Guild Wars 2

I posted this in a topic about Jade Wind, but thought this would be a more appropriate place to discuss. Functionally these skills are extremely similar so warrant a close comparison.

Chilled to the bone! – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds (though unconfirmed sources show it changed to 8 second chill and resistance changed to stability)
Jade Wind – stun 3 seconds

I’m ok with Chilled to the bone! having less duration because of the chill and resistance, the only part that really gets me is that Jade Wind has a 0.5 second cast time (confirmed in another thread) and yet Chilled to the bone! has a 2 second cast time.

2 second cast for a 2 second stun (that will likely be interupted) is just too much, especially when a non-elite legend’s elite skill is essentially the same thing. Really hope they look at this again and adjust accordingly.

If you also look at how often they are usable, I’d say Jade Wind is much more usable as it is only mitigated by energy usage (which goes back to 50% upon either switching legends or getting out of combat). Chilled to the bone! has a cooldown of 120 seconds. By my estimates, Jade Wind could in theory be used 6 times in the amount of time Chilled to the bone! could be cast once

Are we really doing this..? Reaper is a slow,bad,hard hitting,thematic and graphical boss…like a GW2 PvE boss.

Tbh they should stop with the 120 CD elites and yes the cast time needs to be reduced.

What would we suggest the cast time be changed to though? 0.5s ~1s?

I’ll leave that one up to you lot and minds greater than mine.

Flesh golem charge has a 45 second cool down, I just hope to get the shout version of that with the same 45 second cool down.

The cast time and the recharge need to be altered, but I think Augury of Death (7% cool down reduction per target hit by the shoot) is weak, especially compared to the major adept traits. Unfortunately, the cool downs for reaper shoots are probably slightly balanced around Augury of Death.

this skill should be 1s cast time and 80 sec cooldown

1 sec cast 60 sec cool down
It’s basically earth shaker big deal

Brokensunday.4098:

this skill should be 1s cast time and 80 sec cooldown

I agree. That would be the best numbers i feel.

Invictus.1503:

I posted this in a topic about Jade Wind, but thought this would be a more appropriate place to discuss. Functionally these skills are extremely similar so warrant a close comparison.

Chilled to the bone! – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds (though unconfirmed sources show it changed to 8 second chill and resistance changed to stability)
Jade Wind – stun 3 seconds

I’m ok with Chilled to the bone! having less duration because of the chill and resistance, the only part that really gets me is that Jade Wind has a 0.5 second cast time (confirmed in another thread) and yet Chilled to the bone! has a 2 second cast time.

2 second cast for a 2 second stun (that will likely be interupted) is just too much, especially when a non-elite legend’s elite skill is essentially the same thing. Really hope they look at this again and adjust accordingly.

If you also look at how often they are usable, I’d say Jade Wind is much more usable as it is only mitigated by energy usage (which goes back to 50% upon either switching legends or getting out of combat). Chilled to the bone! has a cooldown of 120 seconds. By my estimates, Jade Wind could in theory be used 6 times in the amount of time Chilled to the bone! could be cast once

You forgot that you can in theory cast Jade winds twice in a row because it has an energy cost and 0 cooldown. Which makes the 120 second CD seem incredibly out of place. And the CDR trait for shouts is kitten because it will only grant somewhat meaningful CDR if you hit 5 targets which outside of PvE is, like, never (especially with dat casttime).

Shiki.7148:

Invictus.1503:

I posted this in a topic about Jade Wind, but thought this would be a more appropriate place to discuss. Functionally these skills are extremely similar so warrant a close comparison.

Chilled to the bone! – stun 2 seconds, chill for 12 seconds, resistance 2 seconds (though unconfirmed sources show it changed to 8 second chill and resistance changed to stability)
Jade Wind – stun 3 seconds

I’m ok with Chilled to the bone! having less duration because of the chill and resistance, the only part that really gets me is that Jade Wind has a 0.5 second cast time (confirmed in another thread) and yet Chilled to the bone! has a 2 second cast time.

2 second cast for a 2 second stun (that will likely be interupted) is just too much, especially when a non-elite legend’s elite skill is essentially the same thing. Really hope they look at this again and adjust accordingly.

If you also look at how often they are usable, I’d say Jade Wind is much more usable as it is only mitigated by energy usage (which goes back to 50% upon either switching legends or getting out of combat). Chilled to the bone! has a cooldown of 120 seconds. By my estimates, Jade Wind could in theory be used 6 times in the amount of time Chilled to the bone! could be cast once

You forgot that you can in theory cast Jade winds twice in a row because it has an energy cost and 0 cooldown. Which makes the 120 second CD seem incredibly out of place. And the CDR trait for shouts is kitten because it will only grant somewhat meaningful CDR if you hit 5 targets which outside of PvE is, like, never (especially with dat casttime).

Well, not exactly twice in a row…it’s worse (for us). They could effectively cast Jade Wind 7 times if full energy, or 6 times if half to our 1 time. Here is the math. It costs 50 energy, so you cast it twice (if at full energy) and then switch legends. This puts you back to 50 energy and you DPS with duel swords (or weapon of your choice) for the 10 seconds it takes for the legend to be swappable again. Then swap to Shiro and cast again. 10 seconds later swap and DPS.

Jade Winds:
2 in 0 seconds
3 in 20
4 in 40
5 in 60
6 in 80
7 in 100
8 in 120

CttB:
1 in 0 seconds
2 in 120 seconds

They could chainsaw CttB cast time and cooldown for all I care but that doesn’t change much. I would rather see Jade Winds require 100 energy and call it a day.

CttB is just flat out bad with that cast time. And the cool down doesnt exactly help.

This should seriously just be simplified and made more generally useful without the stun component.

“Chilled to the Bone!”: Instant Cast, 30s CD. Damage and chill nearby foes for 4 seconds and an additional 2 seconds for each unique condition they are suffering from. Gain 1 stack of stability for 10 seconds for each struck foe.

Rising Dusk.2408:

This should seriously just be simplified and made more generally useful without the stun component.

“Chilled to the Bone!”: Instant Cast, 30s CD. Damage and chill nearby foes for 4 seconds and an additional 2 seconds for each unique condition they are suffering from. Gain 1 stack of stability for 10 seconds for each struck foe.

Not that you suggestion is bad but i kinda like the stun…

Invictus.1503:

Well, not exactly twice in a row…it’s worse (for us). They could effectively cast Jade Wind 7 times if full energy, or 6 times if half to our 1 time. Here is the math. It costs 50 energy, so you cast it twice (if at full energy) and then switch legends. This puts you back to 50 energy and you DPS with duel swords (or weapon of your choice) for the 10 seconds it takes for the legend to be swappable again. Then swap to Shiro and cast again. 10 seconds later swap and DPS.

Jade Winds:
2 in 0 seconds
3 in 20
4 in 40
5 in 60
6 in 80
7 in 100
8 in 120

CttB:
1 in 0 seconds
2 in 120 seconds

What i meant is that they can actually chain them to get a 6 second AE stun because they have enough energy to cast it twice without having to wait for energy (at 100%).

Muchacho.2390:

Not that you suggestion is bad but i kinda like the stun…

I like the stun, but the stun is why ANet is making it so weak otherwise. We have enough fears available to us that I think it could be gutted to make way for a more useful skill in general. Just my two cents, though!

Rising Dusk.2408:

Muchacho.2390:

Not that you suggestion is bad but i kinda like the stun…

I like the stun, but the stun is why ANet is making it so weak otherwise. We have enough fears available to us that I think it could be gutted to make way for a more useful skill in general. Just my two cents, though!

I understand that but i think Anet doesnt want instant shouts for Necros.

Honestly make the casttime 1 second and i would be happy with CttB. A cooldown reduction is something i also would like but i could live without one.

Yeah, I’m well aware of what ANet’s intending by having cast times on shouts. They want to make sure that the “powerful effects” of the shouts, since they are offensive, can be dodged or mitigated in some manner. Meanwhile, they don’t feel the same about such shouts as “On My Mark!” and “Fear Me!”. I really don’t think any of the Necromancer shouts in their current form are strong enough (save the stun on the elite) to merit a cast time, hence my suggestion.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Yeah, I’m well aware of what ANet’s intending by having cast times on shouts. They want to make sure that the “powerful effects” of the shouts, since they are offensive, can be dodged or mitigated in some manner. Meanwhile, they don’t feel the same about such shouts as “On My Mark!” and “Fear Me!”. I really don’t think any of the Necromancer shouts in their current form are strong enough (save the stun on the elite) to merit a cast time, hence my suggestion.

Fair enough but i think it is more likely that Anet would reduce the casttime then rework the skill and make it instant…

CttB is better than JW. More effects and no energy cost. You can argue that JW can be spammed, but then you can’t do anything else. 1 skill at best.
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/revenant/Jade-Wind/page/2#post5301516

Also people forgot that Revenant used to suck before Friday, and probably still does.
They’re not going to buff CttB, they’re going to nerf JW. Happy?

You’re also forgetting then even if the 2 skills are similar, Necros have many elite skills to choose from, while Revenant only has basically 2 decent ones, end if a Revenant needs a different utility, then has to give up a good elite.

Jade Winds is at least useful. CttB is not with its current cast time. So no it is not better than Jade Winds.

Yeah that huge 2 second cast makes it pretty bad. Also, unless things change plague will continue to be our only useful elite. Against half competent players lich is close to useless, and golem afks more than half the time. CttB will have the same problem as lich in that good players will counter it really easily.

Imho its OK as is maybe a slightly shorter cast time but not by much. Cttb doesn’t lock you out of most of your skills for the next few seconds like jade winds. You can cover its cast time with stability easily enough as well. It does damage , chills that synergize with reapers set, and grants up to 10 stacks of stab for 10s, enough to get back into shroud of not be stopped for a while. Only suffers from blind spam.

Hopefully like other skills and stuff it should ignore los and if it does that would also be cool.

You cannot do anything with a 2 second cast. Its like churning earth. Noone gets hit by that.

Kidel.2057:

CttB is better than JW. More effects and no energy cost. You can argue that JW can be spammed, but then you can’t do anything else. 1 skill at best.

I’ve seen this argument a few times, but it seems those who make it don’t understand the Revenant. The rotation is easy and useful.
1) JW
2) switch legends (getting 50% energy again)
3) spend 10 seconds unloading with either other legend, or DPS with swords
4) switch back to Shiro (getting 50% energy again) and gain a bit of energy
5) JW
6) finish with your energy
7) switch legends again and start all over

The whole rotation takes 20 seconds or so and you get JW twice as well as sword DPS or other skills if you aren’t the straight DPS type.

Thus the problem with necros in general. Double the cast time should mean AT LEAST double the power, but most of the time the extra long cast times on necros aren’t justified by higher damage, healing, support.

The way i am looking at it is

• you can cover it will stability
• can chain it with other skills to make it land
• can be made unblockable
• a chilled target, even with swiftness, will not be able to escape the 600 radius. Because of this you can force evades, skill usage or force an engage to attempt to counter it cast. Not sure if you can cancel its cast to bait as well.

It can do with some changes but even as it stands I cant view it as entirely useless. Plus the skill does 4 things. Chill, damage,stab,stun.

Sigmoid.7082:

The way i am looking at it is

• you can cover it will stability
• can chain it with other skills to make it land
• can be made unblockable
• a chilled target, even with swiftness, will not be able to escape the 600 radius. Because of this you can force evades, skill usage or force an engage to attempt to counter it cast. Not sure if you can cancel its cast to bait as well.

It can do with some changes but even as it stands I cant view it as entirely useless. Plus the skill does 4 things. Chill, damage,stab,stun.

Its like the most obvious skill ever. Even with major setup they are going to dodge it without fail. And considering the damage and stun duration it is not worth casting with that cast time. It is entirely useless.

If you want to disable someone why would you use CttB when you can use warhorn.

spoj.9672:

Sigmoid.7082:

The way i am looking at it is

• you can cover it will stability
• can chain it with other skills to make it land
• can be made unblockable
• a chilled target, even with swiftness, will not be able to escape the 600 radius. Because of this you can force evades, skill usage or force an engage to attempt to counter it cast. Not sure if you can cancel its cast to bait as well.

It can do with some changes but even as it stands I cant view it as entirely useless. Plus the skill does 4 things. Chill, damage,stab,stun.

Its like the most obvious skill ever. Even with major setup they are going to dodge it without fail And considering the damage and stun duration it is not worth casting with that cast time. It is entirely useless.

If you want to disable someone why would you use CttB when you can use warhorn.

Im just going to disagree because i see value in it.

Not gonna use it. Just like Corrosive Poison Cloud, Signet Of Undeath and Well Of Darkness it’ll never be on my bar.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

Not gonna use it. Just like Corrosive Poison Cloud, Signet Of Undeath and Well Of Darkness it’ll never be on my bar.

Dungeon? As a starter..maybe..who knows?

Guess what? If you don’t like CttB you can use Lich.
If a Revenant doesn’t like JW but needs Impossible Odds, he cannot swap in another elite skill.

My current build on Revenant has Shiro+Jalis, and both have terrible elite skills. I can’t do anything about it. I need to equip Jalis for the healing skill and Shiro for Impossible Odds.

Revenant has many drawbacks. It needs better skills.
(however I personally don’t think that JW is better then CttB, given the synergy that chill has with the Reaper trait line)

“You dont have to use it” is not justification for a skill being bad. JW isnt bad. Yes revs are forced into it if they equip the shiro legend. But the skill itself is decent at what it does. The same cant really be said about CttB. You can compare them. But the truth is you shouldnt focus on the comparison too much. They simply need to be good on their own. Currently CttB isnt. But JW is.

Kidel.2057:

Guess what? If you don’t like CttB you can use Lich.
If a Revenant doesn’t like JW but needs Impossible Odds, he cannot swap in another elite skill.

My current build on Revenant has Shiro+Jalis, and both have terrible elite skills. Can’t do anything about it. I need to equip Jalis for the healing skill and SHiro for Impossible Odds.

How is jade wind terrible? Honestly Shiro is the best legend because all skills are good.

And it is certainly not that we dont like CttB. Its the casttime, which we dont like. It will be like focus offhand. Nice skills but the casttime (mainly focus 5) kills it in pvp.

because it’s slow and has a huge telegraph and energy cost. Nobody is going to fall for that.

Kidel.2057:

because it’s slow and has a huge telegraph and energy cost. Nobody is going to fall for that.

How is an 1 second casttime aoe stun considered slow? Is is basically a much better version of backbreaker (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Backbreaker). And breakbreaker is really good.

CttB is 2 seconds casttime. That is what i would call slow…

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

And no, you can’t compare “Feel My Wrath” and “Strength of the Pack” because those two to vastly different things. You can compare jade Winds to CttB because they both do very similar things: both are 600 radius AoE stuns that do identical damage unless further traited.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

Can’t use taunt with Shiro, Pulsing Displacement will prevent your enemies into falling into Jade Winds, daze on elites can’t be used before actually doing the elite, Axe pull can’t be used to help jade winds either (lasts for the cast time, nothing more).
And how are knockbacks supposed to help you connect JW?

Fear+chill on the other hand force the enemy to use a stunbreaker and keep him from running away from your CttB. If it doesn’t have a stunbreaker then CttB is 100% sure to connect, since chill+fear will basically force him in range

Revenant can’t do it. Simply can’t. Has no cc that can actually help connect JW.

Revenant is a different class.

And again, CttB has no energy cost.

Generally speaking any skill which has a cast time of over 1 second has serious problems at being effective. JW is just within the boundary so it shouldnt have much of an issue. CttB is way over the boundary. So its almost useless. It really is that simple.

Kidel.2057:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

Can’t use taunt with Shiro, Pulsing Displacement will prevent your enemies into falling into Jade Winds, daze on elites can’t be used before actually doing the elite, Axe pull can’t be used to help jade winds either (lasts for the cast time, nothing more).
And how are knockbacks supposed to help you connect JW?

Fear+chill on the other hand force the enemy to use a stunbreaker and keep him from running away from your CttB. If it doesn’t have a stunbreaker then CttB is 100% sure to connect, since chill+fear will basically force him in range

Revenant can’t do it. Simply can’t. Has no cc that can actually help connect JW.

Jallis taunt is 2 seconds. You taunt→swap→Jade Wind and have a 1 second leeway before the initial Taunt even wears off.

Likewise, the Daze on Elite can be Elite→ swap→Jade Winds.

Axe pull can be used to set up other CC, or even straight to Jade Winds (the disabled time from a pull is ~ 1 second). Hell, even OH Sword has two methods of ensuring Jade Winds can land. A 1 second cast is not difficult to land with even minor setup.

Oh, and lets not forget that Revenants can get 10% increased attack speed from a trait, which would include Jade Winds. If you have ~60 energy, you can make it a super-fast cast as well.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kidel.2057:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Kidel.2057:

You can’t compare “Feel My Wrath!” to “Strength of the pack!”.
Never heard a Ranger asking for quickness of their elite shout because Guardian’s has it.
Ranger is way different and already can access quickness.

Reaper has many cc and stuns, not only CttB.

And Revenant doesn’t? 1200 range Taunt on Jallis, 20 second cooldown pull on sword offhand, knockback on staff, AoE pull on axe, pulsing displacement on Mallyx, traited daze on any elite skill, etc.

Can’t use taunt with Shiro, Pulsing Displacement will prevent your enemies into falling into Jade Winds, daze on elites can’t be used before actually doing the elite, Axe pull can’t be used to help jade winds either (lasts for the cast time, nothing more).
And how are knockbacks supposed to help you connect JW?

Fear+chill on the other hand force the enemy to use a stunbreaker and keep him from running away from your CttB. If it doesn’t have a stunbreaker then CttB is 100% sure to connect, since chill+fear will basically force him in range

Revenant can’t do it. Simply can’t. Has no cc that can actually help connect JW.

Jallis taunt is 2 seconds. You taunt->swap->Jade Wind and have a 1 second leeway before the initial Taunt even wears off.

So you basically have 0 energy (once you swap you start at 50) and your swap on cd for 10 seconds. Nice job, you can now lend 3 auto attacks and then die.

And if you miss you’re basically just dead for free. Nice energy management.

As I said, you’re forgetting energy cost.

Jave you at least tried Revenant in the last beta? Energy is a serious mechanic to consider. Revenant was (and maybe is) weak mainly because of that.

Kidel.2057:

So you basically have 0 energy (once you swap you start at 50) and your swap on cd for 10 seconds. Nice job, you can now lend 3 auto attacks and then die.

Mhh ok lets assume you run S/S. In the 3 seconds of the stun duration you get 15 energy, which is enough for one unrelenting assult or the sword 4 block if you need the block to prevent dieing. Not to mention the dodges you have. I am pretty sure you can survive just fine until the next legend swap…

It’s a little bit pointless. All that risk for 3 attacks and 1 assault?
Isn’t just shiro healing+impossible odds + assault + AA much better? In terms of dps is twice as effective and you also syphon health.
You get to do more damage in less time and with no risk, with jalis legend always ready to back you up.

I find hard to get any use for JW

For me it isn’t even about Jade winds. The only thing that’s annoyed me about revanent is that they blatantly gave another class bigger life steals than the class that has a specialization called blood magic, again. Necros need the skill that’s literally called life siphon to be a huge hitting siphon, so we can feel awesome (9 tiny little hits over 4 seconds sucks, a vampire drains your life, they don’t take it out slowly like a doctor). Simply put, no other class should have better siphoning than necro, and there is no real argument because that is inherent in the necromancer theme.

This illustrates what has made a lot of people angry about shouts. Necros don’t need more channels, necros don’t need more long cast times, and necros don’t need more long cooldowns. It is what the class has already, and the people on this forum, and in game aren’t very happy with it currently either (Mainly in pve, where necros are below bottom tier and have been since launch).

Revenant has 1 steal as healing skill, similar to thief’s. The other steals have activation conditions like flanking. Not even close to necro.

Also what’s the problem if 2 classes have vampiric skills? There are 4 classes with shouts.

Kidel.2057:

It’s a little bit pointless. All that risk for 3 attacks and 1 assault?
Isn’t just shiro healing+impossible odds + assault + AA much better? In terms of dps is twice as effecrive.
You get to do more damage in less time and with no risk, with jalis legend always ready to back you up.

Does Shiro healing+ Impossible Odds+AA set up a won teamfight? Jade Winds can. 3 seconds of an entire team not doing anything is downright devestating.

Let’s be clear: Jade Winds is never to be used for DPS itself. It’s used for setting up either yourself or teammates.

Kidel.2057:

Isn’kitten little bit pointless? All that risk for 3 attacks and 1 assault?
Isn’t just impossible odds + assault + AA much better?
You get to do more damage in less time and with no risk.

Doesnt stun your opponent though…

Also i dont think the risk is as big as you make it be. Having one or two dodges ready will enough to survive the time you can only auto attack.

Heck if the auto is decent enough autoing for a while is not the worst thing. Necros with main hand dagger do that all the time…

But heck i have enough of this pointless debate. Fact is jade wind is a good skill and CttB not so much because of its long casttime. Honestly i dont even care about jade wind much, i just want that CttB has a 1 second casttime like jade wind has…

Lol, an entire team caught by JW? You can only taunt one.

Kidel.2057:

Lol, an entire team caught by JW? You can only taunt one.

And it hits 5 targets, regardless. You can potentially land those 5 man stuns, but more likely, you just hit 2 or 3. One would be the one you taunted, one or two others would be out of dodges. This is a very likely situation, and even two people doing absolutely nothing will swing a team fight.