Guild Wars 2

-.-’’
oh really, mesmer QQ cause they doent fit confortable, warrior, guaridan ,engis, rangers (with reasons) elementalist….
AND WE NECROS CONPLAIN CAUSE WE AFTER almost a year got owr first piece of the love cake???
i know necromancers personalities are dark, evil, ando so forth but do we need to be REALLY EMO?

There a bad healskills and good skills in every classes.

Blood fiend is pretty good in a MM setup. Maybe you don’t like it (Hell I hate it) but some like this skill which is usefull for MM builds.

The same goes for Well of Blood. In fact Well of Blood is probably one of our best Healing skill because it’s a “Well” that’s tied to all the “Well” Traits. Plus, it’s a light combo zone which mean retaliation on explosion and cure condition on projectile/whirlwind.

Consume condition is good as an “Oh sh**t!” button that’s all. And I think it’s balance with the fact that we hurt ourselves with corruptions.

I think its enought that we have other classes asking for nerfs on necros and calling our skills/traits OP or whatever, lets not do that ourselves…

If conditional healing was removed it would be WAY too weak.

sorrow.2364:

But since ArenaNet doesn’t looks inclined to adjust healing based on base health pool, I’ve proposed another solution to the problem.

They actually acknowledged in the recent SotG that they still need to give Necros more sustain power.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

A 5 minionmancer bunker may take BF over it for one reason (trait where minions transfer conditions from you.

Nope.
Why would you get 1 condition removed every 10s over all conditions removed and huge heal?

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

jportell.2197:

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

Yeah, each minion.
But why do you want that extra minion over Consume Conditions?
It heals way less and doesn’t remove all conditions.

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

Yeah, each minion.
But why do you want that extra minion over Consume Conditions?
It heals way less and doesn’t remove all conditions.

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

Because each minions also siphon health to you. How many minion mancers do you see that DON’T have consume conditions? And I am not tarking about Well of blood I am talking about mark of blood which is Staff 2…

PS my main is not a necro but just going off observations….

jportell.2197:

Because each minions also siphon health to you. How many minion mancers do you see that DON’T have consume conditions?

Minionmancers are a rare sight. But when I see one, I rarely see Blood Fiend running around. The healing over time makes no sense when Necromancers barely have sustain.
I invite you to run a minion build and try both consume conditions and blood fiend. Then you’ll know which skill to pick.

The WoB sentence is directed to someone else who said WoB is useful in group fights and PvE.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Because each minion transfers every 10s So correct me if I am wrong but a 5 minion necromancer is losing conditions every 2s easily…

Yeah, each minion.
But why do you want that extra minion over Consume Conditions?
It heals way less and doesn’t remove all conditions.

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

While I feel that Blood Fiend could use some help the reasons I use it in my PVP MM build is:
- More Siphoning (It deals about 300-400 dmg per hit, where as CC doesn’t do damage ever)
- It heals when I’m being chain controlled.
- More constant conditions being taken off, including things like fear that I cant wash away otherwise.
- Gets in the way of projectiles sometimes.

Eh, because of those I run it. But it does have cons:

-Lose tons of healing on stealth spammers.
-The sacrifice is PITIFUL, 3.5k-4k hp when you have 20-30k hp?
-Doesn’t wipe all condis at once.
- Killable.

It has its ups and downs, but I prefer it for my hybrid bunker/dmg mm build.

sorrow.2364:

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

Sorry mate but you’re wrong again, it doesn’t remove conditions but it is a 10 second Light Field which allows removal of conditions upon Projectile Finishers – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_field

It is dam good in group/zerg fights and can be traited to 32s recharge which i use in my WvW support build.

sorrow.2364:

sas.6483:

Consume conditions is not too strong and does not overshadow the other heals. The three of them do different things, and are better than one another in different contexts.

Tell me last time you’ve seen any competitive necro not running consume conditions.
I’d like to have proofs too.

Blood Fiend, as mentioned, gives ridiculously good sustained healing in minion builds, which do in fact have their place. WoB gives excellent group heals and are often more useful than CC. Playing a terror build in sPvP is not all that people do.

It is as if you picked up the GW2, rolled a necro, got to level 2, went straight to the Mists portal, and then never played the rest of the game.

This topic is bad and a troll.

sorrow.2364:

jportell.2197:

Because each minions also siphon health to you. How many minion mancers do you see that DON’T have consume conditions?

Minionmancers are a rare sight. But when I see one, I rarely see Blood Fiend running around. The healing over time makes no sense when Necromancers barely have sustain.

MMs actually do have good sustain, thanks to Blood Fiend and all the life siphoning you get from your minions.

sorrow.2364:

I invite you to run a minion build and try both consume conditions and blood fiend. Then you’ll know which skill to pick.

You’ve inspired me to try using BF and WoB on my power build a bit. Not in WvW because you need all the condi clear you can get there, but I highly suspect CC is overkill in most places. Blood Fiend may actually even work really well with my power build since I stack a lot of vulnerability and the sustain from his autoattack will help prevent DPS downtimes.

sorrow.2364:

About WoB, it isn’t even worth in group fight.
Healing Spring is worthy in group fights, Water Fields are worth in group fights, Healing Rain is worty in group fights.
A skill which heals less then regeneration, takes 40s to recharge, doesn’t provide a water field and doesn’t remove conditions isn’t worthy in group fights.

Its already been said that it is a combo field that can trigger condition removal with projectile and whirl finishers.

Each pulse heals for 140 at 0 HP, which is 10 more than regen.
It scales with 0.4/HP as opposed to 0.125/HP for regen, so it actually heals way more than regen. And ofc it can stack on top of regen

The cooldown is indeed very long though…
It can also be traited to be cast wherever u want it within a 900 range and u still get the initial heal. Can be traiter for 32 sec cooldown which is acceptable, and can provide protection for allies in the area, or siphon with every pulse.

I dont really see why it is useless as u claim it to be

Blaine Tog.8304:

MMs actually do have good sustain, thanks to Blood Fiend and all the life siphoning you get from your minions.

Yeah, but you are still extremely susceptible to burst damage.
The constant healing is worthless when you have no way to mitigate damage.

Tobbygnome.6793:

Sorry mate but you’re wrong again, it doesn’t remove conditions but it is a 10 second Light Field which allows removal of conditions upon Projectile Finishers – http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Light_field

It is dam good in group/zerg fights and can be traited to 32s recharge which i use in my WvW support build.

How do you exactly trigger the projectile finisher on yourself? 20% chance on staff autoattack?
Yep, it removes conditions IF you are using a projectile finisher into it and IF you have a projectile finisher and IF the projectile triggers the finisher (since most projectile finishers are on a 20% chance).
3 “if” to get a single condition removed, while with CC you remove them all.

sas.6483:

It is as if you picked up the GW2, rolled a necro, got to level 2, went straight to the Mists portal, and then never played the rest of the game.

This topic is bad and a troll.

God…

really, I don’t think anyone is being wrong here. Others have uses, and yes CC is a bit better than the rest. But also, yes others have their uses. Blood fiend needs help and well could be a little shorter on the CD. That would all settle pretty well imo…

sorrow.2364:

How do you exactly trigger the projectile finisher on yourself? 20% chance on staff autoattack?

You said its useless in a group fight… the ability for allies to cleanse conditions with their finishers makes it pretty good for group fights, but not as good for solo play. Still its good for what it is meant to do… group support.

In case it is still unclear… “group” is the key word.

You don’t just not pick something because another class can provide it, yes other classes can provide regen, but your WoB goes ontop of that, ontop, you have no reason to say WoB shouldn’t be used over CC in certain group fights when CC provides nothing for your group and WoB does.

You’re seriously not making any sense mate, i can’t figure out what it is that you’re trying to prove, every conceivable reason we give you to use the other heals you ignore, what even is the point of replying anymore in this thread sir.

If anything, well of blood is too strong. Nothing in the game scales like it.

CC is the best heal for a general dps necro in a pvp or dungeon environment, but if you’re playing a different role, the other two are strong. I wouldn’t use fiend in pvp, but it’s easily the best heal for general pve, simply because it does damage and you don’t need an actual heal there.

Enferian.2705:

You said its useless in a group fight… the ability for allies to cleanse conditions with their finishers makes it pretty good for group fights, but not as good for solo play. Still its good for what it is meant to do… group support.

In case it is still unclear… “group” is the key word.

Assuming people have a projectile finisher.
Still fail to see any real use of that skill. Give me any real situation, a real example, in which it would be more useful than CC. Group fight means everything and nothing.

its very bad idea , 1st necros have one of the worst base healing , second low mobility , third low disengage skills , forth very hard stability access so when we are focused most of the times we are dead , basicly we can counter some condis with our heal and i think its good , this topic is needless

from now on corruption necros kill themselfs?

sorrow.2364:

Enferian.2705:

You said its useless in a group fight… the ability for allies to cleanse conditions with their finishers makes it pretty good for group fights, but not as good for solo play. Still its good for what it is meant to do… group support.

In case it is still unclear… “group” is the key word.

Assuming people have a projectile finisher.
Still fail to see any real use of that skill. Give me any real situation, a real example, in which it would be more useful than CC. Group fight means everything and nothing.

You say ‘dropping blood’, you cast it, your guardian whirls, everyone in the area gets cleansed and everyone in the well gets healed for 7k. Or just over 10k in WvW.

Actually I often take WoB in my team-oriented builds with healing power. With cleric gear, WoB is healing other people for more than their own heal, and I can do it twice. CC is fine, WoB is fine, Blood Fiend needs a tiny bit of love. The active has to be easier to use, or he needs to be harder to kill

People have stated that Consume Conditions is the strongest heal in the game… I call BS and besides its a pretty crucial skill for the necro. If you take our lack of blocking and stability plus the lack of stun breakers (we do have more now but compared to most its still a bit weak) Our high HP and healing is what makes this class if you take away that you really do kill the necro

Oh and when i am running MM i deferentially take my minion heal its pretty kitten HoT and it is the only heal in the game that does dmg

sorrow.2364:

Assuming people have a projectile finisher.

Its projectile and whirl finishers, the later btw removes conditions at allies around the finisher that are hit by the “cleansing bolts”
And lets look at who has them…

Warriors: GS/Hammer/LB/rifle/axe MH/axe OH/mace OH/sword OH
Rangers: LB/SB/Axe MH/Axe OH/dagger
Guardian: GS
Thief: SB/ Pistol MH/ pistol OH and some of their n3 skills
Necromancer: staf (20% chance), 2 minions
Engi: pistol/rifle (20% chance)

Got bored and didnt look at ele and mesmer…. but u get the point… there are many who have them… and most are on short cooldowns

Not to mention the retal everyone is getting, and retal hurts

Btw Blood fiend underwater = bloody strong (he attacks like twice as fast) X3

HUH? Both Blood Fiend and Well of Blood are niche because they ARE NICHE, not because CC is so great that it pushes them into a niche. You’ve got it entirely backwards.

Well of Blood is a good team support skill. Problem is, a “team support” skill that’s cast on you isn’t really a team support. So you have to take a specific trait to make it actually useful for support. The combination of working in teams and only with an extra trait marginalizes it.

Blood Fiend has so many issues that it’s not worth using. First, there are problems with minion AI. Then there are many situations (in many dungeon encounters, WvW, and PvP) where having minions out causes problems. Then the BF is a balloon waiting to be popped, and once popped you have a 20 second cooldown. Not a 20-second cooldown followed by a big heal, mind you, but a 20-second cooldown followed by a second-and-a-half cast, followed by a small stream of heals.

The only Necro the BF fully makes any sense for are MM’s in open-world PvE. That’s niche, too.

This is no different from a profession that has two terrible elites and one good elite. The good elite isn’t OP, no one uses the other two because they’re terrible. Fix the other two, give them a less-niche distinction, and they’ll be used in a heartbeat.

Blood fiend would be just fine if they slightly increased durability, and made it easier to actually get the heal from the active (either by lowering the cast time on Taste, or by introducing some way to monitor its HP easier so someone doesn’t spike it down). It has really strong HP over time, with a little burst heal, it is just that the skill required to use it is unnecessarily high when CC can do similar without any microing.

WoB can heal teammates for upwards of 7k, and you for 6-7k, along with a 10 second light field. You don’t need a single trait either, I use it all the time untraited, and it’s fine.

Well of blood should increase heals depending on how much allies ( or eminies) that r inside its range. So the more allies the better it heals. It is alreay a support spell for your team if they added this makes it better with a team but not as good solo.

It is not too strong.

We have 4 self corruptions, 2 put damage on us, and 1 increases the damage we take. Even if you immediately transfer poison / self bleed off, or heal it, good chance they tick one or two times eating 200 to 400 health off our own bar. Just about canceling the consume conditions gain. The point of consume conditions is to work in tandem with these skills, give us a trade-off, as well as with the philosophy of condition master in general.

The idea is that we want to acquire conditions, because we have tools to make use of them. Either to wait for enough to transfer back to the enemy (Putrid, Deathly Swarm, Plague Signet) or to heal and gain from them. Well while we are holding these conditions, not yet ready to transfer them, we are eating a lot of damage. The extra conditions heal on Consume is to make up for this.

First and foremost, if devs ever hit Consume Conditions with the nurf bat there would be massive uproar. I think its safe to say you could take anything away from a Necro but Consume Conditions is ours.

Next, its not the fact that Consume Conditions is strong, its more that the other 2 heals are weak by comparison. They need to change our other heal skills to be more beneficial to us in the role there suppose to play (support heal & minion heal) personally i would recommend:

• Well of Blood should be changed to a water field.
• Blood Fiend should provide some sort of heal if it is killed before you pop it.

Ascii.9726:

• Well of Blood should be changed to a water field.
• Blood Fiend should provide some sort of heal if it is killed before you pop it.

That sounds perfectly reasonable to me, and it would be a real insentive to take Well of Blood instead of Consume in zergs.

I don’t think they should lower the Blood Fiend skill cap, but make it more realistic. It’d be an easy change, but not ideal in my mind.

WoB being a water field is scary, honestly. I see why WvW wants it, but the amount of healing could easily go over 10k to your allies with just bone minions and healing power. That means a single healing skill could heal for over 50k in a team scenario (obviously rare). Not saying its OP, but that sounds a bit over the top to me.

Didn’t they up the Blood Fiend siphon a while back? Pretty sure it heals nearly 1000 per hit now. That part is really good, its just its dying all the time in any team style fight and then you don’t have a heal on demand. Too risky.

Not sure how to fix it without changing it drastically. Maybe it will just remain more of a PVE choice, where it is pretty good. Anet seems content with some stuff being favored in different parts of the game, as long as its a viable choice somewhere.

Consume Conditions is exactly where it needs to be. If you’re concerned about the other heals not getting enough play, then those need to be buffed to be equally attractive options.

First you call for Terror nerf, now you call for Consume Conditions nerf. Honestly, bring state of necro pre-26 and it would be better… Ah, just keep changes for Powermancer, they’re too awesome to loss Back to topic: I’d reroll to other class maybe after all these “balance changes”.

Consume Conditions is fine. Most Necro builds are not support and require a good dependable self heal for the attrition Necro’s are supposedly designed for. Consume conditions is that skill.

For Minionmasters the Bone Fiend can attack 12 times in the 25 seconds it takes for CC to regharge. At 926 healing per hit that’s 11112 health over 24 seconds, along with the option to emergency heal, the extra dps and the bonuses from minion traits on the Blood Fiend. Of course the fact that this minion can die easily if it gets targeted makes CC look more appealing. This is a problem with Blood Fiend and minions in general, not Consume Conditions.

For Support Necros who have a healing set and are fully traited for wells, WoB (with 1364 healing power) can:

- Have a 32 second recharge, 900 range, 240 Radius.
- Grants 3.9 seconds (30%+ boon duration form Death magic) of protection on up to 5 allies within targeted casting area. 33% less damage for nearly the first 4 seconds of WoB is a heal unto itself in addition to increasing your healing effectiveness dramatically.
- Heals caster 6604 Health no matter where it is cast. (5,240 + (Healing Power x 1))
- Heals 6980 Health over 10 seconds (698 per trick) on up to 5 allies. (152 + (Healing Power x 0.4))
- Vampiric Rituals Trait will leech 43 (64 w/ Bloodthirst) health from enemies inside the well over 10 seconds on up to 5 enemies. Up to 2150 or 3200 extra self healing.
- Vampiric Trait also triggers on Vampric Ritual hits for 31 (47 w/ Bloodthirst). Up to another 1550 or 2350 health extra health over WoB’s duration.
- Has a 10 second light field. A lot of people see this as a downside ( in some/most circumstances it is), but if comparing to CC, Projectile and Whirl finishers can be used for condition removal in addition to Putrid Mark, Deathly Swarm and if your playing well support, Well of Power.

Consume Conditions can’t match the healing over time and combined utility of a fully traited/buffed Well of Blood. However, Consume Conditions is a more dependable heal, allows you to be more mobile and is much better at condition removal (which is the point).

So in my opinion CC is fine, WoB is fine (I would like to see it become a Water Field, but that would be OP), and BF should self heal itself as well as its master 926 health per attack.

Amazing. We finally got some buff loving, and now the OP is just looking for something to nerf….in his own class. Here’s an idea. If CC bothers you this much…..don’t use it.

Bhawb.7408:

I don’t think they should lower the Blood Fiend skill cap, but make it more realistic. It’d be an easy change, but not ideal in my mind.

WoB being a water field is scary, honestly. I see why WvW wants it, but the amount of healing could easily go over 10k to your allies with just bone minions and healing power. That means a single healing skill could heal for over 50k in a team scenario (obviously rare). Not saying its OP, but that sounds a bit over the top to me.

I actually added this up. You can get it just over 10k already. If it was a 10s water field as well, it would be ridiculous.

it is not buffed or altered from the start, why do you cry about it now? necro doesn’t have passive condition removing abilities like eles, rangers or guards. how should we remove conditions then? don’t make a joke about condi transfer, what if theres no enemies nearby?

The philosophy of the OP is the reason so many mmos have failed. When you have options that are sub-par, you don’t nerf the ones that are not sub-par…you buff the ones that are sub-par.

ODB.6891:

The philosophy of the OP is the reason so many mmos have failed. When you have options that are sub-par, you don’t nerf the ones that are not sub-par…you buff the ones that are sub-par.

I do understand where your coming from and your not… wrong… but your still wrong. Let me explain. If you Nerf powerful ability because others of the same school are weak yes your classes become weaker (duh) and people QQ. BUT if you just keep buffing ability to match the more powerful ones then you create an environment where classes are too strong. Then the devs have to a) nerf the crap out of everything or b) make content harder, if they go with B and make content harder then you create a bigger gear gap and the game becomes un-accessible to new players.

IMHO just leave well enough alone, this post should have never happened i really hope the devs dont nerf Consume Conditions

Necro heal is by FAR NOT OVERPOWERED. No it’s not. It has 0,25 more cast time then most heals (say mesmers one). 5 secs more cooldown. That makes a hell of a lot of difference although more ppl wont think so. Timing is critical. Fail to time and you loose the battle. If you do it to early, no conditions removed, only 5500 heal (mesmer can easely heal 8k with Ether heal, and 3 clones, and on shorter cd, AND FASTER harder to interrupt cast time). If you do it to late the conditions will have melted you and the 0,25 extra cast time makes it even harder to land in the right thresshold.

Nerfing this heal? No no no no no. Period. Ele’s have better condi removal then us, and we are supposed to be masters of conditions. (we only have 3 tricks to ‘send them away’, or you need extra utilites traits to remove more. Still ele beats us by far. And you wanna remove our only and very tricky skill to overcome heavy condition usage?Didnt think so. Secondly our healing outside of skill 6 is incredible subpar to other professions. Main example again Ele (but also mesmer, guard, ranger, etc). Blow our heal what then? That’s right you wipe us in the next 24 sec window before be pop heal again.

I may have little ‘respect’ for certain ‘This is op’ posts, but this is not one of them.

I think the best thing to do is just let this thread die please, by now the poster should have got the message he’s completely out of line, this thread has got far more attention than it deserves and i think we should find something more constructive to talk about.

I hope other people share this same thought.

I knew that most people would not read the OP and just come here and say “OMG, this guy wants consume conditions nurfed! he’s crazy! let’s spam how we don’t agree and how cc is fine!”.
No. Just no.

I’ve said in the op that I don’t want Consume Condition straight up nerfed, but I don’t want also to be forced to pick Consume Condition over any other heal because they are niche, not enough strong or whatever you want to say.
I’ve also said in the sPvP forum that I think that Necromancers and Warriors need an overall buff to their heals, why would I say that if I thought that Necromancers’ healing is too strong?

I bet that if I titled the topic “BF and WoB are too weak” there wouldn’t be any kittenstorm and most people would agree, despite the fact that saying that BF and WoB are too weak or CC too strong is exactly the same thing.

The issue is the lack of variety in healing skills just because CC is better in every situation over other heals (or WoB and BF are niche, see it as you want), not that CC is overpowered. I’ve never said that.

I know that you guys are on the offensive because of all the people complaining about terror+burning, but don’t kittening start a kittenstorm that big each time you see “too strong” near something regarding necromancers.

Dude…seriously. Read all the posts. People give you times where you would take Well of Blood over Consume Conditions. EVERY class has a go to heal that covers most situations and the other two are niche. That doesn’t mean CC is too strong…it’s just an average heal that can cover a wider range of situations. WoB is a better heal if you’re in a group and don’t have any or very few conditions on you (like in CoF P1, Jade Maw) or if you have people in the group to use whirl and projectile finishers to do mass cleansing.

sorrow.2364:

I bet that if I titled the topic “BF and WoB are too weak” there wouldn’t be any kittenstorm and most people would agree, despite the fact that saying that BF and WoB are too weak or CC too strong is exactly the same thing.

It isn’t, though. The strength of heal skills isn’t a closed system. It’s part of the holistic design of a profession. Heal skills are supposed to allow each character to stay in the fight so the game isn’t simply who has the better healer on their team and who can wear whom down the fastest. More crucially, heal skills are supposed to support the archytype of the profession who has them.

Thieves get a heal skill that removes poison, burning, and bleeds, stealths them, and grants them some regen. They’re supposed to be able to escape into stealth and stalk, so their heal skill supports that.

Elementalists are supposed to be versatile, so they get a heal skill that changes its effect based on which attunement they are currently in.

Guardians are supposed to have a lot of active defenses, so they have a heal that also acts as a Block for the duration of the cast time.

Engineers are supposed to have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, so they have a Heal skill that gives them 6 different effects.

And the Necro is supposed to be the undisputed master of condition control, so they get a heal that not only cleanses all conditions but heals them for more. They viscerally and obviously punish foes for trying to stack conditions onto them. CC needs to be what it is currently to facilitate the Necro’s niche.

sorrow.2364:

The issue is the lack of variety in healing skills just because CC is better in every situation over other heals (or WoB and BF are niche, see it as you want), not that CC is overpowered. I’ve never said that.

It’s ok for there to be a heal skill that’s better in most situations as long as the niche heals are clearly better in their niche. BF is better than Consume Conditions in a full minion build since minionmancers get plenty of passive condi removal, though minionmancers in general probably need a bit more love. WoB is amazing in group scenarios. I slotted it when I was helping with the Balthazar temple event last night and I might go as far as to say that it was the difference between the pact making it to the temple instead of running out of morale partway (since we got there with only a sliver of morale left).

Which isn’t to say neither BF nor WoB aren’t due for some small buffs, but them not being good enough doesn’t mean CC is too good.