Guild Wars 2

Silv.9207:

Obtena.7952:

The deficiency with block is that I can kill it with a crap attack. You don’t get to choose what attacks you block, it’s completely random. Blocks are not the amazing things people think they are. If you’re LUCKY, your block eats something good.

What if I active it when the enemy try to burst me down with his best shot?

Sure what if you do, you eat one attack of a burst. We all know how blocks work and can imagine all kinds of scenarios. Again, that doesn’t indicate that blocks are a good defense for Necros.

My point is simple … no part of the necro toolset supports blocking, so even if they got a block like Guardians have, I think it wouldn’t be a good defense for them. It’s just a thoughtless add on to the class because someone sees it work well on Guardians. Implementation is so critical for ideas to work with a class; you see that now with life siphons. Life siphon could be great too but it’s not implemented in a way that makes it anymore than a weak, permanent regeneration.

Obtena.7952:

Silv.9207:

Obtena.7952:

The deficiency with block is that I can kill it with a crap attack. You don’t get to choose what attacks you block, it’s completely random. Blocks are not the amazing things people think they are. If you’re LUCKY, your block eats something good.

What if I active it when the enemy try to burst me down with his best shot?

Sure what if you do, you eat one attack of a burst. We all know how blocks work and can imagine all kinds of scenarios. Again, that doesn’t indicate that blocks are a good defense for Necros.

My point is simple … no part of the necro toolset supports blocking, so even if they got a block like Guardians have, I think it wouldn’t be a good defense for them. It’s just a thoughtless add on to the class because someone sees it work well on Guardians. Implementation is so critical for ideas to work with a class; you see that now with life siphons. Life siphon could be great too but it’s not implemented in a way that makes it anymore than a weak, permanent regeneration.

Okay then we should remove all the abilities that give Engineers blocks. Engineers have 2 weapons skills and a few utility skills that add blocks but they get no traits that have anything to do with blocking.

So your point is invalid. The point of my original statement isn’t “because guardians get blocks”, it’s simply because we have no blocks at all. Blocking can do more than what vitality can do. Blocks can stop the effects and conditions of an entire skill. Duration blocks can stop all incoming (non-unblockable :P) attacks and skills thrown your way.

The other stuff is just my own frustrations with this profession lol. Especially the idea that we are attrition.

Every class can perform strong no matter how many enemies are near them while necromancers require multiple enemies to get the most bang for their buck (the buck being most of their skills). Just aint right man.

EDIT: and another thing; Just because we have traits that work off blind or vuln doesn’t mean other classes cant use blinds or vuln just because they have no traits that work off them.

Obtena.7952:

Silv.9207:

Obtena.7952:

The deficiency with block is that I can kill it with a crap attack. You don’t get to choose what attacks you block, it’s completely random. Blocks are not the amazing things people think they are. If you’re LUCKY, your block eats something good.

What if I active it when the enemy try to burst me down with his best shot?

Sure what if you do, you eat one attack of a burst. We all know how blocks work and can imagine all kinds of scenarios. Again, that doesn’t indicate that blocks are a good defense for Necros.

My point is simple … no part of the necro toolset supports blocking, so even if they got a block like Guardians have, I think it wouldn’t be a good defense for them. It’s just a thoughtless add on to the class because someone sees it work well on Guardians. Implementation is so critical for ideas to work with a class; you see that now with life siphons. Life siphon could be great too but it’s not implemented in a way that makes it anymore than a weak, permanent regeneration.

A Block effect can be added to: first seconds of Spectral Armor, Rework on Dagger offhand skill 5 (something like a protecting swarn that block every hit for X seconds), a rework on Signet of Undead (that is totally useless the way it actually is but can be themed by obtaining a Block, Immunity or direct damage immunity), Spectral Walk can block/immune to projectiles or even all hits (similar to mist form of the ele) or even grant it a Teleport effect to increase our chance to flee from a fight (that we totally lack, still with the wurm), the GS need a rework then why don’t use that rework to put a block effect and/or a movement skill on it? Also we don’t have an elite signet and there’s a possibility to make one and add a big block/immunuty on it.
There’s a lot of changes to add a (prolungate) block effect on different bad skills we have.

Yes, again, you can think of all kinds of ways to reinvent the class with blocks. That’s a highly unrealistic scenario in terms of implementation. The most likely implementation of any defensive improvements are going to be along current strategies already part of the class skillset. I’m not here to discuss what could be done because anything could be done. I’m here to talk about what makes sense and is most realistic for the class concept as it stands 4 years into an established game.

What might be a more palatable suggestion is an elite based spec that has some ability to block, but again, how would blocks be integrated into the class through just an elite spec? It would be pretty lame.

Obtena, we’re talking about possible changes, why didn’t you think possible for a necromancer to have any kind of good defensive skill?

We already have some defensive skills and every of them focus on our theme. That’s why they’re all bad defensive skills. The only good one is the Spectral Armor, that is bugged from years and ANet don’t fix it only to make us able to survive a little more, but also that is not enough to make us able to fight in a dps fight.

We’re unable to dps why our only high damage weapon skill is on the GS, that is the worst sPvP weapon for the necro, unable to tank why we have not a single good defensive skill/ability and the only thing we’re actually good is to corrupt boons, that in the actual meta don’t grant us any damage (unless you’re condi and corrupt resistance) and any defence. (unless you corrupt stability for a mere second of fear).

Yes, the necromancer thematically have not to obtain any kind of movement or defensive skill, just why we’re the class with the higher HP Pool of the game. But in sPvP theifs, guardians, revenants look at all our HP Pool and burst us down without mercy.

There’s already a build focused on defence and health siphon: Minion Master. With minions we siphon ealth from the enemy (even with in Shroud) and obtain a little amount of toughness. But for the amount of MM in the game you can see that it’s not the best way to survive in this game. And every minion hit grant you 69 hp (if you’re using a healing based build), is more or less 7 hit/sec if you fight in 1vs1. Plus the Rise! heal, it’s 790 hp/sec by your minions. Add the Vampiric Presence and the passive and you obtain 80hp/hit. Plus the Signet Trait of Blood Magic that heal 680hp/hit while active (5 hit, 5 sec every 20 sec, activated while inflict bleed to a enemy with 4 stacks). With also regeneration active by the staff (120 hp/sec) you can heal yourself (in the best situation) by 1600-1700 hp/sec for 5 seconds, with 980 hp/sec without the signet.
Aaaaaand…. no, that’s not enough to make us survive.

In the past meta, that amount of healing was enough to make us a barely good bunker build. Nowa Mm necro is only a little longer to kill, but not so much longer, with all the AoE damage and the Burst damage that some enemies can unleash over him.

Yes, thematically a necromancer had not to obtain Block or Immunity skills, but there’s also other classes that obtained abilities that go out of they’re theme. The guardian ahve a lot of teleport and lea, where it had to be the more statyc class ever. The warrior have a large amount of condi clean skills (expecially witht he berserker F1 recharge rate) and Resistance, while it was themed as the best class against direct damage and the worst against conditions. The Mesmer obtained a Shield! A Shield!! The thematicly more squishy class ever! With a Shield!!!

I hope to obtain something better. Can it be a big Improve in our LF generation for different weapons, making us able to generate good LF still without the Staff, obtain a big Siphon improvement to make us able to siphon life enough to truly stay alive with it, or other ways.
I just want to become a class that no one focus first why is the onlu class of the game totally unable to defend himself from any kind of enemy assault.

I don’t believe this change is a realistic possibility nor do I think it fits the theme. I hope to obtain something better too, but there are real limitations to what makes sense based on how much work it’s going to create, how well it will be implemented for the class based on it’s concept.

Obtena.7952:

Yes, again, you can think of all kinds of ways to reinvent the class with blocks. That’s a highly unrealistic scenario in terms of implementation. The most likely implementation of any defensive improvements are going to be along current strategies already part of the class skillset. I’m not here to discuss what could be done because anything could be done. I’m here to talk about what makes sense and is most realistic for the class concept as it stands 4 years into an established game.

What might be a more palatable suggestion is an elite based spec that has some ability to block, but again, how would blocks be integrated into the class through just an elite spec? It would be pretty lame.

Right, so this is the reason that this class is being held back by its own theme.

Corrosive Poison Cloud was changed not to long ago to give the skill more purpose and add more defense to the necromancers kit. This type of change is what we’re talking about.

I’ll tell you what the problem is. Necromancers are supposed to take damage. Thats the mindset of the devs. The issue is that only a few skills on the necromancer actually validate that concept. Spectral armor, spectral walk, and signet of vampirism (which is a somewhat recent addition). That’s all. You know the real kicker?: we only have ONE ability that gives retaliation XD. Are we not in the hands of madmen?

We have one trait that adds retaliation (essentially the same skill) which can be blocked; giving us nothing. If they evade or go invuln or dodge we get nothing. Guards have plenty of traits that provide retaliation and don’t even have to rely on hitting something to get it. They just get it. They have more access to retaliation and the most access to blocks. Does that make sense?

You lost me: You’re asking me if Guardians getting retaliation and blocks makes sense. I don’t get how that relates to necros getting blocks as a defensive mechanism. There is no relation between tools that Guardians have and tools that Necros have. None.

If necros are supposed to take damage and they only have a few stills that validate that concept, then to me, the fix to whatever problems they have (or any other class for that matter) is to enhance the skills they already have so they are more effective … but I’ve already said that twice in this thread so … we agree?

Obtena.7952:

You lost me: You’re asking me if Guardians getting retaliation and blocks makes sense. I don’t get how that relates to necros getting blocks as a defensive mechanism. There is no relation between tools that Guardians have and tools that Necros have. None.

If necros are supposed to take damage and they only have a few stills that validate that concept, then to me, the fix to whatever problems they have (or any other class for that matter) is to enhance the skills they already have so they are more effective … but I’ve already said that twice in this thread so … we agree?

No you didn’t get my point. Retaliation doesn’t even work while you are blocking. Guards can have retaliation up while also blocking which makes no sense yet is completely okay by the devs. So when you say it doesn’t make sense that blocking shouldn’t be allowed on necromancers; Where are you deriving this notion? What are you basing it on? Just your own personal beliefs?

I already stated before that Engineers have plenty of blocks yet have zero traits that involve effecting blocks. If this is okay, why isn’t it okay for necromancers? Thieves can block for crying out loud lol.

So whats the problem?

Silv.9207:

I would like something like the ranger Signet of Stone as new elite (we don’t have a Signet Elite). That will make us immune to Direct Damage for 6 seconds but still susceptible to CC and Conditions. A similar skill will help on our weak spot granting better survavibility against that Direct Damage Meta, don’t making us able to evade CC (just why ANet like to make us easy to CC till the death) and we’ll still be able to play our condi-send-back skills.

That would be bad for plague form though. Currently it is our defensive elite (high armor/health and blind spam).

Obtena.7952:

You lost me: You’re asking me if Guardians getting retaliation and blocks makes sense. I don’t get how that relates to necros getting blocks as a defensive mechanism. There is no relation between tools that Guardians have and tools that Necros have. None.

If necros are supposed to take damage and they only have a few stills that validate that concept, then to me, the fix to whatever problems they have (or any other class for that matter) is to enhance the skills they already have so they are more effective … but I’ve already said that twice in this thread so … we agree?

I’ll extend an olive branch to you my friend.

If we are supposed to take damage;

1: Revert Rise! nerfs (or some of them)
2: Give us way more stability. Like we should have the most stability in the game (not the least)
3: Give us way more retaliation

This would be nice actually.

Yes, that list is nice. If what you say is true about necros taking damage, then that list is something a reasonable necro community can discuss with a dev. The whole idea that necro would be reworked to get blocks is just unreal, so discussing necros getting them is academic to me. That’s not to say it can’t happen, but a more effective defense is going to be considered by other parts of the class toolset as well.

Lol wow.

How the hell do people possibly dream this could be balanced.

No, just no.

TheDevice.2751:

Obtena.7952:

You lost me: You’re asking me if Guardians getting retaliation and blocks makes sense. I don’t get how that relates to necros getting blocks as a defensive mechanism. There is no relation between tools that Guardians have and tools that Necros have. None.

If necros are supposed to take damage and they only have a few stills that validate that concept, then to me, the fix to whatever problems they have (or any other class for that matter) is to enhance the skills they already have so they are more effective … but I’ve already said that twice in this thread so … we agree?

I’ll extend an olive branch to you my friend.

If we are supposed to take damage;

1: Revert Rise! nerfs (or some of them)
2: Give us way more stability. Like we should have the most stability in the game (not the least)
3: Give us way more retaliation

This would be nice actually.

1. Reversing the rise nerf is tricky. They could give the minions the health and armor back (which they totally should) but i dont think we will get the 50% damage reduction back (since this was a nerf accoss all professions).

2. It is also unlikely that we will get more stability, just look how hard they nerfed infusing terror (it used to have a 8 sec duration and a 20 sec cooldown). Though i think giving stability outside of shroud would be better anyway (probably on melee weapons mainhand dagger or gs).
Also we are not the profession with the least stability (see thief). The problem is our stability is ether on an elite (the transforms, CttB which requires to hit opponents) or tied to our shroud (infusing terror and foot in the grave).

3. In the past we actually had more retalation but all deathmagic traits about it were deleted in the trait overhaul. And now only the retal form axe and spiteful spirit remains (ahh and well of power if it converts confusion).

You say that thematically the necro had not to obtain any kind of Blocks and then you say OK to Stability and Retalation? Seriously?
From the start of the game we was suposed to be the only class without a stability skill (only obtained by a single well one time and by a trait while entering Shroud, not present at the start of the game).
Another example is that Retalation was supposed to be a damage source for the guardian, the class that had to be the Bunker class with low damage and using Retalation to increase a little his damage. More or less like we do with the Vampiric Traits.
But you have nothing to say about that the Tank class became the best dps class of the game with LB and traps, two things that go totally against the theme of that class, while totally counter the idea of a necromancer with a single block skill?
Even the mesmer obtained good block skills, that go against they’re thematically kind of defensive skills.
Why don’t we deserve a single good defensive skill?

I’m ok for stability why we really need more, also Retalation can be good, but they don’t resolve our main problem: is useless make the enemy suffer a little every time he hit us with insane dps if we’re unable to survive to his hits.

We deserve better defensive abilities and I’m totally ok to follow the theme of the class, I love it. But when the class theme is the thing that make us totally unable to defend ourselves because don’t grant us any good way to do it, I support the idea of other ways to dop it.

The Necromancer is a class that is chained with the Death itself. We have Phantom Skills! Why we’re not able to become a phantom for 3 seconds and be immune to damage? Why are we unable to become a spirit for a moment and evade the enemy hits?
Why are we the class thematically closest to the death itself and the only one unable to don’t die?
Make Spectral Walk grant us immunity will only be a choice perfectly themed with the skill set and visually correct, for example. Themed, working, defensive. All we need.

And a similar skill, expecially in that insane damage meta, will not make us OP at all, will only (finally) grant us a way to save our skin from bein slaughtered by more or less everyone that cross our way.

I didn’t say OK, I said IF what he said was true … let’s have a reasonable amount of critical comprehension here. I get your pushing for blocks, for whatever your reasons are. I don’t disagree with whatever you think they will add because it’s just speculation. I just think that whatever things are added, they are inline with what is already established with the class so you don’t get crappy implementations.

I can tell you this though; I see more support for stability and retaliation in the current necro toolset than I see for blocks. Take that for what it’s worth to you.

More stabs and retaliation fits perfectly the necro/reaper RP, Reaper is supposed to be a slow monster who snares you and hits you hard. But if you are CC to death or tunel dps by class with lot more burst than you this design is ineffective.

They should clearly improve the life force regen from spectral skills to the point where hiting necro under spectral armor is as stupid as hiting Rev under infuse light.

Silverthorn.8576:

They should clearly improve the life force regen from spectral skills to the point where hiting necro under spectral armor is as stupid as hiting Rev under infuse light.

We use to have it. The link below is just one example. It was deemed to powerful against noobs.

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/index.php?title=Spectral_Armor&diff=636602&oldid=616959

Blocks would be nice and all, but I think what really needs to happen is the defenses we already have in place just need to scale better. That is the biggest issue. We don’t really have a lot of problems in the 1v1 department, we have issues with being extremely easy to focus. As a class that is designed to have poor mobility and stay in the fight, we need our defenses to scale and improve when we are against more enemies. They have to do this in a way that wouldn’t make us OP though, and I feel like that is the challenge they are facing. Blocks are a great scaling defense, as they perform the same no matter how many enemies we face, yet it seems Anet wants to give us scaling defenses without giving us blocks.

xeonage.1253:

When 33% protection healing robot(ELE) out of the game. The problem of HoT design was surfaced.

1. healing , CC , AOE are out of control.
2. off and def skills (REV ENG GUARD) is a stupid design.
3. condition stack —-> more clean, aoe clean, more heal —--> more condition damage/stack/kinds
4. more block, inv, dodge—-> less contact time —->more damage/more unblock/more boon/short CD —->more heal/more turn boon

who make gw2 become a spam game?

They make it happen so they should pay for it. This problem like a rolling snowball.
buff to get balance —> more spam/unbalance-—>feel the game unbalance/no brain —->leave the game/chose other game—-> less player pool—->long queue time—->more player leave the game

kitten , so true. And I miss GW1 so much, with its timing and slower combat…