Guild Wars 2

5: Dark Armor: Gain 400 toughness when channeling.
(Move the Jagged Horror to the I Trait.)

15: Shrouded Removal: Remove a condition when entering Death Shroud.
(Move Protection of the Horde to the VI Trait.)

This benefits all Necromancers, 5/15 traits that only effect one build should not exist, plus its annoying since almost every necromancer takes these traits.

Shrouded Removal could also convert the condition into a buff.

Yep agreed. So useful in pvp to summon a jagged horror when you finish someone, or gain health when you finish someone.

So useful.

Anets image of the necromancer. (Not ours. Our opinion doesn’t matter. It’s their game, not ours)

Ruufio.1496:

Yep agreed. So useful in pvp to summon a jagged horror when you finish someone, or gain health when you finish someone.

So useful.

Anets image of the necromancer. (Not ours. Our opinion doesn’t matter. It’s their game, not ours)

Dark Armor and Condition Cures with Death Shroud help all necromancers, 5/15/25 traits should be good for everyone, not optional things.

Yeah I was agreeing with you lol.

yeah, gain health with our opponents death. Is that a joke? I mean, how is that an attrition class. How can you outlast someone if you only gain health when they die. To top things off, 5 seconds after the opponent goes down, you start regenning health big time anyways, with the game mechanics. SO that 200 health i got when the enemy went down, IS A JOKE when i rapid heal to 25k hps a few seconds later.

Gryph.8237:

yeah, gain health with our opponents death. Is that a joke? I mean, how is that an attrition class. How can you outlast someone if you only gain health when they die. To top things off, 5 seconds after the opponent goes down, you start regenning health big time anyways, with the game mechanics. SO that 200 health i got when the enemy went down, IS A JOKE when i rapid heal to 25k hps a few seconds later.

It’s not so useful in a one on one sPvP fight, to be sure. But it’s pretty useful in PvE, especially dungeons that spawn a lot of weak monsters to try and swarm the players.

Edit – As for the actual topic: Dark Armor actually only works with a small subset of our abilities: Life Siphon, Ghastly Claws, Life Transfer, and none of our underwater abilities. Plus, 400 toughness is a drop in the bucket at 80, and the toughness scales down with effective level. So I’m not sure it’s really a good candidate for the slot, as much as it’s “anything that isn’t reanimator”.

Shrouded Removal works a little bit against the basic principle of underwater Death Shroud’s Life Blast. That is, to shoot your conditions back at your foes. I’m not sure how concerned about that I am even in this context, but I thought I should bring it up. I was also going to say it might be a bit too strong as well, but you’re upgrading an Adept Major to a Master Minor, so the power trade might work out there.

Softspoken.2410:

Gryph.8237:

yeah, gain health with our opponents death. Is that a joke? I mean, how is that an attrition class. How can you outlast someone if you only gain health when they die. To top things off, 5 seconds after the opponent goes down, you start regenning health big time anyways, with the game mechanics. SO that 200 health i got when the enemy went down, IS A JOKE when i rapid heal to 25k hps a few seconds later.

It’s not so useful in a one on one sPvP fight, to be sure. But it’s pretty useful in PvE, especially dungeons that spawn a lot of weak monsters to try and swarm the players.

Edit – As for the actual topic: Dark Armor actually only works with a small subset of our abilities: Life Siphon, Ghastly Claws, Life Transfer, and none of our underwater abilities. Plus, 400 toughness is a drop in the bucket at 80, and the toughness scales down with effective level. So I’m not sure it’s really a good candidate for the slot, as much as it’s “anything that isn’t reanimator”.

Shrouded Removal works a little bit against the basic principle of underwater Death Shroud’s Life Blast. That is, to shoot your conditions back at your foes. I’m not sure how concerned about that I am even in this context, but I thought I should bring it up. I was also going to say it might be a bit too strong as well, but you’re upgrading an Adept Major to a Master Minor, so the power trade might work out there.

Yeah, i’ve always thought that trait was a bit strong for a minor one, so I moved it to 15, making it a major trait.

The problem is, they don’t have to transfer conditions immediately, the necromancer could gain another one even after they enter DS and transfer it.

Could be useful but also op.

Oscar.4628:

Could be useful but also op.

Well, atleast necromancers may have something “a little OP” about them. (but moving that trait to a major from a minor is kind of a balance thing.)

I play a Necromancer, I have 20 points in toughness, this is what they currently do for me.

5: sometimes makes a dumb pet that dies immediately after it spawns.
15:

Isn’t this some kind of problem?

Daecollo.9578:

Oscar.4628:

Could be useful but also op.

Well, atleast necromancers may have something “a little OP” about them. (but moving that trait to a major from a minor is kind of a balance thing.)

I play a Necromancer, I have 20 points in toughness, this is what they currently do for me.

5: sometimes makes a dumb pet that dies immediately after it spawns.
15:

Isn’t this some kind of problem?

I do agree, and I always think it’s kind of an obvious thing to do; to change those two minor traits. In every patch and update I just assume they’ll do it, but they never do.

Why not give something that adds to your toughness and something that adds to boons since this tree adds boon duration. Like 5 being something somewhat along the lines of 400 toughness while channelling (which actually, at Lv80 400 toughness does matter. For a non toughness build 400 toughness would be kitten, while for a toughness build it’s still a really good help), and the 15 being something like “gain 3 seconds of protection whenever you go into death shroud”, something like that.

As it is those two minors are ridiculous.

On a side note; if 400 toughness doesn’t matter why do people bother making exotic armor instead of sticking to rare? Because the armor different and stat differences from rare to exotic isn’t even 400 each.

A weapon (one handed) from rare to exotic gains about 200 damage increase and 31 stat points over all increase. 400 points is a big deal.

You want to talk about OP?
Forget losing conditions, how about:
15 – Entering DS converts a condition into a boon.
5 sec duration, same conversion table as Well of Power.

5: Gain 1% Life Force every second.
15: Create a “Combo Field: Dark” for 5 seconds while reviving an ally.
25: Heal yourself when applying a condition to a foe.
Triggers healing for every condition applied. Applying area-of-effect conditions will trigger healing for each enemy affected and skills that apply conditions repeatedly over time, such as wells will trigger healing with each pulse.

At level 80, the amount healed per condition is 45 + 0.05 * Healing Power

There fixed it.

Daecollo.9578:

5: Gain 1% Life Force every second.
15: Create a “Combo Field: Dark” for 5 seconds while reviving an ally.
25: Heal yourself when applying a condition to a foe.
Triggers healing for every condition applied. Applying area-of-effect conditions will trigger healing for each enemy affected and skills that apply conditions repeatedly over time, such as wells will trigger healing with each pulse.

At level 80, the amount healed per condition is 45 + 0.05 * Healing Power

There fixed it.

5: belongs in the Soul Reaping trait line.
15: Replaces Mark of Revival, which is a Soul Reaping trait, funnily enough.
25: looks like the Condition verson of Vampiric, which seems more suited to either the Blood Magic or even Curses trait lines.

Softspoken.2410:

Daecollo.9578:

5: Gain 1% Life Force every second.
15: Create a “Combo Field: Dark” for 5 seconds while reviving an ally.
25: Heal yourself when applying a condition to a foe.
Triggers healing for every condition applied. Applying area-of-effect conditions will trigger healing for each enemy affected and skills that apply conditions repeatedly over time, such as wells will trigger healing with each pulse.

At level 80, the amount healed per condition is 45 + 0.05 * Healing Power

There fixed it.

5: belongs in the Soul Reaping trait line.
15: Replaces Mark of Revival, which is a Soul Reaping trait, funnily enough.
25: looks like the Condition verson of Vampiric, which seems more suited to either the Blood Magic or even Curses trait lines.

This is necromancer, we have “on crit” procs scattered everywhere. Lol.

Might as well keep up the pace, no?

Daecollo.9578:

This is necromancer, we have “on crit” procs scattered everywhere. Lol.

Might as well keep up the pace, no?

The only ‘on critical’ trait (one of four) that isn’t in Curses is Vampiric Precision, which is a healing trait, which is in Blood Magic.

Also: pointing at a mistake isn’t a good reason to keep making that mistake.

EDIT: That said, I feel like Death Magic doesn’t have a great trait identity besides for minions right now. I think it needs to focus a bit more on giving boons out, and I will admit my bias/hope for Vigor right here and now.

Softspoken.2410:

Daecollo.9578:

This is necromancer, we have “on crit” procs scattered everywhere. Lol.

Might as well keep up the pace, no?

The only ‘on critical’ trait that isn’t in Curses is Vampiric Precision, which is a healing trait, which is in Blood Magic. Our other three are all in Curses.

Also: pointing at a mistake isn’t a good reason to keep making that mistake.

EDIT: That said, I feel like Death Magic doesn’t have a great trait identity besides for minions right now. I think it needs to focus a bit more on giving boons out, and I will admit my bias/hope for Vigor right here and now.

Actually, what if “Hits stole a small amount of Endurance from the target?”

Daecollo.9578:

Actually, what if “Hits stole a small amount of Endurance from the target?”

<3

I’d certainly enjoy it. Necromancers need better ways to play with their own endurance, in my opinion.

Or a chance to get vigor when struck maybe?

I agree that the minion minors need to be changed, but I don’t want to see them totally removed. The problem is there is nowhere to put them in the major traits. Unless they get merged with Minion Master and Flesh of the Master. But ANet may not be open to doing that.

TBH I think minions have a lot more value than people are giving them atm. It’s not really about whether or not taking all minions is good. It isn’t. Mostly because their active skills don’t go together. At all. It’s about which minions can be helpful to the main function of your build. Bone Fiend goes great with wells because it’s another way to CC your foe in them, plus it has projectile finishers to shoot through your combo fields. Bone Minions provide blast finishers and decent AoE. Flesh Wurm provides a teleport and stun break, as well as no small amount of damage. Flesh Golem is great for tanking trash mobs, and deals pretty fantastic damage. Golem also goes great with wells because of charge, yet another CC for your enemies. Only Shadow Fiend seems to be useless. It provides a tiny AoE blind that takes quite some time to fire off. All of this depends on the AI, but I haven’t had any issues with it lately. As long as you initiate the fight with a direct attack (usually Focus #4 for me) the minions happily join in.

Why would you waste a utility slot on a minion over a well?

Because sometimes CC and finishers is more useful than a well. I’ve had great success running Bone Minions and Bone Fiend with Well of Suffering and Well of Blood for example. And have you ever used the Fetid Consumption trait? It’s incredible. I barely ever have conditions on me.

What would I add? Well of Corruption? Why? I have boon stripping with my Focus and don’t have any condition damage. Well of Power? I have a condition cleanse on my Staff and never have to use it anyway because of Fetid Consumption. Bone Minions provide AoE damage and AoE retaliation. Bone Fiend provides an extra immobilize. I don’t see how those are less useful than the two wells I’m not using. Especially since I’m running D/F and need the AoE damage and the extra immob, but not boon stripping or condition removal.

Morvian.3270:

Because sometimes CC and finishers is more useful than a well. I’ve had great success running Bone Minions and Bone Fiend with Well of Suffering and Well of Blood for example. And have you ever used the Fetid Consumption trait? It’s incredible. I barely ever have conditions on me.

What would I add? Well of Corruption? Why? I have boon stripping with my Focus and don’t have any condition damage. Well of Power? I have a condition cleanse on my Staff and never have to use it anyway because of Fetid Consumption. Bone Minions provide AoE damage and AoE retaliation. Bone Fiend provides an extra immobilize. I don’t see how those are less useful than the two wells I’m not using. Especially since I’m running D/F and need the AoE damage and the extra immob, but not boon stripping or condition removal.

I’d rather help the entire group with wells then myself, and then use the well that converts all my conditions into buffs…

Here’s my suggestion for at least one of them. How about… (prepare to be amazed)

Convert 5% of Toughness to Condition Damage.

Where is our 5% as condition damage trait?!

Oh it’s in the freakin’ Mesmer’s traitlines…smh.

This would be a perfect fit considering the Death Magic trait is the toughness line…I realize the 25 pt is 5% of toughness = power, but come on. How many necros really go 25+ points into toughness and are running ‘Power’ builds vs. ‘Condition?’ Where is the condition dmg love?

Rune of the Undead (6) = Convert 5% toughness to cond. dmg.

…Undead…

So why the kitten does Mesmer get this traitline…and not a necro? I’d be fine sharing but that seems like a load of crap.

I like how the condition damage is with precision in Curses, when condition damage cant crit.

Talentless.5708:

I like how the condition damage is with precision in Curses, when condition damage cant crit.

No, but crits can cause damaging conditions. It still makes sense.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Talentless.5708:

I like how the condition damage is with precision in Curses, when condition damage cant crit.

No, but crits can cause damaging conditions. It still makes sense.

good point.

The best trait on necro: Getting 5secs of retaliation after healing. Heal and watch tiefs kill themselfs :> Im joking btw, i dont use it since im specing in a PVE/WVW AoE Condition build but it would still be fun. 3 Secs after entering DS and more 5 Secs after Heal. Shame that i cant get it because i cant leave my 0/30/10/10/20

I feel that the trait lines in general need a complete reorganization, the weapon-related traits are oddly spread over multiple lines, the stat boosts are attached in a strange way to the trait lines as well (power and condition duration, wut?) and the whole thing is rather sub-optimal.

I’m all for meaningful choices which can have drawbacks (you can get A, but not A + B ) but there is a limit…

I object to moving Shrouded Removal to 15 points, it is a key part of my build and I’d hate to have to give something else up to get it.

Shrouded Removal is a bit to powerful for a minor trait anyways, and moving it to a 15 pt build wouldn’t exactly be a waste of points to spend, since it would open up more viability to a minor trait as well.

5% of toughness = power should be changed and renamed, it should be 5% of toughness = Condition Damage, Power Necromancers benefit from Daggers, and the Toughness tree mostly benefits staffs (condition damage weapon.)

Spite:
Parasitic Bond: Gain Life when you kill something. If you killed something the fights already over anyways.

Parasitic Bond: Gain a small amount of life when you apply a condition to a foe.

par·a·sit·ic (pr-stk) also par·a·sit·i·cal (—kl)
adj.
1. Of, relating to, or characteristic of a parasite.
2. Caused by a parasite: parasitic diseases.

Daecollo.9578:

5% of toughness = power should be changed and renamed, it should be 5% of toughness = Condition Damage, Power Necromancers benefit from Daggers, and the Toughness tree mostly benefits staffs (condition damage weapon.)

+100000000000000000000000000000000000000

Get out of here. Don’t touch my Shrouded Removal

NO a million bajillion times. Reanimator and Protection of the Horde stay exactly where they are. So you don’t have a build that specializes around minions. Not every minor traits has to be condusive to your picture of a necromancer.

That’s like saying thieves shouldn’t have all these stealth minor traits in Shadow Arts, or the Elementalists shouldn’t have minor traits that only buff them when they’re attuned to earth in their freaking EARTH MAGIC trait line. It is the DEATH MAGIC trait line; it has MINIONS, because it is DEATH MAGIC. If you don’t want death magic traits, don’t spec death magic. Simple enough?

Reanimator, I’m honestly fine with right where it is. Protection of the Horde is what needs to change as it is a minor trait that provides zero benefit to most builds. Honestly, though, simply swapping it with Deadly Strength would do a lot, since both Grandmaster Death Magic traits are minion-related. Could use a numbers boost then, but at least it would make sense.

Unlike necros, thieves get bonuses from stealth, and I am NOT talking about traits. As such, the traits aren’t a bad idea as they provide extra rewards for a thief doing what they get bonuses for anyway. Elementalists may only get their benefits while attuned to that element, but there is literally no elementalist build that can’t swap to that attunement and get those benefits.

Not unlike necros, thieves get bonuses from stealth. Necros get bonuses from minions. Minions are minions and they do stuff (damage and bleed and distraction/blocking) Protection of the Horde and Reanimator work together to basically give you temporary bonus toughness every time you kill something. You can take more advantage of it by also taking minion utilities, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Just like even if you don’t particularly care for stealth on your thief, you might not want your first shadow arts minor trait Last Refuge, and you certainly wouldn’t care for extending stealth duration with the master level Meld with Shadows or the grandmaster Hidden Master, but the first one is improved by the other two in case you ever choose to utilize it. Thieves don’t get any significant bonuses from stealth without traits; they get 1 attack modified the first time as they leave stealth (they don’t even get that if one of their other attacks lands as they are getting stealthed). Using that as the example why Shadow Arts is justified is ridiculous. Hey guess what, Jagged horrors die and give you Life Force, Necros get bonuses for having minions. Problem solved?

Sure, elementalists can swap to earth to utilize their traits, but they shouldn’t have to if it isn’t part of their build right? All of the element specific Adept minor traits are only while attuned to their respective element. How dare they make sit in elemental attunement that I don’t want just to utilize my otherwise useless trait? Or you could admit that the minor trait doesn’t always match exactly how you want to play, but it provides a nominal benefit in the right circumstance, even if you don’t center your build around it.

Jagged Horrors don’t give life force. Most minions don’t.

As I said, Reanimator I feel is fine. It’s a little something extra. Last Refuge is too. Neither trait is wasted even if you don’t spec into that kind of build, and thieves do get that bonus stuff when attacking from stealth.

Protection of the Horde, on the other hand, gives no benefit at all until it doesn’t matter in most situations unless you are running a minion build. That is the main difference between Shadow Arts and Death Magic minor traits. Stealth in combat is always relevant. 20 toughness after combat is over is not.

Solesaver.8764:

Not unlike necros, thieves get bonuses from stealth. Necros get bonuses from minions. Minions are minions and they do stuff (damage and bleed and distraction/blocking) Protection of the Horde and Reanimator work together to basically give you temporary bonus toughness every time you kill something. You can take more advantage of it by also taking minion utilities, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Just like even if you don’t particularly care for stealth on your thief, you might not want your first shadow arts minor trait Last Refuge, and you certainly wouldn’t care for extending stealth duration with the master level Meld with Shadows or the grandmaster Hidden Master, but the first one is improved by the other two in case you ever choose to utilize it. Thieves don’t get any significant bonuses from stealth without traits; they get 1 attack modified the first time as they leave stealth (they don’t even get that if one of their other attacks lands as they are getting stealthed). Using that as the example why Shadow Arts is justified is ridiculous. Hey guess what, Jagged horrors die and give you Life Force, Necros get bonuses for having minions. Problem solved?

Sure, elementalists can swap to earth to utilize their traits, but they shouldn’t have to if it isn’t part of their build right? All of the element specific Adept minor traits are only while attuned to their respective element. How dare they make sit in elemental attunement that I don’t want just to utilize my otherwise useless trait? Or you could admit that the minor trait doesn’t always match exactly how you want to play, but it provides a nominal benefit in the right circumstance, even if you don’t center your build around it.

Minions are not what necromancer should be amount, necromancers are a master of poison/chill/death, Minions are basicly death, and the tree should not favor one over the other.

To my build, it provides little to no benefit, and some times helps the enemy more then me. Therefore it is a detriment.

I added to it things that would help all necromancers equally, but your speaking to one who HATES minions, and almost all necromancers are forced into the toughness tree.

Daecollo.9578:

Minions are not what necromancer should be amount, necromancers are a master of poison/chill/death, Minions are basicly death, and the tree should not favor one over the other.

To my build, it provides little to no benefit, and some times helps the enemy more then me. Therefore it is a detriment.

I added to it things that would help all necromancers equally, but your speaking to one who HATES minions, and almost all necromancers are forced into the toughness tree.

I would say that necros are about Spite, Curses, Death Magic, Blood Magic, and Soul Reaping. That is why there are 5 different trait lines, one dedicated to each. The Death Magic trait line, naturally, is all about the Death Magic, which in the Guild Wars Universe means Minions.

If minions provide little to no benefit to your build, consider not using death magic. Or maybe do use death magic and find a way that the minions can help your build. Instead of trying to figure out how ArenaNet can change the options to make your build better, change your build to be as good as can be with the options given. And no, there is not a single way that you having an extra minion out helps your enemy. It just doesn’t happen. If it does happen any more (which it doesn’t) then it is a bug that should be addressed as such.

Not all necromancers are forced into the death magic tree. There are 5 trees, all of them pretty good. 1 of them is about Death Magic and therefore minions. There are 4 other trees with different stats and different traits. If you HATE minions so much, don’t make a build that involves using the trait line dedicated to minions.

I personally am opposed to people messing with the Death Magic trait line because I LOVE minions. I chose to go with a tanky build because the Death Magic trait line is the toughness trait line. See how I shaped my build around the options presented to me. If Death Magic had been the Power trait line that is what I would have done. I don’t want the trait line to change because putting in those ‘helps everyone’ traits does not help me. I am helped by traits that help my minions. Because the trait line is the way it is I am able to take Reanimator, Minion Master, Protection of the Horde, Flesh of the Master, Deadly Strength (look a minor trait I don’t prefer but I worked into my build by focusing on power for my damage), and Death Nova.

The game of theory-crafting and character building is not about thinking of the limitless possible combinations of things you could do; it is about taking the options presented to you and finding the best combinations. Learn to build with what you have, not what you wish you had.

Solesaver.8764:

Daecollo.9578:

Minions are not what necromancer should be amount, necromancers are a master of poison/chill/death, Minions are basicly death, and the tree should not favor one over the other.

To my build, it provides little to no benefit, and some times helps the enemy more then me. Therefore it is a detriment.

I added to it things that would help all necromancers equally, but your speaking to one who HATES minions, and almost all necromancers are forced into the toughness tree.

I would say that necros are about Spite, Curses, Death Magic, Blood Magic, and Soul Reaping. That is why there are 5 different trait lines, one dedicated to each. The Death Magic trait line, naturally, is all about the Death Magic, which in the Guild Wars Universe means Minions.

If minions provide little to no benefit to your build, consider not using death magic. Or maybe do use death magic and find a way that the minions can help your build. Instead of trying to figure out how ArenaNet can change the options to make your build better, change your build to be as good as can be with the options given. And no, there is not a single way that you having an extra minion out helps your enemy. It just doesn’t happen. If it does happen any more (which it doesn’t) then it is a bug that should be addressed as such.

Not all necromancers are forced into the death magic tree. There are 5 trees, all of them pretty good. 1 of them is about Death Magic and therefore minions. There are 4 other trees with different stats and different traits. If you HATE minions so much, don’t make a build that involves using the trait line dedicated to minions.

I personally am opposed to people messing with the Death Magic trait line because I LOVE minions. I chose to go with a tanky build because the Death Magic trait line is the toughness trait line. See how I shaped my build around the options presented to me. If Death Magic had been the Power trait line that is what I would have done. I don’t want the trait line to change because putting in those ‘helps everyone’ traits does not help me. I am helped by traits that help my minions. Because the trait line is the way it is I am able to take Reanimator, Minion Master, Protection of the Horde, Flesh of the Master, Deadly Strength (look a minor trait I don’t prefer but I worked into my build by focusing on power for my damage), and Death Nova.

The game of theory-crafting and character building is not about thinking of the limitless possible combinations of things you could do; it is about taking the options presented to you and finding the best combinations. Learn to build with what you have, not what you wish you had.

Almost all necromancer builds use staff, this is basicly atleast 10 or 20 points in death magic alone.

If you cannot see the inconsistency in the traits and how worthless they are, then speaking to you about it in a discussion is kind of pointless, the traits that benefit one thing should be removed, and this is one, if not the biggest complaint of the necromancer class itself.

Daecollo.9578:

If you cannot see the inconsistency in the traits and how worthless they are, then speaking to you about it in a discussion is kind of pointless, the traits that benefit one thing should be removed, and this is one, if not the biggest complaint of the necromancer class itself.

If you cannot see how the traits are just as consistent as they are in other places, how they make sense, and their arrangement can be very valuable when making builds based on the actual options (rather than theory-crafting impossible builds because they don’t actually exist), then speaking to you about it in a discussion is kind of pointless.

The only reason I even bothered coming here to argue about it is to make sure ArenaNet doesn’t just see people whining about it, but rather they can read how some people (though noticeably less vocal) understand what is going on and have some picture of how the trait system works. In seeing this they might avoid making the bad decision of messing with these perfectly fine traits just because some people don’t understand that the Death Magic trait line is all about minions.

Solesaver.8764:

Daecollo.9578:

If you cannot see the inconsistency in the traits and how worthless they are, then speaking to you about it in a discussion is kind of pointless, the traits that benefit one thing should be removed, and this is one, if not the biggest complaint of the necromancer class itself.

If you cannot see how the traits are just as consistent as they are in other places, how they make sense, and their arrangement can be very valuable when making builds based on the actual options (rather than theory-crafting impossible builds because they don’t actually exist), then speaking to you about it in a discussion is kind of pointless.

The only reason I even bothered coming here to argue about it is to make sure ArenaNet doesn’t just see people whining about it, but rather they can read how some people (though noticeably less vocal) understand what is going on and have some picture of how the trait system works. In seeing this they might avoid making the bad decision of messing with these perfectly fine traits just because some people don’t understand that the Death Magic trait line is all about minions.

I guess that is why it has staffs/wells/death shroud condition removal skills in it.

Solesaver.8764:

Not unlike necros, thieves get bonuses from stealth. Necros get bonuses from minions. Minions are minions and they do stuff (damage and bleed and distraction/blocking) Protection of the Horde and Reanimator work together to basically give you temporary bonus toughness every time you kill something. You can take more advantage of it by also taking minion utilities, but it isn’t absolutely necessary. Just like even if you don’t particularly care for stealth on your thief, you might not want your first shadow arts minor trait Last Refuge, and you certainly wouldn’t care for extending stealth duration with the master level Meld with Shadows or the grandmaster Hidden Master, but the first one is improved by the other two in case you ever choose to utilize it. Thieves don’t get any significant bonuses from stealth without traits; they get 1 attack modified the first time as they leave stealth (they don’t even get that if one of their other attacks lands as they are getting stealthed). Using that as the example why Shadow Arts is justified is ridiculous. Hey guess what, Jagged horrors die and give you Life Force, Necros get bonuses for having minions. Problem solved?

To rewind the conversation a bit, there’s still a few significant differences between stealth and minions that I want to bring up.

On a purely technical note, thieves have fairly simple access to stealth from weapon sets: Anything with a dagger offhand has it with one skill, and dagger/pistol has it as a natural combo without swapping weapons. Necromancers can’t get a minion from any weapon, although they can have one for an elite.
The reason this is important is, stealth is a natural part of many thief weapon sets, and thus a natural part of most thieves. The only thief weapon set pairs that have zero access to stealth is a combination of shortbow, pistol / pistol, and sword / pistol. So I’d assert that the incidental amount of stealth is pretty significant for a thief.

The second and probably more subjective point is, I can’t easily view minions as a defensive choice. If you play minions for defense, you’re relying on your opponent to make the wrong choice to not waste your utility slots completely. And any time that you can force your opponent to attack your minions instead of you, you probably could have forced them to not attack anything at all. But stealth is an obvious defensive choice, even untraited, because it removes targeting. Now some some enemy skills simply cannot work, and you’re hard to follow, allowing for easier disengagement or making your enemy waste cooldowns trying to snag you.

EDIT: To refer to the more current conversation – I don’t see why any necromancer minor traits have to be dedicated solely to a skill category exclusive to the necromancer. Minions are unusual in that there is also a heal and an elite skill option, but it’s still far from a guarantee that players will just happen to have a minion skill.
Compare it to blood magic – Sure it has a lot of (really good) traits about wells, but none of them are on the minors.

EDIT2: I’ve been thinking about this a bit more, and I’m embarassed I never pointed it out, but there could be some difficulty with allowing traits like Protection of the Horde and Flesh of the Master compete for the same major trait slot, as well as Reanimator and Training of the Master. Since they all scream ‘minion traits’, you have to make sure that they have drastically different appeals. Look at Death Nova and Necromantic Corruption – One is based on a bonus when your minions die, the other on making your minions live & attack as much as possible. As well, one is damage oriented while the other is more control oriented.
I’m not sure how much conflict there is right now, but it’s something to keep in mind.

I can take a step back and concede that I understand why you wish you could go into Death Magic without taking the minion specific traits, and I appreciate your recognition of why it wouldn’t be fair to try to move those minor traits to major traits.

You say that thieves is more attuned to stealth because of their weapon skills. I would ignore the dagger/pistol combo as just that, a combo, not a stealth move. So thieves have one weapon choice that gives them stealth. To be facetious I could complain that the thieves have it worse, they are getting stealth forced on them in more places than the necro. The only reason that doesn’t fly is because no one has come up with a list of myths about why being stealthed is a bad thing.

The point is, you can be a thief without wanting stealth; it is one aspect of the class. In the same way you can be a necro without wanting minions; I understand that. However, in both cases sometimes you have that aspect of the class thrust upon you whether you want it or not, even if you would have preferred something more useful to what you are trying to accomplish with your build.

Any potential downsides of summoning a jagged horror when killing something need to be addressed as problems with the jagged horror, not as a reason to change the trait itself. The sooner necromancers start understanding that minions are a major (but not defining) characteristic of their class, the sooner they can work on maximizing their builds with the tools given to them.

The problem is not really that there are minion minor traits in death magic. The problem is that there is no synergy what so ever with the rest of the profession. I mean let’s take the jagged horror, WTH, that trait actually is good only if you get death nova, because apart from dying them don’t have any purpose, even in a minion build. That trait should be like :

5 : triggering a mark has 50% chance to spawn a jagged horror. (you can only control 5 jagged horrors at the same time). Any creature (enemy, ally, ranger’s pet and necromancer’s minions) dying near you spawns 1 jagged horror.

Jagged horror : upon dying , the owner of the horror get 3% life force.

Now a staff necro can benefit from minion traits without having a single minion skill. and the trait 15 will actually have some use for a staff necro.

By the way the parasitic bond in spite should get a rework too, something like the gw1 skill.

5 : each time one one of the poison, bleed or fear you apply ends (or is removed) you regain a small amount of life and 1% life force.

+1 for roughly anything that isn’t the current 2 traits in those spots. Particularly kittening Reanimator…

5: Necrotic Grasp steals endurance and bounces to an additional target.
15: Armor is Disease: 5% of toughness is converted to condition damage.
25: Reanimator: Summon a temporary minion when you use a Mark.

Daecollo.9578:

5: Necrotic Grasp steals endurance and bounces to an additional target.
15: Armor is Disease: 5% of toughness is converted to condition damage.
25: Reanimator: Summon a temporary minion when you use a Mark.

25 doesn’t work, too specific… like the current Reanimator but for other reasons.

How about this (all kinda based on other class traits):
5: Undead Conversion: Healing allies gives then 15 seconds of Protection (45 second cooldown – works on minions, only first tick of WoB, doesnt work on self)
15: Morbid Armor: 5% Condition Damage to Toughness
25: Unholy Vigor: Gain Vigor and Regeneration for 3 seconds upon removing a condition from yourself pre condition removed~

Edit: I actually forgot what Deadly Strength did so it would be a good replacement for any of em and name change for MA.

Andele.1306:

How about this (all kinda based on other class traits):
5: Undead Conversion: Healing allies gives then 15 seconds of Protection (45 second cooldown – works on minions, only first tick of WoB, doesnt work on self)
15: Morbidial Armor: 5% Condition Damage to Toughness
25: Unholy Vigor: Gain Vigor and Regeneration for 3 seconds upon removing a condition from yourself pre condition removed

For the love of god change the 15 one to Morbid Armor.
What the hell were you thinking with Morbidial?!?!?

PS- I really liked the suggestions.

5: deathly vigor: when you apply a condition you get the inverse boon for 5 seconds. (30 second cooldown)
This matches the well line’s condition/boon conversion and is useful to all necromancer builds since you can’t avoid applying conditions.

15: strength in death (the 5% toughness = power trait)
this is left as it is since condition damage only benefits necromancers who use damage conditions, while power benefits everyone. I moved it down the line to keep reanimator. (Not to mention the toughness = condition damage would make conditon necromancers even more “the best” than they already are. minion master’s need the boost not you)

25: reanimator: every time one of your minions die you gain a jagged horror (excluding jagged horrors)
The grandmaster major traits are both minion anyway so might as well go all the way with this one. Considering the fact that jagged horrors will die before all minions (except the bone minions) come off cooldown anyway, this will help make minion masters more consistent and their traits that boost minions as consistently beneficial as the traits of the other lines are.

(optional) combine protection of the horde with minion master. Protection of the horde synergizes with minion cooldown a lot as minion cooldown means you have the minions up more often meaning more toughness.

Protection of the horde is based off of the minion master rune you could use in GW1 that increased armor per minion, so I can see why the devs wanted to include it in this game.