Guild Wars 2

and one more thing that just naging me, is that every other new spec class have an red name taging there class form yes iam talking about the devs,talking about this and that even droping an trait info, it´s like non of are even playing an necro.

Well, greatswords tend to have pretty weak auto attacks I guess, but you’d think the Reaper Shroud auto would at least be on par with Life Blast, especially since it’s melee.

Daliz.8394:

and one more thing that just naging me, is that every other new spec class have an red name taging there class form yes iam talking about the devs,talking about this and that even droping an trait info, it´s like non of are even playing an necro.

Historically Necromancers have had to buy the Devs cakes to get them to notice us. :P

More seriously why aren’t our shouts instant… like every existing shout in the game. One of the massive advantages (instant/uninterruptable and can be used without interrupting other skills) of that skill type is denied to our class. (Only argument I can see is the mediocre damage – which I’d trade for actual support… or blast finishers which necros can’t have.)

Cogbyrn.7283:

And yes, LF can be generated more reliably, but with a build that is attempting to stay in RS as much as possible, and siphon life back with every attack while in RS, wouldn’t some extra LF play into that build’s hand? I say it works for siphon builds solely because siphoning is going to work through shroud, based on the stream. The LF you are receiving does effectively mitigate more direct damage, though even if you just mitigate an additional 5k damage in the extra 5k LF you get, that’s still an 8 – 9k effective heal? As of right now, that’s the equivalent of a 4 – 5 condition CC.

I wouldn’t use the shout in a 1on1, but it isn’t designed to be used in a 1on1. The shout also has a shorter cooldown, and I believe a shorter cast time? Not sure on the second part.

I can just imagine a scenario where it might be useful. Most of the time I’ll still take CC from the looks of it, but I like that this heal exists.

Two things.
1. Life siphoning will work through Shrouds but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to work any better than when you’re not in DS/RS. Maybe you could squeeze out a little extra with Vampiric Precision and Deathly Perception, but overall there will be no difference.
2. Even if you get the 5 target maximum and generate 20% (22% with Gluttony), that is really not that much. A single Necrotic Grasp can do the same… per second!
Spectral Armor can generate up to 85%, a traited Locust Swarm up to 150%, Spectral Wall has no aoe limit so this one actually has the highest lf regen potential of all our skills.
So, really, 4% per hit on a 20 sec cd skill is not just underwhelming, but it makes this shout rank among the worst lf generators we have. And considering that the best case scenario for the life force part of it potentially puts you in a situation where you’re going to be attacked by 5 people, those 20% lf make about as much of a difference as a drop of water in the ocean, even if you can get a couple of extra siphoning hits this way.

Also, let’s say Your Soul is Mine gives you 20% per hit, so up to 100% life force. Of course this sounds a lot more compelling, but would you really trade this for more regular healing and a full cleanse? I definitely would not. Healing is just so much more valuable than generating life force. So unless the healing part of YSiM by far surpasses Consume Conditions there’s absolutely no reason to even consider taking it instead.

flow.6043:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And yes, LF can be generated more reliably, but with a build that is attempting to stay in RS as much as possible, and siphon life back with every attack while in RS, wouldn’t some extra LF play into that build’s hand? I say it works for siphon builds solely because siphoning is going to work through shroud, based on the stream. The LF you are receiving does effectively mitigate more direct damage, though even if you just mitigate an additional 5k damage in the extra 5k LF you get, that’s still an 8 – 9k effective heal? As of right now, that’s the equivalent of a 4 – 5 condition CC.

I wouldn’t use the shout in a 1on1, but it isn’t designed to be used in a 1on1. The shout also has a shorter cooldown, and I believe a shorter cast time? Not sure on the second part.

I can just imagine a scenario where it might be useful. Most of the time I’ll still take CC from the looks of it, but I like that this heal exists.

Two things.
1. Life siphoning will work through Shrouds but that doesn’t mean that it’s going to work any better than when you’re not in DS/RS. Maybe you could squeeze out a little extra with Vampiric Precision and Deathly Perception, but overall there will be no difference.
2. Even if you get the 5 target maximum and generate 20% (22% with Gluttony), that is really not that much. A single Necrotic Grasp can do the same… per second!
Spectral Armor can generate up to 85%, a traited Locust Swarm up to 150%, Spectral Wall has no aoe limit so this one actually has the highest lf regen potential of all our skills.
So, really, 4% per hit on a 20 sec cd skill is not just underwhelming, but it makes this shout rank among the worst lf generators we have. And considering that the best case scenario for the life force part of it potentially puts you in a situation where you’re going to be attacked by 5 people, those 20% lf make about as much of a difference as a drop of water in the ocean, even if you can get a couple of extra siphoning hits this way.

Also, let’s say Your Soul is Mine gives you 20% per hit, so up to 100% life force. Of course this sounds a lot more compelling, but would you really trade this for more regular healing and a full cleanse? I definitely would not. Healing is just so much more valuable than generating life force. So unless the healing part of YSiM by far surpasses Consume Conditions there’s absolutely no reason to even consider taking it instead.

I don’t like to call absolutes until it is field tested. However, I would absolutely try this when running around with a siphon spec in WvW. No question. And if it gave 20,000 LF off of 5 targets every 20 seconds? You better believe I’d trade regular healing and a full cleanse for it. We can use a utility slot for a full cleanse that also serves as a stun break. We can select weapons with good cleanse. I have options to deal with cleansing.

I’m not saying it’s going to be good. It may be very underwhelming. I just don’t automatically assume there’s no reason to ever do anything with respect to builds/skills until I play around with them myself.

Also, since when does Spectral Wall generate LF at any time besides being cast with the appropriate trait? Maybe that’s a change they made recently or something.

What I mainly worry about right now is battle initiation, with 0 LF we are weak and the trade-off with LF gain vs damage taken during the first fight is close to deadly,while active defense and projectile destruction is still an issue the weak(er) state at start of match is bad.

Sagat.3285:

What I mainly worry about right now is battle initiation, with 0 LF we are weak and the trade-off with LF gain vs damage taken during the first fight is close to deadly,while active defense and projectile destruction is still an issue the weak(er) state at start of match is bad.

Take Blighter’s boon. Have people pre-buff just a little bit (swiftnessness. Banner shout warrior will likely be a thing so thats 1% LF every 3 seconds). Team composition can fix that easily.

Cogbyrn.7283:

And if it gave 20,000 LF off of 5 targets every 20 seconds? You better believe I’d trade regular healing and a full cleanse for it. We can use a utility slot for a full cleanse that also serves as a stun break. We can select weapons with good cleanse. I have options to deal with cleansing.

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, since when does Spectral Wall generate LF at any time besides being cast with the appropriate trait? Maybe that’s a change they made recently or something.

4% whenever an enemy runs into it. Not sure if it ever didn’t generate life force this way…

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

What I mainly worry about right now is battle initiation, with 0 LF we are weak and the trade-off with LF gain vs damage taken during the first fight is close to deadly,while active defense and projectile destruction is still an issue the weak(er) state at start of match is bad.

Take Blighter’s boon. Have people pre-buff just a little bit (swiftnessness. Banner shout warrior will likely be a thing so thats 1% LF every 3 seconds). Team composition can fix that easily.

Yeah, even if it gets nerfed with an ICD, Blighter’s Boon would be able to give you at least some life force at the beginning of the match with the help of some allied boons (or even self-boons like Blood is Power and Locust Swarm). Maybe not enough to RS at the very beginning of the first fight, but at least shorten the time it will take to do so effectively.

ronpierce.2760:

Sagat.3285:

What I mainly worry about right now is battle initiation, with 0 LF we are weak and the trade-off with LF gain vs damage taken during the first fight is close to deadly,while active defense and projectile destruction is still an issue the weak(er) state at start of match is bad.

Take Blighter’s boon. Have people pre-buff just a little bit (swiftnessness. Banner shout warrior will likely be a thing so thats 1% LF every 3 seconds). Team composition can fix that easily.

That’s a bit of forced mechanic/trait, LF at start is not my issue it’s a side effect the issue is why we are weak with none. The darn slow cast times and animations which are also gets annoying as well not hitting jack or havind to dodge cancelling. It’s all good they see some issues but core ones like those are more of hindrance. Nothing wrong with being the slowest but that slow, their big cast times big payoffs reaper catchprhase should apply to necro in general.

spoj.9672:

So yeah [damage coefficients >0.85] arent amazing.

Is this a joke? This a joke.

The only reason you’re asking “why aren’t these higher” is because the Reaper’s fair attack intervals aren’t enough to keep up with everyone either blinding or being invulnerable all of the time in GW2. Why not just address the latter issue and then lean more on the former paradigm? Wouldn’t that be healthier for gameplay? Instead people keep asking for the one hit that does land to just gib people.

spoj.9672:

Chilling Scythe should be atleast 1.2 coefficient. Guard greatsword has a better auto attack than this currently. Its also faster and gets more modifiers through traits.

Check out the wiki to compare coefficients on other classes. And remember [that other classes] have way more and way better damage modifier traits. So we need high coefficients as base just to be equal.

Why not just tone down the guys dealing 2-4k damage just for pressing 1 and letting the game run for them? Or maybe not so much tone down damage but just add a longer cast (1 second for chain 3 autoattack abilities)? If you’re worried about PvE here, enemies HP can be reduced in order to balance the effects of more cued powerful attacks. By concentrating more damage into a telegraphed final stage autoattack chain skill, it gives more legibility and soft counterplay options to PvP instead of the whole chain just dealing loads of damage automatically.

spoj.9672:

Some [damage coefficients] i think are fair. Some are a bit lackluster especially considering how [fair] many of them are.

This is all I’ve been hearing after this update. It’s really telling about gw2’s gameplay and it’s community.

Reducing health in PvE does nothing to improve the damage. Because the other classes will still have higher coefficients per second. My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

I dont understand half of what you are saying. Seems like you are trolling or have some vendetta against certain playstyles.

spoj.9672:

Reducing health in PvE does nothing to improve the damage.

The point wasn’t to improve damage, it was to make damage fairer and promote risk/reward play. However, doing so would make PvE more tedious, so to counteract making damage fairer in general, PvE mob HP could use a reduction.

spoj.9672:

Because the other classes will still have higher coefficients per second. My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

I suppose that’s true looking over at least the guardian GS. Even with the guardian GS, though, that weapon is relatively slow and properly cued. I’m not sure the game needs to have attack intervals too much slower than that for the sake of flavor or balance, but it certainly doesn’t need to consistently drop damage any faster.

My main worry is the community already calling for buffs to cast times or damage coefficients just based on what’s already in the game. What is already in the game is hardly properly balanced around telegraphed and skillful play. It’s stuff like having huge damage on auto-attacks, adding damage to a pulsing blind/cripple field or adding poison and damage to a pull that just doesn’t make any sense given their already effortless use and/or raw utility. The necro community is already powercreeping their specialization before it is out. That’s how thirsty you people are to be just another warrior or guardian.

Erasmus.1624:

spoj.9672:

Reducing health in PvE does nothing to improve the damage.

The point wasn’t to improve damage, it was to make damage fairer and promote risk/reward play. However, doing so would make PvE more tedious, so to counteract making damage fairer in general, PvE mob HP could use a reduction.

spoj.9672:

Because the other classes will still have higher coefficients per second. My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

I suppose that’s true looking over at least the guardian GS. Even with the guardian GS, though, that weapon is relatively slow and properly cued. I’m not sure the game needs to have attack intervals too much slower than that for the sake of flavor or balance, but it certainly doesn’t need to consistently drop damage any faster.

My main worry is the community already calling for buffs to cast times or damage coefficients just based on what’s already in the game. What is already in the game is hardly properly balanced around telegraphed and skillful play. It’s stuff like having huge damage on auto-attacks, adding damage to a pulsing blind/cripple field or adding poison and damage to a pull that just doesn’t make any sense given their already effortless use and/or raw utility. The necro community is already powercreeping their specialization before it is out. That’s how thirsty you people are to be just another warrior or guardian.

I’d say it’s more desperation to finally be wanted for PvE.

Anyway, somewhat related to this convo, I wonder how the Blood Magic rework will turn out. I’m getting this strange growing suspition that the ideal direct DPS build for Reaper won’t be Reaper/Spite/Soul Reaping, but actually Reaper/Spite/Blood Magic, since all of the Necromancer’s life siphon traits also do additional damage, damage that ignores armor. If you think that the group could provide enough vulnerability to not need Unyielding Blast and still get the most from Decimate Defenses, and can use that trait and still run Zerker’s to hit the crit cap without Death Perception, the idea of running a Reaper that isn’t running Soul Reaping to max their killing power in RS doesn’t sound so silly, which lets you get the damage boosts from all those Blood Magic Life Siphon traits.

spoj.9672:

Gravedigger – 2.027

Mhh Robert said Gravedigger’s modifer would be high compared to any other skill but that doesnt seem that high to me when there are skills with a modifer of 2.8…

I wonder if it is because gravedigger doesnt have a cd when it hits enemies below 50%.

Muchacho.2390:

spoj.9672:

Gravedigger – 2.027

Mhh Robert said Gravedigger’s modifer would be high compared to any other skill but that doesnt seem that high to me when there are skills with a modifer of 2.8…

I wonder if it is because gravedigger doesnt have a cd when it hits enemies below 50%.

Well, the way I see it it basically becomes your auto attack when your foes are below the threshold. If you look at it that way I guess it really isn’t too shabby.

OlliX.1705:

Muchacho.2390:

spoj.9672:

Gravedigger – 2.027

Mhh Robert said Gravedigger’s modifer would be high compared to any other skill but that doesnt seem that high to me when there are skills with a modifer of 2.8…

I wonder if it is because gravedigger doesnt have a cd when it hits enemies below 50%.

Well, the way I see it it basically becomes your auto attack when your foes are below the threshold. If you look at it that way I guess it really isn’t too shabby.

Yes and no.

Compare it to heartseeker for example. We know what spamming that is like when you’re below the threshhold and it does the same damage as gravedigger if it’s really a 2.0 coefficient. However, gravedigger is also a 1.25 second cast, which is likely closer to 2 seconds with the full animation.

So while the damage is certainly where it should be, the DPS is likely much lower than that of similar execution type attacks.

OlliX.1705:

Muchacho.2390:

spoj.9672:

Gravedigger – 2.027

Mhh Robert said Gravedigger’s modifer would be high compared to any other skill but that doesnt seem that high to me when there are skills with a modifer of 2.8…

I wonder if it is because gravedigger doesnt have a cd when it hits enemies below 50%.

Well, the way I see it it basically becomes your auto attack when your foes are below the threshold. If you look at it that way I guess it really isn’t too shabby.

Mhh Gravedigger doesnt seem faster then the dagger auto sequence and since the dagger auto sequence has a higher power coefficent, i would guess that spamming dagger auto gives more damage then spamming gravedigger on enemies below 50%, which makes it a rather weak executioner skill…

flow.6043:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And if it gave 20,000 LF off of 5 targets every 20 seconds? You better believe I’d trade regular healing and a full cleanse for it. We can use a utility slot for a full cleanse that also serves as a stun break. We can select weapons with good cleanse. I have options to deal with cleansing.

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, since when does Spectral Wall generate LF at any time besides being cast with the appropriate trait? Maybe that’s a change they made recently or something.

4% whenever an enemy runs into it. Not sure if it ever didn’t generate life force this way…

I would take LF + a weaker heal + Plague Signet (high cooldown, also a stun-break and an instant transfer that can’t be interrupted) instead of Consume Conditions and a different utility (Plague Signet serves me very well in almost any situation) situationally. There’s more than one situation that can arise in this game, and people play more than one game mode where it might not be as effective.

Also, Necro tooltips fail again. Nowhere does any skill or trait indicate that Spectral Wall provides LF when an enemy runs into it. I’m sure the excuse is that it doesn’t provide the LF on cast, so they can’t put it in the on-cast tooltip. Regardless, it’s the same dumb flaw Spectral Armor has, which specifically says “Removed when you enter Death Shroud.”

How irritating.

Myrkr.5803:

Historically Necromancers have had to buy the Devs cakes to get them to notice us. :P

More seriously why aren’t our shouts instant… like every existing shout in the game. One of the massive advantages (instant/uninterruptable and can be used without interrupting other skills) of that skill type is denied to our class. (Only argument I can see is the mediocre damage – which I’d trade for actual support… or blast finishers which necros can’t have.)

The main reason I see for the cast times on shouts right now, is two things.

1: They’re afraid that we will make a massive burst build by running into a group of people and face rolling the keyboard to proc all our shouts at once. However the damage is so low (other then the elite) this would be pretty bad anyway.

2: They are afraid we will have massive burst healing via Chilling Nova (or Augory for faster CDs), Chilling Force and Blighters Boon. You would chill some plebs, Chilling nova would Chill more plebs, and hitting said chilled plebs will give you potentially 10% LF per shout (30% for the heal) and 5 stacks of might. So By face rolling all 5 shouts with no cast time, you would get:

YSIM: 4k heal, 30% LF, 5 Might
YAAW: 20% LF (assuming each seperate target will proc Blighters), 25 might
Suffer: 10% LF, 5 Might
NCSU: 10% LF, 5 Might
CTTB: 20% LF (assuming each seperate target will proc Blighters), 5 Might

That’s 90% LF (99% if you are have gluttony) in an instant.

Also if you have Reaper’s Might, and your foes are chilled, then your RS auto will cause 4 stacks of might per attack, for a net gain per auto chain of:

12 stacks of might
15% LF
1596 health

All that said, I’m not saying this is easily pulled off, or even realistically will happen in PvP (or for that matter, even a good idea), but you can bet your kitten on it that Anet will be balancing around the possibility.

Cogbyrn.7283:

flow.6043:

Cogbyrn.7283:

And if it gave 20,000 LF off of 5 targets every 20 seconds? You better believe I’d trade regular healing and a full cleanse for it. We can use a utility slot for a full cleanse that also serves as a stun break. We can select weapons with good cleanse. I have options to deal with cleansing.

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Also, since when does Spectral Wall generate LF at any time besides being cast with the appropriate trait? Maybe that’s a change they made recently or something.

4% whenever an enemy runs into it. Not sure if it ever didn’t generate life force this way…

I would take LF + a weaker heal + Plague Signet (high cooldown, also a stun-break and an instant transfer that can’t be interrupted) instead of Consume Conditions and a different utility (Plague Signet serves me very well in almost any situation) situationally. There’s more than one situation that can arise in this game, and people play more than one game mode where it might not be as effective.

Also, Necro tooltips fail again. Nowhere does any skill or trait indicate that Spectral Wall provides LF when an enemy runs into it. I’m sure the excuse is that it doesn’t provide the LF on cast, so they can’t put it in the on-cast tooltip. Regardless, it’s the same dumb flaw Spectral Armor has, which specifically says “Removed when you enter Death Shroud.”

How irritating.

Upcoming update nerfing tooltips to show truthful values and descriptions , AGAIN!

Hi folks ,

Specialisation traits are fine (good job donne there Anet).

Great Sword and Reaper Shroud are both good.
(Projectile block on Reaper Shroud 2 in front of you would be nice , Great sword skills have to work whyle moving exept 4 th skill.)

Shouts are good , but some could get a change
I think base Heal should be looked at.
The chilling one could still stunt break. (but it’s ok if it doesn’t have it.)
Rise seem pretty weak for the high CD.

Blood magic syphoning througs DS is good (but should work with at least all self healings (It’s totaly cuting down Parasitic contagion , Mark of blood , etc). )

Skills activating whyle in DS shouldn’t have ICD + Allowing to use utilities whyle in DS is mandatory (why shouln’t you stunt break into your Death Shroud phase ?). Globaly buffing our defence trait lines to get scaling defences is still something we need. Lingering Curse 100% duration is to much , i’d rather see an easyer acces to terror (master) to improve condition builds effectiveness than having that enormous condition duration boost.

To conclude There are a lot of things whe can do with the reaper spec. But don’t forget other builds have to work either , and to do so base traits have to be looked at. (What fun would there be if from 2 nearly viable builds (“terror mancer” and Power necro) we now have to take Soul Reaping + Reaper for all our builds.)

After looking at the shouts a bit more, I have to say the cast times are a bit extreme.
“Your soul is mine” has way too low of a heal for a 3/4 sec cast time and gives little incentive to use it over Consume Conditions. I think this would be interesting if it had an instant 1/2 or 1/4 sec cast time, giving way for a great sustain heal.
“You are all weaklings” seems fine.
1.25 sec cast time on “Suffer!” is way too high for too low reward. 0.75 sec cast time would work better. The effect is too weak for a 40 second CD.
“Nothing can save you” looks good.
I’m uncertain about “Rise”. 1.5 sec cast time makes me nervous, but with certain traits and which minion it’s changed to (if it is) could make it justified.
Having a 2 sec cast time on the elite effectively disables you for the same duration it disables your enemy (assuming they don’t stunbreak). For this I suggest having the stun not be removed by stunbreaks and increasing the stun duration to 3 seconds.

The Wizland.8435:

After looking at the shouts a bit more, I have to say the cast times are a bit extreme.
“Your soul is mine” has way too low of a heal for a 3/4 sec cast time and gives little incentive to use it over Consume Conditions. I think this would be interesting if it had an instant or 1/4 sec cast time, giving way for a great sustain heal.
“You are all weaklings” seems fine.
1.25 sec cast time on “Suffer!” is way too high for too low reward. 0.75 sec cast time would work better.
“Nothing can save you” looks good.
I’m uncertain about “Rise”. 1.5 sec cast time makes me nervous, but with certain traits and which minion it’s changed to (if it is) could make it justified.
Having a 2 sec cast time on the elite effectively disables you for the same duration it disables your enemy (assuming they don’t stunbreak). For this I suggest having the stun not be removed by stunbreaks and increasing the stun duration to 3 seconds.

Please don’t ask for more crutches. Anything at or below a 0.5 second activation time is outside of the range of reliable counterplay. Don’t just get things for free. Opponents don’t have fun because they can’t do anything about what you are doing, and you aren’t being rewarded for anything because you aren’t taking risks to perform any important actions.

Erasmus.1624:

Please don’t ask for more crutches. Anything at or below a 0.5 second activation time is outside of the range of reliable counterplay. Don’t just get things for free. Opponents don’t have fun because they can’t do anything about what you are doing, and you aren’t being rewarded for anything because you aren’t taking risks to perform any important actions.

This isn’t really a crutch considering the insanely low heal on it. It’s almost half the heal of Consume Conditions and it lacks the utility of CC. Maybe instant is too low but .25 or .5 sec cast time sounds fine.

Erasmus.1624:

That’s how thirsty you people are to be just another warrior or guardian.

What’s wrong with wanting every prof to be meta-viable, again…?

Erasmus.1624:

The Wizland.8435:

After looking at the shouts a bit more, I have to say the cast times are a bit extreme.
“Your soul is mine” has way too low of a heal for a 3/4 sec cast time and gives little incentive to use it over Consume Conditions. I think this would be interesting if it had an instant or 1/4 sec cast time, giving way for a great sustain heal.
“You are all weaklings” seems fine.
1.25 sec cast time on “Suffer!” is way too high for too low reward. 0.75 sec cast time would work better.
“Nothing can save you” looks good.
I’m uncertain about “Rise”. 1.5 sec cast time makes me nervous, but with certain traits and which minion it’s changed to (if it is) could make it justified.
Having a 2 sec cast time on the elite effectively disables you for the same duration it disables your enemy (assuming they don’t stunbreak). For this I suggest having the stun not be removed by stunbreaks and increasing the stun duration to 3 seconds.

Please don’t ask for more crutches. Anything at or below a 0.5 second activation time is outside of the range of reliable counterplay. Don’t just get things for free. Opponents don’t have fun because they can’t do anything about what you are doing, and you aren’t being rewarded for anything because you aren’t taking risks to perform any important actions.

Seriously have you played a pve necro? Its awful. And pvp and wvw are such small aspects of gw2. 75% of the player base is most engaged in PVE, so that is really the focus. Necros are forced to be good in only pvp and wvw, and even then its questionable. All of the necro skills are already super telegraphed. The gs will get interrupted or dodged, the wells all have cast times, our spectral grasp is a projectile, staff is a projectile, axe is a piece of trash. Scepter and dagger are currently our only viable damage options and they’re super low compared to any other class. the minons suck, and everything else is a condi or a buff. So its not out of line to ask for things. Its not out of line to say, hey can we get some shouts that either dont totally suck or atleast function with no cast time. Thats a perfectly reasonable request.

The Wizland.8435:

This isn’t really a crutch considering the insanely low heal on it. It’s almost half the heal of Consume Conditions and it lacks the utility of CC. Maybe instant is too low but why not .25 or .5 sec cast time?

I already told you why anything at or below 0.5 s is bad. If you’re going to keep crying about it, cry about the healing amount, not the activation time. Even 0.75 s is pretty lenient in the grand scheme of things. Alternatively, just use consume conditions anyway.

Golby.5348:

What’s wrong with wanting every prof to be meta-viable, again…?

At what cost? What is meta-viable in GW2? Passive healing and instant triggers? The game plays itself for you at that point. I’d rather just actually feel actively responsible for what is happening on the field instead of letting a server do most of the work for me. Gameplay would be much more engaging and rewarding if gw2’s community and developers didn’t keep taking the easy way out on everything.

Darwec.3784:

Seriously have you played a [insert game mode here] necro?

Yes, and while it isn’t good, there are other ways to improve it that aren’t “pls gib instant effects and passive hard counters so I can keep mashing effortless buttons like everyone else in the game” or “pls make necro like warrior and guardian.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/A-good-necromancer/first#post5026965

And even then, people never fail to think just in terms of necromancer. GW2 is a game out of whack. This isn’t just about necro. The main reason why necro is “underpowered” is because everything is just far too overtuned past any threshold which would allow player skill to make a real difference in combat.

Erasmus.1624:

I already told you why anything at or below 0.5 s is bad. If you’re going to keep crying about it, cry about the healing amount, not the activation time. Even 0.75 s is pretty lenient in the grand scheme of things. Alternatively, just use consume conditions anyway.

But why make it more generic when it could be made more unique? Even if 0.5 s or below isn’t interruptible, it’s still counterable because the low heal means that if you’re already low it won’t help much, so you can get bursted down. You’re taking the risk of not having an emergency heal. And telling someone to just use a different skill isn’t the answer making a skill better.

0.75 sec cast time isn’t bad but the heal seems very weak to me. Seems to me that it’s balanced around 5 targets with the cooldown reduction trait.

The Wizland.8435:

Erasmus.1624:

I already told you why anything at or below 0.5 s is bad. If you’re going to keep crying about it, cry about the healing amount, not the activation time. Even 0.75 s is pretty lenient in the grand scheme of things. Alternatively, just use consume conditions anyway.

But why make it more generic when it could be made more unique? Even if 0.5 s or below isn’t interruptible, it’s still counterable because the low heal means that if you’re already low it won’t help much, so you can get bursted down. You’re taking the risk of not having an emergency heal. And telling someone to just use a different skill isn’t the answer making a skill better.

3/4 sec already makes it the fastest Necro Heal in terms of cast time, and 20 seconds ties with Blood Fiend for the fastest cooldown. I don’t know what amulet they were using for the demo, but 3,954 is only 1,286 less than Consume Condition’s base heal, which if you factor Heal over Time, is effectively 263.6 health per second for “Your Soul Is Mine!” vs. 262 health per second for Consume Conditions- almost equal. The question really becomes do you want extra life force, or condi removal with extra healing that comes with it.

Erasmus.1624:

Darwec.3784:

Seriously have you played a [insert game mode here] necro?

Yes, and while it isn’t good, there are other ways to improve it that aren’t “pls gib instant effects and passive hard counters so I can keep mashing effortless buttons like everyone else in the game” or “pls make necro like warrior and guardian.”

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/necromancer/A-good-necromancer/first#post5026965

And even then, people never fail to think just in terms of necromancer. GW2 is a game out of whack. This isn’t just about necro. The main reason why necro is “underpowered” is because everything is just far too overtuned past any threshold which would allow player skill to make a real difference in combat.

I agree with your second statement. The problem with the game is the style of combat requires that you have a dps meta. But I also firmly believe anet will NEVER change that. And as long as there is a dps meta, instant effects are NECESSARY.

Erasmus.1624:

At what cost? What is meta-viable in GW2? Passive healing and instant triggers?

Those things literally everyone else has?

Yeah.

Sorry, giving Necromancer things on par with other professions doesn’t suddenly make GW2’s game design any more “degenerate” or “skill-less” than it already is, it just means there’s another “degenerate” “skill-less” prof that’s actually allowed to play the game.

Sorry, but we need to fix game elements based around what the game currently is, not around every game designer’s pipe dream about how it should play.

The DPS, passive healing, active invulnerability defense meta isn’t going away without severe, PR-ruining nerfs to nearly every profession. Necromancer is one of the few that hasn’t been kept up to speed with it, not part of an invisible “skill mandatory” majority.

spoj.9672:

My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!

Golby.5348:

Erasmus.1624:

At what cost? What is meta-viable in GW2? Passive healing and instant triggers?

Those things literally everyone else has?

Yeah.

Sorry, giving Necromancer things on par with other professions doesn’t suddenly make GW2’s game design any more “degenerate” or “skill-less” than it already is, it just means there’s another “degenerate” “skill-less” prof that’s actually allowed to play the game.

Sorry, but we need to fix game elements based around what the game currently is, not around every game designer’s pipe dream about how it should play.

The DPS, passive healing, active invulnerability defense meta isn’t going away without severe, PR-ruining nerfs to nearly every profession. Necromancer is one of the few that hasn’t been kept up to speed with it, not part of an invisible “skill mandatory” majority.

Well to be fair, you could change the game meta without breaking other professions. More fights should be closer to what mai tran or the grawl shaman are. You take constant, small damage. Enough constant damage that your single heal skill and 2 dodges are not enough. Enough so that instead of active immunes you require frequent small heals in the form of regen or a necro walking up to you and life blast healing you in the face. Not that we even do THAT very well.

But anyways, yes more pipe dreams. Anet’s not taking away the dps meta. That’s here to stay. You can see that from GW1 was, what GW2 became. You can see it in the content they have released thus far and the patches and changes they’ve made. This relatively casual dps meta is here to stay, its exactly the game they want. And necros dont fit into it in any way right now.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!

Assuming that in the video they were not using the attack speed trait, and that using the attack speed trait gets reaper auto attack down to close to dagger AA speed. Assuming that the coefficients we saw were based on barbarians or celestial amulet and not on berserk. Assuming a lot of things. Reaper MIGHT be better than our dagger auto attack chain. Thats a lot of assumptions for a maybe.

So, lets take those assumptions and hope that Reaper is more DPS than dagger. Then the optimal power PVE build would look like this: http://dulfy.net/gw2traits#build=AgQBaAVsBnw~

Where you have 100% crit chance using berzerkers gear, and you have dhuumfire on Auto attacks. This maxes out necro DPS. The auto attack chain from reaper will have similar or just slightly better damage than current dagger auto attack, plus an extra 300 burning every 3 seconds. SO thats nice, we’ve gotten a dps boost there and made death shroud relevant.

More importantly, we bring some utility now by bursting to 25 stacks of vulnerability. Thats important. We can now provide vulnerability stacks while still maintaining max dps. This is something other classes can do, bring utility and max dps. (Ele can do max dps and provide fury, guardians can do dps and provide regen protection reflects, etc). Now we’re close to being on par, thats nice.

BUT, and this is a major but, our dps is STILL lower than ele thief or guard. Our utility is still a short burst instead of sustained through a fight like ele fury is. And this is the ONLY viable necro pve build, and the ONLY viable support weve seen so far from these changes.

The shouts are pretty bad, chill has no place in dungeons, fear and condis have no place in dungons. The Greatsword, even given #2 spamming, is pretty bad. Maybe that #2 spam becomes good in pve once boss is below 50%. So RS until 50%, and t hen GS spam after. But then you lose the vulnerability you were providing through deathshroud, so now you’re back to doing max dps with no utility.

And this is the problem. The other classes dont have to choose between dps and utility. necro does.

The Gates Assassin.9827:

spoj.9672:

My point was that those coefficients on the reaper skills are not strong enough compared to what other classes have. Which means the idea that reaper hits slower but harder isnt exactly true.

Are you accounting for attack speed from the trait and the ability to recharge gravedigger on low targets? Repeated 2’s are pretty strong! Also necro will have a trait called Rending Shroud that will be putting up monstrous amounts of vuln. Not to mention the traits that make your auto attack in Reaper Shroud cause vuln and might!

Vuln and might is something that benefits all classes and they all can gain access to. The attack speed trait certainly helps the reaper shroud damage. But with the greatsword skills those are low coefficients. Like i said other classes attack faster and have about equal or higher coefficients. But they also have more damage modifier traits.

I admit this is more of a PvE perspective. Where vuln and might will be maxed. But we have to consider scenarios like that aswell. Currently the coefficients dont really justify the clunky slowness. It only needs very slight tweaks though. Nothing too major. Main one is the final hit of the greatsword auto and maybe gravedigger and nightfall.

I also feel that the first two hits of reaper shroud could be a little stronger. 0.6 coefficients are quite weak for any auto attack on anything. The attack speed is pretty good. But even with that those first 2 hits are a little on the low side. Maybe thats intentional though. To discourage camping RS auto too much.

I agree those numbers were very low on damage. Im not sure on what gear he was using but those werent big numbers.

It’s safe to say he was using a terrible spec for some reason. He had 25k-30k hp in the clips.

Zefrost.3425:

It’s safe to say he was using a terrible spec for some reason. He had 25k-30k hp in the clips.

It might not be that bad. It might be valk or soliders and the difference in numbers we saw were from the fact that the beta might have differnt base stat numbers / differnt numbers on the amulets now.

Darwec.3784:

Anet’s not taking away the dps meta. That’s here to stay.

You say that like there is a way to intimidate or dissuade the PvE mobs from trying to kill you by rolling well on your charisma stat or by increasing their damage percentage and knocking them off of the battleground with an up smash.

Darwec.3784:

And this is the problem. The other classes dont have to choose between dps and utility. necro does.

You make this sound like a critical problem instead of it being the only instance of an actual meaningful role choice or unique playstyle in all of gw2.

These comments are on the same asinine level as “I don’t want to go fast; I want everyone else to go slow,” guy.

Erasmus.1624:

Darwec.3784:

Anet’s not taking away the dps meta. That’s here to stay.

You say that like there is a way to intimidate or dissuade the PvE mobs from trying to kill you by rolling well on your charisma stat or by increasing their damage percentage and knocking them off of the battleground with an up smash.

Darwec.3784:

And this is the problem. The other classes dont have to choose between dps and utility. necro does.

You make this sound like a critical problem instead of it being the only instance of an actual meaningful role choice or unique playstyle in all of gw2.

These comments are on the same asinine level as “I don’t want to go fast; I want everyone else to go slow,” guy.

Just…what? What does anything in that post mean? It IS a critical problem. That “role choice” doesnt actually exist.

Tadsoul.6951:

I agree those numbers were very low on damage. Im not sure on what gear he was using but those werent big numbers.

The only way he could hit 30k hp is by having a Vit primary ammy, meaning he had to have been at LEAST short like 300 power. His crit wasn’t there either so he was likely in Sentinel’s.

ronpierce.2760:

Tadsoul.6951:

I agree those numbers were very low on damage. Im not sure on what gear he was using but those werent big numbers.

The only way he could hit 30k hp is by having a Vit primary ammy, meaning he had to have been at LEAST short like 300 power. His crit wasn’t there either so he was likely in Sentinel’s.

Nope Sentinel’s on a necro wouldve put him at 32k min now that traits dont have stats anymore
it definitly had a lot vitality but it wasn’t the main stat of the whole set.

Vizardlorde.8243:

ronpierce.2760:

Tadsoul.6951:

I agree those numbers were very low on damage. Im not sure on what gear he was using but those werent big numbers.

The only way he could hit 30k hp is by having a Vit primary ammy, meaning he had to have been at LEAST short like 300 power. His crit wasn’t there either so he was likely in Sentinel’s.

Nope Sentinel’s on a necro wouldve put him at 32k min now that traits dont have stats anymore
it definitly had a lot vitality but it wasn’t the main stat of the whole set.

It doesnt really matter, because the tooltip was a static screenshot anyways i think? It didnt change when he gained might. So it could have been a totally differnt set of gear when the tooltip was screenshot and when they actually did the play test.

Basically, we dont know anything until we physically get to play with it ourselves.

am i the only one who thinks that gaining our ONLY desired group support from traits is a TERRIBLE idea? our MAIN desired unique/profession specific group support should come from utilities so EVERY Necro spec has access to them. triats, like Blood Magic should only augment the support options and not just be the sole source of them. just take a look at Warriors, every build has access to Banners and Shouts. Ele, every build has access to Glyphs and Conjures. Ranger, every build has access to Spirits. Guardian, every build has access to Consecrations , etc.

so unless ANet is willing to rework our utilities and weapon skills, it will just end up being just another thing that has to be fixed later and i for one don’t want to have to keep waiting for that elusive day to come when Necros have some semblance of parity with the rest of the professions, when the perfect opportunity is now with this expansion.

one other change i would like to see that i read on Reddit would be to allow Dark Fields from Wells to give a weaker version of the Vampiric Aura on blasts instead of giving Blind

With grave digger you can set it up a number of way or force people to waste dodges for it. It can be blinded but there are lots of ways to negate blinds.

The best thing about it is that its aoe and it will recharge when someone below 50% is hit and it will hit for between 4~8k depending on target. These two things will make ressing someone when being attacked by a reaper almost impossible and landing it on anyone below 50% health with the way spinal shivers, air and fire are will kill someone.
It can also be set up with our AOE backstab on RS #5

Cogbyrn.7283:

flow.6043:

So you’d take life force on a weaker heal plus Plague Signet (much higher cd than Consume) instead of Consume Conditions and a better utility skill? I definitely wouldn’t.

I would take LF + a weaker heal + Plague Signet (high cooldown, also a stun-break and an instant transfer that can’t be interrupted) instead of Consume Conditions and a different utility (Plague Signet serves me very well in almost any situation) situationally. There’s more than one situation that can arise in this game, and people play more than one game mode where it might not be as effective.

Sorry, but there simply is no game mode or build or niche situation where this version of Your Soul is Mine would be better than Consume Conditions.

In PvE and WvW zergs you’re never short on life force, so the only time you ever have to worry about generating enough life force is in smaller fights: roaming or sPvP.
But in PvP the utility of Consume Conditions is better and the heal is stronger, simple as that. By implication that means that other healing skills with worse utility only have a chance to compete with Consume if their heal is stronger. That is not a matter of builds or situational effectiveness, but logic!

The same applies to every heal btw, not just YSiM.
The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.
So again, if you want to make other healing skills viable you first need to allow all healing to go through DS/RS. And then you need to adjust the hp amount on every heal.

Currently we’re so desperate for every last bit of healing and yet our best healing option takes an average of 1.5 min to completely refill our total hp just once. The ~5-7k hp on Consume Conditions really is rather pathetic considering that most necros run around with a total health pool of somewhere between 20-25k, and that it’s currently the only source of healing besides maybe regen on Mark of Blood.
I suppose this will change with the upcoming rework of Blood Magic and the addition of some other decent healing traits like Spiteful Renewal, but that doesn’t change the fact that Consume Conditions will still immensly overshadow our other heals.

Solution for Your Soul is Mine (to make it a viable alternative to Consume):
- 8k hp base heal
- plus 1k hp for nearby opponents
- plus 4% lf from nearby opponents

flow.6043:

The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.

In most dungeons, consume provides no utility since there are such few actual condis applied in dungeons that will kill you. Even when there are, you’re usually with an ele or a guardian so those will get cleansed for you. On top of that, dodging mitigates most damage, so the power of your heal straight up doesnt matter. Any of your heals will likely heal you enough to keep you over 90% hp which is all that matters with scholar runes. So…atleast in dungeons…its not that consume conditions is SO GOOD, its just that it really dosnet matter WHAT heal you take. In every other situation, consume is the obvious choice unless you find awkward situational uses for the others.

Darwec.3784:

flow.6043:

The reason you never ever see players using other healing skills than Consume Conditions (even MMs don’t use Blood Fiend) is because they don’t heal enough to compensate for the loss of utility you get with Consume. Also, Vamp Signet, Blood Fiend and Well of Blood don’t work if you’re in Death Shroud, so that makes those worse heals even worse.

In most dungeons, consume provides no utility since there are such few actual condis applied in dungeons that will kill you. Even when there are, you’re usually with an ele or a guardian so those will get cleansed for you. On top of that, dodging mitigates most damage, so the power of your heal straight up doesnt matter. Any of your heals will likely heal you enough to keep you over 90% hp which is all that matters with scholar runes. So…atleast in dungeons…its not that consume conditions is SO GOOD, its just that it really dosnet matter WHAT heal you take. In every other situation, consume is the obvious choice unless you find awkward situational uses for the others.

True, and that actually makes Consume the obvious choice for PvE as well, unless you want to do 3 damage per hour more with Vamp Signet. And the very last thing you need in PvE is more life force.