Guild Wars 2

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well folks, perhaps there is some light at the end of this dark tunnel. Looks like they finally took notice. Now lets hope this leads to big changes.

JonPeters:

Many things that were discussed will see the light of day in some form in the future, even though the focus of these topics were about what is going to be seen for Dec 10th. Some big takeaways for the future. We want control builds and condition builds to have more of a place in high end PvE. We want all profession build diversity to continue to increase, which we will do through more trait and skill work. We want to continue to more clearly define the play styles of the professions. We want to make the combat in Guild Wars 2 better for every single person playing.

If they want to fix this issue then they really need to fix unshakeable. Having weakness and blind being pretty useless on bosses and some bosses being completely immune to cripple/chill/fear is hurting condition control. Condition builds can be fixed with slightly better scaling, which would make the optimized groups take 1 condi spec in most dungeons.

Staff could use improvement for group PvE play. Three stacks of bleed, plus regen, does not do much if a boss is being focused by the group and bleeds are at the cap. The regen should be more powerful to make up for four other players pushing each other’s bleed stacks off the boss. Strengthening the regen portion of MoB could also make up for the loss in dps for PvP when traiting Weakening Shroud if the heal worked while in DS.

I noticed Terror and Dhuumfire are both causing heartburn. Some of the old discussion threads where we debated different types of ways to strengthen the profession should have some good ideas in them. Fire was never part of the Necromancer’s core conditions so it does not synergize well. Perhaps replacing the trait with proc’ing a poison cloud on being hit rather than forcing players into a hybrid power/condi build would be better.

Terror depends upon Fear but the Fear skills are too short to be good for control, which is not what the Necromancer is about, anyway. Thus Fear became a dps skill. Consider reworking the whole Fear/Terror concept from the beginning. I would make it an automatic skill attached to the profession with it’s frequency, duration, and damage dependent upon the number of points put in Soul Reaping, Spite, and Curses. All of the little ways currently available to trait Fear are unnecessary. Make Terror an inherent job skill that improves automatically with point allocation; perhaps stack the skills on top of minor traits. That way you can adjust it without having to consider all the combinations of trait skills.

The Curses line has lots of choice. In some ways it is nice to put points there and know I can reconfigure out of combat without having to reset point allocation. Having a lot of really good skills packed into Curses can be convenient but I agree that Withering Precision is sub-par and could use a boost in effectiveness.

I also agree with your comment on moving Spectral Attunement lower. The spectral skills are still not as tightly integrated into Necromancer play style as I feel they ought to be. I suggest adding a passive or weapon-based spectral skill.

Toxic landing is kind of useless because Necromancer can already do poison fields. Thinking about spectral skills, maybe landing to spawn a spectral ghost to fight with as an ally would be better.

Death magic, as I have said since this time last year, is too packed with useful skills. Both staff buffs are often chosen and most of the rest are for MM. The minion skills should be combined. I would roll Minion Master into Protection of the Horde and Necromatic Corruption into Flesh of the Master. In their place, I would like to see a skill that increases Toughness based upon incoming dps and a skill that increases non-damaging condition duration.

Reanimator is still the wrong kind of skill. It requires I kill something for a chance at an extra bleed or two. It does nothing for PvE bosses without frequent adds or PvP. It only helps in open world PvE roaming where Necromancer does not need the help. Sure, it is somewhat useful as bait but that it is not necessary. If you replace it with a small buff to Torment duration or range, I would not mind at all.

Can’t… understand… these patches…

spoj.9672:

If they want to fix this issue then they really need to fix unshakeable. Having weakness and blind being pretty useless on bosses and some bosses being completely immune to cripple/chill/fear is hurting condition control. Condition builds can be fixed with slightly better scaling, which would make the optimized groups take 1 condi spec in most dungeons.

Actually, weakness is a lot of weaker on most bosses compared to chill, to which bosses are rarely immune to and the only ones that are "immune" are structures that have timer based attacks *like the giant green linguini of tentacle knockback and lazor grape or the oakheart in the latest TA patch since slowing it and/or the holos is kinda really really bad* People just dont take note of it because the boss doesnt turn blue and drop snowflakes. also noone really bothers with their attack timings but stacks up and hur-durps fights (or tries to and gets obliterated in spin2win, axe chain throws, lazors, whipping-it-good-or-bad, getting their snake gently touched by a giant snake,etc).

Woops I was thinking of cripple. Lupi is immune to cripple and the slow part of chill but atleast you can still get the dmg bonus from target the weak with chill. But yeah weakness and blind are useless against bosses. Weakness needs to be unnaffected by unshakeable imo. Also vuln duration is kittened on bosses but i dont mind that for balance reasons. Weakness is the main issue.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

For one, that nerf is only in PvP, where most necros don’t care.

Two, while we agree the nerf is pointless, it just doesn’t seem that big a deal; not when there are other things that are honestly a higher priority to change,

By pvp they mean spvp and wvw. If they only meant spvp they would have said so.

This nerf to Mark of Blood is going to hurt us a lot in wvw.

Personally I think to make Toxic Landing worth taking, it would have to be changed completely. How about:

Spectral Landing: Upon taking falling damage, the damage is reduced, and your lifeforce is refilled to max.

Ghostly Landing: Upon taking falling damage, you become transparent and gain a few seconds of invulnerability and retaliation.

Spectral Net: Upon taking falling damage, the damage is drastically reduced, and you leave a spectral net that reduces falling damage for any allies that land in it.

CHIPS.6018:

By pvp they mean spvp and wvw. If they only meant spvp they would have said so.

This nerf to Mark of Blood is going to hurt us a lot in wvw.

PvP = sPvP, they don’t call WvW PvP

Ok. I’ve been lurking on this long enough.

Change to Mark of Blood – Good. Nothing more to say here. It doesn’t hurt a well played condi Necro, but makes the build a little more challenging.

Removing ICD on Weakening Shroud – Good. 3s base Weakness would be better, because it only hits Melee targets that don’t dodge the blatantly obvious animation. If they don’t dodge, blind or block it, then it is their fault. They deserve to do bad damage. The high PBAoE weakness uptime fits the fact that necro has no mobility or disengage under any circumstance and the worst gap closing/opening abilities of any class in the game.

Siphoned Power – Is just bad. Like others have said it is too situational, too much risk, not enough reward. A Necro under 25% that pops shroud is going to get CC chained to death most of the time anyway. All this does is make condi’s tick harder before you die. Get rid of it. In fact, just slide Target the Weak into this position. Make a new minor for 25 curse that augments critical chance. Perhaps +2% Critical Chance per condition on opponents, or 10% critical v. opponents suffering from bleeding.

Dhuumfire – I don’t like passive on crits or on hits of this nature at all, and putting it on Life Blast doesn’t really solve that. Make it a proc that is a counter play or an enhancer.

-If you keep it in spite change the functionality to: Apply 1’s burn when you remove a Boon. (no ICD).

-If it goes to Curses GM (replacing Withering Precison) change to: Burn targets for 3s when you apply Immobilize (again no need for ICD because Immob is already on long CD’s).

RE: Death Tree – Reanimator and Protection of the Horde are so bad that they make the whole tree unviable. Find a way to combine them into Majors or delete them and put in something remotely valuable. Shrouded Removal would be good at the 5 pt minor and gain Vigor (5s) when you gain Regeneration would be good at the 15 pt. Alternatively, you could make the 15 pt minor gain Aegis or blind all nearby foes on Exiting Shroud (which would help a little to fix the locking of 6-10 when knocked out).

I know there hasn’t been much talk of it in this thread, but Blood Magic is still less than useful. Here’s what I’d do.
1)Move Bloodthirst to GM Level with new functionality:Life siphon is 50% more effective and functions while in Death Shroud
2) Delete Vampiric Rituals.
3) Add adept Major Trait – Consume Enchantments: When you remove a boon you gain Vigor for 5s

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Change to Mark of Blood – Good. Nothing more to say here. It doesn’t hurt a well played condi Necro, but makes the build a little more challenging.

You’re right in that it does absolutely nothing to hurt the potential of a condition necromancer. It does however hit hybrids hard. And this is exactly why this nerf is a poor one which should be revised. The oft complained about condition necromancer will still enjoy burning his victims down with impunity.

As a direct result of these misguided nerfs we’re pigeonholed into relying on Dhuumfire. This is how you kill build variety.

I know I may be late but I really Jon’s idea of Weakening Shroud where it procs each time we go into DS. MUCH better than a 25 cooldown, by 100 miles <3

p.s. Anet rocks

Fungalfoot.7213:

You’re right in that it does absolutely nothing to hurt the potential of a condition necromancer. It does however hit hybrids hard. And this is exactly why this nerf is a poor one which should be revised. The oft complained about condition necromancer will still enjoy burning his victims down with impunity.

As a direct result of these misguided nerfs we’re pigeonholed into relying on Dhuumfire. This is how you kill build variety.

I agree. Instead of dealing with the real problem, anet tries to nerf some more generic tools in a necromancer’s kitten nal. Staff #2 might look very powerful on paper but it has been there for a very long time and hasn’t caused any problems. If there are problems now, it’s not because of Mark of Blood or the like, it’s because of the current best way to combine the most powerful damaging aspects of the condition necro into one build. Nerfing the only range 1200 dual handed weapon of the necro doesn’t just nerf the problematic meta build. It will nerf everything.

Myrmidian Eudoros.4671:

Ok. I’ve been lurking on this long enough.

Dhuumfire – I don’t like passive on crits or on hits of this nature at all, and putting it on Life Blast doesn’t really solve that. Make it a proc that is a counter play or an enhancer.

-If you keep it in spite change the functionality to: Apply 1’s burn when you remove a Boon. (no ICD).

-If it goes to Curses GM (replacing Withering Precison) change to: Burn targets for 3s when you apply Immobilize (again no need for ICD because Immob is already on long CD’s).

2) Delete Vampiric Rituals.

These would be horrible changes. I agree that Dhuumfire should be changed in some way, but the traits you propose as a replacement would be way too situational and not at all worthy of Grandmaster traits. No one would go 30 points into a trait line for something that procs only on 1-2 skills of their build (we don’t have that much ways to immobilize) or are dependent on whether or not your opponent has boons on him. I also wouldn’t outright remove Vampiric Rituals. I like that trait, and I would gladly take it if the syphon wasn’t as weak as it currently is. The concept is great, just the implementation is lacking. I’m also not a fan of giving us Vigor. We are not supposed to dodge like crazy and it would be out of flavor for us to do so. I would appreciate more access to Aegis and Stability though, these are much more fitting for the way the necro is intended to be played.

I like the idea of having burning on DS1 TBH.

Theres a couple ways to implement it well imo. Either 100% chance life blast does 1s of burning no ICD. Grandmaster line.

Or 100% life blasts does 4s of burning 10s ICD, like the original dhuumfire days. This would make it so you wouldnt need to seperate the skills anymore.

Either way i think it should be both grandmaster in curses still. And by moving them to death shroud only procs you get way lower burning uptime, more control of the burning procs, and counterplay available to enemies.

I would gladly take nerfs if we ever got some healing in death shroud. I’d take 50% healing reduction while in shroud. Thatd be fantastic. Something about shroud not allowing heals not as effectively.

I still disagree with the Mark of blood changes. Thats the MAIN one I do not agree with on the changes. All other changes I am up for, just that change does not make sense to me. It just still nerfs other builds that dont use the dhuumfire/terror build reducing build diversity.

JonPeters.5630:

Even though we wont do it for Dec 10. I just wanted to throw out a wacky possible idea for Dhuumfire that we could discuss…

• Life Blast has a 100% chance to cause Burning on hit (2 seconds long). 6 seconds ICD.

Obviously the #s are ballpark and not necessarily final. The % chance, duration, and ICD are all subject to change.

Jon

Dont like it. Right now I can cover my conditions with burning no mater what way I play. This would force me to use LB. I’m pretty sure that this trait would be pretty useless. Depends on the actual numbers. But you would take away so much flexibility, that I cannot see any good in it…

The main problem is, you have to seperate WvW from pve too, in terms of making balances. For example single target weapons without bounce/aoe doesn’t mean anything to a wvw player, or minion builds… Minions can’t even live for seconds in wvw. We need alternative viable builds for both pvp, pve and wvw. We can’t be effective in wvw with single targeted pve or pvp builds. This is why nerfing other traits or abilities just for dhuumfire(a single target ability) is useless for wvw players. Most of wvw necros don’t even use dhuumfire for their builds. Then why punish non-dhuumfire users’ abilities ? You can use conditional/depending traits like “if used with dhuumfire you get 2 stacks instead of 3”. You can move greater marks back to adept trait with this trait dependency system which will make both dhuumfire users and non-dhuumfire(wvw) users happy.

Bhawb.7408:

CHIPS.6018:

By pvp they mean spvp and wvw. If they only meant spvp they would have said so.

This nerf to Mark of Blood is going to hurt us a lot in wvw.

PvP = sPvP, they don’t call WvW PvP

Even if what you say is true, its still a move in the wrong direction. They are still nerfing Mark of Blood because of Dhuumfire. Next up they will nerf something else because of Dhuumfire.

And it is clear that nerfing Mark of Blood for WvW is on their mind. And this might happen in the next patch.

I am not against all nerfs. But nerfs need to be justified. They need to make sense.

I posted in another thread about 3 issues regarding the balance of abilities and maybe it should have been posted here instead:
https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necromancer-s-only-defense/page/5#post3178733

Basically my points were:
1. Raw details on abilities themselves do not indicate how viable they are to fit into a build.

2. A lot of our abilities are heavily “gated” to the extent that they rarely meet their max potential. EG torment relies on Proc>DS>cd for DS>enough LF>LF used for defensive abilities>LF erosion over time<LF harder for condi builds<change traits affect condi build. Many are similar in terms of gating.

3. A lot of our abilities are “coralled” by resources, long CD, counters, cleanses, dodges, blocks, terrain etc. Add to that the opponent’s CC and we are borked like a lot of people are expressing.

I also raised an issue in a separate thread about the possible double counting of resources that is also relevant here. Primarily it asks the question about DS damage as a part of our damage balance yet being expected to use DS for defence thus diminishing damage potential.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/Necromancer-s-only-defense/page/5#post3178733

These ALL need to be considered together when looking at balance…not just the ability in isolation. It is why we seem so lame in real life (outside of the cookie cutter builds) but to the devs we look so good on paper.

oneinfinity.9406:

These would be horrible changes. I agree that Dhuumfire should be changed in some way, but the traits you propose as a replacement would be way too situational and not at all worthy of Grandmaster traits. No one would go 30 points into a trait line for something that procs only on 1-2 skills of their build (we don’t have that much ways to immobilize) or are dependent on whether or not your opponent has boons on him.

At a glance it may appear to be a nerf, but I think the relative strength of Necro in High End PvP would be unchanged by this, and that it would dramatically reduce the effectiveness of the low skill face rollers that cause all of the QQ. With the “on boon strip” that I described you could theoretically proc a 10s burn with corrupt boon if you land it on a boon-loaded target, Well of Corruption would become an AoE Burn proc, the trait Chill of Death would be much more potent in condition builds, Focus would edge closer to being a viable off-hand for a condi build and there would be other synergies for MM’s and axe wielders too. It would actually be a more controlled proc that would be about the same frequency.

Burn on Immob may seem bad at a glance too, but the synergy with Epidemic would be a monster.

I have chosen not to run Dhuumfire on my terrormancer more often than not because it is cheap and too passive. I absolutely would run the trait if one of these was adopted.

oneinfinity.9406:

I also wouldn’t outright remove Vampiric Rituals. I like that trait, and I would gladly take it if the syphon wasn’t as weak as it currently is.

Vampiric Rituals is pointless. Increased effectiveness of Vampiric and/or Vamp Precision procs from the proposed Bloodthirst improvement would actually be a more effective siphon, still synergize with wells and possibly make it not completely stupid to go 30 deep in blood. Not to mention that a GM like that specific to a single utility set is very limited in its ability to be effective.

oneinfinity.9406:

I’m also not a fan of giving us Vigor. We are not supposed to dodge like crazy and it would be out of flavor for us to do so. I would appreciate more access to Aegis and Stability though, these are much more fitting for the way the necro is intended to be played.

The combat system of this game values hard mitigation (dodges, blocks, invulns) far more than any other means to mitigate. Whether intended or not, necro can’t be balanced without access to an equivalent, and DS is not it.

It seems that many players really hate Dhuumfire.
I hear that it was nerfed from how it was initially introduced.
Can someone please explain it’s original state? Just curious.
I can’t find the answer, only how it is now.

Brett.4305:

Can someone please explain it’s original state?

Duration used to be 4 sec, now it’s 2 sec in sPvP and 4 sec in PvE/WvW.

Like flow said, it had its duration halved in sPvP only.

increase life siphoning so for every 500 healing power it gets increased by 50. might consider it over other traits then.

Hi, I did’nt read all the posts but i think with few changes not all their changes are necessary. Here’s my thoughts about (possible) changes.

Mark of Blood. Removed 1 bleed in PvP only: is 1 stack that important?

Spite 15 – Death into Life. Increased conversion from 5% to 7%: nice little buff, usefull

Spite X – Chill of Death. Increased trigger threshold from 25% to 50%: another good buff, even at 25% it’s good.

Curses IV – Weakening Shroud. Increase recharge from 15 to 25: same cd as weakening shroud so i don’t mind.

Curses VIII – Banshee’s Wail. Increase cooldown reduction from 15% to 20%: isn’t already 20%?

Death 5 – Reanimator. Decreased cooldown from 30s to 15s: why don’t you just make the trait create a bone minion and until he’s dead the trait can’t proc again? no cd no problems.(he can regen ooc but can’t explose like others)

Death VIII – Reaper’s Protection. Decreased the cooldown from 90s to 60s: look nice especially in WvW, i will try it.

Death 25 – Deadly Strength. Increased conversion from 5% to 10%: another good buff in death.

Blood Magic 25 – Blood to Power. Decreased health threshold from 90% to 75%. Increase Power from 90 to 120: another buff the treshold is very nice but is 120 power worth it? Maybe.(signet of spite is 180)

Soul Reaping II. Vital Persistence. Increased reduction of life force drain from 25% to 50%: Ppl with ds build will like this one, a very huge buff that might be op, let’s see.

‘’We brought down some of the raw DPS conditions that necromancer enjoys, while also maintaining their pressure and sustain elements.’’

So for now there’s more buffs than nerfs even if they lower the condition damage dps. Some changes create more potential problems than just balancing what we have now. I have some ideas to increase sustains, it need work off course but maybe it worth taking a look?(it’s not a wishlist):

If we need more sustain why not make Ds Life transfer heal health bar and not life force?
Maybe putting together Dagger mastery+ Quickening thirst in the same (grand)master trait?(who take both?)
I think wail of doom(#4 warhorn) should fear, not daze.
Maybe rending claws from the axe can be a mêlee weapon (range 130) and cleave?
And finally what about scaling healing power with life stealing properly?

I hope to not be treated like a fool. It’s just personal thing i think might help the necro to be balanced.

Death 5 – Reanimator. Decreased cooldown from 30s to 15s

Because you couldn’t have your risen rat fast enough.
I wouldn’t miss it.
Would anybody miss it?

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

Can’t… understand… these patches…

Weakening Shroud Now Applies 2 seconds of weakness…

Unreal.

It is almost like they just want one build for necros and it MUST have Dumbfire in it…. Unreal.

Andele.1306:

Distaste.4801:

They don’t want healing to be powerful, that is why most healing skills in the game scale horribly. That’s actually one of the biggest problems with class balance in this game is that they are so afraid of healing and mitigation being powerful alternatives. You should be able to build a 75% mitigation build that takes huge hits and still keeps on ticking. Healing should be powerful and thus make poison a real counter. The whole class/balance system is a complete mess from start to finish. Given a day to revamp the game I’d make all armor available to each class with certain tradeoffs for each one. Make the base health the same for every class. Then make armor/toughness mitigate more, healing power scaling to match power, and % crit and % crit damage nerfed down to reasonable levels.

You mean thats why every dedicated heal is at a 1:1 ratio, heals on aa have a 0.2 ratio (which if i may add is a lot for on auto attacks), why our dear Transfusion and the following: Geyser, Water Trident, Empower, Cleansing Wave, Shadow Refuge, Super Elixir are all over a 0.8: ratio (DK DC about other professions traits tbf).
Yeah no heals scale just as well as just power does, the only broken scaling in game is crit to crit damage since they had the wonderful idea that it should be additive.

You do realize that a lot of attacks are at a 1.0 ratio or higher right(100b is 4.4, Necro dagger #2 is 2.2)? You mention the auto-attack having a .2 ratio but neglect that most attacks power scaling is .3 or greater, with the vast majority being greater. Even at the base level healing power doesn’t scale nearly as well, if it did you should be seeing equal values, instead the dedicated heal is at a 1.0 and on a 15-20s cooldown where weapon skills with much lower cooldowns can have 1.2 or greater scaling before even including modifiers.

Heals cannot be modified by any other means besides healing power, at least that I know of. Power gains use of % damage increases, certain conditions stack, both gain a bonus from might, and then there is crit, crit damage, and condition duration. Regen doesn’t stack except duration so it will never compete with bleeds even though it scales better (.05 vs .125), it scales slightly better than poison(.1 vs .125) but when you account for the 33% heal reduction it’s worse, lastly it doesn’t have the scaling of burning (.125 vs .25) so it can’t compete there.

If healing power doesn’t scale as well as power at the base level and doesn’t have modifiers how does it scale well again? Yes there are a few, emphasis on the few, skills that scale decently but that’s also why I said “most” don’t scale well. On the whole there are a ton more damage skills that scale better to power or inflict more conditions than the few decent heals can heal.

Read u can still post in prof. sub-threads about this.

Just the usual “please do something with dhuumfire and dont hurt other stuff.”

And could currupt boon change priority for stability nr.5 ? so u could currupt it, but not steal with focus too easy.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Well folks, perhaps there is some light at the end of this dark tunnel. Looks like they finally took notice. Now lets hope this leads to big changes.

JonPeters:

Many things that were discussed will see the light of day in some form in the future, even though the focus of these topics were about what is going to be seen for Dec 10th. Some big takeaways for the future. We want control builds and condition builds to have more of a place in high end PvE. We want all profession build diversity to continue to increase, which we will do through more trait and skill work. We want to continue to more clearly define the play styles of the professions. We want to make the combat in Guild Wars 2 better for every single person playing.

I’m unsure what he means by “high end” PVE. What part if PVE is “high end”? Does this means Fractals? Open-world champion zergs? Weapons racks?

But the overall gist is heartening.

I can’t see conditions working without doing something about the cap.

Whatever they do, it needs to get to a point where people with condition- builds have no concerns that their conditions won’t be overridden by other people’s ones (both from a dps perspective, and a “we can’t bring more than one conditions build” perspective).

Distaste.4801:

Andele.1306:

Distaste.4801:

They don’t want healing to be powerful, that is why most healing skills in the game scale horribly. That’s actually one of the biggest problems with class balance in this game is that they are so afraid of healing and mitigation being powerful alternatives. You should be able to build a 75% mitigation build that takes huge hits and still keeps on ticking. Healing should be powerful and thus make poison a real counter. The whole class/balance system is a complete mess from start to finish. Given a day to revamp the game I’d make all armor available to each class with certain tradeoffs for each one. Make the base health the same for every class. Then make armor/toughness mitigate more, healing power scaling to match power, and % crit and % crit damage nerfed down to reasonable levels.

You mean thats why every dedicated heal is at a 1:1 ratio, heals on aa have a 0.2 ratio (which if i may add is a lot for on auto attacks), why our dear Transfusion and the following: Geyser, Water Trident, Empower, Cleansing Wave, Shadow Refuge, Super Elixir are all over a 0.8: ratio (DK DC about other professions traits tbf).
Yeah no heals scale just as well as just power does, the only broken scaling in game is crit to crit damage since they had the wonderful idea that it should be additive.

You do realize that a lot of attacks are at a 1.0 ratio or higher right(100b is 4.4, Necro dagger #2 is 2.2)? You mention the auto-attack having a .2 ratio but neglect that most attacks power scaling is .3 or greater, with the vast majority being greater. Even at the base level healing power doesn’t scale nearly as well, if it did you should be seeing equal values, instead the dedicated heal is at a 1.0 and on a 15-20s cooldown where weapon skills with much lower cooldowns can have 1.2 or greater scaling before even including modifiers.

Heals cannot be modified by any other means besides healing power, at least that I know of. Power gains use of % damage increases, certain conditions stack, both gain a bonus from might, and then there is crit, crit damage, and condition duration. Regen doesn’t stack except duration so it will never compete with bleeds even though it scales better (.05 vs .125), it scales slightly better than poison(.1 vs .125) but when you account for the 33% heal reduction it’s worse, lastly it doesn’t have the scaling of burning (.125 vs .25) so it can’t compete there.

If healing power doesn’t scale as well as power at the base level and doesn’t have modifiers how does it scale well again? Yes there are a few, emphasis on the few, skills that scale decently but that’s also why I said “most” don’t scale well. On the whole there are a ton more damage skills that scale better to power or inflict more conditions than the few decent heals can heal.

Because you can totally compare power which gets reduced by armor to healing power which gets boosted by armor… right (seriously please dont post random kitten with no worth, also Dagger 2 on necro is 2.7 power, yay for people on the wiki not writing decimals btw, and 0.3 healing power scaling didnt test since bloodthirst changes but it was that while Warrior GS is 5.5 since its melee, right?)

TheAgedGnome.7520:

I’m unsure what he means by “high end” PVE. What part if PVE is “high end”? Does this means Fractals? Open-world champion zergs? Weapons racks?

But the overall gist is heartening.

I would assume Fractals, Dungeons and maybe champions in the open world (Temple of Grenth for example). I also hope this includes world bosses, like Tequatl. Because unlike most other bosses, the issue with Tequatl is not about the condition cap, but about him being considered a structure.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

TheAgedGnome.7520:

I’m unsure what he means by “high end” PVE. What part if PVE is “high end”? Does this means Fractals? Open-world champion zergs? Weapons racks?

But the overall gist is heartening.

I would assume Fractals, Dungeons and maybe champions in the open world (Temple of Grenth for example). I also hope this includes world bosses, like Tequatl. Because unlike most other bosses, the issue with Tequatl is not about the condition cap, but about him being considered a structure.

Actually its quite awesome that he is a structure/object and not just a npc. If he were mesmers would do the same what you could do with SB and Jorlag p2 in the first month or so and instagib him with his own skills, since we kinda know that devs wouldnt fix it till its too late.

After thinking some days about those Terror and Dhuumfire changes you think about I can only say, please think twice and dont nerf what’s just good.
Dhuumfire is maybe a little bit powerful, but shouldn’t the necromancer be the powerfullest condition class? Maybe there is a better way, but please make it as flexible that it can be played with every play style or build, not just proc by LB. If you do it by LB, I’m pretty sure that this trait will be ignored by most players.
When it comes to Terror, I think it’s perfect. Compared to other classes we have no get away abilities and have a low sustain. So Terror fits in perfectly, because if played right you can keep your enemies on distance while dealing also some damage. I’m no pvp player and I understand that for pvp this all can be very very powerful, maybe overpowered. But when I think from a wvw perspective I feel like I have finally a well playable class that can risk a fight with any other classes. As already said, we cannot make us invisible, invincible or easily get away and whatever sustain there is. If I enter a fight I win or die. For wvw a current state terror build is a and is from my pov the only viable romaing build. And I’m happy to finally have one, so please don’t nerf it into ground.
I also think there are so many people crying, because a terror necromancer is a class you need to think about if and how you want to attack him. It is not enough to just spam heart seeker. In most fights my opponent is capable of getting away from me, so is it my fault if the enemie dies because he did not used his class advantage?
You once said that balance decisions are made for pvp and wvw does not really count. I think this is a huge mistake, given the fact that wvw seems to attract more player than pvp?

cubed.2853:

In most fights my opponent is capable of getting away from me, so is it my fault if the enemie dies because he did not used his class advantage?

I’m really tired of people running away tbh. If Anet is trying to take down our burst, then they better do something about making true their claims about Necro being a hard class to escape from. Right now we aren’t even close to that and the condi burst is the only small hope to bring them down before the run.

Today a warrior ran away from me about 5 times in WvW, and tried to reengage with stun chain combo each time, he finally either got tired of the yo-yo game or made a mistake, because I finally took him down with a good corrupt and signet combo, but still its absolutely ridiculous how everyone else gets to pick their fights with us, try over and over, then just run away when they screw up. If we screw up one time, we are dead, there is no escaping, short of a cliff being around with Spectral Walk up.

Pendragon.8735:

cubed.2853:

In most fights my opponent is capable of getting away from me, so is it my fault if the enemie dies because he did not used his class advantage?

I’m really tired of people running away tbh. If Anet is trying to take down our burst, then they better do something about making true their claims about Necro being a hard class to escape from. Right now we aren’t even close to that and the condi burst is the only small hope to bring them down before the run.

Today a warrior ran away from me about 5 times in WvW, and tried to reengage with stun chain combo each time, he finally either got tired of the yo-yo game or made a mistake, because I finally took him down with a good corrupt and signet combo, but still its absolutely ridiculous how everyone else gets to pick their fights with us, try over and over, then just run away when they screw up. If we screw up one time, we are dead, there is no escaping, short of a cliff being around with Spectral Walk up.

Warrior mobility is way over the top. I feel sorry for warriors in certain circumstances where they need help, but their sustain and mobility is far too high to support having the highest defense and vitality.

There is no amount of buffing they can make that will allow us to keep warriors in a fight against us if they want to leave. With the freebie stability proc on interrupt/fear, stability on shouts, blocks…. you are not keeping them stationary.

While I don’t mind thieves getting away as that is their class MO, warriors are completely pointless to even fight if they are running Greatsword and don’t want to fight. I would imagine they will see the same treatment RTL eles got eventually.

Pendragon.8735:

I’m really tired of people running away tbh. If Anet is trying to take down our burst, then they better do something about making true their claims about Necro being a hard class to escape from. Right now we aren’t even close to that and the condi burst is the only small hope to bring them down before the run.

That’s exactly my point, tried to find the dev post about that… Currently (and I dont see this changing) most classes can easily escape, if they want to, but the necro cannot. So the only way to make necros viable is to make them a hard target. As terror necro I currently just wait for my enemy to come. If he run/hide and dont want to fight I dont care. If a enemy know how to play his class it’s nearly impossible to stop him from getting away. We have indeed a lot of tools to stop or slow down an enemy, but it’s not that other classes don’t have them or can avoid them. Maybe with a special build, but whats the sense of making such a build if I cannot deal or take enough damage then.

I’m really happy for the reanimator buff. Still useless in PvP, but I guess there’s no helping that.

JonPeters.5630:

AN UPDATE
Weakening Shroud. This trait now does a smaller version of Enfeebling Blood when entering Death Shroud. Bleeding (1 stack only; 6 seconds [10s with full condition duration spec]). Weakness (2s [3s with full condition duration spec]). No ICD.

Obviously this is a very big change so please discuss, and keep your discussion constructive, so that we can actually talk through the merits/downsides.

Jon

For me you should replace “weakness” with “Blindness”, 2s seems pretty low for something that has only 50% chance to work

Blinding Shroud- Blinds nearby foes when leaving Death Shroud

pierwola.9602:

JonPeters.5630:

AN UPDATE
Weakening Shroud. This trait now does a smaller version of Enfeebling Blood when entering Death Shroud. Bleeding (1 stack only; 6 seconds [10s with full condition duration spec]). Weakness (2s [3s with full condition duration spec]). No ICD.

Obviously this is a very big change so please discuss, and keep your discussion constructive, so that we can actually talk through the merits/downsides.

Jon

For me you should replace “weakness” with “Blindness”, 2s seems pretty low for something that has only 50% chance to work

But there is a 100% chance that zerker thief is going to go to down on my butt. So I will take the 25% reduction on his next 5ish attacks in that 2 seconds over causing just one miss.

Rennoko.5731:

pierwola.9602:

JonPeters.5630:

AN UPDATE
Weakening Shroud. This trait now does a smaller version of Enfeebling Blood when entering Death Shroud. Bleeding (1 stack only; 6 seconds [10s with full condition duration spec]). Weakness (2s [3s with full condition duration spec]). No ICD.

Obviously this is a very big change so please discuss, and keep your discussion constructive, so that we can actually talk through the merits/downsides.

Jon

For me you should replace “weakness” with “Blindness”, 2s seems pretty low for something that has only 50% chance to work

But there is a 100% chance that zerker thief is going to go to down on my butt. So I will take the 25% reduction on his next 5ish attacks in that 2 seconds over causing just one miss.

Its only 5% difference in reduction(on paper) and blindness is way more useful

pierwola.9602:

Rennoko.5731:

pierwola.9602:

JonPeters.5630:

AN UPDATE
Weakening Shroud. This trait now does a smaller version of Enfeebling Blood when entering Death Shroud. Bleeding (1 stack only; 6 seconds [10s with full condition duration spec]). Weakness (2s [3s with full condition duration spec]). No ICD.

Obviously this is a very big change so please discuss, and keep your discussion constructive, so that we can actually talk through the merits/downsides.

Jon

For me you should replace “weakness” with “Blindness”, 2s seems pretty low for something that has only 50% chance to work

But there is a 100% chance that zerker thief is going to go to down on my butt. So I will take the 25% reduction on his next 5ish attacks in that 2 seconds over causing just one miss.

Its only 5% difference in reduction(on paper) and blindness is way more useful

That hasn’t been true since weakness was buffed a few months ago. Weakness is a 25% reduction in DPS.

Roe.3679:

That hasn’t been true since weakness was buffed a few months ago. Weakness is a 25% reduction in DPS.

I mean difference between weakness and blind,
1miss on 5 attacks give you 20%

pierwola.9602:

Roe.3679:

That hasn’t been true since weakness was buffed a few months ago. Weakness is a 25% reduction in DPS.

I mean difference between weakness and blind,
1miss on 5 attacks give you 20%

On the same attacks, sure. But you can blind an AA and get hit with a huge attack. Plus weakness reduced endurance recharge.

Random blind procs are praying to the RNG gods to save you. You might get lucky and blind him right before he backstabs, or you might blind an AA. But weakness is a guaranteed overall reduction in damage.

Also, weakness has much less counterplay. If you’re facing a smart player and they get blinded, they will use an AA to clear the blind before going for their real attack. You can’t just “wipe” weakness like that, except by cleansing.

it should be mentioned weakness does nothing to stop the CC train, which is one of the main problems when the enemy decides to play pongmancer with us.

It would be best imo if the bleed was just removed at this point and replaced with blind/weakness combo instead of bleed/weakness combo.

Dredlord.8076:

it should be mentioned weakness does nothing to stop the CC train, which is one of the main problems when the enemy decides to play pongmancer with us.

It would be best imo if the bleed was just removed at this point and replaced with blind/weakness combo instead of bleed/weakness combo.

First constructive thing I’ve seen you say, and I have to say that I agree with you. I wouldn’t miss the bleeds at all if Weakening Shroud became a skillful anti-burst/chain trait. The one downside I see is the delay on entering death shroud and when Weakening Shroud actually goes off. The blind may very well come too late.

My minion master is actually getting a boost =D I’m okay with this. >.>

WereDragon.6083:

My minion master is actually getting a boost =D I’m okay with this. >.>

Like saying “They’re giving me moneys, just 1 cent, but I’m ok with it”

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Dredlord.8076:

it should be mentioned weakness does nothing to stop the CC train, which is one of the main problems when the enemy decides to play pongmancer with us.

It would be best imo if the bleed was just removed at this point and replaced with blind/weakness combo instead of bleed/weakness combo.

First constructive thing I’ve seen you say, and I have to say that I agree with you. I wouldn’t miss the bleeds at all if Weakening Shroud became a skillful anti-burst/chain trait. The one downside I see is the delay on entering death shroud and when Weakening Shroud actually goes off. The blind may very well come too late.

Agreed. They need to divest themselves completely from the former connection between Weakening Shroud and Enfeebling Blood. Throw it out the window, forget about it, pretend it never existed.

This trait – whether it retains its former name or is given a new one – would then stand on its own. As such, it would no longer have to be balanced or constrained by the skill, Enfeebling Blood.

Then, to address your valid concern over the delay in the processing of Weakening Shroud, simply make it insta-cast. “But, but, but…Enfeebling Blood has a cast time. We can’t remove a cast time from Weakening Shroud!” Sure you can; remember what I said at the beginning? Sever the connection between the two and stop trying to balance one around the other. They would now exist as two completely separate things.

I like the blind/weakness combo suggestion, too. Wha-d-ya think; three seconds duration for each sound about right?