Guild Wars 2

I am not a new player. But I am happy to admit that I am more than a complete newb when it comes to winning fights.

I would like to rectify this somewhat, but I have a problem in that I can’t target my enemy. Thieves are a nightmare since once I have targeted them (no mean feat in and of itself), they then dispose of my target and I am again floundering around dropping marks and hoping to spot one if they hit it. At some point my health drops by half and then he teleports about 2 miles away before I can react. Repeat once more and that “fight” life is over. That’s pretty much every thief fight.

Similarly, with mesmer, if I see one, I try to run away – but with no swiftness or teleport and only one leap that isn’t always available (Reaper Shroud #2), I really struggle with movement.

The fight with a mesmer is always the same: Try to pop clones before they get close. Have a vague idea which one the mesmer is (the one at the back) and then discover he is a clone too when he pops. Then die.

I am certain I am not alone. This happens to loads of other players, I see it every day.

Why does Arenanet insist that these classes are ok? What do you do to beat them? Is it really a matter of learning every single class and spec in the game even if I don’t want to play them?

power or condi mesmer can 100-0 any necro with enough CD and especially if he catches you just a tiny bit off guard or with anets fantastic zero lifeforce design.
deal with it, write a whine post, respawn, repeat.

Same with thief.
You should NOT be wining a duel against a competent thief. It takes longer though, usually at least to 20s to 2nd steal and you can instantly force a decap. You WILL die tho in 15s, just mentioning.

the trick is to
a) know enemy combos and rythm, and try to interupt it. precast and hope he doesnt double dodge, its RNG.
b) positioning does wonders, just standing on edge of weird rock prevents 180º of their maneuvarability. dropping aoes under your feet also gives you breathing time
c) transfer weakness, dont attack if hes spamming daze, let him shot 2-3 times then attack back or else youll eat 10k if interupts.
d) hug a teammate and his aoe fields
e) let your teammate rev/thief attack him after he wastes energy on you

bonus, if its staff thief try runing forwards away, you often get out of his aoe, helps if you avoid 2×8k just by walking.

else its common old complain everybody has. poeple thought the sustain proffesion would he some healing so it could live and win with time like scrapper. necro is always a dps, never bruiser/tank or support, just depends how glassy you go.

In PvP it always is a matter of knowing what every class can do, otherwise you will lose. It’s always like that, no matter the game.
For thieves it helps having a feeling as to when they’re going to attack out of stealth and countering by going into shroud or messing with them otherwise. Fear them with your shroud, keep them a bit at bay… and if you’re condi, which I assume you are, autoattack them with your scepter. The average thief won’t have many condi cleanses and if you put condi pressure on them they will quickly crumble, the auto attack does this nicely.
For mesmers, the most important things to dodge are his shatters really. Since you have a staff and hopefully run Soul Reaping, your marks go through blocks, use that.
Also, most importantly, learn from your mistakes. Ask yourself “what could I have done better” “what major mistake did I just do to get destroyed all of a sudden” etc., your post makes it sound like you do not do this as it seems you’re repeating the same mistakes over and over again.

Other than that there’s probably necros here who are more focused on pvp than I am, so I’m sure they can give you further assistance.

• Don’t use skills if they are using Headshot at a distance.
• Stand on a ledge and lay down a mark, or attack with dagger/gs to see if the thief is right next to you.
• Walk away when using Reaper Shroud 5, then immediately turn 180 degrees to surprise the thief.
• Only use low cast time skills.

If the enemy thief is good, you can’t kill him in 1vs1, not even from years. To kill a thief is better the Death Shroud than reaper Shroud for the istant fear and take him down with two high direct damage AA hit, but for all the other situation the Reaper is way better.

If he’s taking the fight too easy why you’re a necro you can surprise him with timing your fear skills on his dodge.
if he’s a full dodge thief, your chance of victory are even smaller, but if he’s not you can have a chance.

Timing, fast skills and surprise him in some manner.

Good luck.

Against thieves, u need curses or he has the upper hand. Against mesms, u need to know which one is the clone to start with, if youre struggling with that you will unlikely win, try to focus on what is doing every clone and you’ll spot the mesm easily

Flumek.9043:

power or condi mesmer can 100-0 any necro …

Same with thief.
You should NOT be wining a duel against a competent thief.
…

I’m surprised to see you say this.

I won’t argue that necros are easy targets in team fights for high burst class like thieves or mesmers, or other unfavorable circumstances like starting without life force.

However, in a straight up 1v1 on even skills there’s absolute no chance a thief could have the upper hand against a necro. It’s a more even fight against mesmers, but still necros have the advantage in this matchup.

@Svarty, it seems what you need most is practice in a sterile environment like a guild arena. Lots of duel repetitions, lots feedback on your mistakes in game, rather than vague and general advice here on the forum.

Want easy win against 90% of most Thieves? Run MM build, granted you will be useless against almost every other class…..

Pick up a thief and try to play it instead of complaining about it at every given opportunity. Trust me it’s a fun class as long as it isn’t the brain dead condi traps/DB spam

You wont beat the real thief mains on necro in wvw so no need to feel bad but at least you will stand a chance against the bads and average thief players.

flow.6043:

Flumek.9043:

power or condi mesmer can 100-0 any necro …

Same with thief.
You should NOT be wining a duel against a competent thief.
…

I’m surprised to see you say this.

I won’t argue that necros are easy targets in team fights for high burst class like thieves or mesmers, or other unfavorable circumstances like starting without life force.

However, in a straight up 1v1 on even skills there’s absolute no chance a thief could have the upper hand against a necro. It’s a more even fight against mesmers, but still necros have the advantage in this matchup.

@Svarty, it seems what you need most is practice in a sterile environment like a guild arena. Lots of duel repetitions, lots feedback on your mistakes in game, rather than vague and general advice here on the forum.

Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.

Thief has every tool needed to stop a necro dead in its tracks, even the more risky thief builds like D/D.

Extremely high burst potential, high mobility, stealth and easy reset potential all run circles around necro, who doesn’t have high burst, any mobility, and can’t reset a fight that’s not going well for it.

No amount of starting life force will help you either, because all a thief has to do is kite the reaper shroud, or interrupt everything normal shroud tries to do for massive pulm damage.

D/P thief has all the necessary tools in that set alone to deal with necro from easy stealth access, high damage gap closer and on demand interrupts, MM makes this more annoying, but steal just bypasses the body blocking

CutesySylveon.8290:

Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.

Hate to say it, but l2p…

flow.6043:

CutesySylveon.8290:

Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.

Hate to say it, but l2p…

Hate to say it, but he’s right.

Menzies The Heretic.3415:

flow.6043:

CutesySylveon.8290:

Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.

Hate to say it, but l2p…

Hate to say it, but he’s right.

Except… he isn’t!

Yo flow.

The way I estimate it under perfect duel scenarios, is a rough 50/50.
On high end esl thiefs should win, where lower its more possible for thief to die at first mistake.

But then, like you said, in real match – the conditions are almost always against necro.
-low lifeforce = lose
-missing CDs or HP = thiefs favor his CDs are lower, 15s for initiative and 20s for steal
-holding node = you will decap 100% , but again
a) he can wear you down in reasonable 1min time
b) he has mindgame, you only guess = stealth, then you either stay behind on lose time, follow into vulnerable offpoint area, or exit shroud thinking its safe…BOOM.
c) any 2v1 for even 5-10seconds can instadown you , so even if teammates follow they need to REALLY follow fast or start 2v2 with a rezz.

Im seeing more winning choices on thiefs side. Or at least how nemesis said 4 years ago, “the choice to either win or not lose”.
So from a 1v1 standpoint youre on losing side, but your teammates can cover and beat thief. Necros job is staying alive long enough for teammates to catch thief, then rally of him

Mesmers are easier than thieves at the moment, but neither are invincible. I find berserkers and druids far more challenging, at least in wvw.

Mesmer’s clones are very susceptible to wells. The trick with mesmer is to find the real one. The real one is very weak to conditions or spike damage from shroud.

Thieves can chain cloak, but unless they’re the venom variety I can’t get worried about them. I find marks and wells are good area denial, as well as your favorite boon corruption or removal.

It might be that I play base necro though. Reaper shroud’s melee orientation is a liability against classes you can’t target quickly. Life Blast is surprisingly strong, especially if you add spike damage from things like sigil of air, fire, or blood.

you don’t

/15characters

You guys don’t play this game please dont say dumb stuff you know nothing about. first step in fighting anybody 1v1 is first learning your class mechanically then know how the others work. Second to address the mesmer comment its no longer 2012-2014 mesmer vs necro is determind who is better. Mesmer does not auto counter mesmer or anything for that matter kill yoself clown.

flow.6043:

I’m surprised to see you say this.
However, in a straight up 1v1 on even skills there’s absolute no chance a thief could have the upper hand against a necro. It’s a more even fight against mesmers, but still necros have the advantage in this matchup.

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats. I picked up thief a while ago but started (trying) to play it properly 2 days ago and even in that short amount of time, necros are generally np unless I get too impatient and yolo into reaper’s shroud. It’s just so simple – burst, kite around shroud (or just damage it down if they have a very low amount of LF), headshot heal, burst, rinse, repeat. Get caught off guard? Port away, stealth, heal, start again. A necro cannot catch a thief, especially since the Dash dodge removes chill, our supposed way of slowing enemies enough to keep up with them (brilliant balancing Anet, bravo)

@OP In terms of fighting thief, if they’re good then there’s unfortunately a very high chance that you’re not going to win the fight. Either you somehow survive or they just wait out all of your skills and kill you. All you can do about that is hope and pray for good balancing that will never come. However, there are some things that can be helpful to know (from my experience) Off the top of my head:
-If you run staff, don’t spam all your marks on top or around you. All it takes is one dodge (of which thief has plenty) and all your marks are wasted. Use them wisely. Putrid mark can hit pretty hard if you’re zerker, as well as transferring any condis you may have, and the fear mark can be a good way of interrupting or stopping a burst, providing they don’t dodge it. I find the bleed mark a good way of forcing out dodges, and when they proc (regardless of whether they dodged it or not) it’s a good way of seeing where the thief might potentially be
-If you run GS then good luck, although I have beaten thieves with it before. I mainly used the blindfield as a brief period of respite and also when they stealthed up to negate a potential burst. The pull can be pretty awesome but is easy to see. You probably won’t hit gravedigger but when you do, it’ll be worth it (especially if they’re under half health)
-When it comes to reaper shroud, Executioner’s Scythe can make for a pretty solid lockdown, as well as the huge potential damage depending on the thief’s health. If I know they don’t have a stunbreak ready and I hit it, I’ll usually follow with shroud 4 to apply poison + damage or auto attack
-Also, if you’re running Blighter’s Boon and Spite then you can regen a rather kitten amount of health by auto attacking in shroud, as well as stacking might at the same time. However, be careful of interrupts if they’re running Pulmonary Impact
-Overall, if you’re a zerker necro then remember that you do deal a lot of damage to thieves. They’re generally very squishy and almost everything you do will hurt, especially shroud auto attack
(1/2)

cont. -Regarding D/P thieves: Lots of them will usually put down a black powder, heartseeker into it and then steal 1-2s later + try to backstab. This can be very predictable, especially at the start of a fight, and if you dodge the steal then there’s an important skill on a ~20s cd. Also, in a fight try to place marks or damage onto the black powder (but be careful of the blinds it applies) – this will make stealthing up without accidentally hitting you more difficult, and you might also be hitting them in the meantime.
-If they run the bound dodge instead of dash then it’s a little easier as they can’t clear chill on dodge, screwing up their movement and skill cds. However, bear in mind that bound deals damage and can deal up to 4-5k (in my experience at least). If they play D/P then they’ll use bound to stack stealth by dodging into the field – place marks or attack around it and hope they accidentally reveal themselves.
-It’s also possible to engage by using shadow shot and spamming weapon stow so that the damage doesn’t go off, leaving them invis, behind you and ready to backstab. If you get blinded with no damage then that is possibly what’s happened – keep moving or dodge/use Suffer to hopefully transfer the blind to screw their burst up
-Be careful not to spam skills too much. Pulmonary Impact is one of those brilliant traits that both rewards and punishes spamming. If they spam headshot 2-3 times they’re either very low or out of initiative, which I’d say is a good time to return the favour. Also, if they start using it, don’t continue spamming, you will die. Be careful of when you use your heal as well, as a good thief will try to interrupt it. Something with a long cast time like Consume Conditions is especially vulnerable to interrupt since it also has such an obvious tell, so maybe consider getting stab from shroud first.
-If the thief is spamming heartseeker then you’re in luck, they’re probably bad. However, if you’re low on health then be careful as it can deal a bit of damage.
-If you come across a vault spam thief then chances are they’ll spam 3-4 vaults, waste all their initiative and generally go down like a sack of potatoes, unless they port away. Dodge the vaults, they can hit over 10k. That being said, I haven’t really encountered many vault spam thieves lately, possibly because it’s such a one trick pony build that tends to fail drastically if you’re still fine after the 3rd vault.

In general, I’d recommend you do try out the classes/builds you struggle with, just because I think that there’s no better way of getting experience vs something you struggle with than actually playing that build yourself. You get to see how it works, what it’s like to play, what you need to watch out for when you’re playing that build and that knowledge and experience will help a lot. Don’t get disheartened if you still struggle vs thief, it is a tough encounter for a necro. Good luck!

flow.6043:

CutesySylveon.8290:

Hate to say it, but the opposite is true.

Hate to say it, but l2p…

Perfect comeback.

I’ve mained necro and thief, so I think I know how each of them play, and thief has the upper hand simply by how the class functions; highly mobile with high burst damage, things necro struggles against.

Next time, try giving some counter points to prove someone wrong if you feel they are, instead of just saying l2p. It makes you look like a moron.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats. I picked up thief a while ago but started (trying) to play it properly 2 days ago and even in that short amount of time, necros are generally np unless I get too impatient and yolo into reaper’s shroud. It’s just so simple – burst, kite around shroud (or just damage it down if they have a very low amount of LF), headshot heal, burst, rinse, repeat.

I main thief and necro (~2500 sPvP matches on each class plus hundreds of hours of WvW Roaming).

The meta thief wrecks the meta reaper. True! But there are tons of options if you use your brain. Meta thief loses all of his efficiency if you run Paladin Amulet + Dagger/Warhorn. His attacks tickle you while you autoattack him to death.

Ever heard of Speed of Shadows? Thief ports away when you are in shroud? Just Death’s Charge in the opposite direction and leave shroud! See how he tries to catch up in that small 7 second window you are vulnerable while you are dropping Marks at your feet.

Not to mention Core Power Necro whose Lifeblast 2 shots kiting thieves.

Flumek.9043:

Yo flow.

The way I estimate it under perfect duel scenarios, is a rough 50/50.

Well, I disagree with that estimate, obviously.

Flumek.9043:

But then, like you said, in real match – the conditions are almost always against necro

I wouldn’t say always, but regardless, Svarty in the opening post doesn’t refer to specific situations where you start your fight against thieves with any kind of disadvantage.
So I’m rather shocked how many people here simply dismiss his request for advice, like the mere attempt to improve against thieves is a pointless or impossible endeavor.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

KrHome.1920:

The meta thief wrecks the meta reaper. True! But there are tons of options if you use your brain.
…
Ever heard of Speed of Shadows? Thief ports away when you are in shroud? Just Death’s Charge in the opposite direction and leave shroud! See how he tries to catch up in that small 7 second window you are vulnerable while you are dropping Marks at your feet.

I would never advise anyone to take Speed of Shadows over Soul Marks. Unless they don’t have a staff, but I’d also never advise against using a staff especially against thieves.
Also, your scenario involves mark-dropping so apparently there is a staff.

Anyway, I agree with your general notion. The choice of traits, utilities and gear have a huge impact on dueling thieves. I can’t confirm that thief wrecks the current necro meta build, but there are certainly ways to improve your chances in this specific 1v1 encounter by making some tweaks.

flow.6043:

I would never advise anyone to take Speed of Shadows over Soul Marks. Unless they don’t have a staff, but I’d also never advise against using a staff especially against thieves.
Also, your scenario involves mark-dropping so apparently there is a staff.

I never use Staff in duells. But Axe/Focus is very hard to master. Until a player gets to that point I would recommend the Staff Marks area of denial strategy.

Versus skilled thieves Staff is way too slow and clunky (I also mentioned that somewhere else in the forum a few weeks ago).

CutesySylveon.8290:

Next time, try giving some counter points to prove someone wrong if you feel they are, instead of just saying l2p. It makes you look like a moron.

Ok, let’s review your earlier comments then…

CutesySylveon.8290:

Thief has every tool needed to stop a necro dead in its tracks, even the more risky thief builds like D/D.

Not sure if this warrents a counter argument yet but it was already enough for me to know that you don’t play your necro to its full potential, most likely because you don’t know how to manage your life force and/or because your build is bad.

CutesySylveon.8290:

Extremely high burst potential, high mobility, stealth and easy reset potential all run circles around necro, who doesn’t have high burst, any mobility, and can’t reset a fight that’s not going well for it.

Thief has high burst potential, yes. But that doesn’t mean he can actually land this damage on your actual health pool if you know how to properly defend yourself.

@necro, the only thing I agree with here is the lack of mobility.
Necros do have high bursts.
And the inability to reset a fight against a thief doesn’t matter. If the thief disengages ooc it resets the fight for you as well. Or did you mean that a thief has better sustain in combat? In that case, that’s not true, and again: change your build and/or l2p.

CutesySylveon.8290:

No amount of starting life force will help you either, because all a thief has to do is kite the reaper shroud, or interrupt everything normal shroud tries to do for massive pulm damage.

Ok, I see where you’re going with this one, but the matter of starting life force in a duel against a thief is only important for the very first attack they try to land on you. This one has to be absorbed by life force otherwise you’re basically starting the fight with half of your hp.
Starting life force isn’t supposed to last you a certain amount of time. After the thief’s initial engagement you need to have proper in combat life force regeneration. If you don’t, change your build. If you can’t, l2p.

CutesySylveon.8290:

D/P thief has all the necessary tools in that set alone to deal with necro from easy stealth access, high damage gap closer and on demand interrupts, MM makes this more annoying, but steal just bypasses the body blocking

I won’t again debunk your anecdotal evidence of what a thief could do to a training golem. But one thing needs to be said here: MM sucks in any kind of PvP environment against any semi competent player and should therefore never be used anyway.

KrHome.1920:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats. I picked up thief a while ago but started (trying) to play it properly 2 days ago and even in that short amount of time, necros are generally np unless I get too impatient and yolo into reaper’s shroud. It’s just so simple – burst, kite around shroud (or just damage it down if they have a very low amount of LF), headshot heal, burst, rinse, repeat.

I main thief and necro (~2500 sPvP matches on each class plus hundreds of hours of WvW Roaming).

The meta thief wrecks the meta reaper. True! But there are tons of options if you use your brain. Meta thief loses all of his efficiency if you run Paladin Amulet + Dagger/Warhorn. His attacks tickle you while you autoattack him to death.

Ever heard of Speed of Shadows? Thief ports away when you are in shroud? Just Death’s Charge in the opposite direction and leave shroud! See how he tries to catch up in that small 7 second window you are vulnerable while you are dropping Marks at your feet.

Not to mention Core Power Necro whose Lifeblast 2 shots kiting thieves.

I should have mentioned this before, but I’m talking specifically about roaming/duelling in WvW. If I remember correctly, I have about 2k PvP matches and a bit more experience roaming than hundreds of hours.
From my experience it’s rare that a thief would use a port like Shadowstep to get away from shroud. That’s a waste of a great skill. They tend to dash away or stealth up and dance around the sides. Therefore in that situation, I don’t think the thief would have a particularly hard time catching up to you, probably dashing through your marks, porting to you once you were out of shroud or just shadowshot once hes in range. Alternatively, even if the thief did take 7s to catch up to you and you went back into shroud, he could simply kite around again/switch to shortbow and kite (you can’t destroy projectiles forever with ds2) and generally keep depleting your life force. Of course it’s easy to theory craft like this and it’s different in a fight, but that’s what I would expect.
I am not saying that a necro vs thief fight is definitely a loss for the necro, but if the thief knows how to play then it’s usually pretty difficult to turn the tide in your favour.

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

It’s almost akin to saying that AP and skill have a direct correlation. To an extent they do, but not entirely. To be honest I’m not entirely sure if you’re trolling or not, but then again I’ve met some very interesting people on these forums, so someone thinking that a necro will have the upper hand over a thief on an even skill level fight doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Actually, no, wait, you’re right. I can see a new playing trying out necro likely winning vs a new player trying out thief, at least until the thief learns how stealth and dodges work.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

It’s almost akin to saying that AP and skill have a direct correlation.

That’s pretty ironic coming from someone who said I’d base my entire dueling experience on fighting trash players.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

To be honest I’m not entirely sure if you’re trolling or not, but then again I’ve met some very interesting people on these forums, so someone thinking that a necro will have the upper hand over a thief on an even skill level fight doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Alright, let’s assume that I’m not trolling. And let’s assume that in my long time of playing necro (which you would know if you weren’t completely new to this forum) I’ve spent a considerable amount of time in WvW and PvP. Wouldn’t it be statistically likely that I’ve come accross really good thieves at least a few times?
Now when I tell you that this infamous unbeatable thief doesn’t exist from my point of view, would you conclude that:
1. I’m being dishonest?
2. I’ve somehow managed to avoid meeting all the good thieves?
3. Or would you consider the possibility that I’ve actually managed to beat every thief, even the good ones, in such a superior manner that I can confidently say: Anyone who fails to do the same has some other problems that aren’t inherent to the respective class.
And if that’s true then either I’m right about necro vs thief, or you’re right but I’ve just out-skilled all the players I should’ve lost to.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

It’s almost akin to saying that AP and skill have a direct correlation. To an extent they do, but not entirely. To be honest I’m not entirely sure if you’re trolling or not, but then again I’ve met some very interesting people on these forums, so someone thinking that a necro will have the upper hand over a thief on an even skill level fight doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Actually, no, wait, you’re right. I can see a new playing trying out necro likely winning vs a new player trying out thief, at least until the thief learns how stealth and dodges work.

Flow knows what he’s talking about, and one of the few Necro’s I’ve spoken with that actually knows how to use Life Force. Which is a depressingly rare find even among people who have played thousands of hours on Necro.

I’m not sure that I 100% agree about Necro having the upper hand against a Thief but I do agree that it’s far less of a one sided thing than some people seem to think.

I also absolutely agree that OP was asking for advice and people basically saying just give up because you won’t win, isn’t true and isn’t going to help. There’s nothing in this game, at least as far as I’m concerned, that 100% hard counters something else. Some fights will be in favor of one thing and not in favor of another but there’s nothing that you just plain won’t beat no matter how good you are.

@ OP, patience is key. When fighting a Thief, don’t spam attacks or go full offensive. Be reactive, study them and save your attacks for openings. Necromancer is slow but it hits like a train, Thief is going to be in a world of hurt with that tiny HP pool if you catch them between their stealths and evades. It’s easier said than done, I know, but in a 1v1, you can afford more mistakes than they can.

Also important to note that Thieves, despite how slippery they are, have very distinct tells and a number of animation lock attacks such as the end of Vault or the beginning of Heartseeker. Learn how to exploit those openings!

One of the best tricks I’ve learned is to counterpressure their heal. This works best against Thieves because much of the time, they use their heal to top off rather than to recover from big hits. After they’ve healed, lay the hurt on them and watch them run for the hills.

Thieves, Mesmers and Engineers are the three classes that perform the best if their maximum potential is reached. They all have amazingly powerful skills that many players won’t ever master. None of these classes are OP, they’re just highly rewarding when their codes have been cracked. You’ll know if you meet one of these, trust me.

Mhh i dont think that matchup is necro favored. But generally no thief plays perfect and is bound to make mistakes. Exploiting those mistakes will allow you to win. So i would agree with flumeks opinion about the thief vs necro match up.

A perfectly played thief shouldnt lose to a necro though since he can always just run away (no matter who good of a necro are you wont be able to stop this).

flow.6043:

CutesySylveon.8290:

Next time, try giving some counter points to prove someone wrong if you feel they are, instead of just saying l2p. It makes you look like a moron.

Ok, let’s review your earlier comments then…

CutesySylveon.8290:

Thief has every tool needed to stop a necro dead in its tracks, even the more risky thief builds like D/D.

Not sure if this warrents a counter argument yet but it was already enough for me to know that you don’t play your necro to its full potential, most likely because you don’t know how to manage your life force and/or because your build is bad.

CutesySylveon.8290:

Extremely high burst potential, high mobility, stealth and easy reset potential all run circles around necro, who doesn’t have high burst, any mobility, and can’t reset a fight that’s not going well for it.

Thief has high burst potential, yes. But that doesn’t mean he can actually land this damage on your actual health pool if you know how to properly defend yourself.

@necro, the only thing I agree with here is the lack of mobility.
Necros do have high bursts.
And the inability to reset a fight against a thief doesn’t matter. If the thief disengages ooc it resets the fight for you as well. Or did you mean that a thief has better sustain in combat? In that case, that’s not true, and again: change your build and/or l2p.

CutesySylveon.8290:

No amount of starting life force will help you either, because all a thief has to do is kite the reaper shroud, or interrupt everything normal shroud tries to do for massive pulm damage.

Ok, I see where you’re going with this one, but the matter of starting life force in a duel against a thief is only important for the very first attack they try to land on you. This one has to be absorbed by life force otherwise you’re basically starting the fight with half of your hp.
Starting life force isn’t supposed to last you a certain amount of time. After the thief’s initial engagement you need to have proper in combat life force regeneration. If you don’t, change your build. If you can’t, l2p.

CutesySylveon.8290:

D/P thief has all the necessary tools in that set alone to deal with necro from easy stealth access, high damage gap closer and on demand interrupts, MM makes this more annoying, but steal just bypasses the body blocking

I won’t again debunk your anecdotal evidence of what a thief could do to a training golem. But one thing needs to be said here: MM sucks in any kind of PvP environment against any semi competent player and should therefore never be used anyway.

This is going to be a pain on mobile.

The builds I used at the time were either meta or slightly modified to something I preferred, so build wasn’t an issue.

It’s not hard landing a hit on the actual life pool when all you have to do is kite shroud, assuming reaper since it’s more common, and either force him to deplete, or steal the moment it drops. (Insert any other thief gap closer over steal if you wish.)

Necro burst amounts to rs5+4 combo, and GD, two of the most telling bursts there could be. So burst? Maybe. Practical? No, not against something with numerous evades and anyone with reflexes. The point being made is that the thief has control of the situation, necro doesn’t. Unless the thief let’s you chip away at him or blows his resources, he has the upper hand to force a necro to act, blowing CDs or going in shroud etc.

The moment shroud pops, run. General rule against a reaper, and with only one leap and no practical means of locking the thief down, like with chill, assuming he runs dash like most do, then you just end up running and draining your meter, and the moment you drop it, necro becomes vulnerable, giving thief an easy opening.

Looking at D/P as a set is not anecdotal evidence. It has the most diverse set of tools at a thief’s disposal, all of which do well against necro.

I’m speaking from the thief fighting necro perspective. So I’m looking at what I needed to do against him.

CutesySylveon.8290:

It’s not hard landing a hit on the actual life pool when all you have to do is kite shroud, assuming reaper since it’s more common, and either force him to deplete, or steal the moment it drops. (Insert any other thief gap closer over steal if you wish.)

A thief can steal every 20 seconds. A reaper can enter shroud every 7 seconds and immediately stunbreak Basilisk Venom (Foot in the Grave).

Necro burst amounts to rs5+4 combo, and GD, two of the most telling bursts there could be.

What are you talking about? I can burst with RS4 (up to 10k), Axe 2 (up to 12k), Dagger 2 (up to 8k) or just autoattack with Dagger (up to 5k/Sec.). Rotating through these burst- and some corruption skills (e.g. RS2, Axe3, Dagger3, Focus5) lets you keep up an enormous amount of pressure.

I rarely use RS5+4 (that combo is for condi builds) and I never use Gravedigger.

The moment shroud pops, run.

Won’t help you vs. a proper reaper build and even less vs. a Core Necro (hard hitting homing ranged attacks).

Look… I still roam with thief from time to time… even if the class sucks these days (not that it is weak, but broken by design). And on my Thief I never lost to a Power Reaper. But I know I would lose to the Power Reaper build I play. Most players run crappy builds.

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

It’s almost akin to saying that AP and skill have a direct correlation.

That’s pretty ironic coming from someone who said I’d base my entire dueling experience on fighting trash players.

When you say that necro has the upper hand against a thief, that is exactly what you are implying. There is no irony here.

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

To be honest I’m not entirely sure if you’re trolling or not, but then again I’ve met some very interesting people on these forums, so someone thinking that a necro will have the upper hand over a thief on an even skill level fight doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Alright, let’s assume that I’m not trolling. And let’s assume that in my long time of playing necro (which you would know if you weren’t completely new to this forum) I’ve spent a considerable amount of time in WvW and PvP. Wouldn’t it be statistically likely that I’ve come accross really good thieves at least a few times?
Now when I tell you that this infamous unbeatable thief doesn’t exist from my point of view, would you conclude that:
1. I’m being dishonest?
2. I’ve somehow managed to avoid meeting all the good thieves?
3. Or would you consider the possibility that I’ve actually managed to beat every thief, even the good ones, in such a superior manner that I can confidently say: Anyone who fails to do the same has some other problems that aren’t inherent to the respective class.
And if that’s true then either I’m right about necro vs thief, or you’re right but I’ve just out-skilled all the players I should’ve lost to.

As I said before, how long you’ve played is not always an indicator of skill. Speaking of what is statistically likely, the possibility you requested I consider is statistically unlikely. Maybe you just have different ideas of what a good thief is based on personal skill level. Of course, you may have had some really successful fights vs good thieves where you you won, but stating that you’ve beaten every thief in such a superior manner is like saying “yeah, I beat Sindreneer/some other skilled thief in a duel” and conveniently omitting all those other times you got farmed. Either way, you haven’t had a stunning victory or even beaten every thief you’ve ever encountered, unless your 1v1 track record is negligible.
Oh well, at least I got a laugh out of you managing to beat every thief, yes, even the good ones, “in such a superior manner”, so thank you for that.

Thanks for the support, SpellOfIniquity.

CutesySylveon.8290:

The builds I used at the time were either meta or slightly modified to something I preferred, so build wasn’t an issue.

I don’t know what time you’re refering to, but necro is a great example for a class that has had very mediocre meta builds over the years.

KrHome.1920:

Most players run crappy builds.

^

Cutesy, I’m not saying you did run such a crappy build, but most people do get their builds from metabattle.

CutesySylveon.8290:

Necro burst amounts to rs5+4 combo, and GD, two of the most telling bursts there could be. So burst? Maybe. Practical? No, not against something with numerous evades and anyone with reflexes.

In case GD means Gravedigger and considering greatsword is absolutely not pvp meta, are you saying that all existing necro builds – meta and non meta – have no other hard hitting skills or combos than RS4/5 and GD?

CutesySylveon.8290:

I’m speaking from the thief fighting necro perspective. So I’m looking at what I needed to do against him.
…
The point being made is that the thief has control of the situation, necro doesn’t.
…
The moment shroud pops, run.
…and the moment you drop it, necro becomes vulnerable, giving thief an easy opening.

I’m starting to see a pattern here.

In your fictional fight the necro has this static set of rotations he goes through and all the thief has to do is wait for the right moment to land a hit.
That’s not true, and neither is your presumption that one player is controlling the fight right from the start.
Necros have to play just as reactively as thieves.
And btw, the way you talk about Shroud makes it sound like not being in it is the equivalent of beim moa-morphed.
Shroud isn’t our only defense. When you drop it you can still dodge, stun or counter pressure to make hitting you impossible or at the very least too risky.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

I’m guessing you don’t play necro. That, or you’ve managed to find yourself some seriously garbage-tier thieves. Congrats.

Or third option: I’ve been playing necro for a long time and I actually know what I’m talking about.

It’s almost akin to saying that AP and skill have a direct correlation. To an extent they do, but not entirely. To be honest I’m not entirely sure if you’re trolling or not, but then again I’ve met some very interesting people on these forums, so someone thinking that a necro will have the upper hand over a thief on an even skill level fight doesn’t even surprise me anymore.

Actually, no, wait, you’re right. I can see a new playing trying out necro likely winning vs a new player trying out thief, at least until the thief learns how stealth and dodges work.

Flow knows what he’s talking about, and one of the few Necro’s I’ve spoken with that actually knows how to use Life Force. Which is a depressingly rare find even among people who have played thousands of hours on Necro.

I’m not sure that I 100% agree about Necro having the upper hand against a Thief but I do agree that it’s far less of a one sided thing than some people seem to think.

I’m afraid he doesn’t. I respect your opinion, but there comes a point where no matter how much you have a right to your opinion, sometimes you’re going to sound silly. Necro does not have the upper hand against a thief when on an even skill level. Thief can harass and shut down a necro just like dh can harass and shut down a thief.
On another note, great ideas I didn’t actually consider waiting for a thief to heal before trying to land a big hit, which is silly because I’ve noticed that a lot of the time thieves use their heals as an extra dodge or endurance replenishment, as well as healing if need be.

NekoNoKoi.9137:

As I said before, how long you’ve played is not always an indicator of skill. Speaking of what is statistically likely, the possibility you requested I consider is statistically unlikely. Maybe you just have different ideas of what a good thief is based on personal skill level. Of course, you may have had some really successful fights vs good thieves where you you won, but stating that you’ve beaten every thief in such a superior manner is like saying “yeah, I beat Sindreneer/some other skilled thief in a duel” and conveniently omitting all those other times you got farmed. Either way, you haven’t had a stunning victory or even beaten every thief you’ve ever encountered, unless your 1v1 track record is negligible.
Oh well, at least I got a laugh out of you managing to beat every thief, yes, even the good ones, “in such a superior manner”, so thank you for that.

Needless to say, I have indeed beat Sindrener and every other popular thief you can think of several times in a 1v1, simply because I’ve played long enough to have encountered all of them lots of times.

But of course, you took what I said to literally mean 100% winrate against every thief ever.
No, obviously I meant that I’ve had arranged duels on several occasions in which I won most fights. Or I had single chance encounters which I also mostly won.
The losses among those fights, however, were never ever because that opponent had a build advantage over me.
In fact, most times I used to hold back my elite skill and sometimes even some more utility skills in addition to that, just so I would even the playing field by giving myself a handicap. And yeah, you’ll probably think again that those opponents must’ve been bad, but they weren’t.

Anyway, it’s your word against mine at this point.
If you still don’t believe me, and if you’re on EU, I’ll gladly take yours or anyone else’s challenge to a duel.

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

As I said before, how long you’ve played is not always an indicator of skill. Speaking of what is statistically likely, the possibility you requested I consider is statistically unlikely. Maybe you just have different ideas of what a good thief is based on personal skill level. Of course, you may have had some really successful fights vs good thieves where you you won, but stating that you’ve beaten every thief in such a superior manner is like saying “yeah, I beat Sindreneer/some other skilled thief in a duel” and conveniently omitting all those other times you got farmed. Either way, you haven’t had a stunning victory or even beaten every thief you’ve ever encountered, unless your 1v1 track record is negligible.
Oh well, at least I got a laugh out of you managing to beat every thief, yes, even the good ones, “in such a superior manner”, so thank you for that.

Needless to say, I have indeed beat Sindrener and every other popular thief you can think of several times in a 1v1, simply because I’ve played long enough to have encountered all of them lots of times.

I’m so glad you lived up to my expectations of just how amusing you would turn out to be.

But of course, you took what I said to literally mean 100% winrate against every thief ever.

No, actually, I accounted for that by suggesting you lost the other times. Obviously. You did say that you’ve beaten every thief you’ve fought though, so I presume you’re either one of those people that won’t stop dueling until they win or you just stalked all the thieves you lost to.

No, obviously I meant that I’ve had arranged duels on several occasions in which I won most fights. Or I had single chance encounters which I also mostly won.
The losses among those fights, however, were never ever because that opponent had a build advantage over me.
In fact, most times I used to hold back my elite skill and sometimes even some more utility skills in addition to that, just so I would even the playing field by giving myself a handicap. And yeah, you’ll probably think again that those opponents must’ve been bad, but they weren’t.

I’m surprised the apparent sheer weight of your ego wasn’t a handicap. Perhaps it’s just the bravado in your writing.

Anyway, it’s your word against mine at this point.
If you still don’t believe me, and if you’re on EU, I’ll gladly take yours or anyone else’s challenge to a duel.

It’s a bit more than just my word against yours. I am not the only one to think you’re wrong. The existence of this thread alone, as well as the replies in it, confirm that. I think you should definitely post a video of you winning in such a superior manner so we may all learn the errors of our ways.

Anyway, as hilarious as this is I don’t want to contribute to derailing the thread even more, it’s always good to share tips. I think I’ve said all I have to say on the matter and if you’d like to say something regarding this, do feel free to message me ingame

NekoNoKoi.9137:

It’s a bit more than just my word against yours. I am not the only one to think you’re wrong.

You’re the only one here who’s being this condescending.

And nothing I’ve said was off topic. You on the other hand started to attack me personally. So when you say “contribute to derailing the thread”, that’s 100% your contribution.

So are you not going to duel me in game?
That’s too bad. But you’d probably lose anyway, I have really high AP after all.

I actually agree with flow, if a necro plays well they definitely have a fair chance in beating an equally skilled thief or, at the very least, force him to retreat before he manages to kill you, which is also a win depending on the situation imo. Thieves have only so many ways to deal with CC and conditions, both necro has a lot of. On top of that, large amounts of our CC don’t even require a target, just a general idea of where our enemy is going to be. Problems arise if you get caught off guard or enter the fight at a huge disadvantage, obviously.

Also, I actually stumbled into flow a few times during season 2, both on my and the enemy team (the necro vs necro 1v1 were extremely fun) and he was indeed putting up quite the fight. Not that it matters much, but I can tell you that he definitely is not a bad player.

flow.6043:

NekoNoKoi.9137:

It’s a bit more than just my word against yours. I am not the only one to think you’re wrong.

You’re the only one here who’s being this condescending.

And nothing I’ve said was off topic. You on the other hand started to attack me personally. So when you say “contribute to derailing the thread”, that’s 100% your contribution.

So are you not going to duel me in game?
That’s too bad. But you’d probably lose anyway, I have really high AP after all.

Like I said, I’m more than happy for you to whisper me in game and we can talk properly. This thread is about how to beat thief, not ways in which thief counters necro.
See you in game o/

Everything depends on build and if they have all cds available, but lets say they are both equal skilled players, a mesmer or a thief should win vs a necro with out much problem they have the upper hand, i say this because necros need to pray for a big mistake from either to win , while thief and mesmer can just impose how the fight goes and even if they make a mistake they just reset.
I do win most of my duels vs thievs and vs mesmers its a 50/50 because of moa.but if we talk about equal skill players then its a diferent story.
And again i say the lack of blocks or invuls and short in life force makes it very hard for a necro to win vs those.

Marks are good for making the thief think twice about shadowstepping into you. The thief generally will not know which mark you used as long as it wasn’t the #3 mark, so if he dodges through your mark of blood and tries to attack you, you can punish him. The only thief you can’t beat is one that plays perfectly, which is maybe one per server, and even then they won’t be perfect every time.

If you’re talking about a Good thief, you will never be able to kill him in 1v1.
If you’re talking about an average/bad thief (like the ones that run around during the daily thief) you can have a chance.

Perma evade, shadow step to you and back to a safe place if in danger, CC you with fear just why they can steal and F1 you, making you show your back to him granting a big hit for free. High burst, CC, stealth.
they don’t need to kill you in a single hit like all the bad thief try to do, just hit, kite, hit, kite, hit, kite and then you’ll die without be able to drop the enemy thief under 50% hp.
Easy.

Prince Vingador.8067:

… a thief should win vs a necro with out much problem

Cecilia.5179:

The only thief you can’t beat is one that plays perfectly, which is maybe one per server, and even then they won’t be perfect every time.

Silv.9207:

If you’re talking about a Good thief, you will never be able to kill him in 1v1.

What are you guys talking about?
Seriously, where are those unbeatable thieves? I’d really like to fight them some time.
Before this thread I didn’t even know that beating a thief was considered a big deal.

Silv.9207:

they don’t need to kill you in a single hit like all the bad thief try to do, just hit, kite, hit, kite, hit, kite and then you’ll die without be able to drop the enemy thief under 50% hp.
Easy.

The irony here is that you say what a bad thief wouldn’t do, but in this scenario they are apparently fighting the worst necro in the whole game.

flow.6043:

Prince Vingador.8067:

… a thief should win vs a necro with out much problem

Cecilia.5179:

The only thief you can’t beat is one that plays perfectly, which is maybe one per server, and even then they won’t be perfect every time.

Silv.9207:

If you’re talking about a Good thief, you will never be able to kill him in 1v1.

What are you guys talking about?
Seriously, where are those unbeatable thieves? I’d really like to fight them some time.
Before this thread I didn’t even know that beating a thief was considered a big deal.

Silv.9207:

they don’t need to kill you in a single hit like all the bad thief try to do, just hit, kite, hit, kite, hit, kite and then you’ll die without be able to drop the enemy thief under 50% hp.
Easy.

The irony here is that you say what a bad thief wouldn’t do, but in this scenario they are apparently fighting the worst necro in the whole game.

Flow, i seen u around for a long time and have the utmost respect for u. I sincerely ask for your opinion if i m a weak, decent or good necro from my video links in my signature. Do i manage and use my lifeforce well?

Personally i m very interested in your roaming build but i know sometimes we all have our own secret builds. But would love it if u could pm and share =]

I am struggling a lot now against warriors and rangers especially. I love necro but it feels so weak now.

I know my current builds i m using are prob not good which might also be contributing to my losses =(

My build is just a lot of damage but little sustain…

Also is it possible to beat this thief as a necro/reaper? he has so many evades that all do damage!

flow.6043:

Prince Vingador.8067:

… a thief should win vs a necro with out much problem

Cecilia.5179:

The only thief you can’t beat is one that plays perfectly, which is maybe one per server, and even then they won’t be perfect every time.

Silv.9207:

If you’re talking about a Good thief, you will never be able to kill him in 1v1.

What are you guys talking about?
Seriously, where are those unbeatable thieves? I’d really like to fight them some time.
Before this thread I didn’t even know that beating a thief was considered a big deal.

Silv.9207:

they don’t need to kill you in a single hit like all the bad thief try to do, just hit, kite, hit, kite, hit, kite and then you’ll die without be able to drop the enemy thief under 50% hp.
Easy.

The irony here is that you say what a bad thief wouldn’t do, but in this scenario they are apparently fighting the worst necro in the whole game.

I wrote (should) because im assuming 2 equal skill players, i can tell u ,i will win 7 maybe 8 ,out of 10 thievs in a 1v1 with out life force even.
but then when i also get a thief that really knows how to thief then it becomes really hard to win and if u have 0 life force then , a necro just cant win.
I could name 4 or 5 thievs i know that i saw and play vs them and i can tell u that your necro wouldnt win vs those thievs.
Problem here is that 99 pervent of thievs cant play thief IMO.

I know you said equal skill, that’s what I was refering to as well. And I wasn’t talking about fights that a necro starts with a severe disadvatage, like no life force.
Again, pick the best and perfectly played thief in the entire game and I will beat them. Not just because I play well enough to pull that off, but mostly because – in my opinion anyway – the necro as a class has a clear advantage in this particular matchup.

I’d like to see that you beat best thieves in conquest match and without golem. Condi build?
1v1 when you are ready to get attacked or thief catch you in conquest match are not same situations. First situation easier, second harder if we are talking about thieves.