Guild Wars 2

The announcement of a new DS skill with a new condition generated many suggestion threads, one of which blew up to over 300 replies and 12k views and even included a dev’s appearance.

Now there are two new monster threads developing in the PvP- and Necromancer subforum, both dealing with the shortcomings of the necro class.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/The-state-of-Necromancer/
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Why-necromancers-don-t-quite-cut-it-by-Zzod

After just 3 days their combined post contribution surpassed the “SOTG Interview” thread.

When comparing all of them I had the idea that the new DS skill should focus on the attrition and survival aspect for the necromancer, rather than having the sole purpose of introducing a new condition.

A few aspects to keep in mind for that:

As many necros out there are well aware, we’re really strong in duels. However, we are getting exponentially more fragile the more opponents we have to face.
So how can we increase the necro’s attrition factor against more than one enemy without overpowering us in a 1v1?
And how can we do that while adding some mobility to it?

That’s why I thought the new DS5 skill should be a teleport that increases your survivability relative to the amount of opponents you’re facing.

Here is how I imagine it could work:

• Activating DS5 is done by one of those ground targeting arrows like the warrior’s Whirlwind Attack. So basically you just pick a direction you want to go in.

• Cooldown: 30 seconds.

• Range: 1200. It has to be both short and far enough to be an escape mechanism but also give you the choice to get back into the fight.
  But of course only as far as terrain allows, as in you also can’t RTL through a wall.

• When you activate DS5 you will burn 10% life force (or just the rest if you’re below 10%) and drop you out of Death Shroud, so DS goes on cooldown.
  Why drop out: So this skill won’t be abusable by gathering lf in DS and thereby a player won’t be able to stay in it indefinitely.

• After that you enter a channeling phase of… let’s say 1 second.

• This phase triggers a life force accumulating aoe-attack (range 600 like Life Transfer?), that gets you 10% life force per target. Usual 5 target cap applies, so that means:

1. If there is no target nearby, it’s just a regular teleport and you sacrificed 10%lf for it.
2. If you are in a 1v1: The outcome is exactly the same, you are just standing further away now. Your DS is on cooldown, but you’ll have at least 10% lf to get back into it after 10 seconds.
3. If you are facing 2+ opponents: Now you have an escape mechanism that also generates 20-50% life force.
   So then you have the choice: Back into the fight with more lf than before (but with DS on cooldown) or keep running away.

• Visual-wise: I’m thinking it could have a similar look to epidemic… like the X-Men Nightcrawler teleport.

Synergies:
The trait “Foot in the Grave” would gain a lot more weight if you choose it so the teleport can’t be interrupted during the channeling phase. Maybe it should not be interuptable at all?
It would of course also work with “Deathly Invigoration”.
I’m not sure if the cooldown is appropriate. I’d say it is when it stays at 30 sec, but what if you had “Path of Midnight” and “Near to Death”? I’d like to think that even then you won’t become immortal, because 50% lf every 24 seconds can only do so much against many opponents.

What do you guys think?

What do think about the basic attrition/survival aspect of it: getting some breathing room while accumulating an amount of life force that is relative to the amount of opponents you’re facing.

Underpowered, overpowered?

Should the cooldown be lower or higher?

Should the targets you got lf from be inflicted with the infamous new condition?

Should it do damage? If yes, a large amount or just enough to kill an ambient creature? Should it work on structures like other lf generating attacks?

Should it have a secondary ability like being a leap finisher, condition removal, boon application?

Should the aoe limit apply or should you be able to refill more than 50% lf if a zerg is about to roll over you? (like Signet of the Locus has no limit)

PS: I won’t make an attempt to think of a new condition. I’m not sure the game even needs a new one, because the ones there already are basically cover every possible form of dot, CC or burst damage. Also, as I said we’re all aware how powerful the necro is in 1v1 (with at least some amount of life force), so a new damage-dealing condition seems like something that will only overpower us in duels but doesn’t help us at all against a larger group of people.
But whichever new condition there will be, I’m sure it would work in combination with a teleport skill like this.

Like the idea, but not sure devs want us to have any more mobility. It sounds a bit confusing also.

Try this, what would the tool tip for this ds5 say?

Login.5102:

Like the idea, but not sure devs want us to have any more mobility. It sounds a bit confusing also.

Try this, what would the tool tip for this ds5 say?

Lol, tooltips in this game are usually very vague and incomplete.
So, something like “Teleport and gain Life Force” should suffice. ^^

Just to make it clear, the skill in short would be:

Groundtarget a direction – drop out of DS – 1s channel to gather lf – teleport. done.

DS2 was a ground targetted teleport but they changed it because it was deemed OP.

If anything it crossed my mind a while back that it would be nice to have a unique unstrippable “unstoppable” buff on plague form 4 that would help against getting mired in cc with no way to cleanse, could work for shroud too. Some mobs have this buff. “Unstoppable” makes it so you cannot be stopped or slowed while moving, so no cripple, pushs, fears, etc. Could be a channel like #4.

Would work as a good getaway tool.

I want it to be a condition because DS feels really weak if you’re a condition build with no power.

Undertow.2389:

I want it to be a condition because DS feels really weak if you’re a condition build with no power.

Personally I wish they would simply have a variety of skills available for DS including auto (could be between current and underwater).

You swap out the rest like utilities to match the build you are looking for, attrition/survival heavy, condition, dps, etc. Sort of like the way toolbelt works except we can only access it within DS. Hell, keep us limited to 4 skills works fine now. Just allow us to customize it to fit more our build. For UI think of the Pet Menu for rangers to swap pets.

Or just make two default DS loadouts that you can swap between. Currently the only thing I use it for is to pop in, grab fury and drop AoE weakness, AoE storm, and then pop out. Maybe fear if I am saving someone from a stomp. Most of the time I use it for a glorified recharbable overcloak (which works awesome at anyrate).

Undertow.2389:

I want it to be a condition because DS feels really weak if you’re a condition build with no power.

I didn’t say that it could not be a condition.
It’s just that hardly anyone made any suggestions on how this new condition would be applied, other than “you cast it..”
In fact I’d be really disappointed if it’s just going to be “cast new condition”, unless the condition itself is so groudbreaking that it somehow compensated for the necro’s lack of being able to withstand pressure from multiple opponents. But that I definitely don’t see happening.
And especially as a condition mancer we need more survivability in large scale fights to really be the attrition-class, rather than an extra condition.
That’s why I think the application could be implemented into a skill that promotes the attrition aspect of the class more than the condition itself.

But as I said: We are very strong in 1v1s (yes even pure condi mancers with less power in DS), so does the new condition really need to be one that does a lot of damage? And if, wouldn’t it be boring to get a super fancy new condition (!!!) ooow eeaaaam geeeee…. but it’s really just burning or agony disguised as a different icon.

Bhawb.7408:

We aren’t getting a teleport like this. At best you can dream this up and write fanfiction about it.

So you think it’s overpowered?
Or is it just your low expectations of what Anet will come up with?

I don’t think it is inherently OP (talking specifically of the movement part, not the rest), I just think ANet does not want us to have it. Dark Path used to be a teleport, and they axed it, and I don’t see them giving it back to us. On the same note, they are scaling back (forward) movement on all classes, so I don’t see this happening.

I think DS 5 should be strictly an escape/damage avoidance ability. We don’t need a forward teleport, we need a way to get out.

Bhawb.7408:

On the same note, they are scaling back (forward) movement on all classes, so I don’t see this happening.

Really? How would that even work with so much terrain (especially jumping puzzles) being designed so you can make certain jumps with the current normal movement speed?
And wouldn’t this create even more problems for a class that doesn’t have gap closers, leaps, teleports…?

Bhawb.7408:

I think DS 5 should be strictly an escape/damage avoidance ability. We don’t need a forward teleport, we need a way to get out.

That’s actually exactly what my suggestion would provide.

Not movement speed, but movement abilities. They stated a while ago (and I’m not sure how much they are scaling back, mind you) that they want Thief to be by far the most mobile class. The recent nerf to RTL was part of this. They don’t want every class to have easy access to movement skills that get you around the map faster; as that is supposed to be the Thief’s role.

And yes it would provide an escape. However I think DS should be solely an escape, not a forward moving mechanism. DS 2, while certainly not perfect and needs work, is what we are supposed to use to close gaps, it makes no sense to add in another gap closer to DS. Make it have some kind of damage avoidance/gap creator, without being able to be used in moving faster.

DS#1 and DS#2 need to be made useful before adding a DS#5. My suggestions:

First, make DS#1 do MORE damage at lower life force instead of LESS.

Then, remove “Withering Precision” from “Curses” and replace it with a trait that adds bleed and poison to DS#1.

Also, change “Vampiric Rituals” in “Blood Magic” to add life steal and/or regeneration to DS#1 so that you can heal your actual hit points while in Death Shroud.

And finally, remove “Re-animator” and “Death Nova” from the “Death Magic” line. Replace “Death Nova” with a trait that that summons a Jagged Horror at the target each time DS#1 hits. The Jagged Horrors cast cripple on your target. They create a Death Nova when they are destroyed or when the Necromancer leaves Death Shroud. Replace “Re-animator” with a trait that increases the movement speed of minions.

Now for DS#2. Make an AOE version of DS#1 that benefits from the same traits as DS#1. Adjust the re-cast timer up or down as needed.

Once this is all done, create the DS#5 called “Mark of the Plague” that, for a significant duration, causes weakness and cripple, and a friendly-fire version of fear that causes allies who move near the target to be inflicted with fear.

Bhawb.7408:

They stated a while ago (and I’m not sure how much they are scaling back, mind you) that they want Thief to be by far the most mobile class.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/news/Game-Update-Notes-December-14-2012/first#post1061889

It’s a little contradictory in that Necromancers are supposed to be the chase class by having multiple movement disables (which isn’t exclusive to Necromancers) yet would be unable to chase a Thief. Once a Thief is gone he/she is gone. I would have to devote all three of my utility skills to chasing him/her down (Spectral Walk, Spectral Grasp, and Signet of the Locust). Even if I caught the Thief, I’m already at a disadvantage because I had to expend one or two of the three just to catch the Thief.

I don’t know of anyone who thinks Necro should be a chase class. Given ANet’s view of how a Necromancer should be, I would not expect DS5 to be any kind of movement ability. It would be, most likely, some kind of ability to supplement attrition especially since DS already has Dark Path(DS2).

I would like to make a side-note that I’m utterly disgusted with the direction ANet is taking Necromancer based on their description in the December patch.

Bhawb.7408:

The recent nerf to RTL was part of this.

I thought this was a bug fix, like the extended range of Necrotic Grasp.

Bhawb.7408:

And yes it would provide an escape. However I think DS should be solely an escape, not a forward moving mechanism.
…
Make it have some kind of damage avoidance/gap creator, without being able to be used in moving faster.

An escape that is not a movement skill? A gap creator w/o moving faster?
How is that supposed to work?

BobJoeXXI.2493:

It’s a little contradictory in that Necromancers are supposed to be the chase class by having multiple movement disables (which isn’t exclusive to Necromancers) yet would be unable to chase a Thief. Once a Thief is gone he/she is gone. I would have to devote all three of my utility skills to chasing him/her down (Spectral Walk, Spectral Grasp, and Signet of the Locust). Even if I caught the Thief, I’m already at a disadvantage because I had to expend one or two of the three just to catch the Thief.

Exactly.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

I don’t know of anyone who thinks Necro should be a chase class.

I think Necros are (at least to some extent) a chaser class. Except we don’t chase by running, but by slowing down enemies.

Bhawb.7408:

DS 2, while certainly not perfect and needs work, is what we are supposed to use to close gaps, it makes no sense to add in another gap closer to DS.

BobJoeXXI.2493:

Given ANet’s view of how a Necromancer should be, I would not expect DS5 to be any kind of movement ability. It would be, most likely, some kind of ability to supplement attrition especially since DS already has Dark Path(DS2).

That’s exactly what I was going for.
Again, the focus of DS5 should be the attrition aspect. How can we do that? We certainly don’t need it in 1v1s, we need it against multiple opponents.
Therefore the core principle of my suggestion is: Sacrifice Life Force, but gain more when you have to fight many enemies at once.
And all of that would be useless if we didn’t also create some space between us and our opponents, that’s why it should be a teleport… to create distance, not to reduce it.

If you want to use it as a gap closer… fine, but you’ll sacrifice life force when you go into Death Shroud, you sacrifice a lot when you activate the skill, you put DS on cooldown and the escape skill itself.
So you would not really be super mobile with it, like spamming Infiltrator’s Arrow. And you would have to think about if it’s worth it to chase after someone with half your skills on cooldown (like in the thief example that BobJoeXXI made).

Dark Path on the other hand fills a very differnt role. This is basically the definition of a gap closer, it teleports you directly to your target (my DS5 would have a fix travel distance) and it doesn’t teleport you anywhere if there is no target at all.
Also it’s a really agressive skill: it chills, bleeds and inflicts a decent amount of direct damage.
Depending on the new condition, my DS5 does not need to do any damage at all. But if it comes with damage (through direct dmg or by whatever the new condition does) then only the area where you teleport away from is affected, not your target area. Again: a defensive aspect, boosting the attrition aspect.

Oh… and I forgot to say: One of the reasons why I would want it to have a relatively long channeling time is so that your traveling speed wouldn’t improve that much.
Maybe the channeling phase would last about as long as it would take you to run at least half or maybe even the full distance.
So if you want to get somewhere faster, this just might not be all that helpful. But in combat it would create some breathing room, also your opponents would of course not be able to tell from the channel animation alone in which direction you will be going.

I agree with “DS5 should not be a new condition” as we actually need more mobility and damage mitigation but if DS5 is not a new condition then the statement below is true.

I want it to be a condition because DS feels really weak if you’re a condition build with no power.

So we come to a conclusion that DS5 should not be a dry skill that either just teleports, or deals damage/applies a condition etc.

If DS5 has to be a new condition , it has to scale well-not only with condition- but with power builds also, and it has to give us a chance to either get away or catch our target.

I have made this post suggesting some (small)changes on DS(life blast + terror) and a few ideas for DS5. I really want to see a condition like the one I suggested(spoiler: there CAN be a new condition that is not yet in)

Check it out and give some feedback, what we-necromancers-need right now is discussion.
I actually do not believe that any of what I said is OP and as you can see(not only from my suggestions) there is a huge variety of abilities that we can use on DS5 and not make it OP but help us fix the meatshield called DS.

It’s not bad, but I think that since we already have a teleport on DS2 it would be easier to simply argue for some quality of life improvements to that skill, rather than adding a second port. I agree with the overall premise though – I’d much rather see A.Net begin to deal with the (currently almost non-existent) attrition aspect of the class instead of adding more conditions to the mix.

Overall I think death shroud skills suffer a bit from the dual nature of the class. Offensive death shroud skills have to be useful to both power builds and condition builds, and so by design will often become an underwhelming hybrid, or simply cater to either one or the other. However, defensive skills, or skills that provide some sort of utility, are often equally valuable regardless of build. That’s another reason why I’d much rather see some attrition-based mechanics in DS as a whole.

- Mana

I agree that adding a 5th skill to DS with the main theme of it being “a new condition” is totally the wrong way to go. You need to fix a lot of other things that we already have first and if you want to improve the class by adding something, one 5th DS ability won’t cut it at all. In fact it can even make balancing the class more messed up in the future. I hear devs tend to say “you have yet to master death shroud” or something like that. Then they add a 5th skill and might end up thinking that this statement has more ground to it.

All in all the class needs fixing of the things we already have before adding something, or you can add something only when you have an overall plan of what to do with everything the class has and pretty much do it all at the same time or in a short window. If you just simplemindedly slap a new ability to DS without any back thoughts or plans of what to do with the whole class(and this big picture plan of course has this new DS ability in it), you will most likely end up in an ever bigger mess.

@flow

Yes/No. RTL had its range fixed to its proper length, but now it has double CD if it does not hit a target, effectively meaning if you wish to use RTL as a movement ability only, it will cost you, whereas using it as a gap closer to an enemy will not.

Spectral Return, Portal, Nectrotic Traversal, Mesmer staff 2, and some Thief abilities (maybe some abilities elsewhere I am not aware of), are all examples of abilities that either return you to somewhere you previously were, or create a gap, without being “movement” skills in the sense that they don’t allow you to get forward faster. Specifically, ANet doesn’t want certain class, especially Necromancers to become highly mobile roamers that can get all over the map quickly like a Thief. These abilities allow the person to make room between themselves and a player, or in other cases get back somewhere quickly, but they don’t allow you to actually roam around effectively.

On the other hand, RTL, Blink, Flash, and the various Shadowsteps Thief have are all able to be used to roam. We will never get those kinds of abilities that allow us to be roamers, what we are more likely to get are gap closers/creators. More specifically, ways to be more mobile in combat and not outside of it.

Bhawb.7408:

@We will never get those kinds of abilities that allow us to be roamers, what we are more likely to get are gap closers/creators. More specifically, ways to be more mobile in combat and not outside of it.

I don’t think ANet will give Necromancer any more gap closers/creators but more movement disabelers as that’s how they define us as a chaser class. If they were to give us something that would enhance us as a “chase class” they would give us something with cripple, immobilize, or chill. I, however, don’t think this DS5 would be any movement oriented ability, though.

I think it would be pretty awesome if DS5 healed your health. Maybe it applies a condition called Wither which deals massive damage/second and heals the applier for a large portion of the damage dealt. Make DS5 apply it in an AoE and suddenly the Necro becomes a serious master of attrition, even against multiple opponents.

Bhawb.7408:

Yes/No. RTL had its range fixed to its proper length, but now it has double CD if it does not hit a target, effectively meaning if you wish to use RTL as a movement ability only, it will cost you, whereas using it as a gap closer to an enemy will not.

The same could also apply to an extra teleport for the necromancer. In this case, when there’s nothing nearby to get lf from then the cd is doubled. (as an example..)

Blaine Tog.8304:

I think it would be pretty awesome if DS5 healed your health. Maybe it applies a condition called Wither which deals massive damage/second and heals the applier for a large portion of the damage dealt. Make DS5 apply it in an AoE and suddenly the Necro becomes a serious master of attrition, even against multiple opponents.

I guess that could work as well. It would be similar to burning + the active part of Signet of the Locust.
On the other hand, if Anet wanted the necro to be able to heal in DS they would have implemented this a long time ago. There are already so many threads with complaints about how healing skills don’t affect our hp in DS. But maybe that’s one of the things that the necro could really use, have other people heal your hp while you soak up damage in DS. Or make life siphoning possible this way…

flow.6043:

The same could also apply to an extra teleport for the necromancer. In this case, when there’s nothing nearby to get lf from then the cd is doubled. (as an example..)

We aren’t supposed to be mobile. We are not getting a forward teleport/movement because it is against the profession design ANet wants for us. It is not a matter of increasing CD if we use it as a movement ability, its a matter of it just isn’t going to happen (unless I’ve totally misread ANet).

We have 2 ways to physically get closer to our opponent, Spectral Grasp and Dark Path. I wouldn’t be surprised if we got more love on the side of pulls, but we aren’t going to be getting lots of gap closers (they want us to use conditions to stay in range more than anything).