Guild Wars 2

Bhawb.7408:

Again: if you don’t like the game, don’t play it, if you like the game play it. It is really not that hard.

Heh…ya. Well, the problem is that, while many of us like the game, we don’t like what’s been done to the necromancer. And besides, I like pretty much all the other professions in the game (guard is super fun :P).

What we want is some real change that comes DIRECTLY from ideas in the COMMUNITY, not nerfs because supposedly we’re “OP”. Technically, we’re not OP, because a lot of times, we lack sustain. And the signet of vamp didn’t help…we need some real changes from real players. But if and when that ever happens, I don’t know. All I know is, a LOT of people are talking about quiting necro right now…that is NOT a coincedence.

Chuck Nizzle.6283:

Bhawb.7408:

Again: if you don’t like the game, don’t play it, if you like the game play it. It is really not that hard.

Heh…ya. Well, the problem is that, while many of us like the game, we don’t like what’s been done to the necromancer. And besides, I like pretty much all the other professions in the game (guard is super fun :P).

What we want is some real change that comes DIRECTLY from ideas in the COMMUNITY, not nerfs because supposedly we’re “OP”. Technically, we’re not OP, because a lot of times, we lack sustain. And the signet of vamp didn’t help…we need some real changes from real players. But if and when that ever happens, I don’t know. All I know is, a LOT of people are talking about quiting necro right now…that is NOT a coincedence.

As long as condition bombs keep killing unaware people within 15 seconds while disabling the target’s ability to react because they didn’t pack anything to cure fear (nevermind stuns in general), we will always be “OP.” When the average player’s line of thinking is this (this is a warrior talking about berserker stance):

Working as intended.No one feels sorry for condispam necros easymode cheese.How are the other classes do against this insanely op build? Fear needs a long cast time and very obvious animation just like skullcrack.And since fear has range and unblockable in comparison with melee range should have minimum 1 second cast time.No one can counter fear since you cannot react to no animation instant from range and it’s really embarrasing for Anet to leave 3 second+ cc in such a state.

we will always be “OP.”

And there was some listening to the community in the last patch, hence why “Enfeeble” had its cooldown removed instead of lengthened…and then had its strength reduced to, to quote someone else, “troll mode.”

probably cause this forum is full of cry babies and it’s not worth the headache.

Street Peddler.2638:

probably cause this forum is full of cry babies and it’s not worth the headache.

You should see the elementalist and thief forums.

Bhawb.7408:

Again: if you don’t like the game, don’t play it, if you like the game play it. It is really not that hard.

What a cop out. I can handle the incompetance of the devs but what gets up the nose is the attitude to the players….and it is doubly disappointing when the fanbois also starting overtly showing that attitude to other players who only have the best intentions for the game…not some blind loyalty to a company that treats its paying customer as we have been.

I am glad Bhawb has some value for his minion builds out of his “close” relationship with the devs, but it leaves the rest of the necro builds looking just that much worse and we can not see any improvement incoming…because no-one on the ANet team will have the guts to tell us exactly what is their intention.

Many of us have poured a lot of time and effort into the game and characters and helping others (other than just themselves), Nemesis springs too mind as just one example. To brush that off with “if you don’t like the heat get out of the kitchen” statements is just insulting and inflamatory and that post should be removed.

amiavamp.9785:

When the average player’s line of thinking is this (this is a warrior talking about berserker stance):

A while ago i checked in the warrior forums for funzies, but when i saw complaining everywhere and how unviable they are, meanwhile in reality they dominating both game modes … Im a bit speechless.
Oh and for the unnamed warrior: l2p.

Oldbugga.7029:

What a cop out. I can handle the incompetance of the devs but what gets up the nose is the attitude to the players….and it is doubly disappointing when the fanbois also starting overtly showing that attitude to other players who only have the best intentions for the game…not some blind loyalty to a company that treats its paying customer as we have been.

I am glad Bhawb has some value for his minion builds out of his “close” relationship with the devs, but it leaves the rest of the necro builds looking just that much worse and we can not see any improvement incoming…because no-one on the ANet team will have the guts to tell us exactly what is their intention.

Many of us have poured a lot of time and effort into the game and characters and helping others (other than just themselves), Nemesis springs too mind as just one example. To brush that off with “if you don’t like the heat get out of the kitchen” statements is just insulting and inflamatory and that post should be removed.

My “close” relationship is just that I’ve happened to talk to them once or twice. Its not like I’m buddy-buddy with them. A few of them happen to know my name; mostly via the over THREE THOUSAND forum posts I’ve made, and also a year of Necromancer podcasts, so don’t act like I don’t contribute to the community. I don’t have any contact info for them, I just mention them because I’ve had a bit more contact than your “average” player who has never directly spoken to a dev at all. Its easy to think of them as these magical entities that go out of their way to spite you. At best that is an ignorant idea. The devs are real people who want this game to be the best it can be. They make mistakes, as do all humans, they have to make money, they have bosses who make decisions for them. But when people get stuck in this idea that the devs hate them and have it out for them (something I see in every single thread on this forum), they get a completely disconnected idea of what is actually going on.

But “have fun or stop playing” is the hard reality. If you want to contribute, feel free. If you want to try to improve the game, feel free. But do it for the sake of it. Real contributions to this community are not done when you expect something in return. People like Nemesis who make tons of suggestions and effort do it to help people (and in his case get a little bit of money back, enough to allow him to continue helping people); it is not done to get an inside track, or so people think he’s super amazing. All of my Podcasts, my posting on the forums, and the times I help in game are done because I enjoy doing it. I don’t do it for any other reason (I’d be pretty stupid if I did, considering I get nothing out of it).

But this entitlement annoys the hell out of me. You are not entitled to a dev response because you’ve done X for the community. You’re not entitled to what you think you deserve because you’ve paid Y money on the game. When you bought this game, you paid for the game that it was at that very second. When you buy something from the gem store, you pay for that item. Your money does not buy you any special privilages to make decisions on balance, it doesn’t buy you dev response, it buys you what you already got. Anything extra is done by the devs to make their game better (and obviously hopefully get them more money).

So yes, the end result is that if you are not having fun, leave the kitten game. If you are having fun, play it. If you want to make the game better, make suggestions; but stop acting so kitten ed entitled, like ANet owes you anything.

You are correct in that no one is entitled to anything; inside the game or out.

However, there is an implied relationship at work. The game is a product. The product succeeds because it’s in demand. If demand wanes, then those relying on revenue from the product begin to suffer (however that suffering is defined).

If for no other reason than enlightened self-interest, it would behoove the devs or their bosses (and I agree that it’s probably more the latter than the former) to start listening to the very legitimate constructive criticisms coming from players who also have the best interests of the game at heart; even if that interest is narrowly confined to a particular profession.

Of all the class sub-forums, it’s been my impression that the necro forum is one of the more reasonable, balanced, and mature areas in the larger scheme of things. We tend to make suggestions that recognize the need for balance of the game as a whole, realizing we can’t make our beloved profession OP (no matter how much we might want to) because of how that would negatively impact the Big Picture.

For example, collectively (yes, there are exceptions; again, I’m talking Big Picture here) we’re practically begging they remove Dhuumfire. I don’t see examples of the Warrior class sub-culture asking the devs to nerf or remove similarly OP mechanics from their profession. And before this spirals off into a tangent discussion about Dhuumfire, realize I’m using that as simply one example.

Yet, despite this reasoned and mature approach, we are practically ignored and stone-walled with silence where the devs are concerned. I don’t care where that decision comes from; even if it’s the case that they would love to speak with us but internal policies from higher-ups dictate otherwise. My interest is results and moving the game towards achieving the potential it possesses. Anything that gets in the way of that is detrimental to that goal; including their lack of communication and collaboration.

But that’s not what’s happening. And if ArenaNet (whoever ArenaNet is; the front-line devs or some executive in a corner office telling them what they can and can’t say) can not or will not communicate with us, then that’s a BAD thing and it’s perfectly acceptable to call them on it.

Of course, all of the preceding is predicated on that finely balanced relationship of enlightened self-interest I spoke of earlier and recognizing (on the part of ArenaNet) that your most vocal critics are oftentimes your most devoted supporters and fans.

Now, if ArenaNet doesn’t care enough or isn’t mature enough to handle constructive criticism while they flush the game down the toilet, that’s entirely their business. But for those of us who are fans and genuinely want to see it succeed, that would be a real waste and a real shame.

It’s time for them to realize that their player base – including those heavily invested in the game and frequent contributors to the forum – is an asset rather than a liability. And if it’s a cultural thing about saving face and being unwilling to own up to one’s mistakes, then all I can say to that is get over it.

Bhawb.7408:

But “have fun or stop playing” is the hard reality.

Or in other words “Just shut the kitten up” If you are really serious about that, posting in forums is pointless and the forums should be removed.

Bhawb.7408:

People like Nemesis who make tons of suggestions and effort do it to help people (and in his case get a little bit of money back, enough to allow him to continue helping people); it is not done to get an inside track, or so people think he’s super amazing.

He is a very good example of how Arenanet´s policy really is. Nemesis put really much effort in this game and tries to explain something to people. He has done a lot for the community and also for the game in some way. So, after the Dec. 10 Patch he made a video where he voiced some critique about the recent necro nerfs and the general direction this class has taken. All of that very technical, without flames or something. After that, a sticky thread he had in the Necromancer forum with guides etc. got silently removed (not deleted). That is what annoys people about Arenanet, they refuse to talk and they ninja delete threads, post or remove stickies if somebody well known is not saying something in their favor, just for their little revenge. We had exactly the same with Xeph from Team Paradigm, and now with him.

Bhawb.7408:

But this entitlement annoys the hell out of me. You are not entitled to a dev response because you’ve done X for the community.

I am not sure how you think communication works. This is not a one-way-road. They have said that they want communication with the community but in fact they are doing the opposite most of the time. If they don´t want communication they should say it that way.

Bhawb.7408:

So yes, the end result is that if you are not having fun, leave the kitten game. If you are having fun, play it. If you want to make the game better, make suggestions

Basically you are killing every innovation with that kind of attitude.

I agree with Kraag in that yes we are not entitled to anything inside or out of the game but like any business that wants to survive long term it needs to treat its customers in the correct manner.

The game will live or die by its customer base and if you start by alienating them they will leave and then your looking at the domino effect where when one topples it starts a chain reaction. All it takes is for enough people to leave and before you know it certain features suddenly become useless. WvW is a prime example, if too many leave then there isn’t going to be enough to sustain WvW and instead it will be nothing more than a large map for the remaining small numbers to run around in.

That is only the start as when people leave they then have to reduce the development teams size which results in longer patch times and you can guarantee that the living world will not be a monthly feature anymore. We aren’t here complaining just for complaining sake we are trying to make our profession better and I don’t think it is wrong to expect us to question the developers on their vision of the class when past history of patches/changes show a complete misunderstanding of the class.

I enjoy the game so its not a simple case of either play or leave, there is a grey area in there where its not just a case of wither you enjoy the game or not. Its a case of I enjoy the game but with each patch they are reducing my enjoyment of playing the Necro class. So I could sit back and do nothing about it and be none the wiser, not knowing if there is any direction that my favourite class is going in. Or I can try and get some form of communication going so that we can actually get solid information from the people who are developing the game on what is happening with the class and see if they realise where they are going wrong.

But yes they aren’t entitled to talk with anyone on the forum but time is a commodity that cannot be recovered and there is only so long people will wait around fumbling away in a dark room before they realise there is nothing going to happen and move on. It used to be the case that there weren’t that many MMO’s and there weren’t that many being released. But nowadays its like everywhere you look there is another MMO about to be released, some good quality and some really bad. So MMO loyalty isn’t what it used to be and people will just move on to the next newcomer and forget all about GW2.

That means in this day and age company’s need to go above and beyond what they normally had to do in order to keep customers. Even WoW is starting to feel the pinch a bit as there subscription numbers have taken a dip. For me having good communication and keeping your playerbase informed and having discussions with the playbase to build up a rapport can only help in easing concerns and keep everyone upto to date on what is happening. I mean you will never ever keep everyone happy but if you manage to keep most happy then you are definitely doing something right and I think communication is one of the key elements to doing this.

To be honest if I was thinking of joining a MMO that is already out I first check the forums to get a general vibe as to what is happening before I take the plunge. All you need to do is check all the profession forums, check WvW and a good few others and if I was a new potential customer looking in, I know I would be put off joining the game.

The problem being and I maybe being a bit naive but I reckon a large portion of the negativity could be avoided if communication between players and developers were alot better than they are just now.

Just letting you guys know, the rage on the necro forum has NOTHING
NOTTTHHHINNNGGG

on the Ranger Forum.

We Rangers have spirits.

that is all

CHIPS.6018:

Because if the devs comes in here now this will happen. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

Or this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0BF5d3TvWY

CHIPS.6018:

Because if the devs comes in here now this will happen. :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZeYVIWz99I

lol. You just made my day :p

ty all for debating this out. hopefully….someone…is watching… i always come back to the necro forums hoping to see a little red anet bubble on the side of a post.

Rafeno.9673:

ty all for debating this out. hopefully….someone…is watching… i always come back to the necro forums hoping to see a little red anet bubble on the side of a post.

Then you are a true necro who delights in the sado-masochism that comes from false hope and failed expectations.

Azure.8670:

Just letting you guys know, the rage on the necro forum has NOTHING
NOTTTHHHINNNGGG

on the Ranger Forum.

We Rangers have spirits.

that is all

Have the rangers ever tried to bribe ANet with cake so they fixed their bugs?
Have the rangers had to spend over 6 months with a broken downed state while the devs refused to recognize the incredibly simple repro?

Trust me, Necros are just getting jaded with everything that’s broken, you won’t want to be here when it gets really ugly…

Kiriakulos.1690:

Have the rangers ever tried to bribe ANet with cake so they fixed their bugs?

This was pretty epic :-p

[snip]you are a true necro who delights in the sado-masochism that comes from false hope and failed expectations.

QFT

Well heres what Anet plan has been and will be so please relax. Nerfs have absolutely nothing to do with balancing the game (as you may have noticed), the game isnt broken and Anet will not post on sub-forums where they know they will be kittened at.
Now, they nerf builds/classes/weapons/sigils/etc only to keep people trying new stuff, try new classes, builds, spend gold, gems, etc. The only solution i have found is to actually let go of a class until the way i play or like to play is viable again, if theres only one class you are interested in you can always use the time to quit for a few days (months), chill, and then come back to enjoy the game a bit more.
Its a shame tho, but that will never change since it Anet has shown us this is their plan since day 1.

The true solution is to not give them any more money until they stop with that sort of asinine behavior.

For those arguing that customers should be treated “correctly” because of the producer/consumer relationship, I have a question:

In this case, are the consumers treating the producers “correctly”? It’s easy to remember the eloquent posts that propose good ideas to developers based on loads of in-game experience. It’s also easy to forget the army of vitriolic garbage that gets posted not only after every single thing a dev says anywhere, but also all the time in general. Relationships are a two-way street, and I’m disinclined to believe the consumers are holding up their end of the bargain as well as they could/should.

Another thought: whose to say that anyone’s ideas are actually legitimate enough to be implemented? Everyone always seems to taken aback when they don’t get their way, and it astounds me. Ask yourself this: if you get your way, how many other people don’t get theirs as a direct result? Will their voice just replace yours on the forum?

It seems like communities, never, ever take any personal responsibility for anything. They’ll throw feces at the dev for months, then if the dev makes a little quip here or there, such as “less qq more pew pew” (I think that actually happened), people start getting offended about their lack of professionalism. It boggles my mind.

I’d love to pick a dev’s brain not only about Necros, but all the classes. I’d love for them to just vomit out all of their ideas and philosophies for me to read. I’d love to see the class and game roadmaps. It isn’t that I don’t want this information, but it seems like every day, the forum community here takes more and more steps towards ANet turtling harder and harder inside a much more politically safe shell, involving fewer posts that are more edited/reviewed for “safeness”.

I never expect dev responses. Any dev responses I see I’m always like “Oh wow, a dev responded”. How many letters did you send/receive from Nintendo as a kid regarding the state of Mario and how the next version could be improved? Am I the only one who remembers a long period of gaming time where there was absolutely no communication with any game devs, and you just sort of prayed future games would be awesome?

ANet tried sharing their plans for the Dec 10th balance patch with the forums, and regardless of whether or not the patch itself saw the fruits of that feedback, it’s monumental to me that it even happened. No one here even pays a subscription fee. They created this game/service that you, the consumer, deemed good enough to purchase.

The “if you don’t like it, don’t play it” philosophy is one I fully support. The “well I like it, but I want it to be different in these ways, or I”m going to complain and say it sucks" philosophy is one I don’t like. GW2 is far from perfect, but at this point I just appreciate that it’s in the market. I’ve personally seen two of my favorite games slowly die sad deaths (Age of Conan, Bloodline Champions), and I’ve just sort of accepted that I don’t always get what I want. All I can do is make observations and contribute to discussions as they arise, and appreciate what I have in the meantime. If a game continues down a road and gets to a point where I don’t like it, I stop playing.

I stopped playing GW2 for multiple months a few times because of various frustrations I had. I’m back now, and loving it more than ever, to be honest. The beauty of a F2P game.

Cogbyrn.7283:

In this case, are the consumers treating the producers “correctly”? It’s easy to remember the eloquent posts that propose good ideas to developers based on loads of in-game experience. It’s also easy to forget the army of vitriolic garbage that gets posted not only after every single thing a dev says anywhere, but also all the time in general. Relationships are a two-way street, and I’m disinclined to believe the consumers are holding up their end of the bargain as well as they could/should.

Well once upon a time in a galaxy far far away these forums weren´t such a hostile place. The thing is, that there are some great people here which posted in the past good suggestions, reported bugs, gave constructive feedback etc. What they got in return most of the time was silence, getting ignored, when they criticized something they got posts removed, or sometimes jon peters appeared out of nowhere mocking at people. I mean only take a look at some bugs with necromancer skills and how long they exist, it´s ridiculous. You know what, if you treat people with passion that way, the outcome is no wonder. Arenanet get´s exactly the community it deserves. And the solution for them will be, like they do it with the matchups forums, that they will eventually close the profession forums also. That´s the way they solve problems, if they don´t have to read it, problem is fixed.

draugris.9872:

Cogbyrn.7283:

In this case, are the consumers treating the producers “correctly”? It’s easy to remember the eloquent posts that propose good ideas to developers based on loads of in-game experience. It’s also easy to forget the army of vitriolic garbage that gets posted not only after every single thing a dev says anywhere, but also all the time in general. Relationships are a two-way street, and I’m disinclined to believe the consumers are holding up their end of the bargain as well as they could/should.

Well once upon a time in a galaxy far far away these forums weren´t such a hostile place. The thing is, that there are some great people here which posted in the past good suggestions, reported bugs, gave constructive feedback etc. What they got in return most of the time was silence, getting ignored, when they criticized something they got posts removed, or sometimes jon peters appeared out of nowhere mocking at people. I mean only take a look at some bugs with necromancer skills and how long they exist, it´s ridiculous. You know what, if you treat people with passion that way, the outcome is no wonder. Arenanet get´s exactly the community it deserves. And the solution for them will be, like they do it with the matchups forums, that they will eventually close the profession forums also. That´s the way they solve problems, if they don´t have to read it, problem is fixed.

Pretty much this.

Zero communication and game breaking bugs for months on end… people get fed up.

I remember posting constructive feedback long long time ago..
I also remember posting feedback and adding buglists to the big necro bug thread.
Since then i have evolved into a troll who resorts to posting pictures.

The amount of dramatic exaggeration feels like it’s getting out of hand. Zero communication? A community with “passion”? Some comedian, I think Bill Burr, makes a joke about how being “passionate” is often used as a positive spin when people are abusive.

“I’m just so passionate about GW2 that I can’t help but yell at ANet for not doing what I want and not communicating with me like I’m a key stakeholder.”

Jon Peters “mocking” people? I’m pretty sure I saw those posts, and he was just being a real person. Everyone’s so quick to lambast someone else, but so sensitive that they can’t take a light-hearted joke.

“I’m just so passionate about GW2 that I can’t help but yell at ANet for not doing what I want and not communicating with me like I’m a key stakeholder.”

I just disagree. Any communication with the dev, period, is the dev going above and beyond, in my opinion. Then again, I’m not a needy consumer. I appreciate the fact that they took the time to create this rich, beautiful, interesting world for me to explore with a little avatar that has some abilities. If GW2 goes the way of AoC or BLC, I’ll remember the fun times I had fondly and move on to something else. It’ll be irritating, but that’s how it has to be.

At the end of the day, the developer owes you nothing. They don’t even owe you servers to play on. They could just shut the game down tomorrow if they really wanted. Read the ToS sometime. The consumer has basically no rights to anything in-game, ever. I haven’t personally read GW2’s, so maybe it’s different, but sometimes it’s alarming to read how, legally, developers of these games can do anything they want to any of your in-game assets at any time. Period.

Part of me almost wishes all game devs out there would crack the whip hard. They’d take a hit at first, but once no one has anything to play since they’ve been banned from everything in a genre (like MMOs), perhaps they’d learn to appreciate things a little better than not at all.

Also, if you ever give feedback for a game, and the devs don’t immediately jump at the chance to turn the game into your vision, there are a few possibilities:

1. It’s bad feedback. Sorry, not everyone’s a genius with consistently brilliant and unbiased ideas, and that goes for everyone.

2. It isn’t actionable feedback. Without knowing exactly how things are implemented, it’s tough to determine if something is actually feasible. Having no development experience makes it even more difficult, so perhaps your idea is just a large amount of effort that doesn’t fit into the plan.

3. It cannot be shoved into the current roadmap, but could surface down the road. It isn’t like ANet is sitting around waiting for things to do. I bet their project plan extends for several months. Inserting new “stories” into their current plan most likely means the removal of something else, and that requires an evaluation of effort, risk, reward, etc.

Taking offense that your ideas are bypassed is just silly. And if you’re that up in arms, apply to be a part of their team. If you are that brilliant, they should recognize it during the interview process and may have a spot for you on their balance/design team.

I have seen numerous very good ideas posted on these forums. Even if the ideas themselves do not get implemented, something addressing the perceived problems (because these ideas are not offered without a perceived problem) really should be.

The problem is that the perceived problems have steadily been getting worse instead of being improved.

The ability for necros to sustain and defend against multiple opponents has largely gone down while our single-target capability has mostly gone up. We were already strong in 1v1, even at launch.

In addition, the necro relies on an aggressive defense, but the siphons are too weak to really fulfill their role and the necro does not have the ability to deal with CC that prevents their defense.

These wouldn’t be issues if they weren’t at the core of the design for the necro. They would simply be weaknesses of the class. The problem is that these two things are supposed to be among the necromancer’s strengths.

Agian, I do not care if any of the great ideas I see get implemented, so long as something is done to address the concerns that the ideas attempt to improve.

It’s been over a year of two steps forward, one step back, or in a lot of cases a sidestep and snide “l2p”.

A year of fluff events and content that seem mainly engineered to distract rather than progress.

A year of seeing sPvP focused on to the detriment of other play modes…modes that arguably have a greater population base and thus potential income.

A year of waiting on core issues for several classes to get addressed…not just this one.

A year of seeing an attrition class get its sustain/defenses gutted, and its offense buffed, then “shaving” offense and even then further reducing effective defenses. Stealth nerfs; tooltip fixes.

A year of playing it and seeing what we think.

Have there been beneficial changes? Yes; issue is not that nothing was done, it is that nowhere near enough was done while prioritizing things a large number of us could give two bowel movements about. For over a year.

A year of hype and parades.

What the hell else kind of reaction do they expect from us after this long?