Guild Wars 2

So this is a myriad of issues that have been bugging me since release and I would like to hear what the community thinks of them and also maybe what some of the developers are thinking in regards to these issues.

First off I Play a necromancer as my main and it’s no surprise to anyone that necromancer is not really a meta class. In PvE/PvP/WvW it’s not really desirable for a number of reasons.

reason 1. Light armor -

I don’t see what purpose different armor types have in this game except to exclude classes. I see so many groups saying BERSERKER, HEAVIES ONLY or GTFO.
well that’s nice but in gw1 there was at least some balance to different armor types. For instance if you wore light armor you had more energy, additionally you also had elemental resistance, whereas heavy armor had almost no energy and thus this was some form of balance.

In GW2 however, there is NO downside to wearing heavy armor, they have no cooldown restriction on skills, there is no such thing as energy so they cant have less of that. It doesn’t restrict things like endurance regeneration or make them move slower. Basically warriors and guardians get more armor w/absolutely no drawback whatsoever. I don’t understand why we all just don’t have the same armor rating but keep the armor classes/looks different.

Additonally necromancer’s had medium armor in GW1, why was this changed to light armor in gw2???

reason 2. condition versus power builds. -

Condition damage builds in PvE are completely broken for the most part. Why is it, that bleed’s on a single target only stack to 25? If one application of each condition is on a target in addition to 25 stacks of bleed’s my build as a conditionmancer does 0 damage! It’s insane I might as well stand there and do nothing, Why does each player not have their own separate instance of condition’s applied to the same target? Or perhapse some sort of spill over effect where if a target has 25 bleeds, any additional bleeds get the total damage applied to the target instantly.

reason 3. stat combinations on armor and viability -

Half (if not more) of necromaner’s weapon skills and utility skills revolve around condition damage. And yet there is no armor stat combination that allows for the following stats: condition damage (primary), condition duration, and precision (crits apply bleeds for necro). Those stats compliment condition damage to its maximum, even though conditions do nothing once there all applied by multiple players on the same target as mentioned above.

So you might think well i’ll go power build. We’ll what stats compliment power? Precision and critical %, oh perfect that’s berserker armor. The only downside to this is we wear light armor and again NOBODY wants light armor users in PvE, because they can only take 1 hit in full zerker gear where as heavies can usually take 2 hits. Again I don’t understand armor differences in this game there is NO DOWNSIDE to heavy armor.

reason 4 – PVP/WvW -

We have NO ESCAPES as a class, we are completely committed to every fight we engage in whether we like it or not. This is a huge drawback to the class as we have no leaps, stealths and only a weak teleport with necrotic traversal to a worm minion which is also a 1 sec cast to pull this off, not instant. – This is also very confusing since we have moves like spectral walk, that turns you into a ghostly figure. You would think that would be a stealth, only instead it leaves a giant green trail behind you ALERTING the enemy as to which way you went. Additionally death shroud also sounds like a move which should make you invisible since you enter the realm of the dead and become ethereal, and yet nope no stealth…

Additionally half our builds in wvw are condition burst and if you are doing anything in a zerg you will notice that most of our conditions are removed INSTANTLY because of mass condition removal. In addition to this there is FOOD which reduces the duration of conditions!? Why is there not food which reduces the damage taken from critical hit % which is the accompaniment stat to power/crit builds?! I guess arenanet really HATES conditions.

reason 5 Combo Fields -

another thing that bother’s me is combo fields for necro’s. IF you ever go with an organized zerg in WvW you will learn that Combo field water/fire, and combo finisher blast is essential for aoe healing and burst damage. Necro has only one combo finisher blast move on its staff which has a 25 second CD on it!? Thief for example can trigger 5-6 combo field blasts with the shortbow #2 skill in about 5 seconds in comparison.

Also none of our skill’s trigger combo fields fire or water. I understand having combo field dark or poison on wells and staff marks, but having combo field light on well of Blood?! Necromancers shouldn’t have anything combo field light on their skills at all since they are a dark oriented class! Not to mention when you think of a well you think of WATER and well of blood is a healing move (combo field water is for healing), only I can never use it in a zerg on my allies because it creates combo field light (which heals conditions) instead of water so I can’t even heal people as necro w/out getting yelled at “WATER FIELDS ONLY!”

In conclusion -

So I dunno what to do, go healing and kitten people off that i’m creating light fields instead of water and cant run away from any fights? Go conditionmancer and have 50% of my damage disappear into the ether, either from condition removal, reduced condition duration food, or too many conditions on the target? Or go power and be told I’m crap because I don’t have heavy armor and I get one shot.

A lot of these issues don’t have to do with just necromancer there about a lot of the core mechanics of the game as well.

Thoughts?

I agree completely. My main is necro, and I an demoralized as a player. I feel like my class is useless. I throw stupid marks on a wall in wvw which immediately alerts the enemies cuz the marks cause crossed swords. When I throw stupid marks on players, they run out of them or remove the conditions. I have tried no less than 13 full builds with different exotic armor combos – all have proven weak and ineffective. I added power to my build, but really, what weapon am I going to use in a zerg that causes power damage – an axe or daggers which hit one or two targets. I thought necro was designed to do mass damage, yet I do very little. I am very tired of hearing people brag about loot bags – I tag tons of people in battles, but almost always die and can’t get my bags or don’t earn them in the first place.

I have had many other players look at my build and my weapons and armor combos – everyone who has seen them says they should do well. I am not a bad player either, having played both gw 1 and 2 since their inceptions and earned high ranking pvp titles in gw 1. The most frustrating thing about being a necro for me is that in a 1 v 1 situation (except in pvp with my ax build) in wvw, I cannot survive a single attack from any level 80 class. I must play in a havoc group or zerg – when I am alone (like running to a zerg when I die) I get easily picked off by any single player, never mind by a havoc group. I have no escape moves, I have no way to survive if I am snagged. I am really tired of throwing circles or doing limited damage with a staff/horn/focus/wand combo or doing limited damage 1 v 1 w/ an axe or daggers.

Necros need buffing big time. No one plays us. No one wants us. No one wants us to use our marks – they alert enemies and interfere w/ healing water marks etc. really frustrating. I guess I will just stand around and be a diversion and get no loot and die and repair and die and repair and die and repair. I’m switching to thief or to gw’s heavily favored class – the berserker hammer warrior. I feel like wvw for necros is turning into Hall of Heroes in gw1 – if you don’t have the cookie cutter class and build you’re not wanted. Thanks a lot anet.

Necromancers are excellent in PvP play.

They lack evasion skills/leaps/a solid gap closer so they’re a bit pokey in WvW and this also makes them prime targets when outnumbered in a group fight, but they have very strong CC and some hard hitting offense.

I don’t want to sound like a jerk here, but a necro can hold it’s own, so you’re not doing it right.

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

Additonally necromancer’s had medium armor in GW1, why was this changed to light armor in gw2???

Incorrect. Necromancer armor in GW was defense 60, the same as Mesmer, Ritualist, Monk and Elementalist. 70 defense armor was for Ranger, Assassin and Dervish. 80 Defense was for Warrior and Paragon.

In GW2, heavy armor has minimal benefits. Heavy-only groups are kind of a false meta generated because Guardians are perceived as valuable because of boons and defensive procs, while Warriors were once kings of COF1 and some people haven’t gotten past that. Real meta groups are not “heavy only.”

The way the game applies damage means that the defense from Ascended armor adds 304 more to the Armor stat for heavy versus light. Add in the base 916 Toughness all characters have, and the damage divisor is either 1883 (Light) or 2187 (Heavy). A hit doing 5,000,000 base damage would do 2286 to a heavy and 2655 to a light, a difference of 396 health. That’s for berserker armor with no added toughness. In slow, heavy-hitting PvE, mitigation skills mean that armor Defense differences are a negligible factor.

Necromancers have a ton of base health, which adds way more to their survivability than having a small amount of extra Defense would add. They’ve also got Death Shroud. The reason they are not “wanted” in meta or false meta groups is that they bring relatively little that benefits the team and have been designed as an attrition class. Since PvE is first and foremost a burst, direct damage game mode, necros get short shrift.

I agree that necro players have reasons to grouse about their place in PvE, but armor is not one of the issues. Know what you’re grousing about.

I see complaints about armor, but from a statistical standpoint the necromancer is the second bulkiest class in the game. Armor is overrated. The HP tiers impact much more than armor does. Look at the differences between armor ratings (exotic)

Light: 1836
Medium: 1980 (7.8% higher than light)
Heavy: 2127 (15.8% higher than light, 7.4% higher than medium)

And HP ratings:

Low: 10.805
Medium: 15,082 (38.6% higher than low)
High: 18,372 (70% higher than low, 21.8% higher than medium)

And you can see how silly this “heavies only” really is. The whole “heavies only” stereotype is perpetrated by people who are too stubborn to learn that armor doesn’t mean squat in the long run, and too impatient to learn what other classes can do.

I run full zerker necro in dungeons all of the time, and it is the tankiest toon I have. Sure, it doesn’t have the endurance regen options that other classes get, but with DS and so much health, I find I’m more than capable of just tanking a few hits. Worst case scenario, I pop a meat and orrian truffle stew and carry on like nothings different.

No, the real problem with Necros in dungeons is that we lack sufficient AoE direct damage, and that we lack potent utility. Most of the things a necro can do, another class does better, and the necro doesn’t do a whole lot of things. The big role necros have, being a debuffer, is ruined by champions having halved vulnerability and weakness duration, and also by champions spamming boons whenever they get removed, and also by nearly all enemies attacking too slowly for chill and cripple to matter.

The complaints about PVE conditions is valid. But in WvW, the condi necro is a roaming bastion of power. In 1 on 1, the necro’s massive bulk means immediate advantage in the fight, and on small scale fights the condi pressure and AoE damage the necro puts out is scary. Power necros are more difficult to play, but far from impossible. Even in zergs, I find condis to be a meaningful contribution, especially with how well staff can apply them. But in zergs, necros have another unique utility: with spectral wall, the necro is the only class that can give protection to the entire zerg. A 33% reduction in damage for 5-10 seconds for 40 people is enough to make or break a charge.

The biggest flaw with the necro in sPVP is that, due to our low amount of skill evades and mobility, and utter lack of effective direct damage burst, we ultimately aren’t in control of the fight. Our opponent either has enough cleanses to neutralize the conditions, or they don’t. Our opponent either has enough bulk to survive our burst, or they don’t. Our opponent either has the stun breaks/stability to survive the condi burst, or they don’t. In the end, there’s nothing a necro can really do, other than make a build and hope that our opponents are lacking in the end.

The necro actually has two blast finishers. Putrid explosion counts as a blast finisher, and on a 20 second cooldown it is quite spammable. Bone minions don’t have a lot of control in their placement, but most circular fields will encompass them. Now, I agree that it is weird for Well of Blood to be a light field, and I agree that Well of Blood should be a water field, but I disagree that light fields are useless in WvW. Light fields blast for retaliation, so a good light field can make a zerg incredibly dangerous to attack. Unfortunately, other classes do light fields better…

But if you want to heal someone, I’d recommend getting Transfusion. It heals for about 2.6k with no healing power over a large radius. There are some other skills you can pick up, like Deathly Invigoration, but they mostly aren’t worth it.

I agree that the necro needs some tweaks, and the necro forum is full of these tweaks, but things aren’t nearly as bad as you make it out to be.

RE:WvW @Arachnid I agree with you 85% – however, necro condition builds in WvW are lackluster now. So many people are building to counter them due to popularity. I kittened my fear setup for a knight’s & Soldier’s mix with runes of speed, ’zerk trinkets/weapons. Using a 20.25.25.00 build. having 22k.HP / 2.6k.armor / 2.5k.pwr / 50%crit / 50%crit.dmg nourished is a walking madhouse of pain and anguish.

as for lack of mobility, endurance for example. try using orrian steak? erm… “lupi food” 40% endurance recharge rate is very helpful.

Necromancer really does not need help in WvW – Zerging/Havocing is very easy with my current set-up. yes my bags are full all the time. I dont worry about not having fire/water fields, when I have 3 DARK fields that stop any hammer train in it’s tracks. traited for chilling darkness with suffering, corruption, and darkness wells. the gaurdians in the zerg should be actively searching for necromancers, eles, and mesmers to group with and support them, because they support the zerg(its a team sport people) so dont worry about stun breaks. any huge fights you should be starting out as plague form anyway. Of course you may not want to be pigeon holed into the necro WvW meta. do whatever you want, and be patient with people griping about you not being set up ‘properly’

(I haven’t been to Spvp in a while, so no comment on that subject.)

Alright, on to my PvE concerns; btw we have plenty of AoE sustain as power builds if you learn to rotate your skills proper, do not blow all your cooldowns at once.

Necromancer’s in PvE are not respected mostly due to their lack of group damage support. eg; Elementalist’s ability to grant the group members nearby 10-20 stacks of might(Sc/d). My current PVE build is zerk armour(runes of strgth)/assassin weapons/zerk trinkets. using 30.10.00.30 shroud build with Well of suffering, Blood is Power, and Signet Spite.[nourished stats:2.6k+pwr(3k pwr with BiP 10might) // 50%crit(100% in shroud) // 108%critdmg] rotating mostly focus#4/well of suffering/Lifeblast spam for high vulnerability uptime and personal might stacks. <-selfishness is one of the reasons necros are ‘disliked’ in your above average dungeon group “why bring a necro with 1war/1ele/mesmer when you can have another war and ele?” <-that is not likely to change any time soon.

so in short, I can only suggest you tough it out and learn the most optimal[enjoyable] way to play your necro. I have played mine since early release. I can tell you we have the damage capability, yet lack group synergy in almost every aspect. (I know necro’s are suppose to be an ‘offensive support’ class providing weakness[nerfed] chill, and blinds[against dungeon boss’ or champs? /laugh] and vulnerability) however we do not bring uniqueness to the table. (dead_horse alert) Other classes can do what you do better, with more group support options better then you? But, please do not give up my brothers and sisters. Have faith that Arenanet will see the dark some day soon!

Jumpin Lumpix.6108:

reason 4 – PVP/WvW -

We have NO ESCAPES as a class, we are completely committed to every fight we engage in whether we like it or not. This is a huge drawback to the class as we have no leaps, stealths and only a weak teleport with necrotic traversal to a worm minion which is also a 1 sec cast to pull this off, not instant. – This is also very confusing since we have moves like spectral walk, that turns you into a ghostly figure. You would think that would be a stealth, only instead it leaves a giant green trail behind you ALERTING the enemy as to which way you went. Additionally death shroud also sounds like a move which should make you invisible since you enter the realm of the dead and become ethereal, and yet nope no stealth…

Additionally half our builds in wvw are condition burst and if you are doing anything in a zerg you will notice that most of our conditions are removed INSTANTLY because of mass condition removal. In addition to this there is FOOD which reduces the duration of conditions!? Why is there not food which reduces the damage taken from critical hit % which is the accompaniment stat to power/crit builds?! I guess arenanet really HATES conditions.

Since I really only play wvw, I’ll only comment on this part :>

If you mean ‘escapes’ as in being able to get away from a fight, necros might have a little less than some other classes but by no means are they helpless. Your only thinking in terms of moving your own character in order to get away but gap ‘openers’ are much more than that no? As a condition necro you have so many skills that could help you open the gap and get away. You could cripple them… when they get rid of that, freeze them… when they get rid of that… fear them… and fear them again… drop you fear wall thingy utility… and repeat non-stop until you get somewhere safe, which your huge HP pool will allow you to do. If your running around with no swiftness, no speed boosts, low hp, with all skills on cooldown…. well…

In regards to usefulness in a wvw zerg, necros are much more useful than say… thief, ranger, and engineers no? You see your conditions removed superfast by a giant blob but… physical damage being done is being healed back up just as fast. Why do you think that necro is almost always the first target in small group roaming in wvw? I can assure you its not because necros cannot ‘escape’ but rather because necros have the highest damage potential and need to be removed ASAP.

In regards to food that reduces the potential of physical damage… theres toughness food (more defense), vitality food (more hp), healing power food, etc. Flipping your statement around, i would like to ask, why isn’t there food that increases my attack by 40%?

emi

First, the complaints about armor, were incidental to the condition dmg mechanics and that armor is not synergized w/ traits, skills and weapons for necros. I think the pt about the armor further was that if the damage/skills are weak, at least buff the armor or synergize it. Also, I see ppl posting about specific builds they like. All I can say is the same Ive said above = I don’t think Im playing wrong since Ive been playing gw for years, I also think that enemies strip all of our main dmg (which is condition dmg primarily), are alerted to our presence wherever we go, and our marks and wells are something that only a moron would stand in, so they are of limited benefit. Once I am snagged I am dead = I’ve got nothing to defend with or escape with. Further, I am sick and tired of running in havoc grps in wvw capturing supply camps, mercs, sentries and once in awhile a building or two getting bags here or there while wrs or thiefs or eles or mesmers or guards get gob and gobs of bags and brag about it endlessly. Really, that;s your response? BE happy with running in havoc grps in wvw cuz we’re so viable in that limited use setting? Oh boy.

And most importantly, ppl responded that necros are not viable/wanted in zergs or pve for the following reasons, etc. (and then different reasons are posted). I’m sorry, but if anet created classes that are not wanted in the bulk of the play of all facets of this game, then that is a serious problem they should immediately address, cuz I am losing interest after years as a faithful and enthusiastic player. It should not be imbalanced period. There should not be overpowered or more desirable or more useful or more balanced classes. That sucks as concept and sucks in practice. Necro is designed for attrition? That pretty much says it all. Wtf. Y is that? It’s really offensive and makes me dislike the game even more.

Finally, moving these threads to the necromancer forum dooms the discussion, just as it does the necro class. NO ONE will read these posts cuz no one cares cuz NO ONE plays necro much anymore, and if they do, they get to feel nice and unwanted by other players and abandoned by anet. Yay, go necro.

I agree with most of this. One nitpick is that GW1 Necromancers light armor wearers as well, and that after the second expansion, heavies could trait their armor for elemental resist or anything else.

1. Power Necromancer’s need new power weapon with skillsets similar to the underwater weapons. Axe/Axe mastery needs to be buffed after the upcoming patch gives staff a second sigil.

2. Necromancer needs combo finishers and other utility on weapons. The idea of Necromancers all using minions doesn’t work and is discouraged by traits.

3. Necromancers need better ability to deal with somebody who is trying to escape the fight in order to get the fast, free, 100% OOC heal. If Necromancers can’t get more mobility, anet should consider putting pulls on a weapon, like trident has.

4. As a master of conditions with a full condition clear utility, a 5 condition transfer, and a three condition transfer, I am getting condition overwhelmed way too often. The condition removal traits should get buffed.

Necro is absolutely incredible in WvW. They ball outrageous. To even suggest otherwise is almost insulting to me as a Necro player, if I had the capacity to even really be insulted as a person.

Everything about them, really. In Zergs, you have: Wells, Lich Form, Plague Form, piercing LBs, Epidemic (organized groups might cleanse condis better, but let’s face it, you aren’t all playing organized GvG WvW exclusively), marks. Tools for days. In smaller-scale fights, you can excel as multiple different builds and absolutely destroy people with Condis or even with Power. In 1v1s, you’re intensely strong against most others as both builds as well.

Mobility is a possibility, but you have to actually sacrifice for it. If you aren’t willing to sacrifice for mobility, go play a different class. Necro just has different tools that are used differently, and I honestly think giving baked-in mobility to any weapons could be grossly OP. That’s just me though.

And to claim Condis are lackluster because people are building to counter them, you just have to actually learn how to use Condis now. Maybe the days of “apply all conditions, wait until target melts into a puddle” are gone, and you have to time/plan around cleanses. Find when a player typically cleanses and push them just below that threshold, keeping small pressure without blowing CDs until they DO cleanse. Then dive in.

In PvE, arguments can be made, but general MMO population PvE meta is something I take with a grain of salt. Conditions in general are broken in zerg-style PvE encounters, which isn’t Necro specific.

For sPvP, I don’t have enough experience, but I’d be really surprised if you couldn’t be extremely successful with a Necro.

EDIT – I had a Greatsword/Sword+Warhorn Warrior try to escape me on my Necro once. He failed, probably because he didn’t have Berserker’s Stance up at the time.

It’s incredible how effective chaining Cripple+Chill and using Dark Path is. The only class that can really escape me easily is Thief, but they can escape basically anyone really easily.

Cogbyrn.7283:

Necro is absolutely incredible in WvW. They ball outrageous. To even suggest otherwise is almost insulting to me as a Necro player, if I had the capacity to even really be insulted as a person.

Everything about them, really. In Zergs, you have: Wells, Lich Form, Plague Form, piercing LBs, Epidemic (organized groups might cleanse condis better, but let’s face it, you aren’t all playing organized GvG WvW exclusively), marks. Tools for days. In smaller-scale fights, you can excel as multiple different builds and absolutely destroy people with Condis or even with Power. In 1v1s, you’re intensely strong against most others as both builds as well.

Mobility is a possibility, but you have to actually sacrifice for it. If you aren’t willing to sacrifice for mobility, go play a different class. Necro just has different tools that are used differently, and I honestly think giving baked-in mobility to any weapons could be grossly OP. That’s just me though.

And to claim Condis are lackluster because people are building to counter them, you just have to actually learn how to use Condis now. Maybe the days of “apply all conditions, wait until target melts into a puddle” are gone, and you have to time/plan around cleanses. Find when a player typically cleanses and push them just below that threshold, keeping small pressure without blowing CDs until they DO cleanse. Then dive in.

In PvE, arguments can be made, but general MMO population PvE meta is something I take with a grain of salt. Conditions in general are broken in zerg-style PvE encounters, which isn’t Necro specific.

For sPvP, I don’t have enough experience, but I’d be really surprised if you couldn’t be extremely successful with a Necro.

EDIT – I had a Greatsword/Sword+Warhorn Warrior try to escape me on my Necro once. He failed, probably because he didn’t have Berserker’s Stance up at the time.

It’s incredible how effective chaining Cripple+Chill and using Dark Path is. The only class that can really escape me easily is Thief, but they can escape basically anyone really easily.

My guild won’t ever ask me to play my guardian over my necro in WvW.

If you think necro is bad in WvW, you’re doing something wrong.

Cogbyrn.7283:

It’s incredible how effective chaining Cripple+Chill and using Dark Path is. The only class that can really escape me easily is Thief, but they can escape basically anyone really easily.

Mobility warriors and certain ele builds can also escape with ease if they know what they are doing. In fact if you can dodge the dark path most professions have not bad chances to run from a necro.

But back to topic only in pve necros is a bit lackluster (though for most things in pve it doesnt really matter). In WvW and spvp necros are viable.

Yep, yep. To those saying Necro is amazing in WvW I completely agree. We may have to sacrifice a utility slot in order to have sufficient mobility but it’s not a hindrance to do so. Signet of The Locust or Spectral Walk are both great in their own respect. Speed in a fight, especially if you’re kiting people, can make a huge difference.
We have a ton of condition cleanses and transfers, hit like a semi on jet fuel if we’re spec’d for power, can melt through high armor low vitality opponents in seconds if condition build, and my personal favorite, we can strip boons like crazy.
Necro’s aren’t exactly “optimal” in PvE, but not many professions are. And we can still provide some awesome DPS given we know what we’re doing. But to say a Necromancer is in any way lacking in WvW or even PvP means only that you need more practice. But come the day you, or anyone else, gets a good understanding of what to use and when, you’ll be an absolute powerhouse. Necromancers are kitten near top of the food chain in WvW, we might not have many ways to chase our opponents down if they decide to run but personal experience has shown me that most people don’t get the chance to run.

Well a buff would be nice at the very least it might change how other players see necros, which frankly is my biggest issue of late far more so than the actual performance of my necro.

CureForLiving.5360:

Well a buff would be nice at the very least it might change how other players see necros, which frankly is my biggest issue of late far more so than the actual performance of my necro.

^This right here. I was hitting 85k life blasts in the dredge fractal on my necro, and at the end of the fractals run I get a whisper from someone in the party saying they were trying to kick me for being a necro and zerker necros suck…. In my build life blast is pretty much infinite…. so why kick someone that is doing the highest DPS I asked… Apparently its because necros can’t do power for jack… Just O.o

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Necro is absolutely incredible in WvW. They ball outrageous. To even suggest otherwise is almost insulting to me as a Necro player, if I had the capacity to even really be insulted as a person.

Everything about them, really. In Zergs, you have: Wells, Lich Form, Plague Form, piercing LBs, Epidemic (organized groups might cleanse condis better, but let’s face it, you aren’t all playing organized GvG WvW exclusively), marks. Tools for days. In smaller-scale fights, you can excel as multiple different builds and absolutely destroy people with Condis or even with Power. In 1v1s, you’re intensely strong against most others as both builds as well.

Mobility is a possibility, but you have to actually sacrifice for it. If you aren’t willing to sacrifice for mobility, go play a different class. Necro just has different tools that are used differently, and I honestly think giving baked-in mobility to any weapons could be grossly OP. That’s just me though.

And to claim Condis are lackluster because people are building to counter them, you just have to actually learn how to use Condis now. Maybe the days of “apply all conditions, wait until target melts into a puddle” are gone, and you have to time/plan around cleanses. Find when a player typically cleanses and push them just below that threshold, keeping small pressure without blowing CDs until they DO cleanse. Then dive in.

In PvE, arguments can be made, but general MMO population PvE meta is something I take with a grain of salt. Conditions in general are broken in zerg-style PvE encounters, which isn’t Necro specific.

For sPvP, I don’t have enough experience, but I’d be really surprised if you couldn’t be extremely successful with a Necro.

EDIT – I had a Greatsword/Sword+Warhorn Warrior try to escape me on my Necro once. He failed, probably because he didn’t have Berserker’s Stance up at the time.

It’s incredible how effective chaining Cripple+Chill and using Dark Path is. The only class that can really escape me easily is Thief, but they can escape basically anyone really easily.

My guild won’t ever ask me to play my guardian over my necro in WvW.

If you think necro is bad in WvW, you’re doing something wrong.

Did you read his post???

Well I think it’s pretty much decided that necro in WvW is great, but as far as PvE goes:

I actually think they’re pretty okay, the problems are that A. you’re limited on either being very selfish (Nemesis hybrid build and the like) or pigeonholed into a wellomancer B. you can be excluded based on the class alone simply because some of the population doesn’t understand how the class works.

Necro is great in WvW/PvP, so dunno wtf build you’re running, but it obviously isn’t working with whatever meta your server group is using.

For PvE: yes, it doesn’t fit with the current meta much, as it brings hardly any team utility aside from dps(yes, yes, weakness, vuln, blinds etc. but we’ve got that already).

shrug

Like any class, there are some areas of the game where it excels, and others where it’s downright boooooooooooooring.

I’ll be honest, if I were a commander in WvW, an all-necro zerg is a far scarier prospect to fight than any other single-classed zerg IMO.

Necros also have the best zergbreaker builds in the game. Tons of AoE weakness, poison, cripple, and even boonstrip (from Well of Corruption and Lich Form 5) means your zerg just sucks. Chilling Darkness necro popped Plague in your zerg? It makes a massive impact. Multiply it by 3 to 5? You don’t win that fight.

oh boy you can’t be more wrong with your first reason. you got death shroud that’s a +70% health pool + some pretty dam good skills.

condtions are broken across the board in regaurd to pve. their pretty strong though in wvw and spvp. it’s not a necro only problem. to answer your question it’s a hardware issue and only anet will be able to go into more detail.

condtion damage condition duration precision would probably be over looked by any respectable condtion user. it’s just not tough enough your trying to be glassy while using a style that prolongs the fight.

I wouldn’t mind a condtion damage condtion duration toughness / vitality alt though. although we do have dire which is good too. some would say too good and I have to be honest and say probably.

necros don’t need stealth hell I don’t know if they need leaps. life blast hits like a truck skill 2 in death shroud acts as a gap closer that unlike leaps isn’t hampered by soft cc.

necros are very good in spvp I run a power mancer personally and honestly it’s loads of fun. I love watch warriors think their silly little zerk stance will save them. condtion mancer is also very good with the ability to out put lots of condtions in a short time staff enable you to not only put out constant bleeds but put out constant aoe regen on allies. i’m sorry but necros are not by any standard bad at spvp.

I also ran my necro in wvw putting a well placed well or using plagues darkness plague is very effective in zergs. one for aoe blinds protection you and your allies the other just able to ruin anyone with buffs.

i’m not being sarcastic nor rude but i’m going to be honest your argument has absolutely no merit to a lot of your points on the necro.

Poplolita.2638:

Roe.3679:

Cogbyrn.7283:

Necro is absolutely incredible in WvW. They ball outrageous. To even suggest otherwise is almost insulting to me as a Necro player, if I had the capacity to even really be insulted as a person.

Everything about them, really. In Zergs, you have: Wells, Lich Form, Plague Form, piercing LBs, Epidemic (organized groups might cleanse condis better, but let’s face it, you aren’t all playing organized GvG WvW exclusively), marks. Tools for days. In smaller-scale fights, you can excel as multiple different builds and absolutely destroy people with Condis or even with Power. In 1v1s, you’re intensely strong against most others as both builds as well.

Mobility is a possibility, but you have to actually sacrifice for it. If you aren’t willing to sacrifice for mobility, go play a different class. Necro just has different tools that are used differently, and I honestly think giving baked-in mobility to any weapons could be grossly OP. That’s just me though.

And to claim Condis are lackluster because people are building to counter them, you just have to actually learn how to use Condis now. Maybe the days of “apply all conditions, wait until target melts into a puddle” are gone, and you have to time/plan around cleanses. Find when a player typically cleanses and push them just below that threshold, keeping small pressure without blowing CDs until they DO cleanse. Then dive in.

In PvE, arguments can be made, but general MMO population PvE meta is something I take with a grain of salt. Conditions in general are broken in zerg-style PvE encounters, which isn’t Necro specific.

For sPvP, I don’t have enough experience, but I’d be really surprised if you couldn’t be extremely successful with a Necro.

EDIT – I had a Greatsword/Sword+Warhorn Warrior try to escape me on my Necro once. He failed, probably because he didn’t have Berserker’s Stance up at the time.

It’s incredible how effective chaining Cripple+Chill and using Dark Path is. The only class that can really escape me easily is Thief, but they can escape basically anyone really easily.

My guild won’t ever ask me to play my guardian over my necro in WvW.

If you think necro is bad in WvW, you’re doing something wrong.

Did you read his post???

You mean where he said Necros are incredible in WvW and then I agreed? Did you read his post? Or was it mine that you didn’t read?

More on point I can see where PVE necros have some legit complaints. But not in WvW.

not sure if it was said above, we have light field on WoB because light field+projectile removes condi. if you choose WoB over Consume Conditions, then you dont have condi removal on heal. With Staff #1 (unreliable) you can cleanse a condi, or if you have bone fiend who shoots 2 projectiles per attack. Blasting it if you are minion mancer gives all your minions retaliation, priceless in pvp if the enemy hits you with aoe. Also a ranger using longbow #2 or a warrior longbow auto att through a well of blood can cleanse aaaaaalot
Also the dark fields proc life steal on projectile…(not sure if bone fiends projectiles give hp to the caster) and the heal from each projectile is around 200 i think….so blasting water is better with our slow projectiles. Blasting dark field gives blind, not so bad…

in wvw necro is a BIG must in any zerg in any gvg runs.

in pve meeeeeh who cares make ur own party.

OH I guess I just suck – you’ve all convinced me that Im the prob and necro is WONDERFUL. I guess when the next person kicks me or blasts me in wvw Ill just send them here. Ill spend another 500 g on another set of ascended armor and retool my build for the 40th time and see if I can achieve the awesomeness that you all describe. I must just be incredibly DUMB after 9 years playing pvp/wvw with advanced titles . I must not know wtf I’m doing or talking about. Sorry everyone. Ill just do a reset. Anet must have thought this out carefully, and obviously all of you have figured something else I didn’t.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

OH I guess I just suck – you’ve all convinced me that Im the prob and necro is WONDERFUL. I guess when the next person kicks me or blasts me in wvw Ill just send them here. Ill spend another 500 g on another set of ascended armor and retool my build for the 40th time and see if I can achieve the awesomeness that you all describe. I must just be incredibly DUMB after 9 years playing pvp/wvw with advanced titles . I must not know wtf I’m doing or talking about. Sorry everyone. Ill just do a reset. Anet must have thought this out carefully, and obviously all of you have figured something else I didn’t.

I think your attitude is getting in the way of your performance. You also seem to think Ascended gear is necessary to perform, which is laughable. My back is Ascended, that’s about it. I’ve always just used Exotic, will continue to always just use Exotic, for mega cheap.

If anyone kicks/blasts you in WvW before playing with you, then they’re big idiots. If they kick you after a period of time, then yes, you are the problem. Your 9 years of experience playing other games means nothing to me, and the fact that you tout it as a badge of honor means it’s probably also getting in your way. You seem to assume that you should do well, then when you don’t do well, it’s the game’s fault.

Terrible attitude. Fix it, maybe you’ll improve. Or wait for the next MMO to see if you can actually do well in that one.

Until then, if you come onto a forum that is notorious for complaining about this/that/the other, and you get totally shut down hard about something, perhaps you should rethink your drink.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

OH I guess I just suck – you’ve all convinced me that Im the prob and necro is WONDERFUL. I guess when the next person kicks me or blasts me in wvw Ill just send them here. Ill spend another 500 g on another set of ascended armor and retool my build for the 40th time and see if I can achieve the awesomeness that you all describe. I must just be incredibly DUMB after 9 years playing pvp/wvw with advanced titles . I must not know wtf I’m doing or talking about. Sorry everyone. Ill just do a reset. Anet must have thought this out carefully, and obviously all of you have figured something else I didn’t.

Looks like someone needs a time out.

Some people may not get how to play a necro. You can’t play it like a class that has escapes, positioning is very key, and I see so many enemy necros who really don’t utilize death shroud like they should or could. If you’re doing so poorly then I would bet you have a poor spec or you’re trying to play like another class, which you can’t do. But I would suspect this is actually a L2P issue.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

OH I guess I just suck – you’ve all convinced me that Im the prob and necro is WONDERFUL. I guess when the next person kicks me or blasts me in wvw Ill just send them here. Ill spend another 500 g on another set of ascended armor and retool my build for the 40th time and see if I can achieve the awesomeness that you all describe. I must just be incredibly DUMB after 9 years playing pvp/wvw with advanced titles . I must not know wtf I’m doing or talking about. Sorry everyone. Ill just do a reset. Anet must have thought this out carefully, and obviously all of you have figured something else I didn’t.

I just read your first post in this thread again and I failed to get what you describe as ‘being ineffective’.
In a zerg you should use your staff, wells and DS to dish out massive AOE damage. From what I read you perceive marks to be useless. Granted they don’t scale well with power with enough crit rate and a Sigil of Fire I can do about 1-2k AOE dmg per mark.
Couple that with WoC and WoS + Focused Rituals and you have a decent ranged dmg build that should tag a lot of enemies. I personally use Charrzooka for that extra AOE dmg burst.
Tbh I played a dire/rabid condi necro the last few days and I still got a good amount of loot bags. It might have to do with your positioning.

This is strictly zerg fighting tho. Roaming/havoc is a whole ’nother beast.

Having just started playing the game (and only just now hitting 80 on my necro) I can say I don’t see it as bad as most of you say. I can time my combo fields properly so I’m not overwriting the “good” ones that everyone prefers. Our fields really don’t last long enough to be much of a hindrance if you just time them right and coordinate with your group. Conditions are what they are. Saying they are useless because they are perma cleansed is not what I see (not in WvWvW anyway). I see them being cleansed at a frustrating rate, but that only lasts so long. The longer the fight goes on the more my conditions seems to take hold and wear them down. Knowing that I don’t blow my best moves on them right away. I wait until they have blown their best ones, then I lay down the pain. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than unloading everything I have then wondering why nothing is working.

As for finishers I think we could use more variety of them, but the ones we have are ok. I finally accepted the fact I have no mobility and I try to plan my fights around that. If I get caught, whatever I got caught I die I respawn. I was expecting it anyway.

The only real problem I have that is making my play sour for necros is the pve part. I find myself mostly useless in pve. Especially dungeons. My damage seems so much lower than the other classes I have tried, most of my cc goes unneeded, my best tricks are useless on bosses with those immune stacks on them, and people will either kick me right away or abuse me for the grunt work of the dungeon then kick me at the end. I read some of the new stuff coming for necros in the patch and it sounds like necros will be getting some much needed work but only mostly for pvp and a little bit for WvWvW and mostly nothing for pve.

This is just my take on it from someone who hasn’t played the class since the “good ole days”

The biggest problem is, we were suppose to be ‘attrition’. We were suppose to drag the fights out because the longer we were in combat, the better off we were. That’s why we had no gap closers or escape, we were suppose to facetank till they ran off or one of us dropped.
We were suppose to be ‘condi-manipulation’.

They removed DS being able to suck up a hit of any size, and gave us no endurance regen/dodge on weapon/invul. (Only class in the game to ONLY have 2 dodge’s and no other avoid dam)

They removed foot in the grave giving us perm stability in DS, and made it 3 seconds. Without even a brake free, giving it a hugely easy counter with knockback. Biggest prob here is we need to attack to build defense, so CC is double shutdown for us.

They capped Boon to Condi so it became mostly irreverent.

They removed staff transferring condi’s off allies, and nerfed it to only 3 off of us, without even saying anything.

That put us at the very bottom of the attrition & pointless at condi manipulation.
Were arguably ‘king’ of condi application. But while the game only allows small max stacks that can be done by 1 player, or accidentally by 5 with bleed on crit etc… While you can’t apply condi’s to objects… It’s only good for solo play, but even in PvP as a necro, you require group to ‘peel’ other players off, as we have no escape, terrible attrition & totally destroyed by CC.
The other biggie is the amount of extra stuff to counter condi’s in the game. From food with no anti-crit or anti-power equiv, to Ele’s being immune over 90% life, and Eng’s being immune under 25%.

As for combo’s… What finishers do we have? Minions & a chance on staff auto-attack…
What combo fields do we have that are wanted? Poison that we apply anyway?

Minions… Oh my, there broken AGAIN so they usually don’t attack?!! No ’stop standing in lava, no reduced AoE kitten o underwater elite, full CD on PvP death.
In PvE they upscale the elites/champions/events as tho each minion was another player!

Death Shroud. They removed weapon swapping, so we can’t even play with different runes in combat. The damage of the attacks runs off our main hand weapon, requiring you to use a staff or have lots less dam. Then there’s no condi-cleanse, no utils. Because of no heals, it’s detrimental to use it to keep yourself going after a burst of damage, as your going to miss out on the group heals.
Then the bug were you don’t get your heal button or utils back for 1sec+lag after leaving DS.
Then, there’s the DS CoolDown on entering, and then exiting DS. Meaning if your using a build that generates ok life force, your better of waiting for you energy to drain to drop out of DS than leaving it yourself. (On top of bugs like DS#4 healing you if you time it to happen as you run out of LF)
Even more insulting with it, the pretty green orbs of LifeForce, are ignored if your in DS, meaning if there wasn’t a new CD on exit, there would be skilled play by leaving DS just as things died to suck there life force.

Power. Melee range, without the perks of being like other melee and getting cleave. (In light armor, with no attrition)
Oh and dagger auto-attack being best if most boring. (You could ague for axe #2, it’s nice burst vs mobs, but any good PvP’er knows if they dodge that very easy to see attack, they avoid our big burst & our only life force gen with that weapon. Double win for them)

Anyway, our only real role is, PvP-WvW throw more condi’s than can be cleansed.

Bweaty.9187:

The biggest problem is, we were suppose to be ‘attrition’. We were suppose to drag the fights out because the longer we were in combat, the better off we were. That’s why we had no gap closers or escape, we were suppose to facetank till they ran off or one of us dropped.
We were suppose to be ‘condi-manipulation’.

They removed DS being able to suck up a hit of any size, and gave us no endurance regen/dodge on weapon/invul. (Only class in the game to ONLY have 2 dodge’s and no other avoid dam)

They removed foot in the grave giving us perm stability in DS, and made it 3 seconds. Without even a brake free, giving it a hugely easy counter with knockback. Biggest prob here is we need to attack to build defense, so CC is double shutdown for us.

They capped Boon to Condi so it became mostly irreverent.

They removed staff transferring condi’s off allies, and nerfed it to only 3 off of us, without even saying anything.

That put us at the very bottom of the attrition & pointless at condi manipulation.
Were arguably ‘king’ of condi application. But while the game only allows small max stacks that can be done by 1 player, or accidentally by 5 with bleed on crit etc… While you can’t apply condi’s to objects… It’s only good for solo play, but even in PvP as a necro, you require group to ‘peel’ other players off, as we have no escape, terrible attrition & totally destroyed by CC.
The other biggie is the amount of extra stuff to counter condi’s in the game. From food with no anti-crit or anti-power equiv, to Ele’s being immune over 90% life, and Eng’s being immune under 25%.

As for combo’s… What finishers do we have? Minions & a chance on staff auto-attack…
What combo fields do we have that are wanted? Poison that we apply anyway?

Minions… Oh my, there broken AGAIN so they usually don’t attack?!! No ’stop standing in lava, no reduced AoE kitten o underwater elite, full CD on PvP death.
In PvE they upscale the elites/champions/events as tho each minion was another player!

Death Shroud. They removed weapon swapping, so we can’t even play with different runes in combat. The damage of the attacks runs off our main hand weapon, requiring you to use a staff or have lots less dam. Then there’s no condi-cleanse, no utils. Because of no heals, it’s detrimental to use it to keep yourself going after a burst of damage, as your going to miss out on the group heals.
Then the bug were you don’t get your heal button or utils back for 1sec+lag after leaving DS.
Then, there’s the DS CoolDown on entering, and then exiting DS. Meaning if your using a build that generates ok life force, your better of waiting for you energy to drain to drop out of DS than leaving it yourself. (On top of bugs like DS#4 healing you if you time it to happen as you run out of LF)
Even more insulting with it, the pretty green orbs of LifeForce, are ignored if your in DS, meaning if there wasn’t a new CD on exit, there would be skilled play by leaving DS just as things died to suck there life force.

Power. Melee range, without the perks of being like other melee and getting cleave. (In light armor, with no attrition)
Oh and dagger auto-attack being best if most boring. (You could ague for axe #2, it’s nice burst vs mobs, but any good PvP’er knows if they dodge that very easy to see attack, they avoid our big burst & our only life force gen with that weapon. Double win for them)

Anyway, our only real role is, PvP-WvW throw more condi’s than can be cleansed.

They did all those things, and in my opinion, the class is still quite strong.

So, there’s that.

Eater of Peeps.9062:

OH I guess I just suck – you’ve all convinced me that Im the prob and necro is WONDERFUL. I guess when the next person kicks me or blasts me in wvw Ill just send them here. Ill spend another 500 g on another set of ascended armor and retool my build for the 40th time and see if I can achieve the awesomeness that you all describe. I must just be incredibly DUMB after 9 years playing pvp/wvw with advanced titles . I must not know wtf I’m doing or talking about. Sorry everyone. Ill just do a reset. Anet must have thought this out carefully, and obviously all of you have figured something else I didn’t.

This post makes it painfully obvious what the obstacle you can’t get past is.

L2P issues: You need to learn how to win!
But Gw2 do not help to Necros to learn how to play.

Necro isnt terrible. But it is the worst class in pve and it has problems in certain aspects of pvp and wvw. I wouldnt recommend rolling one for pve thats for sure.

If the class forums taught me anything, its that the devs in charge of class balance are terrible at their job.

Well… yeah… as people said, we are desirable in at least WvW though.
If we are talking guild groups, I’m pretty sure every group looks for several necro’s. Granted, most often this will be power/crit specs for larger scale fights.
If you want, you could check out this video – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bZPfQsX-6tg – basically everytime you see me placing wells or using plague, it has been called for by the raidlead. In this video I run almost full berserker armor/trinkets.

I like necro a lot. It has become my favorite class but I can’t stand our lack of stun breaks, condition cap, and slower mobility is a big issue. Roaming in wvw if I get caught by a group of 4 I am pretty much done for because I can’t just get away like thief, warrior, elementalists etc.

Why don’t they give more mobility options to necromancers? I don’t understand why not. I see heavy armor warriors that can do just as good damage as I do leave or join fights at the speed of light. Thief can reset a fight and comeback at me over and over and over and they do just as much damage as I do.

I hear it’s because we have 2 healthbars but the life force bar just delays the inevitable. I try the worm to escape but it has a cast time and is clumsy.

Are warriors too fragile for combat so they get the best escape moves in the game while necromancer is supposed to be the tankiest? Then why give use light armor if we are supposed to be so tanky?

WHY CANT WE GET STUNBREAKS or MOBILITY or STEALTH? WHY? Give me a kitten death gate to let me walk in the spirit world for 3 seconds or something and not be seen for 3 seconds on a 30 sec cooldown, or some kind of blink on a 30 sec cd or something like mesmer staff 2 or something. Mesmer do just as much damage as I do why are they so slippery but I’m a sitting duck. Come on!

Niko.8901:

WHY CANT WE GET STUNBREAKS or MOBILITY or STEALTH? WHY?

Because we are supposed to be an ‘attrition’ class, which in Anets words means: ‘Facetank till you drop.’ I think someone needs to send them a dictionary.

Niko.8901:

Give me a kitten death gate to let me walk in the spirit world for 3 seconds or something […]

The actual reason I’m posting is because I just wanted to express the joy I felt when I imagined how this skill would look/work.

Still won’t happen ever though.

adding some confusion and cc skills with a new weapon (maybe sword) could add some new depth to the class for pve. I think the main problem is that conditions are too weak in large groups. Perhaps necros need some unique conditions or ways to extend or enhance existing ones beyond just stacking more (maybe a vulnerability condition that effects condition duration and damage). I remember Anet saying that all the boons were designed as counterparts to conditions, what about a skill that provides aoe boons based on the conditions an enemy has.

I have a necro alt (lvl 50) and so far I’m loving it. It’s definetly a learning curve over maining a Warrior though. That being said, I have yet to encounter any negative feedback in WvW or PvE, don’t PvP much at all. And while I’m still learning the class, and have a long way to go, I can see them being quite powerful if used correctly. Where the “elitists” are concerned, “zerk/heavy only” pugs, etc. Ignore them. I get the same reaction from Warriors because I refuse to run the current meta build.

You can’t please everyone, so why not continue playing your necro, take the time to learn ALL the ins and outs yourself, and have fun? The people only wanting a specific group type are free to do that, thats part of the LFG system. Don’t join those groups and expect not to get kicked or yelled at. I’ve run several dungeon groups with my necro and never had any problems. I’ve also had several necros in groups with no issues. Taking in, or being a necro, in a group requires a different play style. Improvise, adapt, and overcome.

I have one of every class and I mostly WvW. My main is a necro. If you play within a group or zerg setting. we are simply AoE Gods. Elementilist’s may be able to produce bigger bursts but sustained AoE output belongs to the necro. The best part is that when necessary you can even roll with the tanks as long as you have stability.

yea i dont know why but always i loss agaist 2 builds as necro:

mesmer condition damage: dont know why they make a conditioner that can move whithout taking any dmg (stealth) from far! and evading all ur atacks and rly hard to aim…

warrior condition damager: why the heal! u are necro u got condi control?… RLY? then why the folk this build just kill me in no time just changing a bit things, like 8 second damage inmunity, and they do 25 bleed stacks (that i always evade, and still loss) in 4 seconds. The block torment, the healing (when they use settler they are monsters), the condition remobal (shouts)… u can transfer all the condis but they will make you have same in half time lol!

necro at 1v1 sox please fix it a net we are sufering as experienced players.
I dont know why this just hapen to necros << while all others classes can beat all otheres builds if they build just diferent. so bad… well i got an idea after all A NEW BUFF: that make yours atack unavoidable and unblockable and no removable (if they are conditions).

All I can really say is that I was hoping for a cleave. I have a blast as a powermancer despite everything wrong (playing in pve) but I really, really had my fingers crossed that they’d give us what literally every other class had on AA. Abusing Life Transfer just is not an acceptable answer for trash mobs.

mooty.4560:

Necromancers are excellent in PvP play.

They lack evasion skills/leaps/a solid gap closer so they’re a bit pokey in WvW and this also makes them prime targets when outnumbered in a group fight, but they have very strong CC and some hard hitting offense.

I don’t want to sound like a jerk here, but a necro can hold it’s own, so you’re not doing it right.

Agreed. It takes practice, but necros are powerful in PvP. And they do well in WvW (then again, I don’t use a staff in WvW).

Shameless self promotion but this is a video I made of myself on a power tank necro and a mesmer fighting against 4 enemies on a bloodlust node in WvW. Necromancer can absolutely be effective.