Guild Wars 2

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/pvp/pvp/Constructive-necromancer-thoughts/page/8#post2495320

At least they had the wisdom to split it.

It’s a bandaid. I imagine next week they’ll nerf it for real. Given the discussions in that thread, they’ll probably change it to Torment instead of Burn (which I’m cool with btw).

Yeah, I still don’t like it at all. Now they’re going to nerf it and the meta will go back to the way it was. Necromancers will be worst off than before we got buffed thanks to the last patch changes. Can’t wait for all those people who whinned about necromancers being “op” to go back to telling other people to l2p when someone says their class is op.

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

Zikory.6871:

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

Depends how many stacks, really. 5 stacks, I would say yes. 2? Not so much.

Zikory.6871:

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

I question its worth with burn to be honest. It’s a grandmaster talent in a power line afterall. Depending on the number of stacks, it could be of value as a replacement. If it has 3 stacks of torment for example it does nearly the same damage as burn if the target is moving.

I’m more concerned with what ANet decides is the problem. It would appear they have problem with terror builds. I could see them nerfing dhuumfire AND changing master of tower to a grandmaster trait.

Atherakhia.4086:

Zikory.6871:

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

I question its worth with burn to be honest. It’s a grandmaster talent in a power line afterall. Depending on the number of stacks, it could be of value as a replacement. If it has 3 stacks of torment for example it does nearly the same damage as burn if the target is moving.

I’m more concerned with what ANet decides is the problem. It would appear they have problem with terror builds. I could see them nerfing dhuumfire AND changing master of tower to a grandmaster trait.

Sure… then we can all play elementalist
No fear and no burning, we would be so much worse then before… and before we were bad. If they do that you could literally not kill anyone…

I know I am beating a dead horse on this one but Nemesis, what about the idea of changing dhuumfire’s burning to chilled?

It would help lock people down in pvp and wvw. It would also serve as defense due to increased skill cooldown. In pve, it would be underpowered with just chilled so maybe something like “100% chance to cause chilled for 4 seconds on critical hit and remove 3 stacks of defiant. 10 second cooldown”

Sepreh.5924:

I know I am beating a dead horse on this one but Nemesis, what about the idea of changing dhuumfire’s burning to chilled?

It would help lock people down in pvp and wvw. It would also serve as defense due to increased skill cooldown. In pve, it would be underpowered with just chilled so maybe something like “100% chance to cause chilled for 4 seconds on critical hit and remove 3 stacks of defiant. 10 second cooldown”

I already said it should be moved into Curses grandmaster, and whitering precision should be moved to Spite grandmaster and mixed with chilling.
Also terror should be moved into Curses grandmaster as well so you can’t have terror + burning, lingering curse should be moved in adept and hemofilia and master of corruption should be made into one.

You have room for 1 more trait… power builds become viable, condition builds become less damage dealing and more survivable since you don’t have to waste traits in power anymore… win win.

No one listens to me

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zikory.6871:

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

Depends how many stacks, really. 5 stacks, I would say yes. 2? Not so much.

There must have been at least 10 threads advocating torment as a replacement for burning.

In a full condition build torment on a moving target will do about 25% damage of burning. So if duration and proc chance are the same then either 2 or 3 stacks are appropriate.

flow.6043:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Zikory.6871:

But with torment do you think it would be worthy of being a Grandmaster trait?

Depends how many stacks, really. 5 stacks, I would say yes. 2? Not so much.

There must have been at least 10 threads advocating torment as a replacement for burning.

In a full condition build torment on a moving target will do about 25% damage of burning. So if duration and proc chance are the same then either 2 or 3 stacks are appropriate.

A good chunk of the issue with Burning was that it was yet another condition to cleanse. A “condition burst” from a necro right now already includes Torment, so even keeping it at 4 stacks for approximately the same damage would still tone down the current issues with necro condi burst in the difficulty of negating it. 3 stacks is probably ideal. 2 stacks, probably too weak.

Necromancers shouldn’t be given a damaging condition incentive to go into the spite line, it’s too strong with condition duration especially with fear with the current trait setup.

even though condiburstwtf necro is undeniably ridiculous it’s not only class doing similar kind of condition stacks, it’s just not many use that option or are considerably weaker otherwise. one more condition here and there no problem but burn does a lot of dmg just look at those warriors with bow that burn alone hurts tbh.

I barely play necro, but was happy to see the conditionmancer emerge as a counter to bunker guardians. I hope they don’t nerf you guys too hard, it’s so boring seeing a bunker guardian on every team and without a strong necro I don’t see any other class posing much of a threat to the same old meta.

Pretty sure nothing changed?

It seems almost the same after this patch, maybe they reduced the duration by a smige.

Edit: “Dhuumfire: In competitive PvP only, burning duration caused by this trait has been reduced from 4 seconds to 2 seconds. Burning duration is still 4 seconds in other areas of the game.”

I’m happy with the nerf.

They should now move it from the spite line to the curses grandmaster and switch the weakness on crit grandmaster trait on curses for it.

Not that any grandmaster trait in spite will ever compete with 20% extra damage to targets below 50% for power specs. It’s just too good to pass up.

Thing that scares me is they’ll add on to this nerf. I suspect a larger ICD or no longer 100% chance to proc.

If it gets nerfed too much, it should be a 10 point tier, not grandmaster.

So correct me if i’m wrong. As it is, 30% Conduration will give 2.6 seconds of burning with 2 ticks of burning. PvE is 5.2 with 5 ticks. So a 60% nerf to the amount of burning damage within 10 seconds. To get 3 ticks requires 50% Conduration, making it only a 40% nerf.

2 seconds is not worthy of a grandmaster trait. 3 seconds is the correct duration. This needs to be moved to the Master tier.

Since it’s part of a power line, it should probably apply vulnerability, cripple or chill. Also, move Terror to Grandmaster, disable spectral skills in DS (it’s supposed to do this, right?) and rework DS #5 to convert a certain amount of lifeforce to HP (channel?). Tadaa, here you have your sustain.

On a related note, i would change necro scepter autoattack and thief dagger autoattack (any other i missed?) to not be able to get permanent uptime on poison. The condition is too strong to be so easily accesible and instead should be timed to counter heals.

They still haven’t fixed our completely missing defense, and they haven’t fixed our DPS. I could care less about Dhuumfire, I didn’t use it anyway.

This update did not make me happy one bit. I can see yet another pvp-only based nerf on the horizon, and our class will become virtually unplayable in PVE. They are listening to the wrong players for these balances.

A combination of Dhuumfire w/60% reduction + Terror w/17% reduction will either finally prove that the original Dhuumfire+Terror was indeed OP or that the alleged
OP-ness of necros is utterly erroneous or lies elsewhere.

To make per second Torment damage equivalent to Burning damage the number of stacks (S) required for a given condition damage ( C) is:
S=(.25*C+328)/(.0375*C+31.875)
At 1600 condition damage S=7.9
If a target is moving (thereby taking twice the Torment damage), then S=7.9/2= 3.95

So Drarnor Kunoram’s suggestion of 5 stacks makes sense to me.

But wouldn’t a change from Dhuumfire to Torment would be quite different from Tainted Shackles (600 range) since it would presumably inherit the range of the weapon used? Would the complaining be any less if one necro could proc Torment at 900 or 1200 range using Staff1, DS1 or Scepter and thereby induce the enemy to stop moving to reduce damage? Or maybe that is what is needed?

Iavra.8510:

Since it’s part of a power line, it should probably apply vulnerability, cripple or chill. Also, move Terror to Grandmaster, disable spectral skills in DS (it’s supposed to do this, right?) and rework DS #5 to convert a certain amount of lifeforce to HP (channel?). Tadaa, here you have your sustain.

On a related note, i would change necro scepter autoattack and thief dagger autoattack (any other i missed?) to not be able to get permanent uptime on poison. The condition is too strong to be so easily accesible and instead should be timed to counter heals.

You know nothing, Lavra Snow. On a related note, they should increase revealed to 10 seconds and cut engineer condition duration by 50%. Tadaa, you have balance.

Iavra.8510:

….disable spectral skills in DS (it’s supposed to do this, right?)….

They purposely changed Spectral skills to work in DS, the tooltips have not been changed yet.

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-25th-2013/first#post2280967

Tobbygnome.6793:

Iavra.8510:

….disable spectral skills in DS (it’s supposed to do this, right?)….

They purposely changed Spectral skills to work in DS, the tooltips have not been changed yet.

See: https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/info/updates/Game-Update-Notes-June-25th-2013/first#post2280967

I can confirm they do work

The change kind of annoys me, because it just feels like at this point they’re edging closer to removing Dhuumfire without just removing it already.

Maybe they’re tryna band-aid stuff before the PAX tourney, then later on might think about proper balancing.

engineers have exsctly the same trait in the adept tier of explosives, yet now the grandmaster necro version is getting nerfed. wtf? my engi is my main char but my necro is close to my heart, having played mainly as a necro in gw1, and seeing the necro being treated this way is painful.

DrMatt.9408:

engineers have exsctly the same trait in the adept tier of explosives, yet now the grandmaster necro version is getting nerfed. wtf?

Ya i don’t even know

Can i ask to return the DS absorbtion effect and old spectral ratios on no internal cd now with dhuumfire nerf?

Nemesis.8593:

Sepreh.5924:

I know I am beating a dead horse on this one but Nemesis, what about the idea of changing dhuumfire’s burning to chilled?

It would help lock people down in pvp and wvw. It would also serve as defense due to increased skill cooldown. In pve, it would be underpowered with just chilled so maybe something like “100% chance to cause chilled for 4 seconds on critical hit and remove 3 stacks of defiant. 10 second cooldown”

I already said it should be moved into Curses grandmaster, and whitering precision should be moved to Spite grandmaster and mixed with chilling.
Also terror should be moved into Curses grandmaster as well so you can’t have terror + burning, lingering curse should be moved in adept and hemofilia and master of corruption should be made into one.

You have room for 1 more trait… power builds become viable, condition builds become less damage dealing and more survivable since you don’t have to waste traits in power anymore… win win.

No one listens to me

Haha why don’t we listen to you? Amazing idea and seems to take care of both necros and non necros in pve and pvp

I don’t understand how we keep getting nerfed but eng and spirit rangers are fine?

Stop comparing to Engis. We are absolutely different classes. The problem isn’t Dhuumfire alone, it always has been dhuumfire + fears + huge condi output.

Bhawb.7408:

Stop comparing to Engis. We are absolutely different classes. The problem isn’t Dhuumfire alone, it always has been dhuumfire + fears + huge condi output.

explain the huge condition output please, i want to build that class,

5 seconds of burning, (outside Spvp) with bleed (stacking slow as hell) and a little bit of poison, and fear each 12 seconds at best case,

Spectral wall and corrupt boon, both with high cooldowns, spectral wall is way too easy to avoid and corrupt boon does not assure that you will apply fear,

Now you have zero stun breakers, (if you equip epidemic), you have almost zero LF regeneration, you loose 100 condition damage, and your staff now is much less reliable,

And you got 1 major trait and three minor traits completly useless on spite, (and chill of death is not that good),

On top of LF overflow, no blocks, no protection, no vigor and no stability and being the first target in all fights I would not say that your condition output is that high, in fact is pretty close to zero,

The trait should just be replaced. Necros burning people was weird anyway. With where the trait is its almost like they are forcing you to be a hybrid build too.

Dhuumfire’s current state is clearly to deter PAX participants from taking it. Even as an adept tier I wouldnt take it because it needs precision to apply measly damage and a crappy conditions blanket: not worth it, IMHO.

So, I guess we’re back to the pre june 25th patch with a 0/30/20/0/20 with carrion amulet, except that now:
- we don’t have Sigil of Paralyzation anymore
- Terror deals 17% less damage
- we (roughly) traded marks unblockability and size for 20% reduced CDs
- we now have intended DS survivability (still melted by conditions)

Wait… Did I give up a 2 sec Dhuumfire a bit too quickly ? =_= (Dhuum sure is cruel and unjust…)

Doing that 2 days before the begining of a big tournament makes me very very sad…

Sepreh.5924:

Nemesis.8593:

Sepreh.5924:

I know I am beating a dead horse on this one but Nemesis, what about the idea of changing dhuumfire’s burning to chilled?

It would help lock people down in pvp and wvw. It would also serve as defense due to increased skill cooldown. In pve, it would be underpowered with just chilled so maybe something like “100% chance to cause chilled for 4 seconds on critical hit and remove 3 stacks of defiant. 10 second cooldown”

I already said it should be moved into Curses grandmaster, and whitering precision should be moved to Spite grandmaster and mixed with chilling.
Also terror should be moved into Curses grandmaster as well so you can’t have terror + burning, lingering curse should be moved in adept and hemofilia and master of corruption should be made into one.

You have room for 1 more trait… power builds become viable, condition builds become less damage dealing and more survivable since you don’t have to waste traits in power anymore… win win.

No one listens to me

Haha why don’t we listen to you? Amazing idea and seems to take care of both necros and non necros in pve and pvp

I KNOW !… so… OBEY ME !

… and of course since you won’t be able to get terror and burning at the same time, burning duration has to be increase, and terror damage has to be either reversed to original state or increased even more… so now you have the option of playing… bleeds + burning which is constant high pressure OR bleeds + terror which is smaller pressure + burst. But terror damage needs to be increased, since it won’t stack with burning…

Engels.8537:

Bhawb.7408:

Stop comparing to Engis. We are absolutely different classes. The problem isn’t Dhuumfire alone, it always has been dhuumfire + fears + huge condi output.

explain the huge condition output please, i want to build that class,

5 seconds of burning, (outside Spvp) with bleed (stacking slow as hell) and a little bit of poison, and fear each 12 seconds at best case,

Spectral wall and corrupt boon, both with high cooldowns, spectral wall is way too easy to avoid and corrupt boon does not assure that you will apply fear,

Now you have zero stun breakers, (if you equip epidemic), you have almost zero LF regeneration, you loose 100 condition damage, and your staff now is much less reliable,

And you got 1 major trait and three minor traits completly useless on spite, (and chill of death is not that good),

On top of LF overflow, no blocks, no protection, no vigor and no stability and being the first target in all fights I would not say that your condition output is that high, in fact is pretty close to zero,

The trick is, a necromancer can also be throwing chill, cripple and weakness in there simultaneously to make it harder to cleanse the correct conditions. Don’t ignore the value of this! A skill that cleanses two conditions goes from saving one’s life (if all that’s there is the 23 bleeds & one other condition) to possibly pointless. (five conditions and you just want that bleed stack gone now) Plus, previously the damage from Terror could make up for not having any access to burning, even before considering how it disabled your opponent. The nerfs to Terror & Dhuumfire may have resolved this, but it feels like zero progress was made overall.

And frankly? I can’t really agree with the “The Terror Dhuumfire Build was too vulnerable” argument seeing how PvP basically worked itself into an unholy frenzy over its capabilities.

Nerf is not needed just remove it already
most ppl are not using it anyway

I’d prefer to get Dhuumfire completely removed and replaced with something that actually makes some sense and is a valid alternative to Close to Death instead of having a worthless grandmaster trait, weaker than an engineer adept trait, that nobody is going to pick anymore.