Guild Wars 2

Fix staff 4 and or stop with the stealth nerfs. In the beginning it used to remove all your condis, then it removed 5, and now it removes 3 per target hit essentially making it the same as dagger 4. This was never mentioned in any patch notes. Furthermore staff 4 is no longer removing conditions from allies.

Edit: Punctuation.

+9001. This was a gigantic nerf to staff.

And Staff/most ground cast skills need to be fixed not to go on full cd when cast is interrupted by a instant action.
Btw it still transfers up to 5 conditions, but only if they are all non damaging (in pve at least) if you get any bleed or burning onto you it just transferst 3 (you can test it pretty easy for the rest of the day in the trials).

I won’t lie: I don’t mind the change to 3 conditions per target. It puts greater reward on using the skill on multiple targets than before.

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

Softspoken.2410:

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

Agreed. Totally unnecessary and kitten one of the excellent support tools the Necro had.

Here here, says I!

Softspoken.2410:

I won’t lie: I don’t mind the change to 3 conditions per target. It puts greater reward on using the skill on multiple targets than before.

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

It is arguable that a full condi cleanse on that kind of CD, when paired with the other condition removal that we have is too much, so I agree there. But they need to say it, or acknowledge the bug (I don’t care if its on the forums, but this needs fixing, tired of stuff like downed HP bugs screwing us for months).

Bhawb.7408:

Softspoken.2410:

I won’t lie: I don’t mind the change to 3 conditions per target. It puts greater reward on using the skill on multiple targets than before.

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

It is arguable that a full condi cleanse on that kind of CD, when paired with the other condition removal that we have is too much, so I agree there. But they need to say it, or acknowledge the bug (I don’t care if its on the forums, but this needs fixing, tired of stuff like downed HP bugs screwing us for months).

Yeah, I mean, I think it’s ok for us to have definitively better control over conditions than other professions through strong effects like this, but a nerf like this isn’t necessarily the end of the world. It’s incredibly troubling for an intentional nerf this big to not make it into the patch notes, though.

Honestly, not upset about the nerf but it kind of ruined that necromancer 1v1 for me. That was like who can hold out until the last second with bleeds on them to swap. Now a days I just end up swapping something dumb like chill, weakness, cripple.

Would really like to see a red post here…

That change to 3 conditions per target would be OK if there was no removal order (or a more favorable one ? or am I just unlucky ?) because I feel that those bleed stacks I carry love me so much, they don’t want to go away when I transfer 3 out of 4 conditions…

I hope it’s just bad luck, because with Corrupt Boon only corrupting Stability when there’s nothing else to corrupt, I don’t want more skills to hate us… (I mean, besides flower staring minions, spells stopped by grass or thin air for no reason, etc…) >_>

Bhawb.7408:

It is arguable that a full condi cleanse on that kind of CD, when paired with the other condition removal that we have is too much, so I agree there. But they need to say it, or acknowledge the bug (I don’t care if its on the forums, but this needs fixing, tired of stuff like downed HP bugs screwing us for months).

We got CC (kinda mandatory heal), Deathly Swarm (slow moving swarm of angry insects), IF you pick up lich the aoe Grim Specter (not timed but projectile based null field), WoP aka worse null field, Shrouded Removal (if you dare go into DM and then not pick up staff traits) and Plague signet that is just as buggy of a (again projectile) skill as Corrupt Boon, so technically we got same amount of (on overall higher cooldowns) and even less reliable condi removal than mesmers, who love to whine about it (i dont count the signet nor the minion removals because they rely on a full bar).

The difference is that Mesmers in PvP can’t afford to take those CDs on the common builds (Shatter/Phantasm), whereas not only can we afford them, the big ones are what we’d be taking anyway (CC, Putrid Mark, Deathly Swarm), which means we lose nothing by taking them.

Bhawb.7408:

Softspoken.2410:

I won’t lie: I don’t mind the change to 3 conditions per target. It puts greater reward on using the skill on multiple targets than before.

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

It is arguable that a full condi cleanse on that kind of CD, when paired with the other condition removal that we have is too much, so I agree there. But they need to say it, or acknowledge the bug (I don’t care if its on the forums, but this needs fixing, tired of stuff like downed HP bugs screwing us for months).

yes , im sure a gaurdian will agree with all this condition removal as well , heck just about any class has alot of condition removal (save for maybe Rangers , and possible warriors ? i think they have 1 skill but as far as the rest of the game , there is already an insane amount of condition removal)

It’s becoming increasingly obvious that somebody over at Anet has an anti-necromancer agenda and won’t be satisfied until the entire class has been stomped out. Why else give us Dumbfire and then use it as a justification to nerf everything else?

Remove the kitten ed thing and revert all these nerfs. And please give us the courtesy of discussing the balance of our class in our own class forum instead of the SPvP forum. You’re not sending the right message here by publicly executing a class so gleefully.

i approve of that statement Fungalfoot ;-)

From a non-necro perspective, staff needs something to tell from what mark is being cast. Honestly, all 4 animations look exactly the same.

Iavra.8510:

From a non-necro perspective, staff needs something to tell from what mark is being cast. Honestly, all 4 animations look exactly the same.

Mark of Blood makes the necros hands glow dark, Chillblains summons a white snake in the air, Putrid Mark sparkles white instead of black on the place where the mark will be placed…
I think that the Reapers mark notification is a bug with radiant gloves, but it makes their elbow to start of hand give off the ds like leather black stripes for the poker card give animation (when necro does the horisontal hand move).

I am starting to notice #4 is crap now, i used to use it as a cleanse but now..staff is just…..
something like an acessory, like cool skin with a cool animation.. onlyu reason to take a staff now ^^ .. oh and fear :P

Andele.1306:

Iavra.8510:

From a non-necro perspective, staff needs something to tell from what mark is being cast. Honestly, all 4 animations look exactly the same.

Mark of Blood makes the necros hands glow dark, Chillblains summons a white snake in the air, Putrid Mark sparkles white instead of black on the place where the mark will be placed…
I think that the Reapers mark notification is a bug with radiant gloves, but it makes their elbow to start of hand give off the ds like leather black stripes for the poker card give animation (when necro does the horisontal hand move).

That aside, he’s right that you can’t tell which mark is which at a glance unless you really took the time to memorize the symbols. It’s not like, say, Elementalist staff spells, each of which is instantly recognizable and whose threat is obvious from the animation alone. It’s hard to say what they could do for Marks to accomplish that, though.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Andele.1306:

Iavra.8510:

From a non-necro perspective, staff needs something to tell from what mark is being cast. Honestly, all 4 animations look exactly the same.

Mark of Blood makes the necros hands glow dark, Chillblains summons a white snake in the air, Putrid Mark sparkles white instead of black on the place where the mark will be placed…
I think that the Reapers mark notification is a bug with radiant gloves, but it makes their elbow to start of hand give off the ds like leather black stripes for the poker card give animation (when necro does the horisontal hand move).

That aside, he’s right that you can’t tell which mark is which at a glance unless you really took the time to memorize the symbols. It’s not like, say, Elementalist staff spells, each of which is instantly recognizable and whose threat is obvious from the animation alone. It’s hard to say what they could do for Marks to accomplish that, though.

Show a symbol above the necromancer’s head as the animation is playing, or even directly in front of their face in the style of glyphs?

Edit: I’m just examining the animations now, and while a case could be made for chillblains (I hadn’t noticed that white-green streak before, but it is quite visible) putrid mark’s is nearly impossible to notice (hands glow black-green while casting) and I still can’t see any animation difference on the necro between mark of blood and reaper’s mark.

Hmm, perhaps some sort of holographic image could show over the mark as it’s cast on the ground.

Mark of Blood could be a vampire of some kind, maybe, or even just a torrent of blood.

Chilblains could be some sort of creepy, icy claws grasping together.

Putrid Mark could be some sort of knot symbol where the strands flow through each other, with the black from one strand flowing into the other.

Reaper’s Mark could be a Grim Reaper ascending before disappearing into a puff of black smoke.

All these animations would happen rapidly (I’m talking like 3/4 of a second so they couldn’t overlap) and they wouldn’t appear at all if the mark triggered and would end when triggered.

… Actually, that sounds kinda awesome.

Doesn’t really help when the mark is cast on your position. I’d suggest something like ele glyphs which show a unique animation at the ele’s hand while casting.

/edit: Not saying that i want to deny you your holographics ^^ Necro animations are actually kinda plain and could need something.

Iavra.8510:

Doesn’t really help when the mark is cast on your position. I’d suggest something like ele glyphs which show a unique animation at the ele’s hand while casting.

That could be cool too. Though I’m not sure you need to know what was cast at your position: you’re either going to be bleeding, chilled+poisoned, condi-transfered, or Feared. The effect will have already hit you before the animation could have played, so no useful information will have been communicated.

Softspoken.2410:

Edit: I’m just examining the animations now, and while a case could be made for chillblains (I hadn’t noticed that white-green streak before, but it is quite visible) putrid mark’s is nearly impossible to notice (hands glow black-green while casting) and I still can’t see any animation difference on the necro between mark of blood and reaper’s mark.

Blood has a bigger black effect than other marks (all make the characters hands glow and have a small black ripple on the ground on cast) so that it its not like a small light but a black fire around the hand, you know chillblains, putrid is kinda cheezy because its black ripples are white/invis like the shatter effects on a mesmer and it doesnt even show up enough unless you have like almost maxed graphical settings. Reapers has the glow placed on the actual arm not the hands.
All are exisiting effects, but not really notable in combat, but what id like to know is whats the difference between it and mesmer shatters, guardian staff 1 (seriously 60% of it is invis unless you again max out your graphics) or any asura animations in general and even more important, STAFF DOES kitten DAMAGE, from all two handers it has the weakest skill ratios, while as a condi weapon it requires a 40 point investment (ok 20 being staple for terror but still) for it not to be just a swap to staff when full of condis drop marks DS then swap back to scepter.

Iavra.8510:

Doesn’t really help when the mark is cast on your position. I’d suggest something like ele glyphs which show a unique animation at the ele’s hand while casting.

Cast time should be then dropped by at least half (and with that i mean including aftercast/card deal on table the necro does):
Blood – Blood/tear like red drop
Chillblains – toxic teal rip on a black ground or a half invisible back with spine showing
Putrid – Snake skeleton/fangs on a chalice
Reapers – Grenth or Dhuum

Erm i swear this never use to be the case. But i was just looking at the animations and the symbols in Lions Arch. Chillblains and Reaper’s Mark now have the exact same symbol with the green smoke emitting from the centre. Based on the icons on the skillbar id say some patch has replaced chillblains symbol with reapers mark. Probably when they altered mark base size.

spoj.9672:

Erm i swear this never use to be the case. But i was just looking at the animations and the symbols in Lions Arch. Chillblains and Reaper’s Mark now have the exact same symbol with the green smoke emitting from the centre. Based on the icons on the skillbar id say some patch has replaced chillblains symbol with reapers mark. Probably when they altered mark base size.

Changed them in beta 2→3 from the creepy skull guy to identical rune.

My issue with it is that staff is slowly becoming mediocre.

Staff 1 = garbage, power doesn’t make it do very good damage and it has no condition.
2 = Okay, the bleed is fine if condi, the regen is ok, but Death Shroud eats Regen, and typically a necro won’t sit in staff (thus its not REALLY 100% uptime)
3. Some okay utility.
4. Was good group utility, now 1v1 its pretty meh, and it doesn’t help team fights as much anymore, on xv3+ now it might work like it used to for yourself, pretty kittenty imo.
5 A 1 sec fear on a 40 sec cd. Eh, Warhorn has better uses in my dearest opinion, unless you run a terror build.

Staff was a great utility weapon, not just a conditionmancer weapon, but I feel like its losing its grip a bit.

Why do marks need to be more obvious? We really want to make them even easier to avoid?

Right? They’re already skill shots, and you see a necromancer with a staff waving his hand, it’s pretty easy to be sure he’s casting a mark. L2Dodge roll/Invuln/Block(Far less have unblockable now) or just about anything else. Staff doesn’t need more kicks in the nuts.

Bhawb.7408:

Why do marks need to be more obvious? We really want to make them even easier to avoid?

I think there’s something to be said for increased readability. Nobody likes taking damage without a clear source or idea of what’s happening to them. More pressingly, if some of the staff’s power is taken from foes having no idea what stepping on a mark will do to them, it can be re-applied elsewhere. Maybe the autoattack could be given a damage buff, or maybe dodge-rolling over marks wouldn’t have to trigger them anymore. The staff doesn’t need to have power budget spent on illegibility.

Mostly, though, I’m an animations kitten. I like pretty graphics.

I don’t actually think there is any meaningful power involved with the staff animations though. Marks can be avoided in all the normal ways (unblockable is deservingly costly), and are all skillshots, and are currently massively bugged, and can easily be avoided if you happen to miss on the initial drop, if not nullified outright by dodge rolling through them.

What power would you add back to compensate for the fact that people can now nullify Reapers mark and Putrid mark (Putrid mark which is already very weak) on every cast (with sufficiently good mechanical skill)?

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t actually think there is any meaningful power involved with the staff animations though.

Let’s use two Elementalist staff skills to show what I mean.

Fire 2: Lava Font. 6 second cooldown, pulses a small amount of damage every second for 4 seconds.

Water 4: Frozen Ground. 40 second cooldown, pulses Chill each second for 5 seconds.

Both are circular AoEs, both are fields, but it’s readily apparent which is which. Their effects are also pretty intuitive from a glance: Lava Font looks like a bunch of lava bubbling out of the ground, so you’d expect it to deal damage. Frozen Ground looks like a patch of cold, which you’d expect to be difficult to walk on if you saw it in real life. Now, an opponent can see these two AoEs on the ground and they can make choices therefrom. Obviously you wouldn’t usually want to stand in an AoE at all, but if you’re running from a zerg you’d probably be fine running through a Lava Font but would want to avoid Frozen Ground. Conversely, you might be more ok letting a Tainted Shackles casting root you on Frozen Ground rather than a Lava Font (because the per-tick damage is fairly low but it adds up over time). Maybe if you’re a Necro, you might stand on Frozen Ground on purpose just so you can transfer the Chill or use it to power CC.

Not all spells need to display this sort of information, but not doing so is a strength. If an enemy player sees a Mark of Blood in front of them, they don’t necessarily know from a glance that it’s just a bit of damage and some bleeds from someone running a power build. For all they know, it could be a Reaper’s Mark from someone with Terror, 1500 condition damage, and +100% Fear duration, and maybe there’s a cliff right there. This uncertainty leaves the player with limited counterplay options, so counterplay had to be reintroduced by allowing dodge rolls to pop marks harmlessly.

If it were much clearer what the marks actually did, perhaps it would be ok to allow them to only trigger when someone actually steps on them (you could still dodgeroll over them, but the mark wouldn’t actually go off until someone touched it outside of a dodge roll). Then you could feel free to walk through a Mark of Blood if you were willing to eat the bleeds and keep your endurance. I think we can all agree that dodging to pop marks is an overly binary counterplay option.

Bhawb.7408:

Marks can be avoided in all the normal ways (unblockable is deservingly costly), and are all skillshots, and are currently massively bugged, and can easily be avoided if you happen to miss on the initial drop, if not nullified outright by dodge rolling through them.

Marks sticking around after the initial cast is actually a major strength of them. Most other AoEs don’t do that. Lava Font and Frozen Ground would be far stronger if they didn’t start until someone actually stepped in them. I would love to be able to pre-cast Meteor Storm over a location if I thought someone would walk into the area in the next 30 seconds.

Not to mention they do more over time, if staff did all of its effect all at once it’d be ridiculous. The easy to dodge attacks like dragon fang are much more potent than a mark is.

ronpierce.2760:

Not to mention they do more over time, if staff did all of its effect all at once it’d be ridiculous. The easy to dodge attacks like dragon fang are much more potent than a mark is.

Sure, I’m not saying that one spell or another is necessarily more powerful, I’m just trying to illustrate what I meant when I said improving our animations could be a good place to take off some power budget so it can be added somewhere else. Ideally, the Necro staff would be a fun weapon to both use and play against but it’s not perfect yet on either count.

Blaine Tog.8304:

ronpierce.2760:

Not to mention they do more over time, if staff did all of its effect all at once it’d be ridiculous. The easy to dodge attacks like dragon fang are much more potent than a mark is.

Sure, I’m not saying that one spell or another is necessarily more powerful, I’m just trying to illustrate what I meant when I said improving our animations could be a good place to take off some power budget so it can be added somewhere else. Ideally, the Necro staff would be a fun weapon to both use and play against but it’s not perfect yet on either count.

Please dont, necros never were real spikes (and no touch necros aka touch rangers are rangers, while blood spike is kinda like our well bomb, a one off trick), just let us have good old reliable skills on at least one weapon.
Also both your examples prove nothing really since they have the identical problems as marks, can be dropped on enemy and easy to dodge if just placed to zone.

Upvote for silly undocumented changes which ruin our support meta.

My new signature:

Stealth nerfs are the perfect fertilizer for mistrust.

BTW since maintenance Putrid works in PVE (the cleanse not sure about transfer since the condis nades put on me that werent vuln and chill were low duration).

Softspoken.2410:

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

I didn’t even notice that! I was still blithely chucking Putrid Marks in the middle of fights thinking I was cleansing my allies!!!! That’s just terrible, was it even mentioned anywhere?

ronpierce.2760:

but I feel like its losing its grip a bit.

I see what you did there! :p

manveruppd.7601:

Softspoken.2410:

However, the loss of allied condition transfer is positively infuriating.

I didn’t even notice that! I was still blithely chucking Putrid Marks in the middle of fights thinking I was cleansing my allies!!!! That’s just terrible, was it even mentioned anywhere?

No, anet doesn’t give enough kitten to even says so. They didn’t when they dropped putrid from unlimited conditions to 5, they didn’t when they dropped it to 3 and they didn’t when it stopped working on allies.