Guild Wars 2

A mesmer and 4 necros with this build:
http://intothemists.com/calc/?build=;00;3kHFJ0D4gJ-K0;9;4T9;0T57B3;625A4oY0x;1udbTudbTn-kKcFL090;15VAWFXKYO3V42o-G-2i;5F-0PF-0P;9;9;9;9;0k0;3V175O
Anyone willing to try and post a video?
Nemesis already did very well pre-pach,
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/CoF-p1-necro-fast-run-results
but now it should be even better I think!

Pretty sure I’d change a few things, beginning by swapping one axe for a dagger.

Mammoth.1975:

Pretty sure I’d change a few things, beginning by swapping one axe for a dagger.

Its a DS build, you want axe for lifeforce generation and then to go back into DS. No need for dagger. Still think 30/25/0/0/15 will be better.

I know, but I’d use dagger one one set for when you’re knocked out of shroud with axe2 and focus4 on cooldown. Switch for a few dagger chains, switch back for axe2/focus4, pop back into DS. Better LF generation when your shroud is out. Whether you’ll thus end up with the same shroud uptime, despite having to spend an extra couple seconds waiting out of shroud each time it drops really just depends how much damage you take. You do significantly more damage during the downtime though.

Can’t say i have ever felt that axe builds LF faster than dagger. Especially if you pair it up with warhorn. I could have sworn that unless i missed a patch note, axe #2 only generates LF once during the channel.

digiowl.9620:

Can’t say i have ever felt that axe builds LF faster than dagger. Especially if you pair it up with warhorn. I could have sworn that unless i missed a patch note, axe #2 only generates LF once during the channel.

Yeah but that channel gives you about 40% lifeforce. Focus also gives good lifeforce. Dagger has good sustained lifeforce generation, just takes a while to build up to full.

spoj.9672:

digiowl.9620:

Can’t say i have ever felt that axe builds LF faster than dagger. Especially if you pair it up with warhorn. I could have sworn that unless i missed a patch note, axe #2 only generates LF once during the channel.

Yeah but that channel gives you about 40% lifeforce. Focus also gives good lifeforce. Dagger has good sustained lifeforce generation, just takes a while to build up to full.

unless this got changed recently i seem to remember axe 2 getting less than 10%

Clumsy.6257:

spoj.9672:

digiowl.9620:

Can’t say i have ever felt that axe builds LF faster than dagger. Especially if you pair it up with warhorn. I could have sworn that unless i missed a patch note, axe #2 only generates LF once during the channel.

Yeah but that channel gives you about 40% lifeforce. Focus also gives good lifeforce. Dagger has good sustained lifeforce generation, just takes a while to build up to full.

unless this got changed recently i seem to remember axe 2 getting less than 10%

It says 8% but it always seems to almost half fill my bar so i dont really pay attention to the numbers on tooltips.

MH Dagger’s autoattack chain gives you good LF generation while also providing far-superior single-target DPS. I’d think 4 Necros stacking Wells of Suffering and autoattacking with their daggers would melt just about anything in CoF p1 pretty easily. DS’s autoattack hits really hard now but I’m not sure whether the DPS beats Dagger 1.

Blaine Tog.8304:

MH Dagger’s autoattack chain gives you good LF generation while also providing far-superior single-target DPS. I’d think 4 Necros stacking Wells of Suffering and autoattacking with their daggers would melt just about anything in CoF p1 pretty easily. DS’s autoattack hits really hard now but I’m not sure whether the DPS beats Dagger 1.

It does when it pierces a group ;P

Probably true, but the vast majority of CoF p1 is single-target. It’s really just that first part where you’d care about hitting more than one target at once.

Next week i will be attempting the CoF p1 fast run with my new glass cannon build. This time however i will take 3 berserker necromancers 1 guardian and 1 mesmer… since this seems to be the “necromancer” equivalent to the best “warrior” setup at the moment, as in 3 warriors 1 guardian 1 mesmer.

Should take a warrior instead for banners and fury.

spoj.9672:

It says 8% but it always seems to almost half fill my bar so i dont really pay attention to the numbers on tooltips.

I’ve never seen this happen! I’m really, really trying to like axe, but I still need to use another weapon set for LF generation most of the time because I see about 10% like others have said.

The only build I’ve found that can generate any kind of LF with an axe MH is a spectral build.

Nemesis.8593:

Next week i will be attempting the CoF p1 fast run with my new glass cannon build. This time however i will take 3 berserker necromancers 1 guardian and 1 mesmer… since this seems to be the “necromancer” equivalent to the best “warrior” setup at the moment, as in 3 warriors 1 guardian 1 mesmer.

Sorry, but how the hell is a guardian good in a cof group? 4 warriors 1 mesmer/3 warriors, 1 thief 1 mesmer is still the fastest setup.

Zariuss.2357:

Nemesis.8593:

Next week i will be attempting the CoF p1 fast run with my new glass cannon build. This time however i will take 3 berserker necromancers 1 guardian and 1 mesmer… since this seems to be the “necromancer” equivalent to the best “warrior” setup at the moment, as in 3 warriors 1 guardian 1 mesmer.

Sorry, but how the hell is a guardian good in a cof group? 4 warriors 1 mesmer/3 warriors, 1 thief 1 mesmer is still the fastest setup.

^ This… a guardian will just slow you down. Take 4 necro and 1 mesmer. Dont forget you are attempting to see how fast a NECRO group can do it

Homonavn.6348:

Zariuss.2357:

Nemesis.8593:

Next week i will be attempting the CoF p1 fast run with my new glass cannon build. This time however i will take 3 berserker necromancers 1 guardian and 1 mesmer… since this seems to be the “necromancer” equivalent to the best “warrior” setup at the moment, as in 3 warriors 1 guardian 1 mesmer.

Sorry, but how the hell is a guardian good in a cof group? 4 warriors 1 mesmer/3 warriors, 1 thief 1 mesmer is still the fastest setup.

^ This… a guardian will just slow you down. Take 4 necro and 1 mesmer. Dont forget you are attempting to see how fast a NECRO group can do it

4 necros doesnt work because of lack of fury and might. In the thief cof run they took 1 warrior for banners, fury and fire field.

Well that was what i was told, i don’t know why either… also my new glass cannon build will not lack might, it actually will be one of the best might stackers in the game.

Fury… meh… we’ll see, we’ll see…

I don’t think we even need fury any more if we go 30 into Soul Reaping. With the new 50% crit chance trait in DS, we can easily get 100% crit chance. While fury is nice for when we’re caught out of DS, I find that I can easily generate more than enough LF in the 7 seconds it takes for DS to cool down. Fury would be a waste while using a DS centric build at this point I feel.

Of course someone with some actual math skills is more than welcome to shed some light on this subject.

Kravick.4906:

I don’t think we even need fury any more if we go 30 into Soul Reaping. With the new 50% crit chance trait in DS, we can easily get 100% crit chance. While fury is nice for when we’re caught out of DS, I find that I can easily generate more than enough LF in the 7 seconds it takes for DS to cool down. Fury would be a waste while using a DS centric build at this point I feel.

Of course someone with some actual math skills is more than welcome to shed some light on this subject.

I am… but the math is making my head hurt for the path 2 days…

Take into consideration, cast times… DPS uptime due to range vs melee, Lich Form CDs, and the variable of “if you get hit you lose DS” which = less range max DPS uptime… on top of math you have to deal with probabilities and statistics, and i find that impossible, it’s simply too random.

That’s why i am taking so long with releasing my new glass cannon build.

The DS build wont be as strong as 30/25/0/0/15 in a group with fury, might and banners. More reliable dps aswell. The advantage of the DS build is its good solo because you dont need team buffs to achieve good crit chance and might.

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich Form still sucks…..I tested in cof post-patch and the damage is pure pathetic. You’ll get more dps from either pure dagger or DS. Some said it’s due to Lich Form’s scaling <80. I don’t know if that’s true but I can tell you, Lich Form SUCKS in CoF!

With +50% crit in death shroud plus lifeblast stacking vuln and might, we seem to have our bases largely covered, but a warrior for discipline and some extra might is still a huge increase. Running without banner of discipline when everyone has 100% crit seems sketchy.

Nemesis.8593:

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich form (or any transformation elites for that matter) weren’t supposed to be fixed according to patch notes nor they are. They still have statcaps when below lvl 80, and even at 80 lich’s auto has way inferior base damage (boosted to decent levels by lich’s +916x2 power boost) compared to lifeblast/dagger which means you’ll get much more out of the given might stacks for dagger/lifeblast.

Targuil.3741:

Nemesis.8593:

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich form (or any transformation elites for that matter) weren’t supposed to be fixed according to patch notes nor they are. They still have statcaps when below lvl 80, and even at 80 lich’s auto has way inferior base damage (boosted to decent levels by lich’s +916x2 power boost) compared to lifeblast/dagger which means you’ll get much more out of the given might stacks for dagger/lifeblast.

Lich Form before the patch didn’t took into consideration your weapon stats, it was like you had no weapons before patch. Now it does… you can even get stacks on your on kill sigils…

Also… does anyone take into consideration the activation time and delay between attacks ?
90% of the entire community think like… “big numbers = good”.

Nemesis.8593:

Targuil.3741:

Nemesis.8593:

Why must you go 25 into curses if you already have fury in your group ?… Also the best DPS at the moment is Lich Form because it got fixed in the last patch. In Lich Form you get to 100% critical chance even without going into curses.

If you do go into curses however you apply a lot of bleeding on the target. You literally mess up any and all condition type builds that are in the party with you.

Also your AoE won’t be higher, will in fact be considerably lower…

When you say won’t be as strong, what are you referring to ?… Bursting something down in 30 seconds, it’s stronger… AoEing… it’s stronger… overall DPS – DPS uptime in places where you can’t melee, it’s way stronger…

Lich form (or any transformation elites for that matter) weren’t supposed to be fixed according to patch notes nor they are. They still have statcaps when below lvl 80, and even at 80 lich’s auto has way inferior base damage (boosted to decent levels by lich’s +916x2 power boost) compared to lifeblast/dagger which means you’ll get much more out of the given might stacks for dagger/lifeblast.

Lich Form before the patch didn’t took into consideration your weapon stats, it was like you had no weapons before patch. Now it does… you can even get stacks on your on kill sigils…

Also… does anyone take into consideration the activation time and delay between attacks ?
90% of the entire community think like… “big numbers = good”.

Well I agree thats new information for me that weapons are available in lich, but you can’t say we didn’t have ANY weapon in lich beforehand. If we didn’t, we would do exactly 0 damage with all attacks as without weapon the damage equation goes to zero. We had a some kind of enviromental weapon with weapon strength of around ~960. Pretty average that is.

If what you say is true, Lich got around 180 power, 128 precision and 10% crit damage and two sigils. Power and precision only apply if you are lvl 80 as you would cap those anyway as that mechanic is not changed. Though I would not underestimate those boosts combined with sigils. Those may even make lich surpass dagger and DS even in ideal situations to them unlike before.

Lets assume Lich form has zero cast time, nor you have any utilities(With wells there’s definetly a damage spike in favor to Lich, probably big enough to warrant it’s cast time anyway), nor you use another elite.
Lets assume you have 2500 power which is attainable without might or sigil stacks. Your Dagger/DS does pretty good damage with that kind of power. If we add 25 might, we get 875 power and end up at 3375. 3375/2500=1,35=35% damage boost compared to zero might. For Lich, the power now would be (2500+2x916)=4332. Adding 25 might raises it to 5207. 5207/4332=~1,202=20,2% damage boost compared to zero might. Now the question is, does the Lich’s 0 might dps enough over dagger/DS to cut even with 25 might, making it desireable choice with any given amount of might? Taking the relative damage increase between Dagger/DS and Lichtells us how much dps Lich needs to do compared to Dagger/DS at 0 might. (3375/2500)/(5207/4332)=~1,12=12%.

Does Lich do, on average, 12% more dps than other choices? That is for us to find out. All we need is relevant skills’ co-efficients, crit rate/damage and frame data for attack chain speed. Traiting should give, assuming weapons now fully work with Lich, same boost as for DS(axe mastery) and kitten ost for dagger.

I already did the math… it’s in the video currently uploading. The secret lies in the activation times and delay between attacks.

In truth Lich Form attacks the fastest… compared to a full chain of dagger 1. So even though a dagger 1 chain would do more damage then a Lich Form 1… the Lich Form 1 attacks faster then a dagger 1 chain.

You also benefit from the safety of 1200 range which gives you higher real DPS uptime.
Overall Lich Form is a little bit better in terms of damage… and a lot safer.

Nemesis.8593:

I already did the math… it’s in the video currently uploading. The secret lies in the activation times and delay between attacks.

In truth Lich Form attacks the fastest… compared to a full chain of dagger 1. So even though a dagger 1 chain would do more damage then a Lich Form 1… the Lich Form 1 attacks faster then a dagger 1 chain.

You also benefit from the safety of 1200 range which gives you higher real DPS uptime.
Overall Lich Form is a little bit better in terms of damage… and a lot safer.

I know the Lich form is faster than dagger 1 chain. Much faster, probably like Twice the speed. Still waiting on numbers on this though. Pure speed speed or damage does no good, it’s the combination of all.

Safety of lich is kind of double edged sword. You gain alot of range but range only does not grant much higher uptime for all bosses who need attention at any range. (Bloomhunger for example). Also you lose any other tools and utilities for the time which may or may not determine if you survive. Still, I would say it is worth it to slot and use if you run wells (for the well duration for spike damage), if you need to fight at 1200 or multiple targets at long range, or if the conclusion for dps is truly enough to surpass other means at melee range for extended duration, and even more so if it’s true with 25 might too.

Targuil.3741:

Nemesis.8593:

I already did the math… it’s in the video currently uploading. The secret lies in the activation times and delay between attacks.

In truth Lich Form attacks the fastest… compared to a full chain of dagger 1. So even though a dagger 1 chain would do more damage then a Lich Form 1… the Lich Form 1 attacks faster then a dagger 1 chain.

You also benefit from the safety of 1200 range which gives you higher real DPS uptime.
Overall Lich Form is a little bit better in terms of damage… and a lot safer.

I know the Lich form is faster than dagger 1 chain. Much faster, probably like Twice the speed. Still waiting on numbers on this though. Pure speed speed or damage does no good, it’s the combination of all.

Safety of lich is kind of double edged sword. You gain alot of range but range only does not grant much higher uptime for all bosses who need attention at any range. (Bloomhunger for example). Also you lose any other tools and utilities for the time which may or may not determine if you survive. Still, I would say it is worth it to slot and use if you run wells (for the well duration for spike damage), if you need to fight at 1200 or multiple targets at long range, or if the conclusion for dps is truly enough to surpass other means at melee range for extended duration, and even more so if it’s true with 25 might too.

This is exactly the reason why i did not draw many conclusions in my still uploading perfected new glass cannon build. There are too many variables that belong in the “random” or “preference” area… i simply stated the math with a demonstration.

I did however encouraged people two things… always have DPS uptime, and know what each skill actually does over a 30 second benchmark. Then you may chose the form in which you keep your DPS uptime, my recommendation remains… DS 1 empowers axe 2 and dagger 1… which in turn empower your DS 1 by generating life force.

It’s a very beautiful synergy…

The reason you go 25 in curses is for Target the weak. A base damage modifier is so much better than crit damage. As crit damage gets boosted by that modifier anyway. You only need 3 conditions on your target to get a better damage boost than strength of undeath. But with a 30/25 build or 30/30 you can get vuln, cripple, bleed and weakness with very high uptime. You could also make one necro take dhummfire to boost the groups dps as well. Its the damage modifiers which are important in a power build. Lich form also benefits from the damage modifier. Also I couldnt give a kitten about taking away from a condition builds dps, conditions are bad for pve and condition builds should never be used in a group where you are trying to maximize dps (then again necro’s shouldnt be used in that group either xD). Also a few 1 second bleed stacks arent gonna effect a condi necro much as they wont have 25 stacks of bleed at all times anyway.

For a dps guardian with barely any utility you go 10/25/0/10/25 Which is missing out on 200 power but it doesnt matter because you are getting more damage modifiers by going into the other trait lines, they make up for the loss of power or crit damage.

Unfortunately if we applied the same logic to necro and went for 25 in curses and 25 in soul reaping we would lose dps because the damage modifiers arent good enough to make up for the loss of power and close to death.

Dagger 1 has a 50% higher skillcoefficient per second than DS1. Thats 50% more dps. With support and a 30/25/00/15 Build (or 30/30, w/e), you reach ~90% crtichanche. You can ignore some critical hit chanche in a DS build, but your still missing precision while generating LF. And Dagger 1 deals roughly the same damage as Axe 2.

Why should I use Deathshroud or axe in a direct dps build?

I’m assuming you want burning so that the rest of your team members can spread it and therefor someone with high condition damage can benefit from epidemic-ing it.
Otherwise the AoE DPS via burning pales into comparison with well of power + life transfer at 100% critical chance and 108% critical strike damage. The AoE burst is far superior…

I agree that dagger 1 DPS would be higher in your build though… but that is all that would be higher…

Also you mentioned weakness, cripple, bleed and other conditions that are not descriptive of a glass cannon, or favor a fight that should be done in a matter of seconds. These tools favor fights that are prolonged… why would i care about weakness if the mob dies in the next 2 seconds anyway…

Dhummfire in a power build is a big mistake as you do not have any condition damage yourself, or the means of spreading the Dhummfire on 5 targets. On single target the damage Dhummfire does with no condition damage is laughable…
At 100 condition damage Dhummfire does 353 DPS vs… 20% more overall damage when fighting mobs under 20% health.

Even if you take that x 5 it’s still 1753… DPS. When you think that in my new power build my well of suffering ticks 2000 per mob per second for 6 seconds…

Dhummfire is the key element of a hybrid build though… complements your condition damage perfectly.

Molch.2078:

Dagger 1 has a 50% higher skillcoefficient per second than DS1. Thats 50% more dps. With support and a 30/25/00/15 Build (or 30/30, w/e), you reach ~90% crtichanche. You can ignore some critical hit chanche in a DS build, but your still missing precision while generating LF. And Dagger 1 deals roughly the same damage as Axe 2.

Why should I use Deathshroud or axe in a direct dps build?

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Yes… it’s higher, it actually is… the problem is if you have 3 seconds of no DPS in melee, you lost your “higher” advantage.

Not saying play with DS 1 or axe or dagger 1… i’m saying play with all, and build youself so you can play with all at all times so you have 100% DPS uptime.

edit: which one of you has the courage to encourage people to dagger 1 in fractals 48 ?…

Maybe at the mossman ?… maybe at the flame shaman ?… let me think… yeah i know, the dredge !… dagger 1 the 51783641876 dredge, or maybe you like to try to see if your dagger 1 is stronger then the cliffside cultist boss hammer…

You do 1 dagger 1, the boss does 1 hammer 1… boss wins GeeeGeee

Dhuumfire provides every necro with target the weak a 2% raw damage boost. So its not a bad choice to have 1 necro run it. Although I wouldnt bother as close to death is far better. When you engage in a fight you open with reapers touch for vuln, pop locust swarm for aoe damage, flash DS for weakening shroud and dagger auto attack. All 4 conditions on the targets almost instantly, giving you a 8% damage boost. Although for large groups you generally pop some wells and use your ds aoe skills before auto attacking with dagger.

25 curses is a valid argument. however its quite hard to mathematically calculate the dps increase it would provide with precision as opposed to losing 15% critical damage and 50% crit chance in DS and many other things.

It is also a very valid argument that this DS build would suffer a mild DPS loss while not in DS as the crit rate isn’t optimised for dagger usage. Though I haven’t really calculated where the most optimal crit rate is given the resources we have. You can get your dagger crit rate to 100% if you really want as berzerker build, but it may not be optimal.

Also, you cannot directly compare lifeblast skill coefficient with dagger 1 coefficient, even if you take attack chain time into account. Because deathshroud uses current weapon and thus, having a weapon with higher base damage or weapon based damage percentage boosts (axe mastery) is better for deathshroud usage than dagger. Dagger not only has lowest base damage of all contenders (dagger/axe/staff), but it also haven’t got anything else above others. Axe and staff comparison is more interesting. By default, staff is better than axe as its’ base damage is higher, but with axe mastery the axe outshines staff by around 4,5% (calculated as I calculated in some other thread). Axe with mastery naturally outshines dagger in deathshroud by quite a bit. Actually base weapon damage for axe on average is same as dagger, 952, with a slightly larger spread. With axe mastery you’ll do 15% more damage in DS with axe than you would do with dagger.

And I fully agree with Nemesis with playing so you would have 100% DPS uptime. Preferably with the best tool too.

Nemesis.8593:

edit: which one of you has the courage to encourage people to dagger 1 in fractals 48 ?…

Maybe at the mossman ?… maybe at the flame shaman ?… let me think… yeah i know, the dredge !… dagger 1 the 51783641876 dredge, or maybe you like to try to see if your dagger 1 is stronger then the cliffside cultist boss hammer…

You do 1 dagger 1, the boss does 1 hammer 1… boss wins GeeeGeee

I don’t know about encouraging others, but given good situations, mossman is meleeable (if you aren’t his target), flame shaman is meleeable (You won’t have 100% uptime due to dodging, but you can divert his attention to wasting time for pbaoe skills instead of firing arrows and meteor showers to your allies), dredge… you win here, due to lack of cleave compared to lich/DS pierce and due to that insane constant damage output, Archdiviner… I can see a possiblity where you switch between ranges while constantly dpsing him in other forms when out of dagger range. Probably not worth it though.

Nemesis.8593:

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Go to loins arch. Grab a watch and messure the time it takes tho hit the dummys 10 times (100 times if you want) with the full dagger chain. Result: 20.23s
DS1? 15.15s

Therefore DS1 has a cast time delay and whatever you want of 1.5 seconds, Dagger 1 has 2 seconds.

DS1 has a damage coefficient of 1.4 -> 1.4/1.5 = 0.933
Dagger chain has a coefficient of 2.8 -> 2.8/2 = 1.4

1.4/0.933 = 1.5
q.e.d.

Edit: Axemastery, eh? Okay. Effective coefficient is now 1.4 x1.15 = 1.61, coefficient/s = 1.07
1.4/1.07= 1.3
And again, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice those 30% damage.

And I know for a fact, that there are enought ppl out there who melee moss man or dredge trash. Afaik the only two bosses where range is better are shaman and dredge.

Two bosses. In an entire game.

Id feel a lot safer meleeing with my necro against mossman than with my dps guard. Sure dps guard has blocks and invuln, but with only 12k hp and no toughness one slip up is a down.

DS is just going to get eaten so much that a DS build isnt a good idea for dps. You want sustained dps even if you cant cleave you can make up for it with wells, locust swarm and even a beserker scepter if you want.

Think I might try and sort out some video recording soon. If i can get it to work without lagging then Ill see if can record a fractal run in full melee with my necro.

spoj.9672:

Id feel a lot safer meleeing with my necro against mossman than with my dps guard. Sure dps guard has blocks and invuln, but with only 12k hp and no toughness one slip up is a down.

DS is just going to get eaten so much that a DS build isnt a good idea for dps. You want sustained dps even if you cant cleave you can make up for it with wells, locust swarm and even a beserker scepter if you want.

Think I might try and sort out some video recording soon. If i can get it to work without lagging then Ill see if can record a fractal run in full melee with my necro.

I would be interested to see that… i have so many bad memories for trying to melee.

Especially the Archdiviner… he usually turns around and insta-slaps me into the ground through DS.
Dredge is dredge… flame shaman makes my heard hurt if i try to melee him, the skill required to pull that of is not really worth it, and mossman… oh mossman how he loves to 1 shot people while in stealth, or 1 shot me with a MELEE attack (that was aimed at someone else) even though i am BEHIND HIM AT RANGE… diablo 3 style anyone ?

Molch.2078:

Nemesis.8593:

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Go to loins arch. Grab a watch and messure the time it takes tho hit the dummys 10 times (100 times if you want) with the full dagger chain. Result: 20.23s
DS1? 15.15s

Therefore DS1 has a cast time delay and whatever you want of 1.5 seconds, Dagger 1 has 2 seconds.

DS1 has a damage coefficient of 1.4 -> 1.4/1.5 = 0.933
Dagger chain has a coefficient of 2.8 -> 2.8/2 = 1.4

1.4/0.933 = 1.5
q.e.d.

Edit: Axemastery, eh? Okay. Effective coefficient is now 1.4 x1.15 = 1.61, coefficient/s = 1.07
1.4/1.07= 1.3
And again, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice those 30% damage.

And I know for a fact, that there are enought ppl out there who melee moss man or dredge trash. Afaik the only two bosses where range is better are shaman and dredge.

Two bosses. In an entire game.

I have no idea what you calculated there… all i know is the dagger 1 cicle hits up to 50% harder but about 25% slower. I also know that you can’t stay always in DS 1 or always at melee range.

I’ve made a build that helps you stay in DS because of dagger 1 and makes your dagger 1 a much harder hitting skill because you stay in DS 1. Overall in this build you also have 100% DPS uptime which topples everything else…

Molch.2078:

Nemesis.8593:

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Go to loins arch. Grab a watch and messure the time it takes tho hit the dummys 10 times (100 times if you want) with the full dagger chain. Result: 20.23s
DS1? 15.15s

Therefore DS1 has a cast time delay and whatever you want of 1.5 seconds, Dagger 1 has 2 seconds.

DS1 has a damage coefficient of 1.4 -> 1.4/1.5 = 0.933
Dagger chain has a coefficient of 2.8 -> 2.8/2 = 1.4

1.4/0.933 = 1.5
q.e.d.

Edit: Axemastery, eh? Okay. Effective coefficient is now 1.4 x1.15 = 1.61, coefficient/s = 1.07
1.4/1.07= 1.3
And again, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice those 30% damage.

And I know for a fact, that there are enought ppl out there who melee moss man or dredge trash. Afaik the only two bosses where range is better are shaman and dredge.

Two bosses. In an entire game.

You should also calculate that with 50% more critrate in DS you can invest more in power and still crit every hit. Also your wells will always crit in DS. Pure nontraited damage is much lower yes, but traited may be a different story.

Targuil.3741:

Molch.2078:

Nemesis.8593:

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Go to loins arch. Grab a watch and messure the time it takes tho hit the dummys 10 times (100 times if you want) with the full dagger chain. Result: 20.23s
DS1? 15.15s

Therefore DS1 has a cast time delay and whatever you want of 1.5 seconds, Dagger 1 has 2 seconds.

DS1 has a damage coefficient of 1.4 -> 1.4/1.5 = 0.933
Dagger chain has a coefficient of 2.8 -> 2.8/2 = 1.4

1.4/0.933 = 1.5
q.e.d.

Edit: Axemastery, eh? Okay. Effective coefficient is now 1.4 x1.15 = 1.61, coefficient/s = 1.07
1.4/1.07= 1.3
And again, I don’t see any reason to sacrifice those 30% damage.

And I know for a fact, that there are enought ppl out there who melee moss man or dredge trash. Afaik the only two bosses where range is better are shaman and dredge.

Two bosses. In an entire game.

You should also calculate that with 50% more critrate in DS you can invest more in power and still crit every hit. Also your wells will always crit in DS. Pure nontraited damage is much lower yes, but traited may be a different story.

Exactly… my new build can reach 4300 power on it’s own… you’ll see… you’ll all see muahahahaha

Nemesis.8593:

I have no idea what you calculated there… all i know is the dagger 1 cicle hits up to 50% harder but about 25% slower.

First, I tested the true duration of the dagger chain and the ds1 skill. The results said, that dagger chain takes 2 seconds to complete, while ds1 takes 1.5 seconds.

Then I looked up the specific skill coefficients for dagger1 and ds1.
http://pvx.gw2buildcraft.com/Damage_Calculations#Necromancer

Next, I divided skill duration with damage coefficient, to get a skillcoefficient per second. This number is proportional to your dps.

At last, I compared the two coeff/sec. And as you can see, Dagger deals 50% more damage than DS1.

Nemesis.8593:

I also know that you can’t stay always in DS 1 This is true or always at melee range. This is not true

At least not for like 95% of the game.

The calculation shows 30% higher coefficient per second on dagger 1 (assuming axe mastery on the lifeblast necro).

30% more of your power is applied per second on dagger 1. That means in a composition where you can maintain 100% uptime on fury, dagger 1 will be better damage. In a 4 necro comp with no external fury source, the basic question becomes ‘is ~40% more crit (average over time) better than 30% more power?’. If it is, it’s worth working out the details. If it isn’t, dagger 1 will be better dps every time. Since as far as I can figure the optimal build for either has 47% crit without fury, the question is relevant, as you will always gain full benefit from deathly perception if you’re optimised for maximum dps.

Actually I just realised it’s more complicated than that due to the different trait distributions… the question is more like ‘is 30% more crit and 15% more crit damage worth more than 30% more power?’

Targuil.3741:

You should also calculate that with 50% more critrate in DS you can invest more in power and still crit every hit. Also your wells will always crit in DS. Pure nontraited damage is much lower yes, but traited may be a different story.

A berserker build reaches the highest amount of power possible. At which point can you sacrifice some precision to get even more power?

Mammoth.1975:

The calculation shows 30% higher coefficient per second on dagger 1 (assuming axe mastery on the lifeblast necro).

30% more of your power is applied per second on dagger 1. That means in a composition where you can maintain 100% uptime on fury, dagger 1 will be better damage. In a 4 necro comp with no external fury source, the basic question becomes ‘is ~40% more crit (average over time) better than 30% more power?’. If it is, it’s worth working out the details. If it isn’t, dagger 1 will be better dps every time. Since as far as I can figure the optimal build for either has 47% crit without fury, the question is relevant, as you will always gain full benefit from deathly perception if you’re optimised for maximum dps.

Actually I just realised it’s more complicated than that due to the different trait distributions… the question is more like ‘is 30% more crit and 15% more crit damage worth more than 30% more power?’

I’m assuming you mean 60% crit rate versus 100% crit rate. In that case, with perfect berserker set without any food, your critical damage on DS build will be 112%, and your build would have 97%. The damage multiplier advantage from crits in DS build is: (1,00*2,62)/(0,60*2,47+0,40*1)=~1.39=39%.. Not to mention if you go for more critical ratey build with stack sigils or foods, I can use power instead. You will however, in addition to basic damage have some from conditions but is it enough?

Targuil.3741:

Mammoth.1975:

The calculation shows 30% higher coefficient per second on dagger 1 (assuming axe mastery on the lifeblast necro).

30% more of your power is applied per second on dagger 1. That means in a composition where you can maintain 100% uptime on fury, dagger 1 will be better damage. In a 4 necro comp with no external fury source, the basic question becomes ‘is ~40% more crit (average over time) better than 30% more power?’. If it is, it’s worth working out the details. If it isn’t, dagger 1 will be better dps every time. Since as far as I can figure the optimal build for either has 47% crit without fury, the question is relevant, as you will always gain full benefit from deathly perception if you’re optimised for maximum dps.

Actually I just realised it’s more complicated than that due to the different trait distributions… the question is more like ‘is 30% more crit and 15% more crit damage worth more than 30% more power?’

I’m assuming you mean 60% crit rate versus 100% crit rate. In that case, with perfect berserker set without any food, your critical damage on DS build will be 112%, and your build would have 97%. The damage multiplier advantage from crits in DS build is: (1,00*2,62)/(0,60*2,47)=~1.77=77%. That’s HUGE. Not to mention if you go for more critical ratey build with stack sigils or foods, I can use power instead. You will however, in addition to basic damage have some from conditions but is it enough?

But for total damage you have to factor the 30% extra power per second being applied, and the noncrit damage, plus I think the optimal DS build only has 40% base crit or so.

So (1*0.9*2.62+1*(1-0.9))/(1.3*0.6*2.47+1.3*(1-0.6)) = 1.005. Half a percent difference, very close. All the little extra stuff like 3% extra damage from target the weak over strength of undeath, base attack values and so forth is going to come into play. These are theoretical maximums of course, and we could talk all day about the relative virtues of range, maximum deathshroud uptimes, group compositions with and without fury, etc, etc. I just think it’s probably best if we establish the dps difference, if any, between dagger 1 and ds 1 in a vaccuum before we move ahead with the rest. That makes it easier to apply different situational modifiers to the results.

It would be quite interesting if our ranged option does more dps than our melee option. Even if that doesn’t turn out to be the case, it’s a huge buff to to the build that the cof run was done on. If that means we can now start producing reasonably competitive times on such runs with a very resilient (compared to the meta) build, there’s no question that a necro would be a more than viable addition to any run on content that is expected to actually be challenging for a given group.

Nemesis.8593:

Molch.2078:

Dagger 1 has a 50% higher skillcoefficient per second than DS1. Thats 50% more dps. With support and a 30/25/00/15 Build (or 30/30, w/e), you reach ~90% crtichanche. You can ignore some critical hit chanche in a DS build, but your still missing precision while generating LF. And Dagger 1 deals roughly the same damage as Axe 2.

Why should I use Deathshroud or axe in a direct dps build?

You are not taking into consideration activation times of skill and the delay between activations… it’s not 50% higher, it’s actually only 20% higher… trust me on that one.

Yes… it’s higher, it actually is… the problem is if you have 3 seconds of no DPS in melee, you lost your “higher” advantage.

Not saying play with DS 1 or axe or dagger 1… i’m saying play with all, and build youself so you can play with all at all times so you have 100% DPS uptime.

edit: which one of you has the courage to encourage people to dagger 1 in fractals 48 ?…

Maybe at the mossman ?… maybe at the flame shaman ?… let me think… yeah i know, the dredge !… dagger 1 the 51783641876 dredge, or maybe you like to try to see if your dagger 1 is stronger then the cliffside cultist boss hammer…

You do 1 dagger 1, the boss does 1 hammer 1… boss wins GeeeGeee

Gee Gee OMG LOL player detected XDD

Edited for correct values, its 39% not 77% as i first calculated.

Mammoth.1975:

But for total damage you have to factor the 30% extra power per second being applied, and the noncrit damage, plus I think the optimal DS build only has 40% base crit or so.

So (1*0.9*2.62+1*(1-0.9))/(1.3*0.6*2.47+1.3*(1-0.6)) = 1.005. Half a percent difference, very close. All the little extra stuff like 3% extra damage from target the weak over strength of undeath, base attack values and so forth is going to come into play. These are theoretical maximums of course, and we could talk all day about the relative virtues of range, maximum deathshroud uptimes, group compositions with and without fury, etc, etc. I just think it’s probably best if we establish the dps difference, if any, between dagger 1 and ds 1 in a vaccuum before we move ahead with the rest. That makes it easier to apply different situational modifiers to the results.

It would be quite interesting if our ranged option does more dps than our melee option.

Those equations seem to be quite correct after I corrected mine with taking noncrits into account but DS build, with 30/10/0/0/30 with full ascended berserker with ruby orbs has 47% base crit rate without any sigils or food buffs. It might actually be beneficial to go scholar with DS build as you might be able to maintain 90% easier.

Sorry you’re right. And the 30/25 build has 55 (65 average with self fury uptime assuming flawless ds flashing) so the actual equation would be:

(1*0.97*2.62+(1*.03))/(1.3*0.65*2.47+(1.3*0.35)) = 1.01