Guild Wars 2

Thanks Nikkle….I am pleased it was not a stealth exclusion……that’ll teach me to jump to conclusions (well it did fit with form I suppose).

Having played a while in some higher level Fractals and also with the candidate trials, I can confirm that Death Shroud can be sustained a lot longer now, as long as you have a full life force bar. It also is a good counter against condition damage. However, you will still get steamrolled when faced with spike damage, and you have little to no defense against knockdowns and immobilize spam. Especially in those candidate trials, the absence of an invulnerability skill becomes painfully obvious. The aetherblades just spam chilled, knockdown and immobilize on you, and your DeathShroud quickly melts away in mere seconds. Even with stunbreakers you are rendered pretty helpless against such odds. And some bosses can still one-shot you.

I have 800+ hours on my necro. It’s been the most enjoyable class for me to play. After all these changes it’s ruined. We were just starting to get even with all the other classes and now we have been nerfed big time.

Don’t think I’ll be playing my necro anytime soon.

The patch is not what you think… they were either sneaky on purpose with it, or someone really knows how to “write” these patch notes.

Remember i was upset as well ?… well… i played it, i adapted new builds, i played those, realized there was far more to this patch then meets the eye.

Nemesis.8593:

The patch is not what you think… they were either sneaky on purpose with it, or someone really knows how to “write” these patch notes.

Remember i was upset as well ?… well… i played it, i adapted new builds, i played those, realized there was far more to this patch then meets the eye.

The fix/change to LF amount/damage taken (what ever the hell actually happened) was a very big buff across the board, I don’t understand how Anet fail to properly list the changes they make, what is the point in patch notes if they don’t make note of the changes!

War Mourner.5168:

Nemesis.8593:

The patch is not what you think… they were either sneaky on purpose with it, or someone really knows how to “write” these patch notes.

Remember i was upset as well ?… well… i played it, i adapted new builds, i played those, realized there was far more to this patch then meets the eye.

The fix/change to LF amount/damage taken (what ever the hell actually happened) was a very big buff across the board, I don’t understand how Anet fail to properly list the changes they make, what is the point in patch notes if they don’t make note of the changes!

If you ever work in advertising or marketing you’ll know that half the things you hear/read are said in a “special way” for a reason.

glorius.1235:

Coming from a WvWer’s perspective…
2. “Zergers”
Death Shroud itself melts in zerg fights.

Anyone who was using DS to tank in zerg fights was not using DS correctly. You want to tank in zerg fights, use a tank build with plague and then go back and pick up all your bags. Arguably, DS is still a useful tool frontline but you have to watch your health pool and know when to get out of it. Plague is the bomb though for tanking. imho.

Nemesis.8593:

War Mourner.5168:

Nemesis.8593:

The patch is not what you think… they were either sneaky on purpose with it, or someone really knows how to “write” these patch notes.

Remember i was upset as well ?… well… i played it, i adapted new builds, i played those, realized there was far more to this patch then meets the eye.

The fix/change to LF amount/damage taken (what ever the hell actually happened) was a very big buff across the board, I don’t understand how Anet fail to properly list the changes they make, what is the point in patch notes if they don’t make note of the changes!

If you ever work in advertising or marketing you’ll know that half the things you hear/read are said in a “special way” for a reason.

In all the patch was really more of a reduction to some of the really hard to deal with problems.

1. Spike from burning/terror reduce some (sorry terror, you got boned).
2. Marks on most players are now smaller and unblockable, and necros are forced into a somewhat weaker tree for minors if they want the big unblockable ones.
3. Insane falling off things escapes (RIP), and using 10% DS to absorb a 7k backstab (a much less often problem).

However…. the changes to DS, the damage you take in it, the LF generation in smaller scale fights, increased 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, 2v3, survival by a very high margin. The option of now avoiding the garbage Death tree is also a huge buff for me, as the minors were so useless in a ranged condition build.

In reality, though no one wants to come to terms with this, the patch did exactly what some people asked for: More survivability – less burst from conditions. I expect the next step will be another condition nerf, and some increases to the blood magic tree… possibly a 25% of healing taken works while in DS after that damag nerf.

For me, the deathshroud overflow is the most disappointing change they ever made . Cliff-diving made my necro an effective roamer in WvW. I had a lot of fun soloing aroundthe borderlands and taking crazy risks. I need some time off from GW2 now.

Kale.9562:

For me, the deathshroud overflow is the most disappointing change they ever made . Cliff-diving made my necro an effective roamer in WvW. I had a lot of fun soloing aroundthe borderlands and taking crazy risks. I need some time off from GW2 now.

You can still use Spectral Walk for it if you want to.
Just use it twice just before hitting the ground.

LastDay.3524:

You can still use Spectral Walk for it if you want to.
Just use it twice just before hitting the ground.

Shhh! Or they’ll take away that toy too.

LastDay.3524:

Kale.9562:

For me, the deathshroud overflow is the most disappointing change they ever made . Cliff-diving made my necro an effective roamer in WvW. I had a lot of fun soloing aroundthe borderlands and taking crazy risks. I need some time off from GW2 now.

You can still use Spectral Walk for it if you want to.
Just use it twice just before hitting the ground.

Yes, but its more risky and we have to use a utility slot for it. but then again, i use spectral walk all the time

By the way, that should get the point across about how useful DS is. The best use I had for it was wiping oput 100% of my lifeforce just to fall.

Rigel.3092:

glorius.1235:

Coming from a WvWer’s perspective…
2. “Zergers”
Death Shroud itself melts in zerg fights.

Anyone who was using DS to tank in zerg fights was not using DS correctly.

let me get this straight…
Are you saying that when a character has an entire defense mechanic based on a particular resource (Life Force), utilizing that to the fullest is actually bad defensive playstyle?
Sounds legit…

I’ve been running a 30, X, X, X, 30 build since the patch and carrying some stun breakers and like it so far. Plenty of burst and crits availble if you take the grandmaster DS trait for crits. Used it so far in sPVP and PVE (though I’m not geared properly yet for the traits PVE…too expensive).

I love how Necro’s get MASSIVE buffs and people on the forums act like they’re no big deal or like they still “get no love”. Then the class is given minor nerfs (terror damage, spectral internal CD, DS fall damage, greater marks move) that were completely warranted paired with solid buffs (base mark size, major DS bug fixed, LF for Axe/SFiend) and they act like it’s the end of the world.

I also love how everyone’s saying “Guardians get nothing but buffs, time to just reroll” when the Guard buffs weren’t major…

1. Symbols sizes got buffed (JUST LIKE MARKS) because they weren’t big enough to even be noticeable before.

2. Merciful Intervention got a buff to cooldown, base healing, and scaling with Healing Power but it’s still never used because of how unreliable it is.

3. Monk’s Focus got a 30% buff to its scaling with Healing Power; all this does is make a build using Meditations + Monk’s Focus more on-par with a build using Shouts + Altruistic Healing.

4. Writ of the Merciful got a bug fix; the healing area it provided was not scaling with Writ of Exaltation (larger Symbols).

Yeah…

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

At least, could we now enter “Our Special World” when going into DS, and only see other necros that are also in DS, so that we can share a cup of tea, talk about how life is good without the fear of a thief jumping on you and pet the other end of our flesh wurm (who lives in both world).

Gathering lifeforce would now have a greater goal, and because Lifeforce decreases by itself, we would strive to return to this world and gather lifeforce even faster. Rabbits’s population in WvW will decrease faster than it can spawn, but life will be good.

Panhauramix.2784:

At least, could we now enter “Our Special World” when going into DS, and only see other necros that are also in DS, so that we can share a cup of tea, talk about how life is good without the fear of a thief jumping on you and pet the other end of our flesh wurm (who lives in both world).

Gathering lifeforce would now have a greater goal, and because Lifeforce decreases by itself, we would strive to return to this world and gather lifeforce even faster. Rabbits’s population in WvW will decrease faster than it can spawn, but life will be good.

I support this change. It would work like stealth, except that we would be invisible to everyone but necros in DS, and couldn’t see anything but necros in DS and terrain. We could dance together, laugh, cry….

Rennoko.5731:

Panhauramix.2784:

At least, could we now enter “Our Special World” when going into DS, and only see other necros that are also in DS, so that we can share a cup of tea, talk about how life is good without the fear of a thief jumping on you and pet the other end of our flesh wurm (who lives in both world).

Gathering lifeforce would now have a greater goal, and because Lifeforce decreases by itself, we would strive to return to this world and gather lifeforce even faster. Rabbits’s population in WvW will decrease faster than it can spawn, but life will be good.

I support this change. It would work like stealth, except that we would be invisible to everyone but necros in DS, and couldn’t see anything but necros in DS and terrain. We could dance together, laugh, cry….

We could call it the necroverse.

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

It does last a bit better in certain situtations. That means it lasts a bit longer until it’s gone. 0%

DS has gigantic problem that necro cannot handle any kind of burst or pingpong effect or stun/immo in any way except try to dodge. Granted CONDIMETA NECRO can handle this much much better, but as a side effect every other necro build which is not terror/dhuumfire spammer gets whacked out even worse than before. DS/direct damage build just gets pinponged and DS eaten by bursts/random aoe spam. Not saying it didn’t happen before but spectral skills helped more back then if used at right time.

Just because dhuumfire.

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

Notes were up 5~6 hours before the patch and they are misleading as hell.

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

We were well aware of the buff ahead of time. The buff only affects consistent damage applications without burst. With a lack of stability/invuln/block/vigor, or any other way to eat burst it was an effective nerf every time your DS went below 40 percent.

The issue is that players, who call everyone else QQers, are comparing full DS with Spectral armor on against a bunch of Hot join heros who don’t simply knock you down until Spectral armor is gone and then just free kill you. Sure if two guys train on you while you have a full DS with Spectral armor you will laugh at them, but when DS is down, you die against one semi decent player who knows you have limited access. Plus you just stupidly blew your only stun break to simply absorb damage.

So any smart player would simply let you pop it to absorb and then stun you and dance on your humorously badly played grave. Heck, if I was playing a necro against you, I would laugh as you popped Spectral armor than fear you away while it was on and corrupt boon it and kill you.

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same. The players who don’t realize this haven’t played against anyone with a semblance of skill yet.

i dont understand about all that fuss about DS… when the game launched when i wa falling from very high i was going in DS and i was dying… tried it many many times.. so how people say they were saved because of the DS? its something they had changed since release?

Bas.7406:

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

We were well aware of the buff ahead of time. The buff only affects consistent damage applications without burst. With a lack of stability/invuln/block/vigor, or any other way to eat burst it was an effective nerf every time your DS went below 40 percent.

The issue is that players, who call everyone else QQers, are comparing full DS with Spectral armor on against a bunch of Hot join heros who don’t simply knock you down until Spectral armor is gone and then just free kill you. Sure if two guys train on you while you have a full DS with Spectral armor you will laugh at them, but when DS is down, you die against one semi decent player who knows you have limited access. Plus you just stupidly blew your only stun break to simply absorb damage.

So any smart player would simply let you pop it to absorb and then stun you and dance on your humorously badly played grave. Heck, if I was playing a necro against you, I would laugh as you popped Spectral armor than fear you away while it was on and corrupt boon it and kill you.

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same. The players who don’t realize this haven’t played against anyone with a semblance of skill yet.

You say people that don’t agree with you just resort to calling others QQers but then turn around and basically tell them to L2P?

Nice.

Bas.7406:

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

We were well aware of the buff ahead of time. The buff only affects consistent damage applications without burst. With a lack of stability/invuln/block/vigor, or any other way to eat burst it was an effective nerf every time your DS went below 40 percent.

The issue is that players, who call everyone else QQers, are comparing full DS with Spectral armor on against a bunch of Hot join heros who don’t simply knock you down until Spectral armor is gone and then just free kill you. Sure if two guys train on you while you have a full DS with Spectral armor you will laugh at them, but when DS is down, you die against one semi decent player who knows you have limited access. Plus you just stupidly blew your only stun break to simply absorb damage.

So any smart player would simply let you pop it to absorb and then stun you and dance on your humorously badly played grave. Heck, if I was playing a necro against you, I would laugh as you popped Spectral armor than fear you away while it was on and corrupt boon it and kill you.

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same. The players who don’t realize this haven’t played against anyone with a semblance of skill yet.

I like this, " well a smart player will just counter your build by doing x" when realistically a smart player can also counter invulnerability or blocks by kiting for the duration of those skills to end, or strip stability, change targets, or whatever else. Those abilities can help you from getting trained, but give a necro with 40k ehp full mitigation and it’s an iwin button. Everything has a counter, or at least should. We are finally capable of lasting a long time if you spec for it (and you can have stability if you spec for it, although I don’t know if such a build is viable in high end pvp) and all anyone says is that it’s still not enough.

Check the spvp forums where people are crying even harder about Necros, and compare it to this thread’s posts. It makes it seem ridiculous. Only PVE players have a legit complaint. The title of this thread mentioned “nerfs ahoy” before it was changed to it’s current title. Nothing you said invalidates anything in my post, and I fully expect someone specced to counter my build to gain the upper hand on me. I don’t want to be at the top of the food chain – even though, as I mentioned, my build got even stronger. I want to have a legit place in pvp and right now, we do. And yes, extreme burst or cc will hurt me quite a bit. I play for attrition because I enjoy the playstyle, so ending the fight quickly or controlling me will certainly do me in. What’s the point of mentioning this?

All I said was I can sustain, I never even mentioned spectral armor. But I do like how you said you would just counter my every move in what must be a duel we were apparently having, like it somehow invalidates the fact that this was still a good patch for pvp Necros. I also like that you assume I am a “hilariously” bad player and would pop cool downs for the lulz. Classy. Really I don’t know where most of your post came from…

if i were you, i wouldnt hold my breath for blocks, invulnerabilities or anything else. They’ve said they don’t want us to have them. Personally I am happy to finally play my necro the way I always wanted to.

Somoe.3621:

Bas.7406:

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

We were well aware of the buff ahead of time. The buff only affects consistent damage applications without burst. With a lack of stability/invuln/block/vigor, or any other way to eat burst it was an effective nerf every time your DS went below 40 percent.

The issue is that players, who call everyone else QQers, are comparing full DS with Spectral armor on against a bunch of Hot join heros who don’t simply knock you down until Spectral armor is gone and then just free kill you. Sure if two guys train on you while you have a full DS with Spectral armor you will laugh at them, but when DS is down, you die against one semi decent player who knows you have limited access. Plus you just stupidly blew your only stun break to simply absorb damage.

So any smart player would simply let you pop it to absorb and then stun you and dance on your humorously badly played grave. Heck, if I was playing a necro against you, I would laugh as you popped Spectral armor than fear you away while it was on and corrupt boon it and kill you.

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same. The players who don’t realize this haven’t played against anyone with a semblance of skill yet.

You say people that don’t agree with you just resort to calling others QQers but then turn around and basically tell them to L2P?

Nice.

you talk like the ppl that are calling ppl with complaints here QQers arent doing the exact same thing =O

nice ;-P

Enundr.9305:

Somoe.3621:

Bas.7406:

Roe.3679:

War Mourner.5168:

You do realise most of this thread was from before people discovered that our LF went from 60% to 100/120% right?

Shenanigans. This buff was right in the patch notes as soon as they were released. Everyone just QQed about it before seeing what it meant.

I do feel bad for the PVE Necros who were relying on a sketchy mechanic, but my build got substantially buffed with this patch. I can finally sustain in a fight instead of hoping I kill someone before my life force is gone.

We were well aware of the buff ahead of time. The buff only affects consistent damage applications without burst. With a lack of stability/invuln/block/vigor, or any other way to eat burst it was an effective nerf every time your DS went below 40 percent.

The issue is that players, who call everyone else QQers, are comparing full DS with Spectral armor on against a bunch of Hot join heros who don’t simply knock you down until Spectral armor is gone and then just free kill you. Sure if two guys train on you while you have a full DS with Spectral armor you will laugh at them, but when DS is down, you die against one semi decent player who knows you have limited access. Plus you just stupidly blew your only stun break to simply absorb damage.

So any smart player would simply let you pop it to absorb and then stun you and dance on your humorously badly played grave. Heck, if I was playing a necro against you, I would laugh as you popped Spectral armor than fear you away while it was on and corrupt boon it and kill you.

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same. The players who don’t realize this haven’t played against anyone with a semblance of skill yet.

You say people that don’t agree with you just resort to calling others QQers but then turn around and basically tell them to L2P?

Nice.

you talk like the ppl that are calling ppl with complaints here QQers arent doing the exact same thing =O

nice ;-P

There are real issues with this patch posted in this thread, and then there is blatant, blind QQ in it, too. They aren’t the same, but to act like everything posted in all 8 pages of this is a serious concern is absurd. Like I already mentioned this is overall a pretty positive patch for pvp Necros. It just shifted the balance from offense to more defense.

What baffles the mind is locking us to 20 points in death magic to get a (to my opinion) must have trait for staff which is a weapon that basically goes in every build. i mean i like the size increase in un-traited marks but honestly.. the lack of synergy in our trait trees is beyond stupid (newest eg. dhuum fire in power 30)
Not even going to comment on the Death Shroud nerf. bug fix is nice but introducing the overflow is just nasty :\

Vangy.7403:

i dont understand about all that fuss about DS… when the game launched when i wa falling from very high i was going in DS and i was dying… tried it many many times.. so how people say they were saved because of the DS? its something they had changed since release?

It was a patch around maybe sept-october? Where they changed DS to prevent the overflow damage. It was around the same time they allowed spectral walk to be a true teleport, as opposed to a blink-like skill.

Most likely the change wasn’t a shot at the getting to places we shouldn’t and surviving falls we shouldn’t as we can still do that. It was most likely a balance to the fact that DS is just so much larger now. Imagine a thief breaking through 24000 hp, only to have the last 2% of DS absorb the 7k backstab.

Since DS historically was way way smaller…. something that may of us had determined was a feature, as they never out-right stated DS would be 100% of your HP, turns out to have been a “bug”.

Bas.7406:

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same.

^ Exactly this.

The changes to DS are not a buff; they simply fixed a bug and brought it up to where it should have been on day 1 of launch. When you’ve had to live with that bug for 11 months, I can see how simply fixing it can give the impression it’s been buffed. If they had done only this and then left well enough alone, then I wouldn’t call it a buff, but I would have been appreciative that the devs had finally fixed such a long-standing issue.

But they didn’t stop there. They now allow damage to overflow from DS to our regular health bar. This is a nerf. It may not appear so to those who are new to the profession or have not found themselves in a position to utilize the pre-patch version of DS to absorb a spike. Regardless, this does not change the fact that it is still a nerf.

I play vampiric necro (gasp!) and my sustain is pretty decent even without DS when facing non-spike/non-burst damage. I’d more often use DS as a twitch spike sponge. I can understand that for those necros who don’t frequently face that kind of damage, this patch has the appearance of a buff.

With this nerf, though, we just became a lot more vulnerable to burst damage while the change did nothing to mitigate our longstanding weakness against control + damage. I’ve learned to adapt to the latter over the last 11 months. Against the former, however, we just lost our primary defense with nothing given to replace it. This may not be readily apparent if one’s play is restricted to just one area. Play across all aspects of the game – PvE, WvWvW, PvP – and it begins to reveal itself.

I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. With the pre-patch DS, I didn’t need them; it functionally served the same purpose as those skills. With this patch, though, that’s gone. Replacing it with some extra effective health in DS is not going to save you. This patch took a defensive mechanic that existed for the necromancer, removed it, and failed to replace it with something of equivalent value.

That is the definition of a nerf. It may not be readily apparent to a new necro player or one who doesn’t play in areas where absorbing one-hit kills is critical to success. That doesn’t invalidate the fact that, globally, it’s still a nerf even if you personally have been buffed in one specific area of the game or in a particular build.

I’ll reiterate; I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. I really and truly do not want them. Simply revert DS such that damage received does not overflow into the regular health pool. That’s all. Doing so reinstates our only de facto block/evade/invulnerability skill; even if it’s one that is dependent on the life force resource.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. With the pre-patch DS, I didn’t need them; it functionally served the same purpose as those skills. With this patch, though, that’s gone. Replacing it with some extra effective health in DS is not going to save you. This patch took a defensive mechanic that existed for the necromancer, removed it, and failed to replace it with something of equivalent value.
……
I’ll reiterate; I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. I really and truly do not want them. Simply revert DS such that damage received does not overflow into the regular health pool. That’s all. Doing so reinstates our only de facto block/evade/invulnerability skill; even if it’s one that is dependent on the life force resource.

I agree.

Imagine if they patched block/evade/invulnerability skills to only absorb X amount of damage and that any extra damage above X overflowed into the health pool. Lion’s Arch would be set ablaze in a furious firestorm.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Bas.7406:

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same.

^ Exactly this.

The changes to DS are not a buff; they simply fixed a bug and brought it up to where it should have been on day 1 of launch. When you’ve had to live with that bug for 11 months, I can see how simply fixing it can give the impression it’s been buffed. If they had done only this and then left well enough alone, then I wouldn’t call it a buff, but I would have been appreciative that the devs had finally fixed such a long-standing issue.

But they didn’t stop there. They now allow damage to overflow from DS to our regular health bar. This is a nerf. It may not appear so to those who are new to the profession or have not found themselves in a position to utilize the pre-patch version of DS to absorb a spike. Regardless, this does not change the fact that it is still a nerf.

I play vampiric necro (gasp!) and my sustain is pretty decent even without DS when facing non-spike/non-burst damage. I’d more often use DS as a twitch spike sponge. I can understand that for those necros who don’t frequently face that kind of damage, this patch has the appearance of a buff.

With this nerf, though, we just became a lot more vulnerable to burst damage while the change did nothing to mitigate our longstanding weakness against control + damage. I’ve learned to adapt to the latter over the last 11 months. Against the former, however, we just lost our primary defense with nothing given to replace it. This may not be readily apparent if one’s play is restricted to just one area. Play across all aspects of the game – PvE, WvWvW, PvP – and it begins to reveal itself.

I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. With the pre-patch DS, I didn’t need them; it functionally served the same purpose as those skills. With this patch, though, that’s gone. Replacing it with some extra effective health in DS is not going to save you. This patch took a defensive mechanic that existed for the necromancer, removed it, and failed to replace it with something of equivalent value.

That is the definition of a nerf. It may not be readily apparent to a new necro player or one who doesn’t play in areas where absorbing one-hit kills is critical to success. That doesn’t invalidate the fact that, globally, it’s still a nerf even if you personally have been buffed in one specific area of the game or in a particular build.

I’ll reiterate; I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. I really and truly do not want them. Simply revert DS such that damage received does not overflow into the regular health pool. That’s all. Doing so reinstates our only de facto block/evade/invulnerability skill; even if it’s one that is dependent on the life force resource.

Someone should forward this to @Roe since he thinks it’s a massive buff. Kraag has it right. It’s only a buff in situations where you aren’t being controlled or hit with a burst or have a full DS and can see the attack coming. In truth it’s only a buff in terms of the current meta in tPvP where it’s all condition spam and boon bunkers. In situations where you need the stun break and don’t have ds over 50 percent you are simply dead in the water.

In PVE this is massive nerf that essentially destroys Necromancer’s viability on some Boss fights unless you have someone whose entire job is to rez the necro when he gets destroyed. In several fights there isn’t enough time to accrue a full DS bar in order to offset the incoming damage so we used the tricks of the trade to absorb the 20k hit and then continued to play.

Why do people think it was OK that Death Shroud could absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single attack? What you’re asking for it a block, and Necros are not supposed to have one . Get over it.

TheAgedGnome.7520:

Kraag Deadsoul.2789

I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. With the pre-patch DS, I didn’t need them; it functionally served the same purpose as those skills. With this patch, though, that’s gone. Replacing it with some extra effective health in DS is not going to save you. This patch took a defensive mechanic that existed for the necromancer, removed it, and failed to replace it with something of equivalent value.
……
I’ll reiterate; I’m not asking for blocks, evades, or invulnerability. I really and truly do not want them. Simply revert DS such that damage received does not overflow into the regular health pool. That’s all. Doing so reinstates our only de facto block/evade/invulnerability skill; even if it’s one that is dependent on the life force resource.

I agree.

Imagine if they patched block/evade/invulnerability skills to only absorb X amount of damage and that any extra damage above X overflowed into the health pool. Lion’s Arch would be set ablaze in a furious firestorm.

You ARE asking for Death Shroud to be a block/evade/invuln and that’s something the class is not meant to have. Just because one class gets a mechanic that doesn’t mean all classes need it.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Bas.7406:

The change only mitigate consistent non-hammering damage. Any burst damage or control plus damage build will destroy you just the same.

^ Exactly this.

[snip]

Oh look, another person trying to devalue what someone that disagrees with them said by acting like the other person is clueless. Just because someone disagrees with you that means they’re a new or inexperienced Necro?

Lol…

Somoe.3621:

You ARE asking for Death Shroud to be a block/evade/invuln and that’s something the class is not meant to have. Just because one class gets a mechanic that doesn’t mean all classes need it.

Just one class? Try every class. And they all get at least 3 such skills. Necros get none.

And no, even when death shroud could absorb an infinite amount of damage in a single hit, it was still not as good as a block or evade. Anything other than direct damage was still applied (conditions, CC, any on-hit effect for the attacker, etc.), so even though we absorbed the damage, we were still stuck with anything else the attack may have done.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Somoe.3621:

You ARE asking for Death Shroud to be a block/evade/invuln and that’s something the class is not meant to have. Just because one class gets a mechanic that doesn’t mean all classes need it.

Just one class? Try every class. And they all get at least 3 such skills. Necros get none.

And no, even when death shroud could absorb an infinite amount of damage in a single hit, it was still not as good as a block or evade. Anything other than direct damage was still applied (conditions, CC, any on-hit effect for the attacker, etc.), so even though we absorbed the damage, we were still stuck with anything else the attack may have done.

What other class gets an extra health bar?
What other class has their main form of CC benefit from Condition Duration?
What other class has their main form of CC deal damage on its own?

Different classes are different, just because someone else has it that doesn’t mean you deserve it too.

Also, Death Shroud absorbing overflow damage was an unintended mechanic.

- Technically not being a block/evade/invuln doesn’t change this.
- Being a helpful tool doesn’t change this.
- Having Death Shroud get nerfed doesn’t change this.

Somoe.3621:

What other class gets an extra health bar?
What other class has their main form of CC benefit from Condition Duration?
What other class has their main form of CC deal damage on its own?

Different classes are different, just because someone else has it that doesn’t mean you deserve it too.

Also, Death Shroud absorbing overflow damage was an unintended mechanic.

- Technically not being a block/evade/invuln doesn’t change this.
- Being a helpful tool doesn’t change this.
- Having Death Shroud get nerfed doesn’t change this.

…

Why do people think it was OK that Death Shroud could absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single attack? What you’re asking for it a block, and Necros are not supposed to have one . Get over it.

“Different classes are different, just because someone else has it that doesn’t mean you deserve it too. "

You couldn’t be more right; you just made my argument for me. In whatever way you wish to apply your statement to necros, it applies equally to all other professions.

The other classes don’t get the extra health bar because they have access to block, evade, invulnerability, leap, and/or stealth.

The other classes don’t get their main form of CC to benefit from Condition Duration because their main form of CC can’t be cleansed (knockdown, launch, etc.).

The other classes don’t have their main form of CC deal damage on its own because their overall DPS is superior to a necro’s (barring the possible exception of the flavor-of-the-month Dhuumfire build; a trait which very few necromancers are in support of, by the way).

Link to a dev specifically stating DS absorbing overflow damage was an unintended mechanic and then you have an argument. Regardless of it being unintended or not, it became the de facto spike damage mitigator for necros. Removing it means all we’re left with is a large effective HP pool in a game where large HP pools are worthless on their own due to the over-emphasis on damage and offense. In the absence of any other defense/damage mitigator (block, evade, invulnerability, leap, and/or stealth), necros are just HP punching bags that take a few seconds longer to down.

And, no, I’m not asking for block, evade, invulnerability, leap, and/or stealth or I would have explicitly requested the same. Those skills have no resource cost associated with them and are on-demand when needed. By contrast, Deathshroud relies on building up sufficient Life Force and managing that resource so it’s available at the right time.

Furthermore, it’s a resource that is depleted when used as our de facto block/evade/invulnerability skill. There is no comparison here. The dedicated block/evade/invulnerability skills absorb all damage while active without consequence. Deathshroud may absorb the same amount of damage, but it does so at the cost of Life Force.

A more accurate comparison would be if the dedicated block/evade/invulnerability skills had their cooldowns increased by 1 second for every 100 damage they absorb or if they only absorbed 20,000 damage and anything over that amount ends the skill prematurely and/or bleeds through to their health bar. Sound fair? No? Yet necros are expected to tolerate that very situation by implementing the overflow damage from DS.

Yes, classes are different. Different does not mean “not on par with one another”. If the other 7 classes in the game have access to skills, traits, or mechanics that permit them to absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single hit and the necro has none, that is not on par. Having extra HP is in no way a substitute for a lack of damage mitigation in this game. They’re apples and oranges.

Why do you think it is OK that every class other than necro can absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single attack? Maybe you’re the one who needs to get over it.

That, and if it was an unintended mechanic, why did we have developers making comments that necros were supposed to use death shroud in that method? For that matter, if it wasn’t intended, then why did it change TO having no overflow around Spetember/October? That’s right, at launch, damage overflowed from DS to normal health, then it was changed away from that. Now they have reverted that change for apparently no reason (probably using their bug fix as justification).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That, and if it was an unintended mechanic, why did we have developers making comments that necros were supposed to use death shroud in that method? For that matter, if it wasn’t intended, then why did it change TO having no overflow around Spetember/October? That’s right, at launch, damage overflowed from DS to normal health, then it was changed away from that. Now they have reverted that change for apparently no reason (probably using their bug fix as justification).

If the argument is that the change implies dev intention, then the change back clearly demonstrates that it is no longer intended.

Roe.3679:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

That, and if it was an unintended mechanic, why did we have developers making comments that necros were supposed to use death shroud in that method? For that matter, if it wasn’t intended, then why did it change TO having no overflow around Spetember/October? That’s right, at launch, damage overflowed from DS to normal health, then it was changed away from that. Now they have reverted that change for apparently no reason (probably using their bug fix as justification).

If the argument is that the change implies dev intention, then the change back clearly demonstrates that it is no longer intended.

No, it is saying they aren’t sure we need it anymore, since our death shroud is finally functioning at the value it is supposed to. We do, of course, still need it, but if it was “unintended”, then it never would have been the case in the first place. If it had absorbed an infinite damage hit at launch, then you may have a point, but it was specifically changed to do that. If that isn’t intent, I don’t know what is.

Somoe.3621:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Somoe.3621:

You ARE asking for Death Shroud to be a block/evade/invuln and that’s something the class is not meant to have. Just because one class gets a mechanic that doesn’t mean all classes need it.

Just one class? Try every class. And they all get at least 3 such skills. Necros get none.

And no, even when death shroud could absorb an infinite amount of damage in a single hit, it was still not as good as a block or evade. Anything other than direct damage was still applied (conditions, CC, any on-hit effect for the attacker, etc.), so even though we absorbed the damage, we were still stuck with anything else the attack may have done.

What other class gets an extra health bar?
What other class has their main form of CC benefit from Condition Duration?
What other class has their main form of CC deal damage on its own?

Different classes are different, just because someone else has it that doesn’t mean you deserve it too.

Also, Death Shroud absorbing overflow damage was an unintended mechanic.

- Technically not being a block/evade/invuln doesn’t change this.
- Being a helpful tool doesn’t change this.
- Having Death Shroud get nerfed doesn’t change this.

Warrior that never played a necro but whines because he fails horridly at hot joins. That is all I read here.

Warrior has 3 second fear. More then necro with 100% fear duration increase. Explain how that condition duration even falls into anything?
There is no sigil that benefits fear… yet a sigil for any other cc…
There was a patch specifically to fix few things that overflowed through DS… please get your facts straight and not while your taking a dump in the morning. It was meant to do what it did. Just because your kitten about your warrior not being able to faceroll solo lvl 9999999999999999999999 fractals doesn’t mean anything.
Every single class has a form of evade/invul/block/invis(a bunch of classes have multiples). Except for necro… there are no evade skills, there are no invis skills… there are no invul skills… and now we lost our one and only source of mitigation. Hell we got no vigor even… or stability short of dumping 30 points into a now defunct mechanic. We have… a few sources of protection… sadly it either trait for something that any semi competent person can avoid just to get 3 second of protection… yeah… Other source requires a giant cd and a slot.
Go on… make a condition necro and try to survive 11k backstabs… go ahead… show us how warriors do it when they don’t play kitten friendly class.

And I love the whole lich/plague clowns. Those tank with plague comments make me laugh… it just screams you have no bloody idea what so ever how necro works. So what if you have more hp/toughness… you have no dmg as plague. And 1… ONE… measly boon keeping you alive… name a class that can’t strip 1 boon. Go for it… name 1.

Frankly I educate kittenty reroll necros that think they can tank something with plague by stripping stability of them and then chain fearing then of the closest cliff. Until the point sinks in or they rage quit.
Also its hilarious to watch competent thiefs tossing that plague somewhere far away then switching their utility back to something else as soon as the deed is done.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

“Different classes are different, just because someone else has it that doesn’t mean you deserve it too. "

You couldn’t be more right; you just made my argument for me. In whatever way you wish to apply your statement to necros, it applies equally to all other professions.

The other classes don’t get the extra health bar because they have access to block, evade, invulnerability, leap, and/or stealth.

The other classes don’t get their main form of CC to benefit from Condition Duration because their main form of CC can’t be cleansed (knockdown, launch, etc.).

The other classes don’t have their main form of CC deal damage on its own because their overall DPS is superior to a necro’s (barring the possible exception of the flavor-of-the-month Dhuumfire build; a trait which very few necromancers are in support of, by the way).

Way to completely miss the point…

It was to show you how that argument works both ways. You think Necros should get a block/evade/invuln like other classes so by your own logic every other class should have Condi Duration effect Stuns/Knockbacks/etc, CC that deals damage on its own, and a second health bar.

Kraag Deadsoul.2789:

Yes, classes are different. Different does not mean “not on par with one another”. If the other 7 classes in the game have access to skills, traits, or mechanics that permit them to absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single hit and the necro has none, that is not on par. Having extra HP is in no way a substitute for a lack of damage mitigation in this game. They’re apples and oranges.

Why do you think it is OK that every class other than necro can absorb an infinite amount of damage from a single attack? Maybe you’re the one who needs to get over it.

I’m sick and tired of everyone on these forums acting like Necromancers are or have been sub-par, the class is extremely powerful and was even before the buffs.

Lol, what is there for me to get over? You’re one of the people here complaining about the nerfs , not me.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Warrior that never played a necro but whines because he fails horridly at hot joins. That is all I read here.

Ignorant Necro player that doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
That is all I read here.

1. I don’t play a Warrior in sPvP.
2. I play a Necro frequently in sPvP and did so well before the major buffs.
3. I use mostly Hybrid and Condi builds on my Necro in sPvP.

Please don’t make things up in an attempt to make your point look semi-valid, it’s pathetic.

Somoe.3621:

Way to completely miss the point…

It was to show you how that argument works both ways. You think Necros should get a block/evade/invuln like other classes so by your own logic every other class should have Condi Duration effect Stuns/Knockbacks/etc, CC that deals damage on its own, and a second health bar.

That is a dumb argument. Did you really not understand what he just said? He’s saying that all defensive abilities for the necromancers have conditional requirements to them, while every single other class has better alternatives.

He’s blatantly pointing out a very obvious imbalance that is not in favor of the necromancer on several levels.

Somoe.3621:

I’m sick and tired of everyone on these forums acting like Necromancers are or have been sub-par, the class is extremely powerful and was even before the buffs.

Redirecting you to this thread sir:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-attitude/first

This is how people feel about our class. They think our DPS sucks, and our survivability is laughable. Even if we spec completely in DPS, we still don’t have Cleave, and are thus out DPS’d vastly by warriors and guardians, plus we don’t have the survivability to stay alive in close combat. If we spec completely in toughness, we are some what durable, but our damage sucks even more, and we’ll still die from spike damage. Every class has a defense against spike damage. But after the recent change, the necro no longer has an alternative to fall back on.

Kraag is completely right, and he knows what he’s talking about. Listen to him.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Somoe.3621:

Way to completely miss the point…

It was to show you how that argument works both ways. You think Necros should get a block/evade/invuln like other classes so by your own logic every other class should have Condi Duration effect Stuns/Knockbacks/etc, CC that deals damage on its own, and a second health bar.

That is a dumb argument. Did you really not understand what he just said? He’s saying that all defensive abilities for the necromancers have conditional requirements to them, while every single other class has better alternatives.

He’s blatantly pointing out a very obvious imbalance that is not in favor of the necromancer on several levels.

Somoe.3621:

I’m sick and tired of everyone on these forums acting like Necromancers are or have been sub-par, the class is extremely powerful and was even before the buffs.

Redirecting you to this thread sir:

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/dungeons/Fractal-attitude/first

This is how people feel about our class. They think our DPS sucks, and our survivability is laughable. Even if we spec completely in DPS, we still don’t have Cleave, and are thus out DPS’d vastly by warriors and guardians, plus we don’t have the survivability to stay alive in close combat. If we spec completely in toughness, we are some what durable, but our damage sucks even more, and we’ll still die from spike damage. Every class has a defense against spike damage. But after the recent change, the necro no longer has an alternative to fall back on.

Kraag is completely right, and he knows what he’s talking about. Listen to him.

Let’s point out all of the Necromancer’s weaknesses and then conveniently ignore its strengths, that’s not a dumb argument at all.

The thread you linked does nothing to help prove your point, popular opinion never has been and never will be an accurate representation of balance.

I’d have to disagree with your last sentence.

HiSaZuL.2843:

Warrior that never played a necro but whines because he fails horridly at hot joins. That is all I read here.

Warrior has 3 second fear. More then necro with 100% fear duration increase. Explain how that condition duration even falls into anything?

I can’t believe this response. Wait, yes I can. It’s an MMO’s forums, where mutual fallibility is non-existent, and every single argument is nit-picked by one single counter-argument that often has no actual application to the original argument.

I might as well go watch goats screaming at each other. In fact, for those sharing my sentiment, here’s a video of a goat screaming like a man: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0-lkl9TzsU

To get to your point, Warriors have 1 fear, it’s on a 60 second cooldown untraited, and it’s 3 seconds if you’re within 200 range. It also doesn’t do 800+ DPS. Why am I even responding to this. I bet it’s just going to bet met with “But warriors have evasions and blocks” or “Warriors have other CC anyway”.

Oh well. If I were ANet, I’d nuke these forums from orbit and start fresh.

Cogbyrn.7283:

“Warriors have other CC anyway”.

But isn’t that exactly what the FotM spec for warriors is all about?

I think the only point trying to be made here is Necros no longer have a way to absorb huge single hits in PvE. All other classes can invuln/block/etc. a hit. We had that with DS previously, but now we do not. This may be something else to split between PvE/PvP.

Draehl.2681:

I think the only point trying to be made here is Necros no longer have a way to absorb huge single hits in PvE. All other classes can invuln/block/etc. a hit. We had that with DS previously, but now we do not. This may be something else to split between PvE/PvP.

Precisely this.

Somoe, I really have no idea why you are seemingly so adamant about outright ignoring the PvE necro’s concerns here. Like it or not, you NEED an invuln/block/dodge/vigor mechanic in PvE, this is not a debatable matter, there are some fights in dungeons and fractals where if you cannot outright block the attack, you will get downed. Regardless of how its achieved, Necros need to have some form of (at will) blocking available to them in some form.

Now yes, we are not meant to have a huge pile of actual evades and blocks like other classes, but we still need some equivalent mechanic to stop the 1-shots in PvE and the old deathshroud mechanic used to give us this in a way that required knowledge to keep a reserve and use it at the right time. It was, says it with me, “a unique mitigation mechanic that only Necros had, it was not as powerful as a full block or evade, but it allowed PvE necros to avoid the 1-shots when used properly”. You keep arguing about avoiding homogenization and the old deathshroud did -exactly- that, why would you be so against returning to it, especially when you, and the devs, have said they don’t want us having a full repertoire of proper blocks and evades?