Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/gw2/October-15th-balance-skills-updates-preview/first

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Since the Necro is the only class that actually can do a condition build right now that isn’t completly crap – what do you think after some buffs? o.o

Engineers and mesmers can do decent condi builds still. Mesmers are less predictable, sure, but they can do pretty good confusion and bleed stacking with the right trait choices. Warriors are a bit more viable on that front as well now.

That said, I’ll be quite happy. I’ve been running condition builds since day 1 (save some forays into Power, which I don’t enjoy as much). I’m looking forward to having at least some impact on world bosses beyond Torment on a couple.

I hope they get buffed, or at the very least sustained. I have no idea what to do with my necro already and it’s geared/traited towards conditions.
But anet just talks about the bloodline in that topic. What concerns me more is that condition removal is also in some of these changes.

I’m not concerned about the changes to condition removal they mentioned, since the only ones they brought up were the Ranger’s brown bear (which is nothing but a damage sponge, really) and the Mesmer mantra (which won’t remove anything more from the mesmer himself, thus will probably still not be taken ever).

As for the Purging Flames change, that concerns me more than anything else, but even so, it is still better for condition builds to face than it was before where it removed a condition every second (now it will be 3 up front and reduced duration on the rest).

Ture Engineer can do medicore perma burn damage. But power grenades / flamethrower are still dealing much much more damage. Especially greande with their built in 20 stacks vournability. And mesmer PvE (!!) condition damage? No – just no. Hybrid yes, but full con? No. But lets stay at Necro here.

Right now the Necro lacks most in the max. bleeding stacks. 25 Stacks are just not enough for bleeding. In a team with 5 players where one is a necro and the other not, 25 stacks are allways on. If there would be no necro, there would be 20 stacks. If there would be only the necro – 20 stacks too.
Sure you can say “thats ok, the necro deals more bleeding and will override weaker bleedings” … WTF!? Even if he does 100 bleeding instead of 50 per tic, he REMOVES other stacks wich would be only an increase of 50 damage. It looks nice at your screen but … after all the necro deals weak condition bleeding right now if he isnt alone. AND THIS ANNOYS ME
Stacks should be 50, but just for bleeding. Others are ok like they are.

For starters, it’s not only Necro that use’s conditions in this game. Condi trait line & gear is for all class’s.

The next bit, don’t get too excited yet. “Further down the Road”
Sounds like Condi fix, is on the back burner, and won’t be out this patch.

As it stands, there’s really only been 2 types of ideas I’ve heard thrown around.
Remove condi cap/make condi cap per player. Which ANet doesn’t want to, as it’ll add server load.
Or the more likely, condi’s will do ‘direct damage’ after cap.
This is going to be tricky to ‘balance’. Is it fair that someone get’s 10sec bleed damage instantly, every attack? No, and likely not going to happen.
Will it be ‘1 tick’ to keep it simple/low server load, as even if it’s say 33% damage, different condi damage, condi duration are going to need ‘rolls’.
If it go’s this way, condi damage will still be super far behind power, but hopefully be enough to get credit for events, even if you do no real help/damage.

The most likely change will just to increase condi damage scaling in pve. The cap isnt an issue in dungeons. If you made condition damage good and removed the cap then you would get a condition stacking team comp instead of a beserker team comp. So making conditions good but keeping the stack will make organised groups mix up their damage with 1 or 2 condition specced players and the rest as beserkers.

Anyway its not coming in the next patch. It could be a few months till we see any change.

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

This seems to indicate they are looking at condition scaling sub 80…. not sure why people are reading into this as a fix for the conditions at 80 problem. They have always said they are looking into, but have no good solution. Can’t increase the bleed cap because of server issues, etc etc.

Xyonon.3987:

25 Stacks are just not enough for bleeding. In a team with 5 players where one is a necro and the other not, 25 stacks are allways on. If there would be no necro, there would be 20 stacks. If there would be only the necro – 20 stacks too.
Sure you can say “thats ok, the necro deals more bleeding and will override weaker bleedings” … WTF!? Even if he does 100 bleeding instead of 50 per tic, he REMOVES other stacks wich would be only an increase of 50 damage. It looks nice at your screen but … after all the necro deals weak condition bleeding right now if he isnt alone.

The bleeding stacks are a mayor issue …

And they said 15. October – today is just open world living story patch!

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Emphasis mine.

Breaking Bad.6241:

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Emphasis mine.

Exactly. Their comment has nothing to do with the primary issues of 1) condition stack caps and 2) condition-immune structures & bosses.

imo single target direct dmg., for aoe conditions/mix.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Breaking Bad.6241:

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Emphasis mine.

Exactly. Their comment has nothing to do with the primary issues of 1) condition stack caps and 2) condition-immune structures & bosses.

Yeah it look like its more of a under leveled scaling fix, not a true buff.

To the issue of Bleed stacking (and other conditions) i have been doing a lot of research and i believe i have figured out ways to manipulate the system in small groups. (not in world events)

UNCONFIRMED
Bleeds use a priority system, not just a “first come first serve” system. I was able to verify that it was NOT based on condition damage “Malice” and it was NOT based on condition duration. I began testing the combination of both or total damage. i.e. if you tool tip states 8s of bleed for 850 damage and your friends states 8s of bleed for 500 damage your bleeds will replace his on the target.

I have tested this with a group of friends, I have pretty much BiS for every slot and i run with an Engi and a War (both pow/crit) it seems like i am able to maintain 18-22 stack of bleed (that i get credit for) and they are only getting credit for < 2-5 stacks at a time. I also seem to be taking credit for out guardians burn.

Overall my DPS seems much higher going full condition ATM and I am not really bothered by the “Condition Cap” in groups. Sorry is this is a well known fact but no one i talk too seems to understand how the stacks are determined.

tattoohead.3217:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Breaking Bad.6241:

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Emphasis mine.

Exactly. Their comment has nothing to do with the primary issues of 1) condition stack caps and 2) condition-immune structures & bosses.

Yeah it look like its more of a under leveled scaling fix, not a true buff.

To the issue of Bleed stacking (and other conditions) i have been doing a lot of research and i believe i have figured out ways to manipulate the system in small groups. (not in world events)

UNCONFIRMED
Bleeds use a priority system, not just a “first come first serve” system. I was able to verify that it was NOT based on condition damage “Malice” and it was NOT based on condition duration. I began testing the combination of both or total damage. i.e. if you tool tip states 8s of bleed for 850 damage and your friends states 8s of bleed for 500 damage your bleeds will replace his on the target.

I have tested this with a group of friends, I have pretty much BiS for every slot and i run with an Engi and a War (both pow/crit) it seems like i am able to maintain 18-22 stack of bleed (that i get credit for) and they are only getting credit for < 2-5 stacks at a time. I also seem to be taking credit for out guardians burn.

Overall my DPS seems much higher going full condition ATM and I am not really bothered by the “Condition Cap” in groups. Sorry is this is a well known fact but no one i talk too seems to understand how the stacks are determined.

I have tested it before, saddly I didn’t make a video. The parameters were as follows:

1. I applied 20+ stacks of bleed to a champion harpy with 2000+ condition damage.
2. I had 3 elementalists with no condition damage Churn at the same time on that harpy.
3. The target went from having around 22 bleeds (all from me) to have 25 bleeds, and I was seeing damage from only one bleed tick.

This proved a few things.

1. It isn’t based on damage, because I had from more damage.
2. It isn’t based on duration, as at least 10 of my bleeds were longer than the churn bleed (a short bleed).
3. It isn’t based of total damage (because of the above two being true).

The system works such that any bleed you put on, if the target has 25 bleeds, will push off the OLDEST bleed. Not the weakest, not the shortest, not the lowest damage, but the OLDEST. That oldest may be a 30 second duration bleed with 2000 condition damage. The game doesn’t care though.

This is the same reason why it is nearly impossible to own more than 1-3 bleeds on a world boss even consecutively auto attacking.

EDIT: And burning, is always consecutive. If I apply a 10 second burn, I get that burn for 10 seconds, even if you apply a 1 second burn immediately after. After my 10 seconds has gone by, you get your 1 second, and the mob is clean.

The only time this doesn’t hold true is if more than 5 sources of burning have been applied. In this case, I am not entirely sure what happens. The system either takes the 6th cast burn, and pushes out the 1st cast burn, passing the burn to the 2nd cast burn immediately, or it ignores the 6th burn until that duration exceeds the first burn time left. I have not bothered to test that particular one much.

Again, if there WAS a priority system, everything would be fine in dungeons. Saddly that is not the case.

Rennoko.5731:

tattoohead.3217:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Breaking Bad.6241:

“We’re also looking to make conditions scale better in PvE/WvW leveling so that they’re more viable at different junctures in the level scale.”

Emphasis mine.

Exactly. Their comment has nothing to do with the primary issues of 1) condition stack caps and 2) condition-immune structures & bosses.

Yeah it look like its more of a under leveled scaling fix, not a true buff.

To the issue of Bleed stacking (and other conditions) i have been doing a lot of research and i believe i have figured out ways to manipulate the system in small groups. (not in world events)

UNCONFIRMED
Bleeds use a priority system, not just a “first come first serve” system. I was able to verify that it was NOT based on condition damage “Malice” and it was NOT based on condition duration. I began testing the combination of both or total damage. i.e. if you tool tip states 8s of bleed for 850 damage and your friends states 8s of bleed for 500 damage your bleeds will replace his on the target.

I have tested this with a group of friends, I have pretty much BiS for every slot and i run with an Engi and a War (both pow/crit) it seems like i am able to maintain 18-22 stack of bleed (that i get credit for) and they are only getting credit for < 2-5 stacks at a time. I also seem to be taking credit for out guardians burn.

Overall my DPS seems much higher going full condition ATM and I am not really bothered by the “Condition Cap” in groups. Sorry is this is a well known fact but no one i talk too seems to understand how the stacks are determined.

I have tested it before, saddly I didn’t make a video. The parameters were as follows:

1. I applied 20+ stacks of bleed to a champion harpy with 2000+ condition damage.
2. I had 3 elementalists with no condition damage Churn at the same time on that harpy.
3. The target went from having around 22 bleeds (all from me) to have 25 bleeds, and I was seeing damage from only one bleed tick.

This proved a few things.

1. It isn’t based on damage, because I had from more damage.
2. It isn’t based on duration, as at least 10 of my bleeds were longer than the churn bleed (a short bleed).
3. It isn’t based of total damage (because of the above two being true).

The system works such that any bleed you put on, if the target has 25 bleeds, will push off the OLDEST bleed. Not the weakest, not the shortest, not the lowest damage, but the OLDEST. That oldest may be a 30 second duration bleed with 2000 condition damage. The game doesn’t care though.

This is the same reason why it is nearly impossible to own more than 1-3 bleeds on a world boss even consecutively auto attacking.

EDIT: And burning, is always consecutive. If I apply a 10 second burn, I get that burn for 10 seconds, even if you apply a 1 second burn immediately after. After my 10 seconds has gone by, you get your 1 second, and the mob is clean.

The only time this doesn’t hold true is if more than 5 sources of burning have been applied. In this case, I am not entirely sure what happens. The system either takes the 6th cast burn, and pushes out the 1st cast burn, passing the burn to the 2nd cast burn immediately, or it ignores the 6th burn until that duration exceeds the first burn time left. I have not bothered to test that particular one much.

Again, if there WAS a priority system, everything would be fine in dungeons. Saddly that is not the case.

Hmm, Im not saying that’s not true… but my experiences has been quite different. Have you tested recently?

What’s super crazy is the roll’s for direct damage are lots more complex.
Power + weapon damage. roll
Did it crit? roll – What’s crit damage? calc.
Weap Sig for extra 5% dam? calc
Traits/Runes for extra dam? calc (most are below x% mob life, extra check)
Vuln for extra dam? calc
What was removed by armor? Calc

Vs Condi
Condi Dam, Roll, Condi Time. Done.

There checking & pushing extra rules for where it go’s on the stack, what is removed from the stack, is crunching extra calc’s for damage that wont even last the 1sec tick in a big world event.

How can this be the ONLY game I know, who’s servers can’t handle DoT/Debuffs?

tattoohead.3217:

Hmm, Im not saying that’s not true… but my experiences has been quite different. Have you tested recently?

I haven’t, but your evidence seems to be anecdotal, and there has been no indication the system has changed. For the sake of argument I will re-test, but I can tell you right now it isn’t likely to have changed.

I have sat through many world bosses recently with 10+ people, and I can guarantee you I am higher condi damage than any of them as my necro is maxed in that respect, but I never hold more than a few bleeds.

I will do a video on it tonight.

Its always been new pushes off old. Same thing happens with might stacks.

Bweaty.9187:

What’s super crazy is the roll’s for direct damage are lots more complex.
Power + weapon damage. roll
Did it crit? roll – What’s crit damage? calc.
Weap Sig for extra 5% dam? calc
Traits/Runes for extra dam? calc (most are below x% mob life, extra check)
Vuln for extra dam? calc
What was removed by armor? Calc

Vs Condi
Condi Dam, Roll, Condi Time. Done.

It’s not that simple. Traiting in curses is not just for the condition damage but also for the precision. Why?

Barbed Precision- Critical Hits have a 66% chance to cause Bleeding (2 sec)
Lingering Curse – Conditions inflicted by scepter skills last 33% longer.
Superior Sigil of Earth +66% chance to inflict critical: inflict bleeding (5 sec)

So, when including buffs and anything I’m forgetting, there is plenty of “Roll”. Regarding the 25 limit, that’s a bit of a problem. But remember that necros can do more than stack bleeds via aoe and death shroud. A common aoe that synergizes with the crit rolls is

Open with staff mostly for the Mark of Blood, switch to scepter/dagger to use as a filler (assuming 25 stacks bleed already up), hit Signet of Spite for multiple conditions, aoe spread with Epidemic, go into Death Shroud and aoe with Life Transfer and Tainted Shackles. Somehow getting bored? Have some fun in Lich Form. Oh and maybe a few more switches to staff if you have Sigil of Geomancy on it and want to aoe bleeding.

That’s the idea, not the rotation that would be used in every encounter. My point really is that bleed builds involve a lot more rolling than just push scepter 1.

What is most important is to make condition damage viable for half the professions in both PvE and WvW. All jobs favor power atm, even Necromancer, which should favor conditions over power. Condi CC is difficult to manage because those condi’s are duration stacking. A zerker build of some generally non-condi class can still apply a CC without sacrificing power.

Xyonon.3987:

Since the Necro is the only class that actually can do a condition build right now that isn’t completly crap – what do you think after some buffs? o.o

condi warr… enginader…

also; i read this as they’re changing how it scales whilst levelling; not fixing condi caps or the many many many encounters in which condis are borderline useless (or actively bad… i noticed one of the golems in SEp1 actually heals from condis?)… then theres the other issue of most condi builds used in pve support the team considerably less (powercro gives considerably more vuln than condicro, which multiplies the teams damage)

Bweaty.9187:

How can this be the ONLY game I know, who’s servers can’t handle DoT/Debuffs?

Because its the only game that has devs stupid enough to make the dots stress the servers by having to check each time a condi ticks or is applied. I know i return a lot to wow so other examples, MS, EQ, automated MuDs plain didnt kittening care to have statistics on debuffs, they just handled them as all other damage.

Andele.1306:

Bweaty.9187:

How can this be the ONLY game I know, who’s servers can’t handle DoT/Debuffs?

Because its the only game that has devs stupid enough to make the dots stress the servers by having to check each time a condi ticks or is applied. I know i return a lot to wow so other examples, MS, EQ, automated MuDs plain didnt kittening care to have statistics on debuffs, they just handled them as all other damage.

This game has dynamic scaling on the dots though. IE it has to check for your might stacks every tick, track back down that source, then check again in 1 second in case it has changed.

Would be an easy fix to just have dots take your current condition damage at time of application, then they don’t need to be re-checked every second.

Look at source condition damage, apply condition with said condition damage, forget source. Simple as that.

Yep, I know other games ‘snapshot’ spell/condition power, duration etc on cast. While it adds for more obsessive OCD combat, where your waiting for your might stacks to get up high, before doing a big condi dump. Id take it over condi’s just being useless at any group type activity in PvE.

gumoor.5674 > I don’t mean doge roll, or rotation roll. I mean server side, roll a dice. Or $Rand(GoD) as I call em.
As for the chance to add condi on crit. That’s actually even more rolls direct damage side, as it’s only direct dam that can crit, not condi’s. So again, that’s a extra roll & all the condition rolls on top if using direct dam.

Rennoko.5731:

Andele.1306:

Bweaty.9187:

How can this be the ONLY game I know, who’s servers can’t handle DoT/Debuffs?

Because its the only game that has devs stupid enough to make the dots stress the servers by having to check each time a condi ticks or is applied. I know i return a lot to wow so other examples, MS, EQ, automated MuDs plain didnt kittening care to have statistics on debuffs, they just handled them as all other damage.

This game has dynamic scaling on the dots though. IE it has to check for your might stacks every tick, track back down that source, then check again in 1 second in case it has changed.

Would be an easy fix to just have dots take your current condition damage at time of application, then they don’t need to be re-checked every second.

Look at source condition damage, apply condition with said condition damage, forget source. Simple as that.

You know that it scales in EQ and WoW too… one of the best pvp lock builds relied on you spiking up the damage your Haunt for Unstable Affliction with spell power trinket actives. Its just a quite rare case since its harder to code.

Dirty cheap afflic locs! I made a Desto to hunt them down face to face like, none of this wimpy hide in the bush’s dot N run!
From what I could tell of my last theory crafting read up. WoW went back to ‘snapshot’ on cast, after LK. There was a new set of mods you could set the threshold of extra spell power & it would warn you went it was worth re-applying your dots. From the guides on BoomKins, the rotation was very OCD with the way you applied your dot’s and reapplied them as you got boosts. (Also even mods that worked out your upload que, to say when you could sneak in extra spells with lag/travel time, while still in a eclipse cycle)

Anyway, I personally much prefer ‘per tick evaluation’. It let’s you just play, and not ‘stress’ about ‘the perfect rotation, thru CD/buff management’.
But Id gladly give it up, for condi stack issue to be fixed.

Bweaty.9187:

What’s super crazy is the roll’s for direct damage are lots more complex.
Power + weapon damage. roll
Did it crit? roll – What’s crit damage? calc.
Weap Sig for extra 5% dam? calc
Traits/Runes for extra dam? calc (most are below x% mob life, extra check)
Vuln for extra dam? calc
What was removed by armor? Calc

Vs Condi
Condi Dam, Roll, Condi Time. Done.

There checking & pushing extra rules for where it go’s on the stack, what is removed from the stack, is crunching extra calc’s for damage that wont even last the 1sec tick in a big world event.

How can this be the ONLY game I know, who’s servers can’t handle DoT/Debuffs?

As mentioned above that is to simple

I think it is more like this:
Direct damage Part on cast:

• Power + weapon damage. roll
• Did it crit? roll – What’s crit damage? calc.
• Weap Sig for extra 5% dam? calc
• Traits/Runes for extra dam? calc (most are below x% mob life, extra check)
• Vuln for extra dam? calc
• What was removed by armor? Calc
  Add condition/boons:
• Conditions/boons from skill? _Ceck Stacklimit -> add
• Did it crit? roll – Apply on crit effect1? (check internal CD + % chance + Stacklimit) -> add.
• Did it crit? roll – Apply on crit effect2? (check internal CD + % chance + Stacklimit) -> add.
• Did it crit? roll – Apply on crit effect3? (check internal CD + % chance + Stacklimit) -> add.
• …

That part is the same for both damage types, but conditions add some extra server load

Condition damage:
Every Second

• Check Condition Stack
• For each Condition:
• Check Condition duration of both players (+ % and – % ) could have changed so Calc
• reduce Timer by 1sec
• Is duration <= 0? -> remove condition
• get Condition Damage from player (could have changed due to Might, sigil/weapon swap, buff-food, …) calculation can be made by the client(?)
• Calculate damage of condition
• Apply damage to target

And I think I still miss something