs.

This idea of shifting to auto attack damage instead of one-shot mechanics is not necessarily a bad thing for zerk…not necessarily something zerk players haven’t asked for. It actually fits into the zerk play style better than this current one-shot model encounters are built around. It would force the use of support utilities and abilities (blinds, protection, weakness, regeneration, etc). Zerk builds have ample access to these things. I’m specifically mentioning zerk because of the trend of your post…mentioning non-zerk builds and the general fact that zerk is the build that primarily benefits from stacking. I’m getting the impression your posts are coming from more of an anti-zerk origin than a “necros are getting fixed” origin?

Yes, there are mechanics in the game even now, that are more harmful to zerk players/stackers than the alternative. That actually is a good thing. It does open up diversity in playstyle, but it does not and should not force a change of build/stats. What it does do is add strategy and depth, to a degree, to encounters. It makes it important to also carry a ranged weapon. It makes important to change traits from time to time to match an encounter. What it should not do is alienate a large section of the player base by forcing them into a completely different play style.

The things you mention as breaking stacking are the holy grails of the non zerk community. Fast auto attackers that make low hp builds (zerk) unplayable, persistent/spammy aoe/pervasive unblockable attacks. They seem to be constantly looking to force the zerk community to adapt to their play style…the same thing they vehemently reject from the zerk community when the same is expected from them. I think ANET has enough of a grasp on the game to know that it is not in anyone’s best interest to start forcing one specific play style. Once you start loading up the majority of content with unblockable attacks. Encounters that can only be ranged. Encounters with constant unavoidable aoe. Encounters that force you to build/gear for vitality/toughness/healing power to be able to survive/complete…then it ceases to be fun and removes the diversity you seem to want. Currently the pve content can be cleared by any build…that is diversity. Like Spoj said, some builds are supposed to be slower. Those slower builds have higher individual survivability as a result. That’s the trade off. You aren’t supposed to have the cake after you eat it.

Again it’s all in the implementation. Speed of completion is basically what they need to tackle with new mob AI, mechanics and player build possibilities. To even out the speed it takes to complete content they need to make it harder for glass cannon stack and kill enemies with no real risk. All while making it easier for non-DPS centric builds or condi builds have a role and advantage to play which ends up making the content go almost/just as fast, but a fair bit easier thus rewarding build and tactical diversity.

This quote from your post exemplifies what I am referring to. The entire vein of this quote is not pro-necro…its anti-zerk. Its not about improving necros or hopes for the new specialization…its all about finding ways to take fun away from anyone not playing vitality/toughness/healing power. Its filled with the same worn out and completely incorrect propaganda about how zerk has no risk, content should be made harder for zerk in order to make your safe builds more attractive, and that safe builds should have comparable completion speeds as zerk builds. You even go on to mention providing advantages to non zerk builds. What you seem to either not realize is that these safe builds do have an inherent advantage….its survivability. Its exactly what you guys are building for when you choose toughness/vitality/healing power. None of those stats equal speed of killing. Why are you so unhappy with getting exactly what you built for? It really is hypocrisy to expect to buy a mini van and expect to drive at race car speeds. Its hypocrisy to expect to have the freedom to build/gear how you want, and expect ANET to force other players to build your way instead of how they want.

Lastly your comment about Range Wars 2…

I thought the whole issue with PvE for most people and not just a minority has been that unlike WvW and PvP, PvE content so far has been rather one dimensional, unchallenging, boring and repetitive in nature, due to the one stack fits all reality once the simplistic mob encounters are figured out. Don’t you think it would be more exciting to have Range Wars 2 that actually involves a lot more kiting, player positioning/repositioning, a wider variety of skills/builds, debuffs etc. than Stack Wars 2 which always involves the same 2-3 classes, wait, pull, stack 25 stacks of might spam the same 3 skills/auto attacks?

I know I would enjoy PvE content a lot more if this was the case.

As far as ranged weapons go, I always keep a ranged weapon on my characters…although I really hate some of the ranged options or lack thereof. What I mean by ranged wars 2 is when players absolutely refuse to enter melee range on any encounter and cause additional problems for the team as a result. Dying half way across the map instead of being close enough to get picked up. Playing out of range so the team gets no benefit from their combo fields. Causing mobs to run erratically back and forth between them and other players. Pulling extra groups onto the team unexpectedly by backing into them…from trying to be at max range. I fully acknowledge there are some encounters and parts of encounters that are more effective at range…and I play them appropriately. The problem is when others do not play them appropriately for either RP reasons or “safety/lazy” reasons.

PvE is not one-dimensional like some of these players want you to believe. Yes, the AI could use some work in older encounters, but that is apparently being improved upon just like you are saying. Encounters like Mai Trin, Mordrem thrashers, etc….are adding more dimensions to PvE combat. I actually look forward to content like those encounters/mobs. What those encounters do not do is invalidate any specific gear set. They do not make it suicide to build as zerker or even make a different gear set/stat better artifically. A skilled player in zerk/assassins gear will still kill those mobs faster than the alternative in a diff gear set…which matches the risk versus reward paradigm in these types of games. There is no one stack fits all reality in this game…there are just players who latch onto one specific thing and can’t see outside of it. Some of those think they have to stack for every encounter…some of those think they have to range for every encounter. Some of those think they are still playing a different game and need to only tank or only heal to support their team…they think they should do that instead of helping kill the mobs.

Currently, it is not the same 2-3 classes in groups…the only class that really doesn’t fit right now is the necro. Even rangers have an acceptable build in dungeons/fractals…its just that the majority of them make a bad name for the rest. The same can be said for staff guardians. This acceptable build is about bringing utility to the group..versus an alternative. There only real limit to the range of skills used is the players not making use of things in their kitten nal. Yes…there are skills that are garbage…but there are a lot of under utilized utilities and weapon abilities. Again, what you seem to be wanting is not diversity or improvment, but exclusion. You seem to want zerk/assassins to be rendered nigh unplayable….that’s not positive for anyone.

My problem isn’t with Zerker gear, but to balance out its usefulness comparable to PvP/WvW by fixing the cause of the issue not the symptom. For the longest time it has naturally been the most optimal solution for 95% of higher PvE content. I believe the Necromancer class not being wanted is also a symptom of the exact same cause. Enemy AI and mechanic design is so simplistic that counterplay and kiting is almost non existent in PvE and when it is, it’s easily timed and telegraphed. We are built for counterplay with soft cc, boon/condi conversion and a weird mix of harassment without escapes. We seem so selfish in PvE because we can’t use most of our tools on PvE mobs since they don’t have boons, do not kite, do not use heavy amounts of condis etc.

We will never be truly be wanted in PvE until this is addressed, because to balance Necromancer for PvE as it is now (stacking, stack might, stability then melee burn) would make us utterly overpowered in PvP/WvW. Anet will never truly “go there” as the last couple years have shown. It’s not propaganda it’s reality. Anet refuses to make us clones of other classes by giving us even self stability (which makes sense) or area might stacking (which doesn’t), blocks, stealth and the like.

Zerker teams have advantage in both survivability and speed due to very little to absolutely no risk in stacking or rushing bosses/mobs. AI and combat mechanics are easily overcome, reducing the length of fights unnaturally to mere seconds minimizing the need to kiting, skill usage and counterplay almost entirely. Basically you’re not really fighting. You’re bursting down content before it even has a chance to respond in kind.

Balanced or diverse teams do not have an advantage of survivability because combat mechanics are so easily overcome regardless and tougher teams actually have a harder time, because they have to spend a lot more time with kiting, boss phases and counterplay as the fights progress. There’s a lot more time for things to go wrong. Actually if you go too lopsided in the support arena there is a lot of content that can’t completed in Dungeons and Fractals without major problems (or flat out don’t have the DPS to complete).

The way it should be is this:

You want a team of glass cannons? Then be ready to wipe utterly if you are not perfect on every move you do and skill you use. You should be weapon swapping between melee/range and dieing to AoEs and other combat damage just like in PvP/WvW if you’re not careful. You should be having to counter boon stripping and condi application or a regular basis or die. You should have problems with enemies using things like blinds, protection, weakness messing up for burst damage. enemies should make it hard for you to stack and burst. However, if you’re good enough and knowledgeable enough you should still be the faster kids on the block for completing content, but just really really dangerous.

If you want a full support team be ready to take forever to complete content, but still be a slow moving and near unstoppable juggernaut that can eventually complete the dungeon and actually kill the boss.

Balanced, diverse and well thought out teams that are able to tackle many different aspects of encounters and support eachother other than just might and stability stacks, should be rewarded for such at the expense of some speed/damage and in some cases, fights should be easier and faster for balanced groups compared to lopsided unbalanced ones.

This is how a Necromancer becomes useful just as we are in WvW/PvP with GWEN play. Give us a chance to use our liberal weapon ranges/AoE, soft ccs and condi/boon counterplay to its fullest. Zerker gear still has its place in PvP/WvW and there is absolutely no reason why it would be looked down upon. You still need to do damage and zerker gear is a good way to get a lot of damage into one toon.

There’s always this argument that making PvE more diverse, anti-stack and mobs use boons, condis, dodges, regular AoEs etc. is somehow going to make zerker builds obsolete. The truth is there are so many builds, item sets and arguably classes (Necros) that are seen as useless in the current game design at this very moment. The expansion is a chance you change this for future content and I hope they do so we can stop complaining about how we have no use in PvE.

Necros being unwanted is not a symptom of the zerker meta. If condis were part of the meta necros would still be unwanted. Warriors and engis do condi damage much better. Even mesmer does to a certain extent.

ODB is correct in that it really just looks like you are just speaking from an anti zerk perspective. If you truly cared about necros and not the whole meta thing you would ask for things which allow necro to fit into the game in its current format. That means bending to the meta to a certain degree. In other words giving us meaningful support, utility and group buffing (Making us less selfish).

Plus kiting is actually very prevalent in high level fractals. Its just done at max melee range with melee weapons. And saying there is no risk when stacking shows how little you know. Also stacking is an out of date tactic now (pugs are slow to adapt). The meta is to stack might and fight the bosses where they spawn in melee (i guess thats sort of stacking?). Dungeons are old content so its no wonder they are easy for organised glass groups. But looking at your knowledge im guessing you have never run in a full glass group for fractal 50. There is serious risk in fractals when doing that.

The content will never be at the point where they actually allow effective CC..soft or otherwise on bosses. You can get some extremely brief cc to be partially effective, but ANET has shown they are not going to let you control bosses like that.

This is a casual based game, so they are always going to provide visible telegraphs for boss moves. They have to make it easy enough for extreme casuals to clear the content with ease.

Kiting is not non existent…it is just the last resort because it is slower than melee. Partially due to the inherent downtime of running away instead of constantly attacking, the projectile travel times, and projectile misses.

Necros are seen as selfish because they use conditions instead of boons to accomplish support. Conditions are weaker than boons (weakness vs protection is a prime example). Conditions show up on the enemy…not on your teammates buff bars (psychological factor). Those two reasons are going to make necros seem more selfish than they actually are. It has nothing to do with encounter design and AI.

Condi removal is an important factor, its just that multiple classes do that well…the others that do it well bring valuable party support tools like boons and reflects where the necro does not.

You keep going back to the propaganda that zerk teams have little to no risk. That will be true if the team is actually all zerk AND skilled AND brings the proper utilities. That’s the same for a mixed or non zerk team. The trade off is, again, survivability vs speed. I have seen many unskilled zerk teams fail miserably..constantly downed and having to repeat encounters. Players rage quitting due to these constant fails. Warriors who will not use warbanner. Guards who will not use reflect or their virtues or condi cleanse. Zerk mesmers who will only use a GS. At the same time, I’ve seen PVT groups faceroll through high level fractals in decent time despite constant mistakes. So yeah…this no risk you are talking about is propaganda. I spend the majority of my fractal time in random LFG pugs. I’ve had to quit many a group that was majority zerk because they couldn’t get past content. I have been in flawless zerk pugs and terrible ones….so yes…I am ready to wipe utterly…as that already happens. What I am not ready for is for the content to be made intentionally difficult for one gear set/build to appease another gear set/build that is jealous of speed of completion. Again, what you are talking about has nothing to do with making PvE more diverse…you are trying to pressure players to adopt a different play style. I’m pretty sure ANET has the stats on how it is not just zerk players clearing content.

The way a necromancer becomes useful in PvE is for ANET to give up on their flavor concepts of the necromancer of being a unique snowflake in PvE. It needs access to the basic utility boons that every other PvE class has and the basic weapon utilities that every other PvE class has. I’m not talking about might stacking either. I’m talking about stability and blocks mostly. They could even rework DS to make it not allow you to get downed through DS again..to provide the block functionality. The no healing while in DS without fully traiting death magic doesn’t help either.

I never said Necros being useless was due to Zerker meta. I made it quite clear that Zerker meta and Necros not having a real role are both symptoms of the same underlying problem: Sub-optimal AI and mob combat mechanics in PvE. I honestly don’t care about full zerker teams, but they’re performance in PvE compared to other groups/builds shows glaring problems in design and is a great example of where mechanics fail the older the content. Again Zerker gear is not the problem.

It’s simple. We have roles in both WvW and PvP (GWEN). Why? Because humans are smarter than AI and use boons, blocks, evades, kiting and get out of the way of AoE. So is the problem really that we don’t have access to enough stuff or is it that enemies in PvE aren’t complicated or refined enough for Necros to have a role? I think its the latter. The solution for Necros could very well be to make PvE AI act more like real players. Not only would you be fixing Necromancer, but would make higher content more challenging in a multi-dimensional way. Wouldn’t it be nice to have bosses not dependent on hard-set gazillion hp/damage, but instead using boon stacks and soft cc? That way we as casuals and experienced players could use things like boon stripping to make the fight easier and faster?

On the point about fractals. Full glass group really isn’t that kitten level 50 fractals. It’s actually easier and easier to see when you run multiple armor sets depending on situations or your mood that day. Sure it can be a challenge if someone isn’t pulling their weight, but for the most part by the time you get to level 50 fractal difficulty (which honestly isn’t that long), you know what you’re doing. Fractals is better of course than dungeon content for difficulty, but simple Zerker DPS and stacking still wins out in the end.

I honestly don’t get the mentality of asking for things for Necro “to fit the meta” in PvE when it clearly doesn’t fit the class without an utter rework of everything or else cause major imbalances in PvP/WvW. First of all Anet does not balance around PvE. They balance around PvP, WvW then PvE in that order. Secondly the meta is area might stacks, area stability, fire/water fields and reflect. Does anyone truly think that Necromancers in addition to what we have are ever going to have access to area might? How about area stability application? Fire fields? Reflects? Blocks + DS (I could eat dirt on this with new GS)? Top DPS in say death shroud over warriors and eles? No.

Anet is most likely never going to make each class clones of each other and specializations seem to suggest a move in the opposite direction. The only way I see this happening is if specializations make us lose certain aspects of our current classes. Then maybe Necros will get stuff like area might and other boon goodies.

The most we will realistically get is more access to self might/stability which is unlikely and still has no effect on teammates which is what is required for the “meta.” Even then that’s a low probability because we have plenty of access to soft cc, area condis, skirmish power damage and death shroud. Anet is really hung up over for balancing when it comes to those for Necro and three years should tell us they’re not changing their minds. We’re lucky to get what appears to be a cleaving GS with soft chill cc auto attack.

Instead what the focus should be is changing the cause for the meta in the first place that causes Necros to not have a role, which brings us back to the problem simplistic and one dimension AI and combat mechanics in PvE. If enemy AI used more boons, boon stripping, condi application, mobility etc. then without any changes to Necro, our role in PvE would become more important over night.

With the new content in the Silverwastes there seems to be a lot more condi application, less telegraphed AoE, more regular AoE usage, greater mobility of mobs and more importance surrounding condition damage. We’re even seeing dedicated healing mobs and special mechanics like resistance against normal damage, or increased damage to enemies based on which direction damage is coming from. Thus soft area cc, conditions and more mobile/flexible forms of DPS become more important. This is all good news for Necromancers and a step in the right direction for us. The only thing I see missing is boon application and boon stripping among enemies (so far).

Regardless, if the Silverwastes AI and combat mechanics are carried over into harder expansion content with further additions to mob kitten nals, then naturally this increases the role of Necromancers in PvE making us more viable. More viability means less uselessness or perceived uselessness. Which was the original point I was making.

This has been explained so clearly, so many times, so I’m going to assume that it is not that you don’t get this…but that you don’t want to get this. I’ll repeat one last time and I’m done. The reason necros are not wanted in higher end PvE instanced content is because of their lack of party support via boons and utilities, weak cleave options, and the ineffectiveness of condis vs direct damage. Higher end PvE instanced content is about each player providing things that keep the other players alive and help kill the mobs faster. If you aren’t bringing that more than the next class…then you aren’t wanted versus that next class. The encounter design can change, but that basic set up isn’t going away.

ANET already came out and told us that the specializations are not going to inherit all of the mechanics, utilities, abilities, or traits of the base class. They will be a sub/branch class. Which means they are not bound by the same restrictions the base class is bound by. This makes any assumptions of what they aren’t going to get invalid. We just have to wait and see.

At this point, I’m definitely not saying anything that has not been said already, so I’m just going to let this go.

This thread made my new level 80 necro a sad panda
I’m the kinda guy that enjoys WvW, PvP, PvE, and all aspects of the game but being say a power necro in Silverwastes seemed extremely hard. Wonder what one should reroll as :P

Azeriath.7354:

This thread made my new level 80 necro a sad panda
I’m the kinda guy that enjoys WvW, PvP, PvE, and all aspects of the game but being say a power necro in Silverwastes seemed extremely hard. Wonder what one should reroll as :P

Extremely hard? Eh? Power necros are great in open PvE just drop a well or two and go full dagger berserk on the mobs, killing 5 at the same time. If they hit you, heal and go ds until you can heal again. Silverwastes is easy. In sPvP I am frequently getting top player with only some 10 hours experience. And WvW is decent too, zerging is fantastic compared to my Mesmer though I havent yet mastered roaming (1.5 years vs 3 weeks is a little different for knowing a class lol).

High level instances I can agree that necro doesnt bring much. Dont even play that though.

Ye the mobs are easy, was more refering to the bosses but I guess it’s just a matter of dodging at the right times

ODB.6891:

This has been explained so clearly, so many times, so I’m going to assume that it is not that you don’t get this…but that you don’t want to get this. I’ll repeat one last time and I’m done. The reason necros are not wanted in higher end PvE instanced content is because of their lack of party support via boons and utilities, weak cleave options, and the ineffectiveness of condis vs direct damage. Higher end PvE instanced content is about each player providing things that keep the other players alive and help kill the mobs faster. If you aren’t bringing that more than the next class…then you aren’t wanted versus that next class. The encounter design can change, but that basic set up isn’t going away.

While you have some good points, I feel Balekai has the right of it. It’s one thing to say “this is the meta, and Necros just don’t fit,” but Balekai is asking why is that really the meta? In PvP and WvW, the most skilled players usually don’t wear Zerker gear and never stack & smack. Why do you think that is?

Necros are good/decent in areas where we are facing other players, but not against mobs. Again, why do you think that is?

Balekai, I believe, has hit the nail on the head. Most enemies are just designed such that what Necros do bring just isn’t any help against them compared to other professions. Mordrem, toxic alliance, and aetherblades were all designed in ways that what Necros bring is actually useful.

Consider the husks at triple trouble. Necros are actually in demand for husk teams because of Epidemic and good condition damage in their own right.

I predict that in Heart of Thorns, Necros will become far more desirable if the AI is more advanced than current Mordrem.

Thats not true. Its not that enemies arent designed for what necro has. Its that necros arent designed to contribute to efficiency. The PvE gametype is about controlling AI which means the most effective tactic is to use group buffing and control conditions to protect yourself. Necro doesnt fit into a group buff or defensive utility role and so it has no place. Even if mobs suddenly became more like PvP players you would still see an ele centered meta. Because eles bring everything in terms of control conditions, defensive utility and damage + blasts galore and perma fury. PvE is a gametype where boons and buffs are more important that debuffs. Thats not going to change. And it doesnt help that other classes have really good access to both.

The reason necros are fine in WvW is because of the severe unavoidable aoe spam in zergs and necros base high durability. If it werent for that you would see most necros replaced by eles. It really is as simple as that.

And also the triple trouble demand for condi necros is based on ignorance and the fact that you cant blacklist certain classes in open world. Warriors and engis are far superior at condi damage. Necros are pretty weak by comparison. In an organised triple trouble run epidemic is mostly useless.

Theres actually really simple ways to bring necro into a really good position. And that is to give them blast finishers and a projectile block or some other utility. In an organised run the composition is made from eles for damage and might, warriors for buffs, thief for stealth and mesmer/guard for portal/utility/reflect/stability. If you give necro some of the latter necro can now be part of the optimum compositions as an alternative to guard/mesmer. Then you have a good casual group class like engi which can perma immobalise which completely disables bosses like arch diviner in an organised group. They also have an abundance of other utility to varying degrees.

No, that is the case now. It very much can change with different design. PvE can very easily become a place where debuffs are much more effective than buffs.

I agree, Necros do need a few things, namely finishers (blasts or whirls, either would work) and some projectile defense (since they are literally the only class with none). I don’t agree that AI changes would not be able to drastically alter the meta.

The harsh truth is we dont do control conditions better than most other classes. So we wont see an improvement unless the specialisation gives us more. There is literally nothing necro does better than any other class except maybe chill. But ele and engi have plenty enough chill for necro to not matter if we actually need chill for something.

I am holding out for improvements on the specialisation. But im calling it now. The base class will still be just as terrible for PvE in HoT even with more challenging and improved AI.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

No, that is the case now. It very much can change with different design. PvE can very easily become a place where debuffs are much more effective than buffs.

I agree, Necros do need a few things, namely finishers (blasts or whirls, either would work) and some projectile defense (since they are literally the only class with none). I don’t agree that AI changes would not be able to drastically alter the meta.

Care to explain how PvE can “very easily become a place where debuffs are much more effective than buffs”?

Sublimatio.6981:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

No, that is the case now. It very much can change with different design. PvE can very easily become a place where debuffs are much more effective than buffs.

I agree, Necros do need a few things, namely finishers (blasts or whirls, either would work) and some projectile defense (since they are literally the only class with none). I don’t agree that AI changes would not be able to drastically alter the meta.

Care to explain how PvE can “very easily become a place where debuffs are much more effective than buffs”?

Lots of boon stripping, but not much condition removal.

Kinda like Mesmer builds :p

In a more subtle sense, look at Mordrem teragriffs. They aren’t that hard to kill even without boons, but their charge attack is really, really rough. Cripple, chill, and immobilize are all incredibly important to use against them. Trying to melee them without those conditions is rather difficult. Sure, you can dodge to avoid the damage and knockdown, but now the Teragriff is waaaay over there and your DPS drops to 0. If you were trying to range it instead, now it’s likely in your face.

Are they only one example? Yes, but they are an excellent case where debuffs are more important than buffs.

A hypothetical one that is likely to come is enemies that use their endurance bar. Against those, Weakness on the target is better than Protection on yourself, because it is a similar damage reduction level, but more importantly, it drastically limits their dodging.

Yet another with Weakness is enemies that crit frequently or have high Ferocity (or both!). Since a glancing blow is half the non-crit damage, Weakness can prove to be more effective than Protection as damage mitigation.

And those debuffs can be done in abundance by other classes. The boon strip is the only solution that might hold any weight. But thats bound to just kitten people off. Besides good groups will probably find ways to counter it by interrupting. Thus the meta remains unchanged but requires a bit more coordination.

Other professions can do those, sure. But how much damage do they have to sacrifice for those?

Rangers don’t really have to change much for cripple, since that naturally comes in their high-damage rotation (sword auto), but Warriors would. Weakness is likewise not a part of damage rotations on most professions. You know who has both in their highest damage rotations? Necros. Who has strong condition clearing in their high-damage builds? Necros, Rangers, and staff Eles. Who has boon stripping in their damage rotations? Necros and Mesmers.

Saying “but other classes can do X better” is true (other than cripple and chill, Necros are easily applying 100% uptime of both), but it depends how much sacrifice they have to make to do X better on whether or not the meta changes. Necros really don’t have to make sacrifices to debuff well. Other professions do.

They barely have to sacrifice anything for those control conditions. Eles have frozen ground on staff and chill on icebow. Engis have chill on nade kit. Engi’s only need to take net turret and rotate with rifle for perma immob. Ranger has entangle, warrior has sword burst skill and throw bola (minor sacrifices considering the role a warrior has), thief has sword immob, guard has scepter and hammer if needed, mesmer has sword and ele has dagger earth 3 or staff earth 5. Plenty of immob and its almost all on standard meta build weapons. Cripple is in abundance for warrior on axe and gs. Thief also has a spammable cripple on offhand dagger.

I could go on and on but im sure you understand what im getting at. Theres just no reason to take a necro purely for debuffs when all classes can easily contribute to them in plenty on their own and while also providing other more useful utility at the same time.

Weakness is interesting because necro actually doesnt have that great access to it in their damage rotation. They get 2 seconds every 10 seconds through weakening shroud. Its true other classes do also have to make sacrifices for it. However a thief gets it on dagger auto attack through a minor trait and they also have a poison field on shortbow. And you literally almost always run shortbow on offhand for the blasts and mobility because you dont need two different melee sets in a single fight on a thief. Then theres also engis poison field. And warrior can often afford to take warhorn without losing much damage.

Necros do not have strong condi cleansing in their damage builds. They have a selfish cleanse though. Eles, engis, thieves, rangers and guardians all have free group cleanses without changing builds/utilities at all. Mesmer usually has free utility slots for most fights so they also get a no sacrifice group condi cleanse.

I conceded you may have a point with boon strips. But i also pointed out that good groups will most likely find better ways to counter the mechanic. For example by using interrupts. And if not then they will just take a mesmer (has more frequent boon strips) or a guardian with searing flames trait.

A lot of great discussion here. I tend to lean toward Spoj’s PoV. A core premise of the game is that every profession should be able to fill any role. Therefore, every profession should have a condition build, if not more than one.

Where does that leave Necromancer? The developers have consistently been pushing Necromancer toward a face-tanking power role. Even minion buffs support that.

While the new weapon is probably a power weapon, too, it may, if we are lucky, add a mobility skill to make Necromancer even more like every other profession. After all, they made the other professions debuffers, condi cleansers, and gave them options for sustain, too.

Even if they made amazing AI, best boss encounters you can imagine it would change nothing on fact that necro has almost 0 group utility, the most boring DPS rotation since TBC destruction warlock in WoW (year 2007 !!!… literally just 1 skill ) and is not better in anything than other classes…. there is no reason whatsoever why pick necro over other class for instanced content.

Necro in GW2 is the worst designed class in all MMOs that I’ve ever played and need complete overhaul.

@Spoj

Here’s the thing though with those other classes. It’s easy to name off the skills and traits other classes have and say “You don’t need Necros” and really that’s the way the game was originally designed for (Not “needing” anyone class). However, just based off knowledge of skills, playstyles and checking wiki when in doubt, their access has problems of their own and are not necessarily better nor more dependable compared to Necros.

For example on your Chill examples:

- Ele: Frozen Ground is on a 40 sec CD and you have to be in water attunement to cast. Conjure Ice Bow’s Frost Fan is a multi hit piercing chill skill, but on a 15 charge utility weapon that also has a 60s CD. Also elementals but they have to be casted in Water Attunement, are situational and can easily die in PvE. Then you have other weapon chill skills which would cancel out using Frozen Ground due to Staff having to go bye bye.

- Engie: Their AoE chill is 2s on a 15 CD skill on a kit.

- Necros: 5 seconds of chill on Spinal Shivers for 20s CD which also happens to be a boon stripper with more DPS per boon. Chillblains on staff for 4 seconds of AoE chill and 6 seconds of poison on a 20s CD. Dark Path in DS for 5s of AoE chill on teleport. Then there’s other skills and traits like Well of Corruption (via boon conversion), Spectral Grasp, Chilling Darkness, Chill on Death etc. Oh yeah and we’re likely getting a GS that applies 2 seconds of cleave chill on a chain that takes only 2-3 seconds to complete on auto attacks. Basically if we don’t have the near the best chill access now, we likely will on expansion release.

This is the same for things like weakness, poison, other soft CCs and the nature of weapon attacks etc. When you can go down into the dirty details comparing Necro role performance to other classes skill for skill, in most cases when you play out how this works ingame rather than just on paper, the Necro has more natural access to their soft cc, AoE application, boon/condi control and in many cases, are on the same commonly used skills/weapon roations. We also have the only boon to condition conversion and Epidemic which could be helpful for getting even more out of soft cc.

The question becomes if condis, soft cc and boon stripping become more important in PvE, all while mob encounters become a lot more chaotic, harder to tackle, and play around with boons/condis/strips, why not take one power Necro that can still be optimal while blasting away LBs while kiting, fulfilling boon stripping/conversion roles instead of mucking up another class(es)’ role? Why not just take one Condi Necro that can re-propagate all the condis already applied to one target to AoE max condi damage while doubling the duration of already applied soft cc in the area? Especially when there’s going to be mobs out there that reduce Zerker damage to nearly base stat levels?

These are questions that are not asked yet because these roles haven’t truly existed in PvE content. AI boon stacking and AI stripping player boons has been missing from action which is why Might/Stability meta has been so overwhelming compared to soft ccs. Asking for access to things other professions do well and be on par with them, on top of the already multi-purpose skills/roles we have, weapon synergy and Death Shroud mechanics, would make us unbalanced and OP in PvP/WvW. Our best bet is a change in meta due to better PvE AI and combat so that what we have already actually becomes more useful. Which honestly benefits all profession diversity and is more likely to be addressed by Anet (and is actually being addressed).

The object is not to make us the undisputed “best” at doing any one thing in PvE although that sure would be nice. The realistic goal is to make us a viable primary choice or alternative choice in group formation for certain roles in PvE. There’s a lot of room in between “useless and unwanted” and “Best must have class with no other options for fulfilling x role(s).”

Brahmincorle.1264:

Even if they made amazing AI, best boss encounters you can imagine it would change nothing on fact that necro has almost 0 group utility, the most boring DPS rotation since TBC destruction warlock in WoW (year 2007 !!!… literally just 1 skill ) and is not better in anything than other classes…. there is no reason whatsoever why pick necro over other class for instanced content.

Necro in GW2 is the worst designed class in all MMOs that I’ve ever played and need complete overhaul.

That’s not going to happen so any other ideas other then switching classes?

I hope we get more team support in other ways like more self stability and some reworks to DS and life steal sustain. Maybe make Putrid Mark a condi cleanser for allies again. One thing I’m hoping for are orders utility skills like GW1, being modestly underpowered team DPS buffs but counterless for GW2. That’s different though then wanting Necros to have access to things like area might stacks and area stability which doesn’t make sense for the class on top of what we already have.

As for bosses I could definitely see a use for necros and already do sometimes.

Power/DS Necros would perform and do perform well in encounters that require lots of constant kiting with heavy/constant AoE being applied by bosses/mobs. Change future instanced boss encounters so that they rely on self stacking boons and there’s a Necro role.

Condi Necros perform best when there’s a lot of respawning adds that need to be dealt with and controlled during boss battles. Any soft cc and condi stacks on a boss can easily burn down adds with Epidemic. With the addition of healing/buffing mobs in recent boss fights, propagating those poisons, cripples, chills, weakness, bleeds and burning with Epi would make them heal themselves instead of the boss, use their skills much less often, at a less effective rate and eventually die from all the condi stacks. This would allow the rest of the team or zerg to focus a lot more on DPSing the boss itself while one condi necro or a couple with condis and epidemic are pretty much dealing with adds.

The problem you’re ignoring is what those classes sacrifice to provide the utility being mentioned. Most of the classes provide it with their meta weapon like Engis and Eles. Necromancer doesn’t use focus. Mesmer can remove boons with their meta wepaon. No content will ever require perma chill or weakness to beat an encounter. At most they’ll have unique times to use them. And at that, other classes do it better.

If you want a class to do poor damage to provide these things, Necromancer still wouldn’t be it because a Ranger can provide perma chill and weakness with the same weapon. Warrior can provide perma weakness with tons of other utility.

While I admire your goal, simple fact still remains that Necromancers provide subpar damage and no utility. They are the least effective PvE class in this game. Even if they introduced encounters that needed specific mechanics tailored around things the Necromancer provides, they still would be inferior to alternative classes.

There’s nothing wrong with being a selfish class. Overall, Thieves don’t provide too much to the group, but they get invites because their damage is significantly ahead of all but 1 class. Increasing Necro sustain to this level would get the class noticed and it would be quite easy to do without breaking PvP or WvW. Alternatively, give the class only a moderate increase in overall sustained damage but up the group utility some.

But no matter what the problem relates to damage and utility of the class, not the zerk meta or the straight forward approach to PvE content. No one wants to be the anchor in a group brought only because some niche role 1 encounter requires a necro for. The class should be vital regardless and those niche encounters you’re fighting for should be the icing on the cake.

I was naming those from personal experience but ok. The things i mentioned are used in various places such as fractals on a regular basis. If they werent as good as a necros ability to use control conditions then necros would be meta for fractals. They are not, so we can assume that control is not something necro has an advantage on.

And this is the thing. I go on necro and i have an easier time surving trash groups. But overall i feel a lot less useful because at best i provided a slow pulse blind and some minor aoe. This isnt going to change with new AI. Because our control conditions are no better than any other class. And an entire group of decent classes can cover all the bases without wasting a slot on a necro. Our only hope is the specialisation. You guys really need to get your heads out of the clouds and accept that.

PS. Fractal 50 trash mobs are far more challenging than mordrem. So dont give me the arguement that more challenging trash mobs will make necros good. Yes they make you use more control and control conditions. But as i said necros have no real advantage when it comes to control. Its a common misconception built on the fact that we have nothing else to define ourselves with.

Edit:
@Atherakhia
Necro does use focus btw (reapers touch op). But its a high cast time single target chill. Not much use on trash mobs. :P

And thieves get invited to groups because of spammable blasts, blinds and stealth. Give necro plenty of blasts and we would definitely be more welcome in casual groups.

Or maybe because right now there’s more eles doing level 50 fractals since they probably make up a bigger pop than necros and they also bring more to the current meta with staff and ice bow other than just chills, which aren’t truly needed in the current meta. Which is absolutely fine as things stand now because its natural for the content.

Sure an entire group of “decent” classes can cover what a Necro does but they have to set up for those roles. Even at a little sacrifice to DPS could add up over 5 teammates. The whole point is to make taking necro not a “waste” but an asset to let others do their thing. That’s accomplished by newer and better encounter/combat AI and design. What if in this future content its much easier to get through content with someone rolling a condi build? All of sudden that’s a big gaping whole where an AoE condi necro with epidemic can fit in quite nicely and no one has to sacrifice any DPS for utilities/traits they would otherwise not take.

Also by your very argument what makes you think that anyone would bring Necros anyways if we got buffs that gave us the roles of other classes but still sub-par due to balance? By your reasoning we still wouldn’t get groups because we wouldn’t be the best at any one thing. If we were just as good or better at doing other classes roles then what would be the point of running those other classes by your reasoning?

The answer may be to moderately buff the abilities of our soft cc, our sustain and how we support teammates with more specialized/unique utilities (like the orders idea). The answer isn’t giving us the same thing as other classes but not as good in addition to what we already have and unbalancing PvP/WvW for little to no benefit in PvE if your logic is correct.

Of course Fractals level 50 is harder than Mordrem mobs. Mordrem content is all open world and personal story-like stuff on par with maybe level 0-10 fractals. It’s not supposed to be hard it’s all casual play. However, the new mechanics obviously could offer more of a challenge than older mechanics and this shows even in LS content. Like I said before, if this is translated into harder content like difficult open areas, new dungeons and new fractals, it could change the meta in our favour and give us a role or two to play.

Again we have roles, even important roles at times in PvP/WvW and we don’t have a role in PvE. What’s the difference? Human brains bringing everything to the table vs. simplistic AI that doesn’t use 1/4 of the combat mechanics in the game. Give AI better path finding and use the other 3/4 of combat mechanics to make them act more like players, thus giving us something to counter.

Seriously, quit comparing Fratal 50 mobs to mobs that have never been seen in dungeons or fractals.

Of course something with triple the stats is going to be more difficult than a better designed mob with regular stats. Instead of comparing what is equivalent to an uplevel in greens to full ascended, why not make a better comparison?

If Mordrem showed up in Fractals, I can guarantee that would be the most difficult fractal by a wide margin.

Why is it wrong to compare? You said mordrem or better designed mobs require the use of control conditions. Im telling you fractal 50 mobs already require heavy use of control conditions. So it doesnt matter what mechanics you give them, necro is still not going to be any better than other classes for the job.

@Drarnor. I can guarantee that they wouldn’t be the hardest mobs in fractals. As long as the same CC rules apply to them like to the other mobs they can be easily dealt with.

What makes fractal 50 mobs difficult to deal with? Is it the fact that if they so much as touch you, you get wrecked?

On the flip side, what makes Mordrem difficult?

I feel like “tuning” and “design” should be kept separate in the discussion. A mob that is designed to just run at you and maybe do a charge every once in a while can be tuned to be trivially easy, or it can be tuned to require care in handling the kiting/dodge so you don’t get one-shot.

If Mordrem are designed to be difficult while Fractal 50 mobs are tuned to be difficult, then it warrants calling that out, in my opinion. If that isn’t the case though, I’d be interested to hear more.

The difference doesnt really matter. In both cases the optimal strategy is to disable them and aoe burst. And that involves control.

Also with fractal mobs it depends on the mob type. Ascalonians are well designed but it seems they are overtuned for difficulty (unneeded). Aetherblade are also well designed but undertuned. Molten alliance are a little simple but they make up for it by being tuned to hit hard and attack in large groups.

I was just about to list all the groups then i realised all mob types in fractals are tuned for difficulty in fractals, there are different difficulty scales after all. Some are tuned more than others. But at the same time they all have decent base mechanics. In fact the range of mechanics is only slightly smaller than mordrem. But there is still plenty going on. Dredge boon sharing, ascalons being op versions of the different classes, cultists having evades and grawl having pulls and immobilises.

I think people tend to overlook the fact that many old mobs do actually have quite a lot of good mechanics. Mordrem are just fresh and have slightly more variation. So people automatically assume all the old mob types are just basic high damage mobs by comparison.

Pretty sure nobody thinks old mobs are “high damage” outside of high fractal scale (and then, only because of crazy stat inflation) and champs/legendaries. Mob damage is, frankly, weak.

@Gruocs: They very much would be the most difficult. Some of them would actually survive the burn and Mordrem tend to spread out a lot more anyway, making the pulls more difficult.