Guild Wars 2

/kitteningforumbug

Ratphink.4751:

I got in touch with one of the moderators on the subreddit. The post wasn’t deleted, just removed from the front page. The moderator removed it “because of the clickbait title”.

“Are Necromancers Really So Bad?” is concerned clickbait? haha, christ. Clickbait would be “Necromancers are the worst profession in Guild Wars 2. Here’s why!”

Yeah. It was bound to be a yes or a no, and it was, directly to the question asked. It’s frequently asked, and gave an opinion and said why. I see no problem with that. It wasn’t even hidden. Why must the answer inherently be “no” in order to not be click bait?

I thought it was a good article, it highlighted most problems Necromancers have faced ever since the start.

ronpierce.2760:

Yeah. It was bound to be a yes or a no, and it was, directly to the question asked. It’s frequently asked, and gave an opinion and said why. I see no problem with that. It wasn’t even hidden. Why must the answer inherently be “no” in order to not be click bait?

One can only assume because GW2’s Reddit is attempting to remain positive at all times! Regardless of how blinkered that is.

I agreed with literally everything except some tiny details (“2 out of 3 elites are awful” I disagree with), and the minion analysis, although I can completely understand the feeling about minions.

Hopefully ANet have seen this, because it is a really concise statement of our problems and worries, without getting too bogged down in specifics.

I liked the article, and found it amusing that the one place where a developer might have seen it, it was censored by moderators for a pretty laughable reason. At least the reddit moderators can’t censor my specialist reports, sheesh.

What is with the rampant anti clickbait bull these days? Like it matters what type of title it is or if its clickbait. People are so stupid lol.

While not a perfect solution, I’ve spoken with the moderator and he suggested reposting with a different title. So I went ahead and made a new post that can be found here . I’ve also included a link to the original discussion happening on Reddit, because I recognized a fair number of users on there that shouldn’t have to copy and paste their posts because this is a new thread. However I’m hoping it gets back up to the front page so that this article gets the attention it needs.

Thank you, Lewis, for doing that. It was a nice read, as always.

There is also a great write-up from TLC: Part 1, Part

I really like the discussion that has been sparked by the traits stream. I think it should be a final wake up call for the Devs. Thanks to everyone engaged in the process and the constructive discussions we’ve had over the past 2 weeks. It’s good to see the whole community finally involved in theorycrafting.

He has alot of good points, sadly Anet won t read it as I’ve been necro posting and no sign of a mod/Dev whatsoever.

I rly wish Anet could make something out of the remains of necro with specialisation. I rly love our class ,but the changes in comparison with other classes are just plain bad.

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Ratphink.4751:

I got in touch with one of the moderators on the subreddit. The post wasn’t deleted, just removed from the front page. The moderator removed it “because of the clickbait title”.

“Are Necromancers Really So Bad?” is concerned clickbait? haha, christ. Clickbait would be “Necromancers are the worst profession in Guild Wars 2. Here’s why!”

“ArenaNet’s Top 5 Failures With Necromancers”
“When I Saw This List of Necromancer Problems, My Jaw Hit the Floor”
and of course
“Devs Hate Him! One Forum Poster Discovers Easy Fix to Necromancer Class Balance!”

On a more serious note, I thought this was a fairly lucid read through on the problems with Necromancers in the game. Namely that there really isn’t a place for them besides “Just 4 Fun”

Before anyone starts thinking that the article will raise your cause from some perceived obscurity and force a response from Arenanet, consider they care more about their own forums than any review site.

Also, if they do not feel comfortable responding to threads on their forum for being misinterpreted, flamed, or saying something that must be retracted, later, they are less likely to respond to the external article.

An article on a big news site raises the issue to a wider audience. And it creates controversial exposure. They are more likely to take action if even relatively unbiased news sites start calling one class bad.

You shouldnt expect a response though. They would be digging their own grave if they responded this late despite the same issues being well known since release. Just hope for action in the form of proper and well thought out balance decisions.

Its nice that the article showed a clear “NO, necro just plain sux” and didnt apply the sugarcoat PR filter.

Flumek.9043:

Its nice that the article showed a clear “NO, necro just plain sux” and didnt apply the sugarcoat PR filter.

As it should. Whats the point in reporting and publishing and article if you’re just going to pad everything. With Necros losing faith, Blu leaving the game and articles being honest about poor design, I am just sitting here hoping that somewhere it’ll be a kitten wake up call…

Flumek.9043:

Its nice that the article showed a clear “NO, necro just plain sux” and didnt apply the sugarcoat PR filter.

Thank god for that. So tired of everyone trying to sugar coat the problems by saying, we are so good in x, when x is like 20% of the game. I don’t buy the line that if they buff necros we could become too strong. No one is asking to make us OP, we are asking to be on par with the other classes, and not be rubbish when it comes to defense/survivability. I mean if we are meant to be slow, non-mobile death machines, than up our defense or at least give us more ways to stop peole from running away, resetting ect. And for god’s sake decrease the cast times on some of our weapon skills. Tired of having to be precognizant to land a skill

Gryph.8237:

So tired of everyone trying to sugar coat the problems by saying, we are so good in x, when x is like 20% of the game

To be fair, we’re really good in downedstate, and when playing a Necro being downed is probably more than 20% of your time.

Bhawb.7408:

Gryph.8237:

So tired of everyone trying to sugar coat the problems by saying, we are so good in x, when x is like 20% of the game

To be fair, we’re really good in downedstate, and when playing a Necro being downed is probably more than 20% of your time.

They’re nerfing our downed damage!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Panic, our only viable state… gone! /violin

I laughed pretty hard when I saw the downed state nerf in the notes.
I mean, really?

Similar posts have been made by like, a dozen different posters on this forum. I suppose coming from ten ton hammer will matter more but it’s nothing new.

Softspoken.2410:

Lewis Burnell.2493:

Ratphink.4751:

I got in touch with one of the moderators on the subreddit. The post wasn’t deleted, just removed from the front page. The moderator removed it “because of the clickbait title”.

“Are Necromancers Really So Bad?” is concerned clickbait? haha, christ. Clickbait would be “Necromancers are the worst profession in Guild Wars 2. Here’s why!”

“ArenaNet’s Top 5 Failures With Necromancers”
“When I Saw This List of Necromancer Problems, My Jaw Hit the Floor”
and of course
“Devs Hate Him! One Forum Poster Discovers Easy Fix to Necromancer Class Balance!”

On a more serious note, I thought this was a fairly lucid read through on the problems with Necromancers in the game. Namely that there really isn’t a place for them besides “Just 4 Fun”

So you’ve been to weather.com too, I see?

“This Man Rolled a Necromancer. You Won’t Believe What Happened Next.”

I also liked the article. I’ve been lurking around GW2 news/these forums keeping an eye on developments, but I try to stay away more often than not because I hate the sorts of conversations that turn into “omg look what this other class just got, we don’t know what we’re going to get but I want to be mad already”.

However, discussions around how conflicting the various mechanics for a Necromancer are intrigue and delight me, because I think that’s the crux of the issue. I love Necromancer and won’t play anything else, but it’s a class at war with itself, which is just weird.

As much as people like to poo on ANet, I’ll be surprised if they don’t alleviate at least some of the paradoxes. An expansion is a perfect time to make a system modification to help the class mechanics accommodate the issues.

The problem isn’t that ANet hasn’t been (glacially slowly) fixing some issues. The problem is that every time they make a decent change like Foot in the Grave becoming a stun-break, it comes after 6 months of nothing, and is often followed by a step back. If ANet had 100 years to develop GW2 then sure, Necromancers would probably be pretty close to okay at the end of it, but they don’t, and at their current speed of balance and change iteration they will never fix our problems.

Outside of them miraculously listening to the forums and making a pretty massive set of changes to Necro, our best hope is that they release our specializations pretty quickly, and that they are all such shiny coats of paint that we all forget we’re stuck driving our parents’ beat up hand-me-down car while everyone else got a brand new sports car.

Bhawb.7408:

Gryph.8237:

So tired of everyone trying to sugar coat the problems by saying, we are so good in x, when x is like 20% of the game

To be fair, we’re really good in downedstate, and when playing a Necro being downed is probably more than 20% of your time.

Ha too true, too true

Riot Inducer.8964:

Ok, I agree with a lot of the article, necros need a lot of work, but this statement, "Necromancers only use minions when they’re new to the game and anyone who uses them outside of that is trolling or doing it ‘for the laugh’. "

kitten you article author. Seriously, don’t make this kind of incendiary statement. I have mained a minion master since GW1. I am more aware than most of how horrid the current minions are, but to imply my persistence in using them is me having a lack of knowledge, trolling or otherwise not taking my gameplay seriously is immensely insulting.

The fact of the matter is when you get past the many AI issues minions have they do in fact embody the attrition playstyle of necromancer better than most builds. Even with their AI issues they’re still meatshields and passive dps and provide far more in protracted fights than many other necromancer skills.

Again, I agree with a lot of this article and appreciate the intent of raising awareness of the issues we have but this ignorant attitude you have presented towards minions will only serve to drive others away from the playstyle that simply needs AI improvements to be more user friendly and universally useful.

You are deliberately sandbagging and playing the class below it’s already low effectiveness ceiling. You are intentionally using the wrong build. I think that falls under the “trolling” headline, whether it’s intentional or not.

Tobias.8632:

Riot Inducer.8964:

Ok, I agree with a lot of the article, necros need a lot of work, but this statement, "Necromancers only use minions when they’re new to the game and anyone who uses them outside of that is trolling or doing it ‘for the laugh’. "

kitten you article author. Seriously, don’t make this kind of incendiary statement. I have mained a minion master since GW1. I am more aware than most of how horrid the current minions are, but to imply my persistence in using them is me having a lack of knowledge, trolling or otherwise not taking my gameplay seriously is immensely insulting.

The fact of the matter is when you get past the many AI issues minions have they do in fact embody the attrition playstyle of necromancer better than most builds. Even with their AI issues they’re still meatshields and passive dps and provide far more in protracted fights than many other necromancer skills.

Again, I agree with a lot of this article and appreciate the intent of raising awareness of the issues we have but this ignorant attitude you have presented towards minions will only serve to drive others away from the playstyle that simply needs AI improvements to be more user friendly and universally useful.

You are deliberately sandbagging and playing the class below it’s already low effectiveness ceiling. You are intentionally using the wrong build. I think that falls under the “trolling” headline, whether it’s intentional or not.

It can be sort of effective in sPVP and roaming… As long as the enemy doesn’t have any AOEs, CCs, mobility, condition removals, or other types of area denial. :}

And the ground is flat.

well the article is mostly correct, the necro is the god/dess of underdogs it seems. i guess thats why it’s fun to play; no one expects a necro to come out alive when they’re fighting 2 or more opponents, but when it happens it’s glorious. It’s sort of like a badge of honor (no pun intended), the feeling of playing the most difficult class in the game and being somewhat good at it. what is incredibly irritating though is losing to builds and classes that take almost zero effort(warrior and any build it uses mostly) and brain activity to use effectively, meanwhile i’m struggling to stay alive playing the best i can with what i’m given. Anet really just needs to look in the mirror and think “wow, maybe necro DOES need some escapes.”

When you build a game around active combat/defense and twitch reflexes with the philosophy of removing the classic Trinity model, a red flag should go off in the balance teams’ mind when some Dev has the great idea that a profession should “soak up hits”. Especially with the stat/trait system we have. You’re, pretty much, bound to end up with something that is going to be nearly god-like or nearly useless, w/o much room for error in between.

Tman.6349:

When you build a game around active combat/defense and twitch reflexes with the philosophy of removing the classic Trinity model, a red flag should go off in the balance teams’ mind when some Dev has the great idea that a profession should “soak up hits”. Especially with the stat/trait system we have. You’re, pretty much, bound to end up with something that is going to be nearly god-like or nearly useless, w/o much room for error in between.

Well said. I do think they could potentially make it work, but using our 20/20 hindsight, it does not seem like anyone said “Whoa whoa whoa, if this is going to be a design to soak damage, we need to make the damage soaking interaction more interactive”. I think where it fails is feast-or-famine nature of LF generation between builds/utilities/weapon skills/etc. Normalize that and make generation/usage more interactive, and I think it could still work.

Though regardless, it’s going to be dicey/difficult.

Tman.6349:

When you build a game around active combat/defense and twitch reflexes with the philosophy of removing the classic Trinity model, a red flag should go off in the balance teams’ mind when some Dev has the great idea that a profession should “soak up hits”. Especially with the stat/trait system we have. You’re, pretty much, bound to end up with something that is going to be nearly god-like or nearly useless, w/o much room for error in between.

Yup, this is a game of active dodge, twitch reflex combat. Yet they designed a class that lacks mobility/escapes, and they want this class to get hit. The design philosophy of the class simply does not fit the gameplay design. It’s the root of issues with necros, and why they have a hard time finding that balance as it always swings from either overpowered or underpowered.

Same difficulties are seen with conditions vs cleanses. You either end up with a game with too much conditions, and everybody stacks conditions everywhere. Or you end up with a game with too much cleanses, and conditions mean little to nothing. In WvW, there’s too much cleanse for condi necros to function properly. However, in solo situations, condi necros do better but not still not well enough.

Meh I’m tired of waiting for them to improve necros and am just gonna come back when the expansion release so I can play and level up a revenant, as it’s looking like it’ll be able to do a lot of things that necros can already do plus even more.

Even if they do much a giant leap forward with this expansion, will it really be enough to put us on par with the other professions? We have so many baseline contradictions in necromancer that is is astounding. Even fear, which we have the most access to compared to the other classes, is a contradiction as it makes our enemies run away from us, and we don’t have skills we can use to chase after and make sure they can’t escape once the fear wears off.

Meanwhile the engineer keeps getting buffed, eles can still stack a group with full might, guardians fart out boons like they’re going out of style, and the list goes on and on and on, it’s all be said before and ANET has shown they just don’t care.

We are balanced around how strong we COULD be, while the other professions are balanced around how strong they actually ARE.

This article is pretty bloody spot on with every problem necromancers have.
I wonder if Anet will actually give this article a read and take away some of the suggestions considering it’s coming from what seems to be their go-to for early reveal announcements.

My main concern is that Anet will use the necro specialisation to “band-aid” the necromancer’s issues rather than tackle the issues with the core class itself.

Hahah okay so I was messing around and I have started a new campaign. This is all I have to say.

Rising Dusk.2408:

I liked the article, and found it amusing that the one place where a developer might have seen it, it was censored by moderators for a pretty laughable reason. At least the reddit moderators can’t censor my specialist reports, sheesh.

Yeah, it was a bit underhanded and hugely unnecessary especially when the devs themselves welcomed feedback. I guess one of the Mods have something against necros? ?_?

While I do agree that there’s a lot of poopy things about certain aspects of Necro… I think it’s actually not as far down the rabbit hole as most people think. I think in PvE… it honestly shouldn’t be a problem. I still don’t get the complaints about it… I play condi Necro in PvE with my guildies here and there and I don’t think I felt useless once. Sure in mega-speed runs Necros aren’t desired but from my understanding it’s 90% warriors anyway, so it’s not even entirely a Necro issue. And even if it was terrible, we shouldn’t clamor without seeing the Necro spec and GS. For all we know GS might be something like a warrior’s GS and this issue could be fixed. In WvW Necro is beastly – it has a place in roaming, and it has a place in zergs. In sPvP Necro is harder to pull off (in higher end sPvP) but it’s still pretty good. I think it should be buffed in sPvP personally because when you compare an sPvP Necro to a WvW Necro it’s almost like a different game.

Why can’t they use utility skills in Death Shroud?
-I agree that this could be allowed and it wouldn’t be OP. Wells can already be combined with Deathly Perception, spectrals already work in Deathshroud… I think asking for this seems reasonable and not even close to OP because almost all of the things already work while in DS. You can EASILY cast most things and enter DS to get the same effect as if you were casting it while in DS. Different sequence of events but exactly the same outcome. If anything, allowing utilities to be usable while in DS would be a quality of life improvement. The real question is whether the heal skill is usable in Deathshroud. Would this reduce our need to receive healing in Deathshroud? It might.
Would it be OP? Maybe, but not likely, especially in sPvP where you can burst through Deathshroud in a blink of an eye. If you pop into DS and use your heal skill, and remain in DS for some time, your heal skill will slowly be coming off of cooldown, meaning you’ll be able to use it more often and thus, more sustain. Either way, I don’t think using just utilities (skills 7-9) in Deathshroud would be something that would push the profession over the line.

Why is the Death Shroud cooldown so long?
I agree with this. 10 seconds is, in my opinion, too long. Sure, you can trait for it so it is 7 seconds (which is pretty amazing imo), but you have to give up other stuff like Soul Marks… and what’s the point in having a 7-second DS if you can’t generate it.
I think a possible solution could be to either a) Make Soul Marks baseline so that we get some nice sustain with staff and can easily pick up Close to Death or b) Make Close to Death baseline.

Why do they offer no group utility?
In my opinion this isn’t really needed. Maybe in PvE but in WvW and sPvP Necro can provide good support for allies if you aren’t the one being focused (chills, cripples, daze, fears). I think maybe it was meant as “guardian-like-support” but… we may get that with our spec.

Why are two out of three of its elites awful?
Golem is decent… Plague is godly, and Lich is pretty crazy. Lich and Plague are kind of situational and you gotta know when to use em, but they can be really strong.

Why does it have so little access to powerful combo fields?
I think the bigger issue is lack of combo finishers. A simple blast here and there would go a long way, in my opinion. If there was a trait which made entering Deathshroud a blast, for example. Off-hand dagger and warhorn could perhaps get a blast, Reaper’s Touch a projectile finisher, Weakening Shroud being a blast, etc.

Why is the Blood Magic trait line so poor?
I agree it’s unappealing and sub-par xD

Why is Life Force so fragile when the profession has no reliable means of escape or defence?
The profession can get away quite well but the problem is in sPvP you have to sacrifice a lot to get the same survivalblity as in WvW, and your damage is probably twice as bad. I think if lifeforce was more plentiful (for example Soul Marks baseline), it would help a lot with this. So… more tankyness through life-force generation = less need to escape.

I think the class does have some issues here and there but I don’t feel like it’s as terrible as some people think. For example.. to date, I’ve only seen about 3 other Necros properly use Flesh Wurm in sPvP in over 2k games.

CodeHavoc.7926:

Yeah, it was a bit underhanded and hugely unnecessary especially when the devs themselves welcomed feedback. I guess one of the Mods have something against necros? ?_?

The mods felt the title was too click-baity, and it was reposted not that long afterwards with a more “appropriate” title. It wasn’t actually removed.

Bhawb.7408:

CodeHavoc.7926:

Yeah, it was a bit underhanded and hugely unnecessary especially when the devs themselves welcomed feedback. I guess one of the Mods have something against necros? ?_?

The mods felt the title was too click-baity, and it was reposted not that long afterwards with a more “appropriate” title. It wasn’t actually removed.

I had a similar thing happen to a topic about my post about elite skills. The person who had posted it had apparently posted too many links to my site, and was presumed to be a spammer. So the topic was removed already after it was being discussed and commented on heavily.

Needless to say, I dislike the heavy-handed approach to feedback and critique that I observe from the subreddit.

i have to admit, i personally am not a fan of the necro, I’ve ignored every sub forum about classes i don’t play. every time I’ve heard necromancer mains cry and moan about how weak their class is i used to laugh and think back of all the times i would get hit with a 4k life blast in wvw and think you guys really need a nerf.

that being said, i read this article, and i have a new found respect for necros in every game type. it opened my eyes to your problems and i feel bad that i was ignorant for so long. Anet needs to work on your class give you guys a buff, i hated reading that article since it listed off so many points that are valid. the entire time in pve land i don’t ever remember seeing a necro in any of my dungeon or fractal parties. i hope that Anet gives you guys some love soon.

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

i have to admit, i personally am not a fan of the necro, I’ve ignored every sub forum about classes i don’t play. every time I’ve heard necromancer mains cry and moan about how weak their class is i used to laugh and think back of all the times i would get hit with a 4k life blast in wvw and think you guys really need a nerf.

that being said, i read this article, and i have a new found respect for necros in every game type. it opened my eyes to your problems and i feel bad that i was ignorant for so long. Anet needs to work on your class give you guys a buff, i hated reading that article since it listed off so many points that are valid. the entire time in pve land i don’t ever remember seeing a necro in any of my dungeon or fractal parties. i hope that Anet gives you guys some love soon.

I like you. If you ever die, I’ll make you a minion for sure.

ronpierce.2760:

Zxavier Augistine.7312:

i have to admit, i personally am not a fan of the necro, I’ve ignored every sub forum about classes i don’t play. every time I’ve heard necromancer mains cry and moan about how weak their class is i used to laugh and think back of all the times i would get hit with a 4k life blast in wvw and think you guys really need a nerf.

that being said, i read this article, and i have a new found respect for necros in every game type. it opened my eyes to your problems and i feel bad that i was ignorant for so long. Anet needs to work on your class give you guys a buff, i hated reading that article since it listed off so many points that are valid. the entire time in pve land i don’t ever remember seeing a necro in any of my dungeon or fractal parties. i hope that Anet gives you guys some love soon.

I like you. If you ever die, I’ll make you a minion for sure.

Corpseploitation. #NeverForget

Good article. It got me thinking.

I honestly believe the key to fixing necro lies in altering the core deathshroud mechanic, (and of course, fixing weak skills). Deathshroud needs to be central to the profession, regardless of build – like an ele’s attunements or a mesmer’s shatters – but that just isn’t the case right now.

The first thing to look at is why players might avoid going into deathshroud, aside from conserving lifeforce. Personally, I almost never use it because my normal skill bar just suits me better. The article mentions keeping utilities, but I don’t think that’s going far enough.

Move the deathshroud attack skills to F2-F4. These skills will still only be usable when you are in deathshroud, but they will be in addition to your full normal skill bar. These three deathshroud skills will come from your spec lines. Each spec line’s adept minor trait unlocks a deathshroud skill tailor fit to that line’s playstyle, along with one or two major traits you can choose to improve it.

This would be a full overhaul requiring heavy balance work, but the idea is to make lifeforce into something that you actually want to use, something that feeds into your playstyle instead of interrupting it.