Guild Wars 2

Hey guys, posting this here because I had a few questions for yall…

• What build was being run here?

• What would you have done differently?

• What is your mentality in a matchup vs Chrono?

• What should you look out for when vs Reaper?

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What would you have done differently?

Maybe don’t use minions against an elite spec with tons of aoe?

Minion spec looks like a bad idea against a Chrono. Also, even if you do use minion spec the Blood Fiend seems like a terrible heal choice against a condi heavy class. When you fight a condi heavy class you are giving up a HUGE heal if you don’t run Consume conditions.

Kodama.6453:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What would you have done differently?

Maybe don’t use minions against an elite spec with tons of aoe?

That’s.. Much less informative than I had hoped.

Could you elaborate? What would you have run and why?

Dristig.9678:

Minion spec looks like a bad idea against a Chrono. Also, even if you do use minion spec the Blood Fiend seems like a terrible heal choice against a condi heavy class. When you fight a condi heavy class you are giving up a HUGE heal if you don’t run Consume conditions.

I was running a power build, marauders actually. And in his defense, he didn’t know I was a Chrono until right before we started, I put out a call for fuels in the mists to try and get a fight vs every other elite.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Kodama.6453:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What would you have done differently?

Maybe don’t use minions against an elite spec with tons of aoe?

That’s.. Much less informative than I had hoped.

Could you elaborate? What would you have run and why?

Minions have crappy AI and will just sit in the AoE getting torn up. That seems OK because of the field they leave behind when they die but it clearly isn’t doing enough damage to you.

Another thing to notice is that this build appears to be extremely starved for Life Force. he is forced into shroud with less than 50% LF several times. If this is in BWE2 then I’d say it is a build problem. in BWE1 it was all around hard but PvPing in BWE2 I didn’t really have LF problems.

You won’t really get satisfying answers IMO because you seem generally better than this player and he is running a build that will always be weak against you.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

I was running a power build, marauders actually. And in his defense, he didn’t know I was a Chrono until right before we started, I put out a call for fuels in the mists to try and get a fight vs every other elite.

I wasn’t really commenting on the damage just the number of conditions that Chronos put out. The heal on Consume Conditions is based on the number of conditions removed.

What would you have done differently?
I wouldn’t have agreed to fight in the first place.

What is your mentality in a matchup vs Chrono?
Don’t bother 1v1, get friends, run away, etc.

What should you look out for when vs Reaper?
Shroud skill #5, counting the cooldowns between when they’re in and when they’re out of Shroud (okay, he just exited Shroud, I have 10seconds to lay on heavy damage before he potentially re-enters), the obvious and long cast time heal.

I’ll comment more later, but simply you played him all game and he used a poor build for going against a Well based Chrono. It actually worries me how long he held out considering how much better of a player you looked.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What build was being run here?

MM with Cele Ammie and Dhhumfire by the looks of it. Looks like DM/SR/R spread.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What would you have done differently?

Gone with a much glassier setup with at least 2 stunbreaks and a condi removal. Played more aggressively. Defensive play against a Mesmer doesn’t go very well. Ever.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What is your mentality in a matchup vs Chrono?

Same as against a normal shatter mes.

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What should you look out for when vs Reaper?

Reaper Shroud mainly. Clones and Phants are ideal for generating Might for BB. I haven’t tested but I’m reasonably sure RS2 destroys the Mirror Blade projectile. So that too. Otherwise it’s an unfavourable matchup, you should be able to stay away to just continually do damage from range. The Reaper won’t do much if he can’t reach you.

You play the Reaper as it were still a range class caster, you are WAY to defensive, even when u see the “real” Mesmer u stand off with Staff and on Reaper thats a bad gameplay imho. Some Wells u never even leave either wich makes me ponder quite alot, fine Calmity and Gravity is the hard hitters and granted you most likely havent spotted wich is wich yet but why stand so long in Wells ? You wont see any1 stand longer then wanted in a WoS.

The Mesmer is also imo all to Defensive but i dont know he was speced for any Shatter at all or just tried to 1v1 Necro as Well-o-Mesmer wich makes me also wonder whats up ?

Watching over just to see how it goes, but if the MM used Blood Fiend he’s a bad player out the gate so I’m not expecting much.

Edit: He’s using Death Magic/Soul Reaping/Reaper, which is already a really bad combination for MM. You notice his damage drops off right away, because he allows his minions to die to your AoE since he has no healing for them, and on top of that he’s using staff, which is another huge damage dropoff. Plus Blood Fiend. Essentially, he’s a tanky Reaper build that happens to use minions, not an MM. He also seemed really slow to respond to stuff.

For your play, you need to concentrate on kiting him into his own minions to drop wells more. I noticed you do it a few times, but other times not so much. You have a build that can double-spam AoE effectively with the F5, so whenever he goes melee you should kite him into Bone Fiend/Blood Fiend, and drop all your AoE. He’ll have to stand in it with you to pressure you, and so will all his minions, which will all die since he has no healing. At that point, you play it like normal. Go offensive when he’s in staff, since he can’t pressure you, play defensive when he has GS/RS. It also seemed like quite a few of your F5s were pretty weak, doing very little. Against a build with little to no burst, you should be using F5s for CD reseting, especially at the beginning of the fight (MM is heavily front-loaded).

meow one twenty.4376:

I’ll comment more later, but simply you played him all game and he used a poor build for going against a Well based Chrono. It actually worries me how long he held out considering how much better of a player you looked.

Hm, with so much research and studying going on that weekend, I didn’t really take skill level into account; I was too focused on looking out for animations and trying to learn everything going on between the two builds. Next time I’ll look for a more mechanically skilled opponent.

Ravezaar.4951:

You play the Reaper as it were still a range class caster, you are WAY to defensive, even when u see the “real” Mesmer u stand off with Staff and on Reaper thats a bad gameplay imho. Some Wells u never even leave either wich makes me ponder quite alot, fine Calmity and Gravity is the hard hitters and granted you most likely havent spotted wich is wich yet but why stand so long in Wells ? You wont see any1 stand longer then wanted in a WoS.

The Mesmer is also imo all to Defensive but i dont know he was speced for any Shatter at all or just tried to 1v1 Necro as Well-o-Mesmer wich makes me also wonder whats up ?

I was the Mesmer, I was curious about Reapers’ abilities.

I was running a Marauder build using Chaos/Chrono/Domination which means…

Sword-Shield / Staff – Runes of Hoelbrak – Sigils of Fire/Energy/Hydromancy

• My interrupts put interrupted skills on a 15s cooldown.
• Interrupts immobilized the target, which is why it looked like they were standing in the wells.
• Each shattered clone strips 1 boon.
• I had protection allday errday.
• Movement-imparing skills (such as chill) are reduced by 45%.

No intentional condi damage here, and no condition removal. No stealth, and it wasn’t a dueling-focused build so much as a team support build.

This should be his build, though I haven’t watched closely enough to gather sigils/runes, and I wasn’t entirely sure what the rest of his Reaper line was.

Thanks alot bhawb, very informative.

Also.. F5 only lasts as long as you have clones, since this build has poor illusion production, my window is only about 2 seconds or so. All the wells have a cast time, so it gets difficult to squeeze in more than two.

Fighting chronomancers as a reaper is generally a bad idea. Eventually, they will win 1 v 1, especially if they decide to kite you even harder. Imagine how it would have went for you if he had decided to use the elevations on terrain to range you while you were trying to climb up, when he only needs to press staff 2. A good daredevil and a good chrono will be some of the toughest opponents for a reaper because of how much they can simply kite you while you flail around.

I fought a really good mesmer as a condition reaper and had great results.

Yeah If I run cleric MM and I’m dueling a power well necro and he puts all of his wells on my minions, they will instantly die unless I’m already pulsing transfusion. I’d imagine that chronomancer wouldn’t be as bad of a matchup since only well of calamity really does a threatening amount of damage, while they other wells seem to be less damage and more support and soft control based. The big issue is that the chronomancer can kite the minions into a well and necromancers can’t really control that.

While MM has been fun and very effective since the AI fix, I probably won’t play it too much anymore, especially since the shouts looks actually viable now. Plus theres scrapper gyros, which may or may not be good, but a few of them look like they could replace certain things on engi to although them to multitask with hammer and rifle, and since they’re duration/cooldown balanced, going clerics to keep them alive like a necromancer would have isn’t viable, since engis have crap AoE heals for AI compared to necros.

Dristig.9678:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

Kodama.6453:

Chaos Archangel.5071:

• What would you have done differently?

Maybe don’t use minions against an elite spec with tons of aoe?

That’s.. Much less informative than I had hoped.

Could you elaborate? What would you have run and why?

Minions have crappy AI and will just sit in the AoE getting torn up. That seems OK because of the field they leave behind when they die but it clearly isn’t doing enough damage to you.

Another thing to notice is that this build appears to be extremely starved for Life Force. he is forced into shroud with less than 50% LF several times. If this is in BWE2 then I’d say it is a build problem. in BWE1 it was all around hard but PvPing in BWE2 I didn’t really have LF problems.

You won’t really get satisfying answers IMO because you seem generally better than this player and he is running a build that will always be weak against you.

I don’t think you’ve played chronomancer at all.

The wells do paltry damage they’re actually used for the utility they provide.

Andlat Helsonr.1284:

Fighting chronomancers as a reaper is generally a bad idea. Eventually, they will win 1 v 1, especially if they decide to kite you even harder. Imagine how it would have went for you if he had decided to use the elevations on terrain to range you while you were trying to climb up, when he only needs to press staff 2. A good daredevil and a good chrono will be some of the toughest opponents for a reaper because of how much they can simply kite you while you flail around.

At least until the changes to axe, which will hopefully be good and involve a range increase to minimum 900 ;>

Yea Mesmer is a much better 1v1 Class then necro, however during BWE duelling Mesmers and some Chronomancers aswell I found that due to RS AA giving LF% and its cleaveing actually made it much more pro-longed fighting just Mesmers then say other classes. I often could use this to my advantage and felt it was much better then say current Life Transfer.

Ravezaar.4951:

Yea Mesmer is a much better 1v1 Class then necro, however during BWE duelling Mesmers and some Chronomancers aswell I found that due to RS AA giving LF% and its cleaveing actually made it much more pro-longed fighting just Mesmers then say other classes. I often could use this to my advantage and felt it was much better then say current Life Transfer.

+1 to that comment, I’ve had some really good fights with mesmers on the reaper due to their clones…and how we benefit from hitting multiple targets. A mesmer still has the upper hand in 1v1 just because they can disengage anytime they want to. But reapers have good skillset at dealing with mesmer clones and evasiveness. During BWE2 I was testing cele signet reaper with a shout or two.

Im no mesmer main, but absolutely take GS.
For pvp the short CD dmg and cripple and elite well are the 2 useful ones, but for duel it doesnt matter much if you dont want the empty pprtal slot.
Also try finding an equaly skilled friend – two" bad" builds and a random person from map chat – just saying such a duel holds no useful merit.
Especialy since beta time is limited, even tho i won 10/10 my guildmate did alert me that reaper is always one transfer behimd regular cele necro + you better not use stabilty since low boon coverage will always corrupt it, for example

Against reaper

Absolutely always kite and do ranged pressure when he goes into shroud. Teleport to a ledge so the dash will be less effective, he can either facetank your stuff for 6s for another dash,
Or you just burst him back when he exists.

Dodge/blind the big scythe. No excuses, the fear is 1s and animation is 1.25s
It hits in a circle not just melee tip of weapon so you must use an ability, no sidewalk

3rd most important point
Mesmer has bad 1v1 matchups across the board, its real strength is in portals etc…just keep that in mind for what actually matters in teamplay

Dodge/blind all greatsword skills
Its a super slow weapon with obvious animations. I will give you 2 secret tips
-if he gravedigers one of your low hp clones, the CD recharges so be warry he may have it up more times in a row
-blind is well known hardcounter to necro in staff, even more id say for greatsword, just exeption is the spiral dril #3 skill which is a multi hit so you still get 5/6 hits

Soldier amu vs marader amu
Well known fact soldier has more EHP so you need to outplay and patiently reign free damage upon him. Never exchange blows on a 0 toughness build

From here its l2p mesmer issues
You need to ask a mesmer sry chrono is basically very oldschool glasy shatter mesmer, needs good positioning but great dmg.

Good luck next beta

After watching it more closely I actually have a pretty simple solution to fighting your build:

Constant Poison, Weakness, and Cripple/Chill uptime. Trade his “tankiness” for some Weakness. Cripple would lessen the need for gap closers, the only fight you lost was because he got a Gravedigger off on you, funny because he pulled you with GS5 and followed up with… Autoattack??? Also breaking LoS would have changed things, he just stood out in the open and took whatever you had to give. Poison uptime is self-explanatory but Chillblains + RS4 after either your Staff2 or Sword2 would’ve done wonders. I’d also play around with baiting dodges against you, RS5 for the obvious animation → jump dodge to meet your dodge and then RS4.

That doesn’t even cover utilities or heals. His minions were basically useless except for some Knockdowns from Golem (which he didn’t follow up with anything but AA. sigh).

nearlight.3064:

Yeah If I run cleric MM and I’m dueling a power well necro and he puts all of his wells on my minions, they will instantly die unless I’m already pulsing transfusion.

All their utilities for all your utilities isn’t that bad of a trade, especially since the CDs are pretty close and Death Nova is going to destroy their HP. Plus they’d have to deal about 18k damage, through protection, to kill them. And that’s without Transfusion.

Bhawb.7408:

nearlight.3064:

Yeah If I run cleric MM and I’m dueling a power well necro and he puts all of his wells on my minions, they will instantly die unless I’m already pulsing transfusion.

All their utilities for all your utilities isn’t that bad of a trade, especially since the CDs are pretty close and Death Nova is going to destroy their HP. Plus they’d have to deal about 18k damage, through protection, to kill them. And that’s without Transfusion.

I had no trouble at all tearing through MMs when I played Reaper. It was easier than on GS/Ham Warr even imo. I mean, the MM still takes ages to get down, but minions die in seconds even without Wells. And it barely feels like you lose any DS to Death Nova due to LF generation. I’d argue that a MM losing all his utilities suffers more from it than a Power build. Definitely isn’t an even trade. MM has a lot more traits invested in his utilities.

I’d argue that most MMs are complete garbage, which tends to be true. I’ve done a lot of 1v1s against heavy damage builds, and the reality is that you can put out around 10k healing in a normal MM build, on top of minion base 15k HP. So unless you guys know of some build that can deal 25k AoE damage to both ranged and melee minions at the same time, I’d be really interested to know how everything dies in seconds.

Also, MM only has, at most, 3 traits invested only for minions, with a few others being kind of useful to minions but also generally useful. Flesh of the Master, which makes it harder to kill them and so is fully used when minions are being killed, Death Nova, which is fully used when they die, and Necromantic Corruption which is the only one you actually deactivate. Transfusion and Life from Death are also heavily minion focused, at least in 1v1s, and both of those should also be taken advantage of. So by the time you kill the minions, the MM build doesn’t actually have any traits left that need minions, the traits have already done their job.

I just find a lot of confirmation bias with MM, people who think it is OP will always find it OP because all they see is losing to a build with AI and go “oh well the Necromancer did nothing and I lost to the AI”, and people who see it as too weak are just like “well I beat this MM and they did nothing so MM is bad”. MM is a hard to play and really specific setup build, and people don’t understand the interplay. They treat it like a fire and forget build, which it isn’t. Just look at the person OP was playing against to see an example.

I use blood fiend against trash mobs, where it does well. Anything, or anyone else… XD

Bhawb.7408:

I’d argue that most MMs are complete garbage, which tends to be true. I’ve done a lot of 1v1s against heavy damage builds, and the reality is that you can put out around 10k healing in a normal MM build, on top of minion base 15k HP. So unless you guys know of some build that can deal 25k AoE damage to both ranged and melee minions at the same time, I’d be really interested to know how everything dies in seconds.

You won’t see me disputing the fact that the majority of MM’s I’ve encountered are bad. Besides. 25k AoE damage against targets that don’t move out of AoE or dodge isn’t all that outlandish. Wells + Soul Spiral + Grave Digger will put out about 40k ez if you don’t get interrupted. Protection on Minions definitely doesn’t stick around for long due to WoC. If it ain’t dead after all that you can just press 1 a few more times to finish the job. If it takes more than a couple of seconds you dun goofed.

Bhawb.7408:

Also, MM only has, at most, 3 traits invested only for minions, with a few others being kind of useful to minions but also generally useful. Flesh of the Master, which makes it harder to kill them and so is fully used when minions are being killed, Death Nova, which is fully used when they die, and Necromantic Corruption which is the only one you actually deactivate. Transfusion and Life from Death are also heavily minion focused, at least in 1v1s, and both of those should also be taken advantage of. So by the time you kill the minions, the MM build doesn’t actually have any traits left that need minions, the traits have already done their job.

3 utility traits is still more than the 1 trait affecting your utilities you’d see on a well build. When the MM is without his minions he’s in a lot more trouble than a power build with wells on cd.

Bhawb.7408:

I just find a lot of confirmation bias with MM, people who think it is OP will always find it OP because all they see is losing to a build with AI and go “oh well the Necromancer did nothing and I lost to the AI”, and people who see it as too weak are just like “well I beat this MM and they did nothing so MM is bad”. MM is a hard to play and really specific setup build, and people don’t understand the interplay. They treat it like a fire and forget build, which it isn’t. Just look at the person OP was playing against to see an example.

I understand the build quite well. Played it a bunch for fun, it’s probably my second favourite type of build after wells and spectral. I don’t think it’s op or anything and I know it’s quite a lot more active than most think. And it’s hard to deal with as non-Reaper Necro, I should know, having lost to an MM in the ESL Necro 1v1 thingy in the semi or quarter finals or whatever. Though in my defence I wasn’t sober back then and I forgot to switch to piercing LBs before the fight started. But yeah. But MM has some very clear weaknesses, and strong aoe/cleave is one of them. I don’t see how you can argue against this. You’re experienced enough to know this as well as I do.

AoE is definitely one of the strongest counters, but heavily overestimated on how easy it is to just cleave the minions. Burst AoE on long CDs, which is what Necros have, isn’t what counters MM, you have too much healing/defense, too many ways to counter their AoE. Bone Minions are just blown up before they die, Flesh Golem can be charged out of the AoE and won’t return until it’s done pulsing, and your other two minions are ranged.

Reaper is certainly stronger because of Greatsword, and the ability to use Gravedigger and general AoE. But wells are a really weak setup against MM, because of how easily you can avoid their effects and have maybe 1 ability forced onto CD (Flesh Golem, or a ranged minion), while they have 2+ forced, and now they have no burst to kill you.

The builds that would deal with MM really well are engis with kits, elementalist, Shout Reaper, and other builds that bring a ton of incidental AoE on really short CDs, not Wells necro with a massive CD burst that can be avoided really easily and then lack the kind of pressure needed to down the MM before their CDs are back.

MM can be used effectively by any noob in PvE. Using MM effectively in PvP takes a lot more skill. The learning curve is a long one because of RNG, active skills, and positioning. I cannot do it well and I am not ashamed to admit it.

Bhawb.7408:

AoE is definitely one of the strongest counters, but heavily overestimated on how easy it is to just cleave the minions. Burst AoE on long CDs, which is what Necros have, isn’t what counters MM, you have too much healing/defense, too many ways to counter their AoE. Bone Minions are just blown up before they die, Flesh Golem can be charged out of the AoE and won’t return until it’s done pulsing, and your other two minions are ranged.

Well cooldowns aren’t that much longer than Wurm and Bone Fiend. Minions also have the the downside of taking eons to summon.

Bhawb.7408:

Reaper is certainly stronger because of Greatsword, and the ability to use Gravedigger and general AoE. But wells are a really weak setup against MM, because of how easily you can avoid their effects and have maybe 1 ability forced onto CD (Flesh Golem, or a ranged minion), while they have 2+ forced, and now they have no burst to kill you.

The builds that would deal with MM really well are engis with kits, elementalist, Shout Reaper, and other builds that bring a ton of incidental AoE on really short CDs, not Wells necro with a massive CD burst that can be avoided really easily and then lack the kind of pressure needed to down the MM before their CDs are back.

I would argue that minionless MM with Cleric/Sent/Soldier Ammie also does no damage without minions while power Reaper still does consistently high damage in RS while also having much better LF regen capabilities than MM. Getting your minions off CD won’t win you the fight when you’ve been losing the DPS race after all the utilities are spent if everything blows up in the initial engagement.

I’d put Reaper above Ele for dealing with MM. At least with Ele if you’re MM you can get them burns transfers.

I also have to add that I don’t see how shout reaper would do any better against MM than wells. Only YAAW is good there. NCSY and Suffer won’t do diddly.

Bhawb.7408:

AoE is definitely one of the strongest counters, but heavily overestimated on how easy it is to just cleave the minions. Burst AoE on long CDs, which is what Necros have, isn’t what counters MM, you have too much healing/defense, too many ways to counter their AoE. Bone Minions are just blown up before they die, Flesh Golem can be charged out of the AoE and won’t return until it’s done pulsing, and your other two minions are ranged.

Reaper is certainly stronger because of Greatsword, and the ability to use Gravedigger and general AoE. But wells are a really weak setup against MM, because of how easily you can avoid their effects and have maybe 1 ability forced onto CD (Flesh Golem, or a ranged minion), while they have 2+ forced, and now they have no burst to kill you.

The builds that would deal with MM really well are engis with kits, elementalist, Shout Reaper, and other builds that bring a ton of incidental AoE on really short CDs, not Wells necro with a massive CD burst that can be avoided really easily and then lack the kind of pressure needed to down the MM before their CDs are back.

BM/DM/SR Wellmancer vs MM goes completely in the other way in a straight up 1v1, from my experience. Unless I have never ever fought a decent MM (plausible) or I am better than I think (plausible). I have seen a MM successfully win a 2v1 against some teammates, then at another time I walked right over him.

I control where your minions go as much as you do and I’ll use them to heal myself. Position myself in a way that breaks LoS and I can pull all but the Wurm, and your Golem will just run into a wall trying to escape. My LF generation is better since I can take Spectral Armor and your minions will always attack me when I have it up. There’s basically nothing you have worth dodging besides Golem and Warhorn 4, and no condi pressure (my only weakness).

Do Wellmancers just throw down all their Wells at once against you? That’s pretty silly for an attrition fight.

meow one twenty.4376:

Bhawb.7408:

AoE is definitely one of the strongest counters, but heavily overestimated on how easy it is to just cleave the minions. Burst AoE on long CDs, which is what Necros have, isn’t what counters MM, you have too much healing/defense, too many ways to counter their AoE. Bone Minions are just blown up before they die, Flesh Golem can be charged out of the AoE and won’t return until it’s done pulsing, and your other two minions are ranged.

Reaper is certainly stronger because of Greatsword, and the ability to use Gravedigger and general AoE. But wells are a really weak setup against MM, because of how easily you can avoid their effects and have maybe 1 ability forced onto CD (Flesh Golem, or a ranged minion), while they have 2+ forced, and now they have no burst to kill you.

The builds that would deal with MM really well are engis with kits, elementalist, Shout Reaper, and other builds that bring a ton of incidental AoE on really short CDs, not Wells necro with a massive CD burst that can be avoided really easily and then lack the kind of pressure needed to down the MM before their CDs are back.

BM/DM/SR Wellmancer vs MM goes completely in the other way in a straight up 1v1, from my experience. Unless I have never ever fought a decent MM (plausible) or I am better than I think (plausible). I have seen a MM successfully win a 2v1 against some teammates, then at another time I walked right over him.

I control where your minions go as much as you do and I’ll use them to heal myself. Position myself in a way that breaks LoS and I can pull all but the Wurm, and your Golem will just run into a wall trying to escape. My LF generation is better since I can take Spectral Armor and your minions will always attack me when I have it up. There’s basically nothing you have worth dodging besides Golem and Warhorn 4, and no condi pressure (my only weakness).

Do Wellmancers just throw down all their Wells at once against you? That’s pretty silly for an attrition fight.

Slightly off-topic, but I’ve been running a BM/DM/SR spread with a crusader amulet and I absolutely love the synergies that let it stall a point foreverandeverandever.

meow one twenty.4376:

BM/DM/SR Wellmancer vs MM goes completely in the other way in a straight up 1v1, from my experience. Unless I have never ever fought a decent MM (plausible) or I am better than I think (plausible). I have seen a MM successfully win a 2v1 against some teammates, then at another time I walked right over him.

Can’t say I’ve faced this before, so I could only speak on a theoretical level. I don’t see it being any more than a skill matchup though. You are essentially the same as the MM build, just built differently, but it is an attrition setup, and the only build that really out-attritions MM is D/D ele, which is only true because D/D is OP as hell. I’d have to play the matchup though, because obviously I could be totally wrong.

meow one twenty.4376:

I control where your minions go as much as you do and I’ll use them to heal myself. Position myself in a way that breaks LoS and I can pull all but the Wurm, and your Golem will just run into a wall trying to escape. My LF generation is better since I can take Spectral Armor and your minions will always attack me when I have it up. There’s basically nothing you have worth dodging besides Golem and Warhorn 4, and no condi pressure (my only weakness).

Works for non-conquest well, but in conquest it is really difficult to clump them up on top of you without inviting yourself to pound town, and without going off point. Its the old “I’m not stuck in here with you, you’re stuck in here with me” thing, sure you can deal a lot of damage to them all, but you’re also standing right on top of two Death Novas (not including any more you cause by killing minions), you’re taking their full damage, conditions are flying right back at you, and I’m not being pressured at all. And you still need to be able to burst your way through 25k HP, which isn’t happening outside of heavy damage builds. That’s why incidental AoE is stronger, they die as a by-product of you simply doing what you’d always do, instead of using burst to deal with them. Also as a side note SA has a 1s ICD, just about any fight will have it proccing at that rate, the minions won’t trigger it more.

If we’re not talking PvP, I could see it working though.

meow one twenty.4376:

Do Wellmancers just throw down all their Wells at once against you? That’s pretty silly for an attrition fight.

The thing is you don’t out sustain an MM. You can’t out heal them, you won’t realistically slow them down with conditions, and they’ll either have Death Nova making it insanely difficult to out sustain because of weakness/poison, or they have Unholy Sanctuary which basically resets the fight every time DS is popped.

But again, I’d have to play the matchup and I haven’t.

Bhawb.7408:

meow one twenty.4376:

BM/DM/SR Wellmancer vs MM goes completely in the other way in a straight up 1v1, from my experience. Unless I have never ever fought a decent MM (plausible) or I am better than I think (plausible). I have seen a MM successfully win a 2v1 against some teammates, then at another time I walked right over him.

Can’t say I’ve faced this before, so I could only speak on a theoretical level. I don’t see it being any more than a skill matchup though. You are essentially the same as the MM build, just built differently, but it is an attrition setup, and the only build that really out-attritions MM is D/D ele, which is only true because D/D is OP as hell. I’d have to play the matchup though, because obviously I could be totally wrong.

meow one twenty.4376:

I control where your minions go as much as you do and I’ll use them to heal myself. Position myself in a way that breaks LoS and I can pull all but the Wurm, and your Golem will just run into a wall trying to escape. My LF generation is better since I can take Spectral Armor and your minions will always attack me when I have it up. There’s basically nothing you have worth dodging besides Golem and Warhorn 4, and no condi pressure (my only weakness).

Works for non-conquest well, but in conquest it is really difficult to clump them up on top of you without inviting yourself to pound town, and without going off point. Its the old “I’m not stuck in here with you, you’re stuck in here with me” thing, sure you can deal a lot of damage to them all, but you’re also standing right on top of two Death Novas (not including any more you cause by killing minions), you’re taking their full damage, conditions are flying right back at you, and I’m not being pressured at all. And you still need to be able to burst your way through 25k HP, which isn’t happening outside of heavy damage builds. That’s why incidental AoE is stronger, they die as a by-product of you simply doing what you’d always do, instead of using burst to deal with them. Also as a side note SA has a 1s ICD, just about any fight will have it proccing at that rate, the minions won’t trigger it more.

If we’re not talking PvP, I could see it working though.

meow one twenty.4376:

Do Wellmancers just throw down all their Wells at once against you? That’s pretty silly for an attrition fight.

The thing is you don’t out sustain an MM. You can’t out heal them, you won’t realistically slow them down with conditions, and they’ll either have Death Nova making it insanely difficult to out sustain because of weakness/poison, or they have Unholy Sanctuary which basically resets the fight every time DS is popped.

But again, I’d have to play the matchup and I haven’t.

It works in conquest really well.
I actually find it to be a soft counter to MM builds (Vampiric Rituals healing with 2-3 Wells against all your minions is pretty insane). Anyone who played Power Necro pre-patch should be able to hop on it and be effective against any power class.

You should find someone to try against you, if you have the patience for an attrition vs attrition fight! :P