Guild Wars 2

Bug fix?
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Edit: Between Ventari, Ele, Druid, it’s time to figure this out.

Druid is a healer. Synergy requested.

+10 for relevance

Well… at this point its obvious ANet is trying to force healers/support builds onto Raids. We’ll see if it happens, because ANet is notoriously bad (they know this too) so it is entirely possible that it won’t be the case, however, the dire situation is pretty much confirmed: no healing through DS will be a major hamper to Necro, basically solidifying that the only time we’ll be used is for solo content within raids, if that happens to be a thing.

Hopefully the base changes come around and fix this somehow, but I just don’t see how we’ll be wanted at this point. Not only do we not play well as far as offensively buffing our allies, but at this point our allies can’t even help us with entire builds in some cases.

Bhawb.7408:

Well… at this point its obvious ANet is trying to force healers/support builds onto Raids. We’ll see if it happens, because ANet is notoriously bad (they know this too) so it is entirely possible that it won’t be the case, however, the dire situation is pretty much confirmed: no healing through DS will be a major hamper to Necro, basically solidifying that the only time we’ll be used is for solo content within raids, if that happens to be a thing.

Hopefully the base changes come around and fix this somehow, but I just don’t see how we’ll be wanted at this point. Not only do we not play well as far as offensively buffing our allies, but at this point our allies can’t even help us with entire builds in some cases.

Couldn’t agree more. We are becoming the PERFECT SELFISH character in a multiplayer game based on teamwork…. simply and plain wrong approach.

We should at least get a 10% of healing received through shrouds if they are afraid of opness, and change that value based on the feedback it gets.

Or make it PvE only if the concern is about making us unkillable in WvW/PvP. But it has to happen in some form.

What I’d like to see is:
-Baseline healing in shroud, with ~50% effectiveness.
-Some GM trait in Blood Magic which ups that to 100 or 125%
-See utility CD’s in shroud

I don’t understand why this hasn’t happened already :<

Holl.3109:

What I’d like to see is:
-Baseline healing in shroud, with ~50% effectiveness.
-Some GM trait in Blood Magic which ups that to 100 or 125%
-See utility CD’s in shroud

I don’t understand why this hasn’t happened already :<

They could also make heal skills restore LF instead and then make utilities actually castable in shroud. Not that this will ever happen ._.

NEED HEALS IN SHROUD!!!!

Also make parasitic contagion heal in shroud!

Reaper is designed to be in shroud as long as possible. If you reduce the ability to stay in shroud for extended periods, you effectively shoot reaper in the foot.

I like the idea of banking all healing gained while in Death Shroud (up to a maximum of your total HP) and then gaining it as true HP over, say, 5 seconds upon exiting Death Shroud. This way, the Necro will still be able to benefit from healing but we won’t become unkillable sustain tanks with no moments of weakness. We’d be vulnerable upon leaving Death Shroud but we also wouldn’t kitten off our healers.

Holl.3109:

What I’d like to see is:
-Baseline healing in shroud, with ~50% effectiveness.
-Some GM trait in Blood Magic which ups that to 100 or 125%
-See utility CD’s in shroud

I don’t understand why this hasn’t happened already :<

Let me fix that for you:

- 100% unrestricted healing from all sources at all times work though shroud.
- See utility CD’s in shroud

Really, anything less than 100% makes no sense and would just overcomplicate things.

Saw that stronghold match and Noscoc was getting trained to the ground right and left.

I don’t understand how people can say the necromancer shouldn’t be able to heal or use utilities in death shroud.

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Flumek.9043:

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

For the sake of trolling, it has nothing to do with bad design. There’s 2 things you should work for/on:
- trust issues with your teammates.
- l2p issue: only enter shroud when you’re full health.

And voilà!

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Couldn’t aggree more.

(sarcasm)
At this point… I’m pretty sure they can make the druid heal our life force while in shroud.

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Well flow, IMO 100% baseline would be a tad strong and knowing Anet I doubt they would implant that. Just my opinion…

With my proposal bloodmagic could also see some more use (which could be bad or good depending on how you look at it).

Just my 2 cents m8 no h8

We suggest lower heal numbers on Shrouds because, after 3 years of not implementing it all, chances are that they are seriously afraid of how op we can become if they do it. For me, I will even start at 10-20% healing received in Shroud. It’s better than nothing at all.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

We suggest lower heal numbers on Shrouds because, after 3 years of not implementing it all, chances are that they are seriously afraid of how op we can become if they do it. For me, I will even start at 10-20% healing received in Shroud. It’s better than nothing at all.

I don’t think we’d be OP, because other classes don’t heal our life force. Receiving healing while in Shroud would just make us really awesome when paired with healing support.

Cecilia.5179:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

We suggest lower heal numbers on Shrouds because, after 3 years of not implementing it all, chances are that they are seriously afraid of how op we can become if they do it. For me, I will even start at 10-20% healing received in Shroud. It’s better than nothing at all.

I don’t think we’d be OP, because other classes don’t heal our life force. Receiving healing while in Shroud would just make us really awesome when paired with healing support.

I don’t think it neither, but that does not stands for ArenaNet, that’s the point. So I’d rather have a baby step towards the right direction than no steps at all

Just take Blighter’s Boon and any boon you get heals you while in death shroud. I found with testing reaper if you are in a party giving out decent buffs quickly you are nigh invincible.

Honestly, I do think full healing through Death Shroud would be OP. It could easily lead to situations where the Necro could become literally unkillable.

We already have a lot of durability from our second health bar and we pay dearly for that (no Invulns, very limited Vigor, Block, and Evade access, limited mobility, etc), but it’s still relatively easy to run out of health if you mess up. If we could heal and be healed while in Death Shroud, though, it might be possible for us to heal to full while in DS and then heal our LF back to full before running out of health, looping ad nauseum. That isn’t fair to the other professions and it ultimately wouldn’t be much fun for us, either. Our damage would have to be nerfed to compensate and we’d become unkillable but mostly useless. Even without any damage nerfs, though, unkillability still doesn’t sound like all that much fun to me. I’d rather be able to fail so that success wouldn’t feel empty.

If Anet wants to make dedicated healers a part of the game, however, they have to give us some benefit from healing while in Death Shroud. No way around it. We’ll be total pariahs, even in casual groups, because the healers just won’t want the added headache of trying to predict our DSs. I don’t like the idea of partial healing, either, since it could still lead to the same unkillability as full healing, and it would still be a headache for the healers. That’s why I like the idea of a Healing Bar that would appear above our Life Force when we go into DS. All healing (other than Life Siphons) would go into this Healing Bar and max out when it equals our max health. Upon leaving Death Shroud, the Healing Bar would proceed to empty into our Health Bar at a 1:1 rate over the course of 5 to ten seconds, halting if we re-enter Death Shroud. This way, would would still benefit strongly from healing, healers wouldn’t feel like their efforts were wasted, and our opponents would have the opportunity to take advantage of our moment of weakness upon exiting Death Shroud. It’s a win all around.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Honestly, I do think full healing through Death Shroud would be OP. It could easily lead to situations where the Necro could become literally unkillable.

We already have a lot of durability from our second health bar and we pay dearly for that (no Invulns, very limited Vigor, Block, and Evade access, limited mobility, etc), but it’s still relatively easy to run out of health if you mess up. If we could heal and be healed while in Death Shroud, though, it might be possible for us to heal to full while in DS and then heal our LF back to full before running out of health, looping ad nauseum. That isn’t fair to the other professions and it ultimately wouldn’t be much fun for us, either. Our damage would have to be nerfed to compensate and we’d become unkillable but mostly useless. Even without any damage nerfs, though, unkillability still doesn’t sound like all that much fun to me. I’d rather be able to fail so that success wouldn’t feel empty.

If Anet wants to make dedicated healers a part of the game, however, they have to give us some benefit from healing while in Death Shroud. No way around it. We’ll be total pariahs, even in casual groups, because the healers just won’t want the added headache of trying to predict our DSs. I don’t like the idea of partial healing, either, since it could still lead to the same unkillability as full healing, and it would still be a headache for the healers. That’s why I like the idea of a Healing Bar that would appear above our Life Force when we go into DS. All healing (other than Life Siphons) would go into this Healing Bar and max out when it equals our max health. Upon leaving Death Shroud, the Healing Bar would proceed to empty into our Health Bar at a 1:1 rate over the course of 5 to ten seconds, halting if we re-enter Death Shroud. This way, would would still benefit strongly from healing, healers wouldn’t feel like their efforts were wasted, and our opponents would have the opportunity to take advantage of our moment of weakness upon exiting Death Shroud. It’s a win all around.

+1 million

Blaine Tog.8304:

Honestly, I do think full healing through Death Shroud would be OP. It could easily lead to situations where the Necro could become literally unkillable.

If we could heal and be healed while in Death Shroud, though, it might be possible for us to heal to full while in DS and then heal our LF back to full before running out of health, looping ad nauseum. That isn’t fair to the other professions and it ultimately wouldn’t be much fun for us, either. Our damage would have to be nerfed to compensate and we’d become unkillable but mostly useless. Even without any damage nerfs, though, unkillability still doesn’t sound like all that much fun to me. I’d rather be able to fail so that success wouldn’t feel empty.

If we are able to loop through to death shroud and heal back to 100% health then it means that their offense is too low. It is one of the few advantages off having a finite defense pool. Also have you seen a bunker guard, they can be healed while using a block , aegis, … . So why shoulld it be different when compared to necro?

Tell me how many people would throw their burst against an endure pained warrior, an engineer in elixer S or gear shield, an mesmer when it is distorted or blurry, … ?Tell me how many people go melee against a locust swarm user? How many people keep attacking when spectral armor is up? It is not that they don’t can counter DS they just don’t do it.

EDIT: changed the guard part

make the healing 50% reduced while in ds and make ds not interupt skills

or make direct healing incoming value heal the shroud when you are in shroud.

Tim.6450:

If we are able to loop through to death shroud and heal back to 100% health then it means that their offense is too low.

Too low to kill us, certainly, but not necessarily lower than it should be.

Tim.6450:

Also have you seen a bunker guard, they can be healed while using a block , aegis, … . So why shoulld it be different when compared to necro?

Because they can still run out, plus there are unblockable effects that cut through that. Should unblockable attacks bypass Death Shroud? Should Death Shroud’s cooldown be increased? I don’t think so.

Tim.6450:

Tell me how many people would throw their burst against an endure pained warrior, an engineer in elixer S or gear shield, an mesmer when it is distorted or blurry, … ?

You’re missing my point: a Necro that can heal fully through Death Shroud would lack meaningful moments of weakness. Those Warrior, Engi, and Mesmer builds all have moments of strength when their opponents should hold off attacking, but they also have moments of weakness when their opponents should strike. Skillful play will allow a defender the ability to minimize the time they spend vulnerable, but that time will never go away entirely. That might not be the case sometimes if the Necro could heal fully through Death Shroud.

This isn’t just theoretical, by the way. Necros healed through Death Shroud way back during the beta and they were literally unkillable. I’m talking full teams beating on them and still they wouldn’t die. That’s why Anet is so darn cautious with Necro buffs, and it’s why we need to champion another solution, because we do need a solution, but it can’t be as simple as heals just healing us.

Tim.6450:

Tell me how many people go melee against a locust swarm user? How many people keep attacking when spectral armor is up?

Probably a lot, and they probably get pretty frustrated. That’s without heals going through Death Shroud. Can you imagine how much much more frustrated those people would be if there were literally no good moments for them to attack?

Muchacho.2390:

Knighthonor.4061:

Also I believe we should have a trait that increase toughness while in Shroud, and provides more life force steal on third strike and Skill 4.

We have a trait that increases toughness in shroud (http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Armored_Shroud)…

Excuse me, was talking about Reaper.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Tim.6450:

If we are able to loop through to death shroud and heal back to 100% health then it means that their offense is too low.

Too low to kill us, certainly, but not necessarily lower than it should be.

Tim.6450:

Also have you seen a bunker guard, they can be healed while using a block , aegis, … . So why shoulld it be different when compared to necro?

Because they can still run out, plus there are unblockable effects that cut through that. Should unblockable attacks bypass Death Shroud? Should Death Shroud’s cooldown be increased? I don’t think so.

Next time i will be sure to mention the ones without counterplay like invulnerability, distortion,… .

Tim.6450:

Tim.6450:

Tell me how many people would throw their burst against an endure pained warrior, an engineer in elixer S or gear shield, an mesmer when it is distorted or blurry, … ?

You’re missing my point: a Necro that can heal fully through Death Shroud would lack meaningful moments of weakness. Those Warrior, Engi, and Mesmer builds all have moments of strength when their opponents should hold off attacking, but they also have moments of weakness when their opponents should strike. Skillful play will allow a defender the ability to minimize the time they spend vulnerable, but that time will never go away entirely. That might not be the case sometimes if the Necro could heal fully through Death Shroud.

This isn’t just theoretical, by the way. Necros healed through Death Shroud way back during the beta and they were literally unkillable. I’m talking full teams beating on them and still they wouldn’t die. That’s why Anet is so darn cautious with Necro buffs, and it’s why we need to champion another solution, because we do need a solution, but it can’t be as simple as heals just healing us.

Death shroud is not a moment of strength because it is still advantageous to attack the necro. By your definition it is a moment of weakness.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Tim.6450:

Tell me how many people go melee against a locust swarm user? How many people keep attacking when spectral armor is up?

Probably a lot, and they probably get pretty frustrated. That’s without heals going through Death Shroud. Can you imagine how much much more frustrated those people would be if there were literally no good moments for them to attack?

That’s because they are attacking in a necro’s moment of strength. Imagine a skill that heals for the same amount of damage taken. The moment of strength is when the skill is up. Now imagine the heals being delayed. When is the moment of strength (= the moment the opponent shouldn’t attack) when the skill is up or the moment when healing comes? I would say when the skill is up. Spectral armor is just like that just life force instead of healing.

Tim.6450:

Next time i will be sure to mention the ones without counterplay like invulnerability, distortion,… .

The counterplay to those is to wait them out. You then have the duration of their cooldown (typically pretty long) to fight back. They also almost always self-silence, preventing the user from counterattacking while Invulnerable.

Tim.6450:

Death shroud is not a moment of strength because it is still advantageous to attack the necro. By your definition it is a moment of weakness.

No, it’s a moment of strength because a) Death Shroud skills are pretty good overall, and b) you cannot be killed without burning through Death Shroud first, barring specific environmental or mob effects. Dealing damage to Life Force is beneficial in a small way for an opponent, but only because it hastens the moment when the Necro becomes killable again. Opponents would vastly prefer to attack a Necro’s Health.

The intended moment of weakness for Necros is immediately after they leave Death Shroud, when they don’t have Death Shroud available.

Nyth.3492:

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Phoenix.2650:

Nyth.3492:

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

Look, guys, the simple fact of the matter is that we’re not gonna get full healing through Death Shroud. We’re just not. Partial healing isn’t all that much more likely either (frankly, I was surprised and delighted that ANet deigned to let our life siphons heal us in DS). We’ve gotta learn to accept that and proceed to think up other solutions. I think mine’s pretty fair but I’d be interested to hear other options as well. Clamouring for full healing through DS is just a total waste of time, though.

If this is a big enough problem, I propose two solutions.

Allow healing in death shroud.

Convert incoming healing into life force while death shroud is active.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Phoenix.2650:

Nyth.3492:

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

Look, guys, the simple fact of the matter is that we’re not gonna get full healing through Death Shroud. We’re just not. Partial healing isn’t all that much more likely either (frankly, I was surprised and delighted that ANet deigned to let our life siphons heal us in DS). We’ve gotta learn to accept that and proceed to think up other solutions. I think mine’s pretty fair but I’d be interested to hear other options as well. Clamouring for full healing through DS is just a total waste of time, though.

I’m with you in the full healing being futile but on the bright side, even if it doesn’t happen the more sources of healing we can get in DS the better. I keep saying this, DS needs to stop being our second health and start being our other health bar. And considering what the just recently did to mallyx (Grenth rest it’s soul) we may now have a better chance.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Phoenix.2650:

Nyth.3492:

flow.6043:

Drazerg.8956:

Flumek.9043:

Yup, i really dont know why ot even has to exist.

Just yesterday my 2 supportbots blew 10k+ heals on me, but seems devs think that with 2k hp and under focus fire is wrong time to enter your only defense mechanic.

^This

In all seriousness, reduce heal receive effectiveness while In DS by 50% and it should be fine.

Why 50%? Guys, please stop suggesting that, it makes no sense at all. Any kind of reduced healing in Shroud is just as bad as having non at all.

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

Look, guys, the simple fact of the matter is that we’re not gonna get full healing through Death Shroud. We’re just not. Partial healing isn’t all that much more likely either (frankly, I was surprised and delighted that ANet deigned to let our life siphons heal us in DS). We’ve gotta learn to accept that and proceed to think up other solutions. I think mine’s pretty fair but I’d be interested to hear other options as well. Clamouring for full healing through DS is just a total waste of time, though.

I think most of us know that in practice we won’t get 100% healing in Shroud but it’s interesting to speculate.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Phoenix.2650:

Nyth.3492:

Agreed. 50% is nonsense. Why should we suffer for using our class mechanic. We’re all talking about as if it’s OP, but it’s our class mechanic.

I think that the healing over time idea is the best idea I’ve seen floating around though. Getting full instantly applied healing while in DS can produce some balance issue (for PvP mostly).

Also healing life force is NOT what we want.

Agreed. Let’s keep in mind that Shroud degenerates over time and isn’t always full when engaging in a fight, across all game types. Comparing Shroud directly to a second health bar and hence suggesting <100% external healing effectiveness, while in Shroud, is not fully justified.

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

You are refering to the beta before game release, I assume? That was more than 3 years ago, not only did people not know how to play back then, but the game is completely different now. The “but in beta…” is a rediculous argument to bring into any discussion today.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Look, guys, the simple fact of the matter is that we’re not gonna get full healing through Death Shroud. We’re just not. Partial healing isn’t all that much more likely either (frankly, I was surprised and delighted that ANet deigned to let our life siphons heal us in DS). We’ve gotta learn to accept that and proceed to think up other solutions. I think mine’s pretty fair but I’d be interested to hear other options as well. Clamouring for full healing through DS is just a total waste of time, though.

Don’t say that!

First of all, you and everyone else stating that healing through Shroud would be op is wrong, simple as that. You are hugely overestimating the impact that would have on actual fights.

Secondly, wishing for it is absolutely legitimate and we must have a discussion about it.

In case you don’t remember, Robert Gee said in the preview for the June specialization rework that they would be allowing BM siphons to work through Shroud for now and expand on more healing if necessary.
Well, it is necessary!
Not only would unrestricted healing be a QoL improvment for team coordination, but the lack of it is one of the big issues that are holding back necros in any pvp environment.

As for whatever crazy outlier scenario you can come up with where 4 ranger celestial avatars are heal spamming a single reaper or whatever: any other class can do this already!
Seriously, anyone attempting to justify this clear design flaw of our main defense is simply ignorant of the fact that other classes can reap the full benefits of any source of healing at all times while using their (sometimes superior) defensive mechanics.

The only legitimate approach to defusing the tankyness of Shroud combined with more healing would be to fix the 50% damage reduction. Currently this bug means that the life force pool of a necro without Soul Reaping is effectively 138% of their regular hp, and a necro with Soul Reaping: 158.7%.
So if they fixed that damage reduction they could adjust the regular amount of life force to be an even 100%, so 115% with SR. Basically, this would reduce our current lf pool by ~28%, and to compensate we could get all healing unlocked.

Blaine Tog.8304:

No, it’s a moment of strength because a) Death Shroud skills are pretty good overall, and b) you cannot be killed without burning through Death Shroud first, barring specific environmental or mob effects. Dealing damage to Life Force is beneficial in a small way for an opponent, but only because it hastens the moment when the Necro becomes killable again. Opponents would vastly prefer to attack a Necro’s Health.

The intended moment of weakness for Necros is immediately after they leave Death Shroud, when they don’t have Death Shroud available.

I disagree on point a. Death shroud’s skills are terrible, they do good damage (if you are not interrupted and your LB are not sidestepped), but they have little to none utility. Reaper shroud should have made clear to everyone how poorly designed is our DS skill set. DS is just buying time while dealing some damage hoping the fight turns in your favor, in RS you can chain you skills for greater effects thanks to combo field and finishers and you have enough utility to enact some strategy to gain the upper hand.

Quarktastic.1027:

If this is a big enough problem, I propose two solutions.

Allow healing in death shroud.

Convert incoming healing into life force while death shroud is active.

This would be mechanically balanced but I suspect healers would still find it frustrating. Though I wouldn’t be surprised to see Anet go this direction, I hope they come up with something better.

TheLastNobody.8319:

I keep saying this, DS needs to stop being our second health and start being our other health bar.

I’m not sure I follow. What do you mean?

flow.6043:

Blaine Tog.8304:

Except that’s exactly what happened during the beta, which is why the devs removed healing in Death Shroud in the first place.

You are refering to the beta before game release, I assume? That was more than 3 years ago, not only did people not know how to play back then, but the game is completely different now. The “but in beta…” is a rediculous argument to bring into any discussion today.

You may find it ridiculous, but I very much doubt the devs do. Their memories are long.

flow.6043:

Don’t say that!

First of all, you and everyone else stating that healing through Shroud would be op is wrong, simple as that. You are hugely overestimating the impact that would have on actual fights.

Simply stating something doesn’t make it true.

I think it’s pretty clear that we’re at an impasse here.

flow.6043:

The only legitimate approach to defusing the tankyness of Shroud combined with more healing would be to fix the 50% damage reduction. Currently this bug means that the life force pool of a necro without Soul Reaping is effectively 138% of their regular hp, and a necro with Soul Reaping: 158.7%.
So if they fixed that damage reduction they could adjust the regular amount of life force to be an even 100%, so 115% with SR. Basically, this would reduce our current lf pool by ~28%, and to compensate we could get all healing unlocked.

At absolute best, all this would do is cripple our tankiness in scenarios without significant healing — so, everywhere except the raid and sPvP with a coordinated team. It’s totally possible for the devs to nerf Death Shroud’s base mechanics hard enough so that healing through it wouldn’t result in infinite survival, but why in the world would we want them to turn DS into tissue paper? The Zerker meta isn’t actually going anywhere, not unless Anet goes back and rebalances all past content to enforce a soft trinity, which I very much doubt they plan to do.

Charblaze.6958:

I disagree on point a. Death shroud’s skills are terrible, they do good damage (if you are not interrupted and your LB are not sidestepped), but they have little to none utility. Reaper shroud should have made clear to everyone how poorly designed is our DS skill set. DS is just buying time while dealing some damage hoping the fight turns in your favor, in RS you can chain you skills for greater effects thanks to combo field and finishers and you have enough utility to enact some strategy to gain the upper hand.

Reaper’s Shroud is indeed very good (and will be better once the Axe has 900 range) but I do think you’re giving Death Shroud short shrift. The damage is pretty good, the AoE Vulnerability stacking is good, 3 is amazing for clutch situations, 5 is really strong CC, and 4 can be traited to heal allies while teleporting multiple downed allies out of AoEs. 2 would be better if it weren’t so slow that you could just walk to your target by the time it reaches them, but the others are really strong. A lot of builds specialize in staying in Death Shroud as much as possible just because it has so much going for it.

If Necro cannot heal in DS, at least make heals refill the LF bar. I hate missing heals. It happens in PvE a lot, too. I end up res’ing players while in DS. They come out of downed state, get topped off, first thing, and I have to disengage to find a place to heal myself.

It is strange how Necro is the last to get downed but still gets low on health or downed while the rest of the group’s heals are on cool-down. Have you ever noticed this in PvE? A boss’ major AoE takes a big bite out of the group health, the Necro survives and kites the mob by itself while the rest of the party heals up. Then, there are no heals left for the Necromancer. Being out of sync with group heal cycles is not fun.

Necromancer should have a skill that steals a bit of health from nearby group members with > 50% health on exiting DS.

For general grouping mechanics, it would be great if the icons of players in trouble blinked with a red halo. It is easy to completely miss giving a heal to players low on health if their status bar is out of the conic area comprising the eye’s fovea.

Charblaze.6958:

I disagree on point a. Death shroud’s skills are terrible, they do good damage (if you are not interrupted and your LB are not sidestepped)

Clearly, you don’t use death shroud very often or you would know that life blast is impossible to sidestep.

Heck, you can’t even juke it with shadowsteps. Life Blast and Dark Path will both turn 90 degrees or more to hit their target. They’re more accurate than the best guided missiles in the world.

Also, Flow, now that we have a bit more healing in death shroud and with Reaper incoming, I can say with absolute certainty that unrestricted healing in death shroud would be horrendously OP. Even just with adding siphons to what can heal us, Necro survivability jumped pretty significantly when running blood magic. Blighter’s Boon has already been catching complaints about how tanky it makes us.

If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?

Yeah, I’m glad that most of the people posting in this forum aren’t game developers. Claiming that full healing through Shrouds would not be OP is just plain wrong as Drarnor pointed out.
I know that you guys want to get healing on Shroud, as do I and every necromancer out there. But doing so without any restrictions will result in an epic outcry of the other professions because it would make us virtually unkillable with the right support teammate behind us.
And I’m leaving out of this discussion the suggestions like “make our utilities usable in Shrouds” on purpose. Full healing through shroud + siphons + Blighter’s Boon + utilities that can heal your HP bar and provide you more life force = most OP class ever seen in a MMO.

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?

Yeah, I’m glad that most of the people posting in this forum aren’t game developers. Claiming that full healing through Shrouds would not be OP is just plain wrong as Drarnor pointed out.
I know that you guys want to get healing on Shroud, as do I and every necromancer out there. But doing so without any restrictions will result in an epic outcry of the other professions because it would make us virtually unkillable with the right support teammate behind us.
And I’m leaving out of this discussion the suggestions like “make our utilities usable in Shrouds” on purpose. Full healing through shroud + siphons + Blighter’s Boon + utilities that can heal your HP bar and provide you more life force = most OP class ever seen in a MMO.

I’d argue D/D ele would still be more op

Jokes aside, I agree it would be too strong. However, it still needs to happen in some way with a lot of adjustments to make it work. Half the healing done, change the healing to replenish x% LF while in shroud etc. I mean, seriously, every kitten profession under a stronger defensive mechanic like block or invuln can be healed and use all their skills.
Alternatively they need to give us Deathshroud skills 6-0 (And healing STILL would need to have some form of effect).

Shiki.7148:

Ithir Darkleaf.7923:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

If heals of less than 150 are doing that, what do you think heals of 3k+ would do?

Yeah, I’m glad that most of the people posting in this forum aren’t game developers. Claiming that full healing through Shrouds would not be OP is just plain wrong as Drarnor pointed out.
I know that you guys want to get healing on Shroud, as do I and every necromancer out there. But doing so without any restrictions will result in an epic outcry of the other professions because it would make us virtually unkillable with the right support teammate behind us.
And I’m leaving out of this discussion the suggestions like “make our utilities usable in Shrouds” on purpose. Full healing through shroud + siphons + Blighter’s Boon + utilities that can heal your HP bar and provide you more life force = most OP class ever seen in a MMO.

I’d argue D/D ele would still be more op

Jokes aside, I agree it would be too strong. However, it still needs to happen in some way with a lot of adjustments to make it work. Half the healing done, change the healing to replenish x% LF while in shroud etc. I mean, seriously, every kitten profession under a stronger defensive mechanic like block or invuln can be healed and use all their skills.
Alternatively they need to give us Deathshroud skills 6-0 (And healing STILL would need to have some form of effect).

Yeah, I agree with you as well. Not having any form of allied healing work with our only defensive mechanic is bad desing. Period. And it will be only worse when this new type of support focused on full heals hits live. It’s bad for both necromancers and other players, because if you are a necro chances are that they don’t want you on their teams (as usual) and if you manage to be in a group, the healer can’t actually heal you when you are using your defensive mechanic, that is, when you are in the most need of heals.

ds have a 50% sometimes 38% damage reduction make it apply to healing 50% healing reduction while on ds or split the healing to give 50% lf instead of the full heal, 1000 heal would be 500 hp and 500 lf.

Blaine Tog.8304:

It’s totally possible for the devs to nerf Death Shroud’s base mechanics hard enough so that healing through it wouldn’t result in infinite survival, but why in the world would we want them to turn DS into tissue paper?

I’d like to say “agree to disagree…” but at this point I’m having a really hard time taking you seriously.
The only way our Shroud would retain its current tankyness when combined with healing is when you nerf it into a tissue paper?
Are we playing the same class? Or even the same game??
You know, this is the gw2 forum… it’s about guild wars… just an fyi in case you got lost and ended up here somehow.

In an actual pvp match, the only way to survive an outnumbered fight indefinitely is when you’re up against bad opponents, this will not change if you add a little more healing. Yes, I said a little more, because that’s all it is. Going into Shroud will not automatically shower you with Healing Mists and waterfield blasts. The only thing access to full healing will change is the occasional 1-2k healing skill from an ally that would otherwise be wasted, maybe some more regeneration ticks and some projectile or whirl finisher siphons. Not more.
And no, that special team you’re thinking of that could heal-spam a necro in DS to be “immortal” doesn’t exist. And even if it did, guess what: other classes would do even better.

Blaine Tog.8304:

Reaper’s Shroud is indeed very good (and will be better once the Axe has 900 range) but I do think you’re giving Death Shroud short shrift. The damage is pretty good, the AoE Vulnerability stacking is good, 3 is amazing for clutch situations, 5 is really strong CC, and 4 can be traited to heal allies while teleporting multiple downed allies out of AoEs. 2 would be better if it weren’t so slow that you could just walk to your target by the time it reaches them, but the others are really strong. A lot of builds specialize in staying in Death Shroud as much as possible just because it has so much going for it.

I said DS is good damage my complaint is the lack of utility that allows you to enact tactics to gain the upper hand outside of plain damage and buying time. And nope, the traited vuln, heal and teleport don’t count: I’m talking of the base skill set and those traits are available to Reaper Shroud too. Tainted Shackles is the worst offender. If it was chill/immobilize or torment/fear I would understand, but torment/immobilize is kitten wrong. Only Doom has real utility. Even aquatic shroud is much better, skills 1-4 have a clear synergy even though it lacks the combo field-finishers of RS.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Clearly, you don’t use death shroud very often or you would know that life blast is impossible to sidestep.

Heck, you can’t even juke it with shadowsteps. Life Blast and Dark Path will both turn 90 degrees or more to hit their target. They’re more accurate than the best guided missiles in the world.

I’ve definitely seen my LB missing every now and then at 900+ range with fast moving targets. I trust your necro’s mechanics minutiae knowledge, so maybe it was lag or targeting loss. :-/

Blain, flow is probably correct. Necromancer is so difficult to balance and design because of DS that changing anything about the profession mechanics could cause a total rework the profession. The dev’s would rather make small adjustments and so will resist any change that cascades into other changes.