To start with Idd like to point out that (as everyone knows) necros are bottom tier when it comes down to dps.
When the new greatsword weapon comes out there are two options for it to be:
1. Higher dps than dagger
2. Lower dps than dagger
Now this seems quite obvious, but there is a concern here.
In case 1 greatsword will ofcourse be better and give us a place, but what would we use dagger for then? Dagger seems to be mainly about dps in its current role. Will dagger be trash?
In case 2 we would still be waaay in bottom tier and greatsword would have some other roles hopefully.
Both cases do not seem very appealing to me. I personally love wielding a dagger, but I wouldnt if it doesnt have any purpose.
How do you think about this?
No greatsword on other classes has a decent auto attack. Warrior and guardian greatsword dps comes from the other skills. This is why guardians use a greatsword + sword focus rotation. Because the sword has a higher dps auto attack.
I expect the necro greatsword to be similar. It will have burst skills on the other skills. Dagger auto attack is one of the strongest auto attacks in the game so i find it highly unlikely that a slow greatsword auto attack would do more damage. Especially when all other greatsword autos are low. We might find we get an interesting rotation like the guardian where we constantly swap to take advantage of the burst skills on GS and the auto attack on dagger. Or we might find that we start off on greatsword, use the burst skills then stay on dagger for the rest of the fight.
Or the third option; greatsword turns out to not be very dps orientated at all and just becomes a utility control weapon. So it would only be used when that is needed.
Dagger auto attack is one of the strongest auto attacks in the game
Dagger AA actually isnt that good. The only profession which doesnt have a better AA is ele.
Heck even ranger sword hits higher.
Besides that, dagger does need a more defined role instead of dps/heal/control in my perspective
Dagger auto attack is one of the strongest auto attacks in the game
Dagger AA actually isnt that good. The only profession which doesnt have a better AA is ele.
Heck even ranger sword hits higher.
Besides that, dagger does need a more defined role instead of dps/heal/control in my perspective
2 – 6k auto attacks in quick succession sounds like good damage to me. Necro dagger AA usually hovers around 3 – 4k but can crit as has as 6. I’ve played every profession and though that in no way makes me an expert I can still say from experience that the only professions that come close to having damage that high on any of their AA’s are Thief dagger, Ranger longbow and Warrior axe. Ranger longbow and Warrior axe are slower and Thief dagger doesn’t usually crit quite as high excluding Backstab.
Thief dagger auto is much lower. But backstabs and heartseekers make dagger thief really strong. If you pure dagger auto on a thief its lower than a necro and lower than a sword thief.
Necros dagger auto does about 1.33 coefficients per second. Thats pretty good for an auto attack. Warrior axe is 1.72 cps. Ele lightning whip is 1.47 cps. Thief pure dagger auto is about 1.09 cps. Thief sword is 1.15 cps. Guardian sword is 1.24 cps. Ranger sword is 1.06 cps. Mesmer sword is 0.93 cps.
So as you can see its the third best auto attack of the ones i listed. These numbers might be slighty out as the coefficients and chain times were taken from the wiki. But they seem about right. Obviously classes with more damage modifiers on traits will be able to boost these up further. But in terms of base damage without trait mods these are the numbers.
Correct. The strongest aa is the warrior axe wich is ridiculous. Necro dagger is quite high in aa dps, just about 5% lower than engineer bomb autattack (just that … well 2 targets).
I’d like to see a change in hot again where daggers become single target again but increased damage. Daggers should outdamage every cleaving weapon. The GS and the dagger will fulfill different roles, so I think one is for cleave and the other for rather single target (since dual target damage is just lackluster).
Btw bottom of dps as necro? Sry that spot is reserved for the mesmer :P And single target necro has even better dps than guards.
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Greatsword may be completely different from what we expect. Think about it, no one could have predicted hammer on revenant would be a ranged weapon.
Rly? Like GS mes you couldn’t have predicted it?
Ziggs Ironeye – Engineer | Madame Le Blanc – Mesmer | Mentor (PvE) | EU
“Mentoring engineers / mesmers and showing you what you can do with your fantastic class!
Just pm me for my advice! Always eager to help!”
Greatsword may be completely different from what we expect. Think about it, no one could have predicted hammer on revenant would be a ranged weapon.
Problem is that Marjory exists, who uses the GS as a melee-weapon. It doesn’T make it impossible for us to get a “mesmer greatsword”, just highly unlikely, and seriously, i really do not want the GS to be a condi or control or ranged weapon. Necro doesn’t need more uselessness in PvE.
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Option 3: GS AA is equal to dagger AA. But it will likely cleave and have other skills, where dagger/x will bring something else to the table. It’s not necessarily so black and white.
Id find that highly unlikely considering weve seen that the auto attack looks just like the rangers. So in terms of attack speed it wont be any higher than other greatswords. And it would be rather strange to give really high base numbers on just one auto attack. To put it into perspective they would have to do something like 1.1, 1.1 and 1.4 for the chain. Thats ridiculously high.
Personally I’m hoping the greatsword will be a ranged power build option with good life force generation.
Short of that I hope it has decent damage with some viable group support (Protection, retaliation & healing. Maybe via marks that do direct power based damage.)
dagger already has decent damage & melee but no support.
The main reason necromancers are never brought is because they bring nothing to the group that is not done better by someone else.
To put it into perspective they would have to do something like 1.1, 1.1 and 1.4 for the chain. Thats ridiculously high.
They certainly won’t considering that the attack chain finishes with a chill. If it had no other effect, I might accept really high coefficients, but because it does have an effect I expect pretty mediocre ones.
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To put it into perspective they would have to do something like 1.1, 1.1 and 1.4 for the chain. Thats ridiculously high.
They certainly won’t considering that the attack chain finishes with a chill. If it had no other effect, I might accept really high coefficients, but because it does have an effect I expect pretty mediocre ones.
Mind linking where u saw the necro using the greatsword (other then Marj) & what it was doing ?
To put it into perspective they would have to do something like 1.1, 1.1 and 1.4 for the chain. Thats ridiculously high.
They certainly won’t considering that the attack chain finishes with a chill. If it had no other effect, I might accept really high coefficients, but because it does have an effect I expect pretty mediocre ones.
Funny you should say that. While i do agree especially as the extra effect is chill. The guardian actually has fairly high coefficients on its greatsword auto. And that gives might on the final hit. It does about 1.12 cps. Which is really not much lower than the guardian sword auto which is 1.24 cps. Obviously sword has a better damage mod trait though.
Basically guardian greatsword has the highest coefficents of any greatsword currently. Id expect necro to have about equal or slightly lower to be honest. We have less damage modifiers so we can maybe expect slightly higher coefficients on some weapons. Although we can only see evidence of that on the dagger so far.
My guess is that Greatsword will be higher DPS against 3+ targets while Dagger will be better against 1-2. Gives both a role, then.
Greatsword auto, assuming it is the same as Marjory’s (a pretty likely scenario), is a 4-hit chain, causing 1 second of Chill on the third hit. The entire chain takes about 2 seconds to complete with total cycle speed of 2.2 seconds (so the attack speed is pretty close to dagger AA). The 3rd and 4th hit are opposite ends of the same animation, so they are likely the same skill.
So, it looks like ~50% chill uptime from the auto attack, untraited. Given the strength of Chill, I doubt it will be a high damage attack.
My guess is that Greatsword will be higher DPS against 3+ targets while Dagger will be better against 1-2. Gives both a role, then.
Greatsword auto, assuming it is the same as Marjory’s (a pretty likely scenario), is a 4-hit chain, causing 1 second of Chill on the third hit. The entire chain takes about 2 seconds to complete with total cycle speed of 2.2 seconds (so the attack speed is pretty close to dagger AA). The 3rd and 4th hit are opposite ends of the same animation, so they are likely the same skill.
So, it looks like ~50% chill uptime from the auto attack, untraited. Given the strength of Chill, I doubt it will be a high damage attack.
Doesn’t mean it won’t have high burst abilities though to make up for a weaker AA.
Besides chill is pretty darn useful, especially if it were a ranged attack.
Funny you should say that. While i do agree especially as the extra effect is chill. The guardian actually has fairly high coefficients on its greatsword auto. And that gives might on the final hit. It does about 1.12 cps. Which is really not much lower than the guardian sword auto which is 1.24 cps. Obviously sword has a better damage mod trait though.
Basically guardian greatsword has the highest coefficents of any greatsword currently. Id expect necro to have about equal or slightly lower to be honest. We have less damage modifiers so we can maybe expect slightly higher coefficients on some weapons. Although we can only see evidence of that on the dagger so far.
Interesting! I wasn’t aware that the Guardian GS was so high. Maybe we could get some pretty good AA coefficients and have a solid all-around weapon otherwise. I’m really hopeful that the GS will be enough to boost our DPS to get us comparable at least to Warrior level DPS. We can’t get by with Guardian level DPS without the kind of support they provide.
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If dagger isn’t replaced by greatsword (which it will since greatsword will have more utility) then axe definitely will. I’m pretty sure I’m dropping axe when greatsword comes out.
Greatsword may be completely different from what we expect. Think about it, no one could have predicted hammer on revenant would be a ranged weapon.
Problem is that Marjory exists, who uses the GS as a melee-weapon. It doesn’T make it impossible for us to get a “mesmer greatsword”, just highly unlikely, and seriously, i really do not want the GS to be a condi or control or ranged weapon. Necro doesn’t need more uselessness in PvE.
GS should definetly be melee. Necro already have the scepter and staff, with the staff being the main (and strong) ranged weapon. I’m really, really hoping they will focus efforts on making it a PvE dungeon running weapon. Good cleave, one good attack on low cd, a group buff and some sort of combo cc/mobility skill. The Necro doesnt really need another weapon in any other mode, its going to be pointless competition just like the Mesmer gs/staff dilemma. You could have both, but you loose the utility of the 1h weapons, some very important in certain modes. And if you take just one, you’ll always miss the other.
I will delete my necro if greatsword auto turns out to be ranged.
I could take it either way but frankly I see it being more likely that they would make it a ranged weapon then have it be a high mobility melee weapon like so many want.
And at the end of the day unless it has some useful support on it what good would another melee weapon be when you already have dagger.
I was under the impression that necromancers were not getting the GS….the specialization class that splits off from necromancers are getting the GS. The information given was that the specialization would lose somethings to get somethings. Similar to rangers and druids. I’m assuming maybe dagger is one of the things the specialization class gives up to get the GS?
To start with Idd like to point out that (as everyone knows) necros are bottom tier when it comes down to dps.
When the new greatsword weapon comes out there are two options for it to be:
1. Higher dps than dagger
2. Lower dps than dagger
Now this seems quite obvious, but there is a concern here.
In case 1 greatsword will ofcourse be better and give us a place, but what would we use dagger for then? Dagger seems to be mainly about dps in its current role. Will dagger be trash?
In case 2 we would still be waaay in bottom tier and greatsword would have some other roles hopefully.
Both cases do not seem very appealing to me. I personally love wielding a dagger, but I wouldnt if it doesnt have any purpose.
How do you think about this?
Greetings!
there’s a way out.
GS: better for trash packs (due to cleave). King of vulnerability stacking weapons (vulnerability seems to be the only ‘buff’ we can bring to the party). Also should come with a couple of blast finishers and mobility. A burst skill shot would also be great. (this cures many of the necro’s shortcomings in pve).
Dagger: Better sustained dps if there are 2 or 1 enemies only.
Focus: would lose it’s appeal in pve due to better ways of applying vulnerability via gs, and due to the almost useless #5 skill.
Warhorn: would be used together with dagger.
Rotation: wh5, swap to gs, close distance with mobility skill, do a vuln stacking, power building rotation (with the blast finishers) and burst, swap to dagger to dps the boss down.
i actually came up with what i would like here, but don’t know if anet was reading…
I was under the impression that necromancers were not getting the GS….the specialization class that splits off from necromancers are getting the GS. The information given was that the specialization would lose somethings to get somethings. Similar to rangers and druids. I’m assuming maybe dagger is one of the things the specialization class gives up to get the GS?
Yes the specialisation is getting the greatsword. Forgive us for calling it necro. Seeing as we dont know the name of the spec and we know that specs will still mostly be their base class.
Like i said before. Losing the dagger for GS would totally kill the classes viability in PvE. We would lose our ability to proc energy sigils without totally tanking our DPS. If something like that happens i may be tempted to delete my necro for that reason aswell.
Think of it this way. Currently we have 3 melee sets because we have 3 different offhands. If we suddenly lose our dagger to get a two handed melee weapon. We suddenly only have one melee option. That kills a lot of choice for the class. It prevents swap sigil procs while staying on melee weapons. No other class has only one melee set. The game is heavily melee focused. If anet are interested in helping the necro in PvE they wont remove the dagger mainhand. Id be seriously kittened off if they do something that stupid though.
I cant imagine necro gs not getting some sort of channeled burst attack. Most other weapons have one. Also I doubt it will be ranged as the necro already has one of the best ranged games in gw2, condi or power.
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I was under the impression that necromancers were not getting the GS….the specialization class that splits off from necromancers are getting the GS. The information given was that the specialization would lose somethings to get somethings. Similar to rangers and druids. I’m assuming maybe dagger is one of the things the specialization class gives up to get the GS?
Yes the specialisation is getting the greatsword. Forgive us for calling it necro. Seeing as we dont know the name of the spec and we know that specs will still mostly be their base class.
Like i said before. Losing the dagger for GS would totally kill the classes viability in PvE. We would lose our ability to proc energy sigils without totally tanking our DPS. If something like that happens i may be tempted to delete my necro for that reason aswell.
Think of it this way. Currently we have 3 melee sets because we have 3 different offhands. If we suddenly lose our dagger to get a two handed melee weapon. We suddenly only have one melee option. That kills a lot of choice for the class. It prevents swap sigil procs while staying on melee weapons. No other class has only one melee set. The game is heavily melee focused. If anet are interested in helping the necro in PvE they wont remove the dagger mainhand. Id be seriously kittened off if they do something that stupid though.
Well the thing is they actually CAN NOT take any weapon from us without leaving us kittened over, except maybe offhand dagger. Take dagger, we only have one melee set, take axe, we have no ranged power weapon (i know axe sucks kitten , but still), they cannot take Scepter because thats our Condi-Spam-Weapon, they cannot take Staff because that is our only 1200-range + AE + “hybrid” option… So the only thing they could take away is an offhand, and i dare say OH Dagger is -propably- the least useful. If not traited for yada yada yada. Never used Dagger OH since pre-release , so i wouldn’t know.
“Revenant is actual proof that devs read the necromancer forum” – Pelopidas.2140
I was under the impression that necromancers were not getting the GS….the specialization class that splits off from necromancers are getting the GS. The information given was that the specialization would lose somethings to get somethings. Similar to rangers and druids. I’m assuming maybe dagger is one of the things the specialization class gives up to get the GS?
Yes the specialisation is getting the greatsword. Forgive us for calling it necro. Seeing as we dont know the name of the spec and we know that specs will still mostly be their base class.
Like i said before. Losing the dagger for GS would totally kill the classes viability in PvE. We would lose our ability to proc energy sigils without totally tanking our DPS. If something like that happens i may be tempted to delete my necro for that reason aswell.
Think of it this way. Currently we have 3 melee sets because we have 3 different offhands. If we suddenly lose our dagger to get a two handed melee weapon. We suddenly only have one melee option. That kills a lot of choice for the class. It prevents swap sigil procs while staying on melee weapons. No other class has only one melee set. The game is heavily melee focused. If anet are interested in helping the necro in PvE they wont remove the dagger mainhand. Id be seriously kittened off if they do something that stupid though.
Well the thing is they actually CAN NOT take any weapon from us without leaving us kittened over, except maybe offhand dagger. Take dagger, we only have one melee set, take axe, we have no ranged power weapon (i know axe sucks kitten , but still), they cannot take Scepter because thats our Condi-Spam-Weapon, they cannot take Staff because that is our only 1200-range + AE + “hybrid” option… So the only thing they could take away is an offhand, and i dare say OH Dagger is -propably- the least useful. If not traited for yada yada yada. Never used Dagger OH since pre-release , so i wouldn’t know.
They could still take staff away. Not that they should, but they could. Being the only hybrid and 1200 range weapon doesn’t preclude it as an option.
They can comfortably take scepter or axe because if you take one you still have the other. Yes i understand one is condi focused and one isnt. But thats not as important. Whats important is that they are both ranged 1 handed options. And i suspect the specialisation will be sacrifising condi dmg stuff in favour of control and support. So my guess is scepter or staff going.
From the information we know about HoT PvE (new defiance, focus on open world, large scale content) I am expecting the GS to not have a place in dungeons and be a tanky weapon that will benefit that type of content (CCs, fields, etc).
Note: we don’t even know that a weapon is being taken away. The only thing we know is that there will be some reason to want to play the base profession over the main one, which could just be because old traits will be taken away, or because you don’t want the changed profession mechanic. So just note that all this speculation about which weapon we’d lose is possible to be useless. Especially when you think about say Engineer or Elementalist, who arguably can barely even afford to lose weapons.
It could possibly also have mobility options, which is a niche that isn’t really explored much on necro. That is, maybe it has a leaping skill, or some kind of blink. Or perhaps it can administer power-based AoE damage, which the dagger and axe aren’t very capable of doing (i.e. some kind of spinning attack, wide range auto-attack).
So even though it could have lower single-target DPS than the dagger, it might make up for that in an increased ability to hit multiple targets or to make you more mobile.
Note: we don’t even know that a weapon is being taken away. The only thing we know is that there will be some reason to want to play the base profession over the main one, which could just be because old traits will be taken away, or because you don’t want the changed profession mechanic. So just note that all this speculation about which weapon we’d lose is possible to be useless. Especially when you think about say Engineer or Elementalist, who arguably can barely even afford to lose weapons.
Also true. Weapons are probably the one thing they dont need to sacrifice when specing. Simply because a class cannot use all weapons at the same time anyway.
They said in the angry joe interview that specializations would gain access to new effects, weapons etc…
& that they will not lose access to weapons skills or utilities.
They did not however say that certain skills would not suffer from less effective scaling in order to balance them out.
Colin did not specifically say that they will not lose access to weapon skills or utilities, only that they would not lose anything, and then went on to talk about how you can swap whenever you want OOC. This does two things: 1. it implies that there is a reason to swap (meaning specialization has to not be a direct upgrade, so there is something about the base profession that you can’t use), and 2. it doesn’t say any specifics about whether base profession will or won’t lose anything, only that it isn’t permanent.
I still hope it is not only a power focused only weapon. More damage with cleave is not going to give us anything or make dungeon groups all of a sudden want us. I’m hoping that it brings our hybrid possibilities alive and gives both condition and power builds something useful. Gs as a power only weapon would be boring. Yay 5 more selfish damage abilities with no unique effects? Come on. Let’s us stack a condition that is useful, have some mobility, do cleave, and have a block and I would be interested. If you give me a guardians gs with necro colors I will not likely touch the necro spec because that will be so freaking vanilla. Gogd hope they think outside the box and give us something revenant- esque
Like a gs spin that pulls the condis of allies, grants them resistance, and spits them onto to surrounding enemies, or a throw that once the gs hits a target, it swaps the position of you and your enemy and chills them. Another option is to have a #5 on the gs that pulls some enemies within 600 range to you and then blows them back and roots them for 1 sec. I would like to see the weapon also stack one type of damage condition on the main attack chain, but I’m dreaming so I’ll stop. I know ridiculous.
Colin did not specifically say that they will not lose access to weapon skills or utilities, only that they would not lose anything, and then went on to talk about how you can swap whenever you want OOC. This does two things: 1. it implies that there is a reason to swap (meaning specialization has to not be a direct upgrade, so there is something about the base profession that you can’t use), and 2. it doesn’t say any specifics about whether base profession will or won’t lose anything, only that it isn’t permanent.
My guess is since he said that they do not lose anything is that some things will still be accessible but scale less effectively then they normally would.
