Guild Wars 2

HeNkitten& Bull Zooker.
The two of you evidently didn’t read my disclaimer at the top of the page, you didn’t get the entirely of my point.
It has nothing to do with power or build variety, but rather fun factor and class-defining skills and abilities that were present in GW1, that are largely absent or watered down in GW2.
I understand why many of the things that were unique to the old Necro had to go, but they should have been replaced by SOMETHING, and they were not.
If you like it, fine. But some of us have standards.

Ramiah, by subtle do you mean non-existent?
I’m joking, but compared to other professions that are loud about their own uniqueness, why on earth is only the Necro subtle about it?
It should be up their with the other professions at a top of a mountain, screaming “I am a Necromancer!”.
Not whimpering in the corner sucking it’s thumb.

Besides this, I notice a few people are getting a bit off topic, talking about build variations and the lack there of, which wasn’t really my point. The fact is there is less skills and build variety in GW2 as a whole then it GW1, and this was deliberate and needed for balance.
But that being said, it doesn’t mean what we do have should be fun, and that many of the Necromancer skills and traits just aren’t all that useful, let alone fun or interesting.
Thou that could probably be said for all professions, which I why I didn’t want to take that tact in the first place.

That’s more of a balance issue, where I’m trying to get at more fundamental problems.

One thing the thread didn’t mention was signets. They were a part of the necro class identity, since GW1 necro signets were hard to use. They require timing and experience to use.

1) Back in GW1 necro signets were defined by ZERO energy cost but with longer recharge than regular energy costing skills.

This no longer applies in GW2. None of the necro skills uses energy anyways. So there is no longer any difference between activating signets and activating regular skills.

There is no benefits or disadvantages of using a signet when compared to other skills. So in a way, it is pointless to even separate out this line of signet skills. The only thing unique about the signets is their passive, which brings me to my next point.

The recharge of many GW2 signets are out of this world. Back in GW1 the longest recharge time on a signet was 30 seconds. In GW2 the shortest recharge is 60 seconds. Because of this, the only reason why anyone would take a signet (other than Undeath) is for its passive effects.

2) Back in GW1 necros signets takes player skills and experience to use. Many requires life sacrifice. Others require specific timing for maximum effect.

Signet of Lost Souls and Signet of Sorrow and prime examples of this.

In GW2 that’s no longer the case. Honestly none of the signets are that hard to use.

I had talk to many about necro signets. Everyone agrees (100%) that these signets (besides Undeath) just suck, period.

There are other types of skills that were watered down in GW2. But I want to look at signets because the difference between GW1 signets and GW2 signets are night and day. It demonstrates and contributes to the reasoning of the disappearances of the necro’s unique class identity.

I used to main a necro in GW1. I agree with everything you say Yoh.

That said I still main a necro, but I play it entirely differently. I wanted to be a MM necro like i had been.

Instead I am using a dagger with zerker specs. Wat.

At least, if I am going to be a physical fighter, I’d like to have a more ‘death knight’ motiff, with a 2 handed physical weapon. I’d love a scythe but at this point I’ll take anything.

Though I had an idea. We could just get a elite skill that when activated replaces our staff skills with scythe skills, and generates the scythe effect continuously. The scythe skills could use our spear skills. Deactivating the elite puts you back to regular staff bar but activates weapon swap timer. Also activates 30 sec timer on elite skill so you can’t abuse it for certain effects from runes. Also weapon swapping deactivates the elite and puts it on CD.

So it would be a big tradeoff. You would get a set of powerful melee abilities but woud give up the elite slot and make weapon swapping less flexible.

Just popping in to make a quick clarification here to CHIP’s post.

All signets in GW1 had zero energy cost attached to them. The exception to this were some Necromancer Signets had a health sacrifice cost attached to them. I do realize CHIPs didn’t likely intend for it to sound like only Necromancer Signets had 0 energy costs, but the wording I found to be confusing enough for anybody unfamiliar with GW1 that I thought I’d post some clarification.

Also to be a nit pick Ether Signet had a Recharge of 45 seconds as well as Signet of Strength. I added this because I found it out when I went to make sure there weren’t any signets with Adrenaline costs before I posted my clarification. More of a ‘things you learn’ kind of thing. Anyways, overall still in agreement that recharge time on the vast majority of GW2 signets are extremely punitive for little gain, even when used correctly.

I’d also point out that Keystone Signet builds were laughably easy to use. Barbed Signet after its re-work was also an extremely simple signet to use (though the benefits were so much better than the previous iteration). Signets and using them =/= skill in all scenarios.

Anyways, for anybody wanting to learn more about signets from GW1 should go here. Overall CHIPs was spot on with the design change to them, and I’m left in agreement that

Yeah, about Signets, I did mention them in passing.
I like the new signets to be honest, and they kind of had to be changed since energy no longer exists.
I just don’t give the Necromancer any credit for having them, as they are something most professions have anyway, and while they were a little more class defining in GW1, I don’t see having any more or less then what we have now is going to fix anything.

Signet wise, what we have now is fine. It’s everything else that’s the problem.

i never played gw1 but the idea of having an army is quite appealing. i currently don’t mind the Death Shroud since i use (4) for healing my minions and doing auto target aoe dmg. i guess the only issue i had was with necro’s and pretty much every class is skill animation. we have little skills yet they are not flashy. except the ele’s meteor. in regards to the necro. i just want more animations. i was thinking making the marks have the animations the wells have or something similar. it being a white circle with a icon in the middle isn’t really interesting. seeing as i spam marks all day.

i also must add. the wurm we use. it honestly should move…. nothing wrong with burrowing into the ground and popping out to deal some dmg. im completly fine if its nerfed in dmg. but the teleport and poison part stays.

Edit: regardless im somewhat content with the way necro is. minons have becomes summoned monsters and require your Marks or Death Shroud to keep alive. i just kinda wish there were more types of monsters to summon. each doing something different.

Too much has been fundamentally changed in GW2 to support GW1 like play. The non-instanced zones means that skills need to scale to an everybody level, and the fact that there are no hexes means that by design you cannot have complex skills (either that or all hexes would need to be conditions, which doesn’t make sense).

Played every profession, mostly play spvp, also wvw. Necr and thief are the most fun professions in my opinion

All those skills that only does damage and nothing else need an overhaul. These skills should be changed to help the necro identity. Other than auto attacks, none of the skills should be fire and forget.

Life Blast – Boring.
Ghastly Claws – boringest skill in the game, by far.
Feast of Corruption – Boring
Haunt- Boring

I won’t mind of some of these skills got changed into minion skills, life siphoning skills, or special curse skills (cannot be removed).

Many other skills also should be adjusted to help necro identity. But I won’t list them all.

Swamurabi.7890:

There’s a lot of actions in GW2 that correspond to what Necros could do in GW1.

A GW1 BiP Necro was energy management. In GW2, energy management (except thief) is done through cooldowns. A GW2 Necro could have a trait that reduces allies CD’s. Now see how many people want necros on teams.

There were so many things wrong with your post, but this was the most obvious. In GW2 this ability is called Chill, we can keep it up permanently on a target. We also can keep up weakness and blind, but hey who needs to read tooltips when we can type long pages of rants.

Finally, the current meta in tournaments is Necro/Ele/Mesmer/Guardian and whatever else you have. There isn’t a high end team that doesn’t carry a Necro, but hey who needs to talk to actual players when we can type 300 words of rants comparing it to a GW1 class.

Bas.7406:

Swamurabi.7890:

There’s a lot of actions in GW2 that correspond to what Necros could do in GW1.

A GW1 BiP Necro was energy management. In GW2, energy management (except thief) is done through cooldowns. A GW2 Necro could have a trait that reduces allies CD’s. Now see how many people want necros on teams.

There were so many things wrong with your post, but this was the most obvious. In GW2 this ability is called Chill, we can keep it up permanently on a target. We also can keep up weakness and blind, but hey who needs to read tooltips when we can type long pages of rants.

Finally, the current meta in tournaments is Necro/Ele/Mesmer/Guardian and whatever else you have. There isn’t a high end team that doesn’t carry a Necro, but hey who needs to talk to actual players when we can type 300 words of rants comparing it to a GW1 class.

The problem is that you don’t read what you quoted.. Chill increases enemies cooldowns. Which we can keep up permanently in a way, but it would need to be a 2v1 situation for that to be effective and then you might as well pick any other class/condition instead(confusion for example). Not only that, other classes have chill as well, making this another generic point.
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I like how you made snide remarks instead of addressing his entire quote. Also, I love self proclaimed meta’s.

Empiren.6401:

I like how you made snide remarks instead of addressing his entire quote. Also, I love self proclaimed meta’s.

Edit: You are right Empiren. I read it as enemy cooldown and not ally cooldown sorry about that.

I don’t have a self-proclaimed Meta. This meta was given to me by Symbolic, Khalifa, Battoosai, Danto, Zombify, and several other players who run with full time teams and all of them have over 2000 tournament games played. I have stated this before. I dont’ think of anything myself I simply know the guys who do and pass it on.

If you listen to the Symbolic and Khalifa Necro podcasts you would catch how they reference tournament pvp and it’s current meta state. In fact, they stated that the meta only stays that way because it’s the easiest to roll and when more players start playing competitively again it may change.

We will be having an NA Tournament and EU Tournament update podcast coming soon where we will discuss this exact point.

I never played GW1 but even I noticed that there is not one thing a Necromancer can do in GW2 that other professions cannot do in their own way. That alone is the greatest let-down in the job. If Arenanet wanted to make the Necromancer a curse-tank with slow damage output but high survivability, why keep buffing damage output and movement speed? It is like Necromancer is becoming more like other professions rather than becoming more distinctive.

Necromancer does not have a special curse of its own. I have tried suggesting ones that are not OP and cost trait points. A lot of people have asked for unique things but there is no reason to expect that Necromancer will ever be distinctive compared to other professions. Rather, I suspect all the professions will become more alike as balancing continues.

What was so wrong about having a holy trinity, anyway, as long as each profession is equally capable of solo PvE? Maybe that is the real difficulty. I like relying upon one profession for boons, another for curses, a third for short-range dps, a forth for long-range dps, and so on. That is a really difficult balancing act; especially if all professions are supposed to be able to solo the same missions in their own way.

Perhaps my expectations were not well aligned with the idea of choosing a fixed profession and having it be unique at the same time. It seems like half the builds on this forum focus on trying to make Necromancer into a Warrior, Guardian, Ranger, or other professions. It is amazing that this job can do that, to some extent, but I have to wonder at the OP’s point; that Necromancer is boring because it really is a lot like other professions and less like what the OP experienced in GW1.

I completely agree with you OP, I myself always lean towards summoning classes and was a bit disappointed by the necromancer.

- I personally find a lot of the necromancer spells visually underwhelming especially when compared to the likes of Elementalists and Mesmers.

- One of my biggest annoyances with the necromancer is that 4/5 of our staff abilities are “traps”. I would’ve like much more versatility as the other staff using professions.

- Finally, all professions get more access to a particular mechanic/boon/debuff; thieves get stealth, guardians get aegis and my favourite mesmers get reflect etc. We get fear, and whilst I suppose the concept is good from my experience it’s not particularly helpful.

Hey Bas, welcome, glad we could have you.
What do you make of all this? Since you like the Necro more then most.

Also, this is where my position and CHIPS’s diverge, as he’s starting to get into the weeds a bit and go off on functionality, balance, and individual skills, which really isn’t my point.
Sure some skills are going to be underwhelming, but that can be said of every profession. And whether a profession is balanced or not is irrelevant when it comes to fun factor and uniqueness, which is at the core of my argument.

So try to stay on topic guys.

Also, is it unreasonable of me to expect that maybe a developer would weigh in?
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Doubt it.

I hope arenanet see this post. It is very well put together, has valid points, and it’s positive feed back. I understand that Arenanet wants to step out of the box with this game and show that they are an innovative company with the many different ideas that they have brought into this game, however, if the players aren’t enjoying something I do definitely think they should listen to the players. Necromancer is definitely not what it used to be and in some cases this can be good or a bad thing. There are just some mechanics about it that doesn’t make the class click or put it on par with some of the other classes.

+1 rep from me. Good post OP.

Yoh, I disagree with what you’ve posted here.

For one thing, “fun factor” is subjective. Personally I think the necromancer is the most fun of all GW2’s classes. You spend a lot of time talking about how awesome the GW1 necromancer was. I think you are looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. Whenever there is a sequel to something, be it a movie, book, or game, there are always people that will argue that the old way was better. I am not saying that you are an old man on a porch, shaking your cane, yelling that them darn new things the kids are doin’ nowadays, but I think your expectations of what you think the necro should be are holding you back from enjoying the class.

Your second point is about uniqueness. What is your definition of the word “unique”? You appear to define that word specifically in the context of GW1 were there were hundreds of different skills that all did different things, then you look at GW2’s combat system with that definition in mind and find that it doesn’t match that definition. Which is faulty reasoning. For example, you talk about how hexes have been removed and how awesome they are in GW1. Well, you could say the same things about any of the classes’ skills, really. All of the classes have been watered down from GW1 to create their GW2 counterparts, so to focus specifically on the necromancer in that regard seems incorrect to me.

On the skill level, necros actually have a good bit of uniqueness:
- Marks (which you said you liked)
- The majority of our ranged damage isn’t projectile-based, meaning it can’t be reflected or absorbed (see Axe, Scepter, marks, focus 5, dagger 5, warhorn 4)
- Best class at condition management and best boon ripper. Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Signet, staff 4, dagger 4, focus 5
- If other classes want a gap-closer or interrupt, they have to trait for it or take certain weapons. Necros get them for free in every build.

On the build level, necros have even greater uniqueness. I won’t go into all the builds here because that would take too long and you said you’re not looking for a discussion of viable builds. So I’ll just reiterate that your definition of what is and isn’t unique is flawed because of your expectation of how GW2 should be. Maybe you simply like GW1 better than GW2, that’s fine. But to come here and say that the necromancer is a bad class because it’s not as good as its GW1 counterpart when the games’ combat systems are completely different is a flawed argument.

One last point: you spend a lot of time going through every trait line, weapon, and skill category, and many of your points are correct. But I think one of the most fun, unique things about the necromancer is that it is greater than the sum of its parts. All of those problems fade into the background when you put them together and create a kitten build, and finding and playing those builds is the most rewarding thing about this game for me, and it’s something I don’t find in any of the other classes.

Yoh.8469:

Hey Bas, welcome, glad we could have you.
What do you make of all this? Since you like the Necro more then most.

Also, this is where my position and CHIPS’s diverge, as he’s starting to get into the weeds a bit and go off on functionality, balance, and individual skills, which really isn’t my point.
Sure some skills are going to be underwhelming, but that can be said of every profession. And whether a profession is balanced or not is irrelevant when it comes to fun factor and uniqueness, which is at the core of my argument.

So try to stay on topic guys.

Also, is it unreasonable of me to expect that maybe a developer would weigh in?
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Doubt it.

I do agree that overall theme is the most important. I was just pointing out examples as to why the necro profession feels boring, uninspired and unimaginative.

My basic idea is that:

-those skills/themes that aren’t unique are boring.
-those skills/themes that does nothing but damage are boring.
-those skills/themes that you cannot learn how to use them better are boring.

lettucemode.3789:

Yoh, I disagree with what you’ve posted here.

I don’t think anyone is arguing they want the GW1 necro back 100%. We understand that a lot of the old stuff are gone. But the GW2 necro got no new, fun and unique abilities and themes to replace what was gone. At the same time many professions got new replacement skills.

For example:

-thieve got stealth, new+fun+unique.
-memser got clones, shatter and portal, new+fun+unique.
-eles got very high mobility, using 20+ skills at once and can still nuke, new+fun+unique.

And in GW2 many of the skills and themes are lackluster. I will use your examples directly:

On the skill level, necros actually have a good bit of uniqueness:
- Marks (which you said you liked) new=yes, fun=no, unique=no
- The majority of our ranged damage isn’t projectile-based, meaning it can’t be reflected or absorbed (see Axe, Scepter, marks, focus 5, dagger 5, warhorn 4) new=yes, fun=no, unique=no
- Best class at condition management and best boon ripper. Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Signet, staff 4, dagger 4, focus 5 new=yes, fun=yes, unique=yes
- If other classes want a gap-closer or interrupt, they have to trait for it or take certain weapons. Necros get them for free in every build.new=yes, fun=yes, unique=yes

So out of all your examples, only condition controls and DS fits the new+fun+unique requirement. And those are pretty much the theme of the GW2 necro. This is very limiting.

Back in GW1 we got a lot of new+fun+unique themes. LIfe stealing, life/power balancing, true minion master, curses and soul reaping. So that means if a necro player do not like minion master, he might like life/power balancing and so he stays as a necro.

As for GW2, one question you got to ask is, what if a player do not like condition controls and DS? What else does necromancer offer them?

Nothing much.

The next thing we can recommend then is go play another class, since condition control and DS is all the necro has to offer.

Which is bad.

That’s why Anet got to give us something new+fun+unique, that we can present to a player to convince him/her to stay as a necro.

lettucemode.3789:

On the skill level, necros actually have a good bit of uniqueness:
- Marks (which you said you liked)
- The majority of our ranged damage isn’t projectile-based, meaning it can’t be reflected or absorbed (see Axe, Scepter, marks, focus 5, dagger 5, warhorn 4)
- Best class at condition management and best boon ripper. Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Signet, staff 4, dagger 4, focus 5
- If other classes want a gap-closer or interrupt, they have to trait for it or take certain weapons. Necros get them for free in every build.

I had totally forgotten about these unique aspects. I think the main complaint is that the capabilities of a necromancer are similar to other classes. Additionally, necromancers don’t bring anything unique to a team.
The truth about Guild Wars 2 is that NONE of the classes bring any major aspect that can’t be filled by another class. This is the first major game in the history of MMOs to do this. Most see this as a triumph in design because certain aspects of the game, particularly team roles, are no longer limited to specific classes. That’s fantastic, because it allows for everyone to experience any part of the game.
Not everyone likes that though. As was suggested above, some may prefer to be a class that has a specific role, that may be essential to a certain part of the game. This just isn’t that game. The unique and interesting design of Necromancers, Mesmers, and (arguably to convert to guardians) monks WAS sacrificed for this.
What has essentially happened is a shift in WHERE uniqueness is found for classes. It used to be in class capability. Now it is in themetics and execution. For example, I love summoning. Almost all classes can summon, but I wanted a small army (of undead, since I like undead) to travel with me and stick around until the poor things were finally defeated in battle. Necromancer is the ONLY class that lets me do that. Guardians have time limits, Mesmers need an enemy, etc.
I have no problems losing unique capability because that isn’t what makes a game fun for me. Themetics and the possibility to change my role in the game whenever I want is what is fun for me. Others may not agree.

lettucemode.3789:

Yoh, I disagree with what you’ve posted here.

For one thing, “fun factor” is subjective. Personally I think the necromancer is the most fun of all GW2’s classes. You spend a lot of time talking about how awesome the GW1 necromancer was. I think you are looking at the world through rose-colored glasses. Whenever there is a sequel to something, be it a movie, book, or game, there are always people that will argue that the old way was better.

Your second point is about uniqueness. What is your definition of the word “unique”? You appear to define that word specifically in the context of GW1 were there were hundreds of different skills that all did different things, then you look at GW2’s combat system with that definition in mind and find that it doesn’t match that definition. Which is faulty reasoning.

On the skill level, necros actually have a good bit of uniqueness:
- Marks (which you said you liked)
- The majority of our ranged damage isn’t projectile-based, meaning it can’t be reflected or absorbed (see Axe, Scepter, marks, focus 5, dagger 5, warhorn 4)
- Best class at condition management and best boon ripper. Corrupt Boon, Epidemic, Plague Signet, staff 4, dagger 4, focus 5
- If other classes want a gap-closer or interrupt, they have to trait for it or take certain weapons. Necros get them for free in every build.

Wow, what a fallacious argument, and you say my reasoning is flawed?
If I’m guilty of anything, it’s evidently not making myself clear.

Point 1.
Yes, fun factor is subjective, I never pretended otherwise, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value, or that isn’t a shared experience. Love is subjective, does it mean it doesn’t have value?

As to the rose-colored glasses, are you saying I shouldn’t hold Arenanet to the very same standards they themselves once set? I am perfectly happy with every other returning profession, because they are fresh and new, but retain the spirit and standards of the original. But I should just make an exception for the Necromancer who fails to do this, I don’t think so.

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Point 2.
First you ask me what my definition of ‘unique’ is, then you assume one for me.
That would be a strawman argument.

By unique in this context, I mean abilities or skill subsets that have functionality that is limited to one or two professions. (but mainly belonging to one)
For example, Mesmer clones and shatters is something only they can do, with mechanics unique onto themselves.
In addition, Mesmers are also partially unique with their usage of Stealth, as only them and the Theif have active access to stealth skills. (primarily the Theif, secondarily the Mesmer)

And by utilizing several of these unique factors in tandem, the profession as a whole becomes ‘unique’. So it is possible for a profession to have some unique mechanics or skills, and yet not be unique onto themselves as they share too much in common with other professions, as in this case.

I brought up the GW1 Necro, because at the time in regards to other professions, and indeed other games, it was unique. But the GW2 Necro is not, not just because it no longer has certain mechanics, but rather because very few new ones were developed for it.
It’s a contrast.

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Point 3.
You then go on to list things you perceive as ‘unique’, which ironically are not unique at all.
Marks are little different to traps, except visible. Functionally, all they do is a little bit of AOE damage and some conditions, both of which a ubiquitous.

Ranged attacks that are not projectile……

Mesmer = Greatsword, Scepter, Focus.
Guardian = Scepter, Staff.
Engineer = Grenades, Flamethrower, Elixergun.
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus.

You were saying?

Third, your confusing power with unique, sure they have more powerful and wide spread condition usage, but just about every other profession has access to the same conditions and can specialist in it. It’s a gameplay option that almost every profession has, in addition to everything else they do.

Lastly, yeah it’s not like other classes have weapons or traits to use.
So what if they get gap closing a bit easier, other professions can still do it.

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Overall I find your argument fallacious and poorly thought out, but only seeks to demonstrate the even with the examples you chose, that the Necromancer is indeed not unique.
You may find it fun, and good for you if you do.
But some of us have standards, and it’s going to take more then a strawman argument in order to sway us.

This completely sums up how I feel, better than I could have said it. I too mained necromancer in GW1, logging around 2000 hours on him alone. The unique gameplay of the hexes, counterplay, and a small mixture of support just made necromancers extremely versatile and fun to play.

Currently, there are only a couple weapons really worth using, and none feel strong compared to other classes. Scepter is pathetic, axe aa is just too slow and weak, dagger is strong but close range when necros lack mobility it is fairly weak. Staff is great imo, not a fan of the slow aa speed or the sound, but the marks are awesome.

Death shroud… not sure what to say about this, it’s just extremely boring, much like all the necromancer gameplay. Fights on a necro turn into circle kiting fests while you burn down targets at about a quarter of the speed of warriors (who have ridiculous base durability already). I’m not going to pretend to know how they handle class balancing, but necromancer is just boring auto attack gameplay, something I haven’t had happen on any other class and I have the most time logged on necromancer.

After that post where John Peters said people just don’t know how to play necromancer, I bought 3 separate armor and accessory sets to try out different builds, huge waste of time and money as they all feel far weaker than my elementalist.

And the traits, I can’t even explain how useless most of them are. There are some major traits that I don’t even want to pick one because they are all so bad, and the few traits I do like are the only ones worth picking in their lines. On top of that, a lot of the utility skills are fairly useless, all the minions, most of the spectrals, and a couple of the corruptions. While wells are great, I find points in the blood magic line to be points wasted, so investing in well builds loses you a lot of precious stats (unless you are running support).

TL;DR: Necromancer is currently a boring auto-attack spamming class, very sub par damage compared to other classes I’ve played, yet they still have trouble in dungeons due to lack of mobility and viable defensive utilities.

Yoh.8469:

Mesmer = Greatsword, Scepter, Focus.
Guardian = Scepter, Staff.
Engineer = Grenades, Flamethrower, Elixergun.
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus.

First note, all said takes into account game type of attack not if its a actual projectile finisher for combos.

Mesmer = Scepter, Focus – Scepter clone attack is a projectile, so is secondary 2, Focus isnt a offensive offhand (projectile blocking, condition cleanse, cc and swiftness for team, using Warden for damage is stupid)
Guardian = Scepter – again primary attack a projectile
Engineer = Grenades, Elixergun – offensive uses are projectiles (only fumes on Egun aint)
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus – 5 skills on both staff and scepter are projectiles (and with 4 skills on staff not having any offensive use at all you can safely say that a only a third for both staff and scepter are equivelent to marks) and again Focus aint used for the offensive options(with only 3 skills actually dealing damage and the strongest being the one used as a condition cleanse).

If you are only right on ~27%, of your comeback (what is shown) then chances are your main reasoning is also only 27% close to the truth.

I also wanted to bring up a supplementary argument against Death Shroud today, as this whole discussion has had me thinking more about it and reading up on the history of the Nercomancer in GW2.

As it seems to me that the Necromancer has been a problem child right from closed beta, having to have it’s main ability largely redesigned, because it just wasn’t working as intended. (it also was polling very poorly as well)
However I feel that they have instead stumbled into another problem, the fun factor as I outlined previously.

But I think their is another problem, that it is fundamentally is bad from a design perspective. Death Shroud is the only single, self contained ability of any profession in GW2.

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Every profession aside from the Necro, has a primary ability that is split into several individual parts, that can be used and balanced independently of each other.
The Ele, Warrior and Theif’s abilities are dependent on their weapon skills, and are balanced so long as their weapons are balanced.
Other have individual separate abilities, such as the Mesmer Shatters, or the Guardian Virtues.

They all break down the balance problems into several pieces, allowing the developers to balance function, utility, power and fun, for each piece separately without running (or minimizing) the risk of unbalancing the profession as a whole in the process.

But I don’t think you can do that with the Necro, specifically because Death Shroud is a single monolithic ability. How could you add skills or additional functions to make DS more fun or give it more utility, without simultaneously unbalancing it, and subsequently the entire profession as a result?
Arenanet, you’ve put yourselves between a rock and a hard place here.

And this is all because of the design decision to have the Necro’s ability a single basket carrying all the eggs.
Not only is it not fun, it ultimately bites you in the backside as well.

-

And so, I am going to make the most obvious suggestion in the world, why don’t you just break the ability up?

Instead of just DS, you shrink DS and put it to one side, and add two or three more to compensate.
All the abilities would use Lifeforce, so the players would have to juggle when they used what and for how long. And you would be able to balance them separately, which should give you more wiggle room in the long run.

As what the abilities could be, well DS can stay as the ‘Defensive’ Ability, and can largely keep it’s functionality, maybe just change a few skills that we in line with that idea. Basically sacrificing some offense and utility for survivability.

The second ability could be an ‘Offensive’ ability, where you sacrifice defense for power. Maybe some sort of Shadow Weapons, that change your weapon skills, or add some unique property such as ignoring a portion of your targets defenses.
Maybe instead you summon some Spirit Weapon like entities, idk, get creative.
However, where as DS drains LF as you get hit, this ability could drain over time and drain on attacks, so that your attacks are powerful, but limited.
Perhaps this could be traited so that your attacks cause vulnerability.

Another ability could be ‘Support’, like an Aura of Death, sacrificing you offense to power up your allies.
Say 15% faster attacks and skill recharge for example.
In addition to this it’s could power up your minions separately, giving them another portion of your stats. So if you want to go full summoner, you’d use this ability.
It’s lifeforce would drain over time, slowly at first, growing exponentially over time until it is impossible to keep going any longer. This, with a long recharge of 45 secs or so, would force a player to time when to use this ability.

It could also be traited to pulse waves of healing to your minions every so often.

-

With several abilities, each geared to sacrifice something in order to gain something else, and each expending lifeforce differently, this would give the Nerco a lot more options then they currently do, and could be a very fun experience juggling abilities like this. Certainly it would be a great deal more enjoyable then a single ability with limited uses.

I think it’s the best of both worlds, you get the keep DS and have an easier time with balance in the long run, we get more options and fun abilities to play with.
Everybody wins.

Andele.1306:

Yoh.8469:

Mesmer = Greatsword, Scepter, Focus.
Guardian = Scepter, Staff.
Engineer = Grenades, Flamethrower, Elixergun.
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus.

First note, all said takes into account game type of attack not if its a actual projectile finisher for combos.

Mesmer = Scepter, Focus – Scepter clone attack is a projectile, so is secondary 2, Focus isnt a offensive offhand (projectile blocking, condition cleanse, cc and swiftness for team, using Warden for damage is stupid)
Guardian = Scepter – again primary attack a projectile
Engineer = Grenades, Elixergun – offensive uses are projectiles (only fumes on Egun aint)
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus – 5 skills on both staff and scepter are projectiles (and with 4 skills on staff not having any offensive use at all you can safely say that a only a third for both staff and scepter are equivelent to marks) and again Focus aint used for the offensive options(with only 3 skills actually dealing damage and the strongest being the one used as a condition cleanse).

If you are only right on ~27%, of your comeback (what is shown) then chances are your main reasoning is also only 27% close to the truth.

That’s some shotty math.

While I agree with you on the Grenades, been awhile since I used them, besides the auto-attacks, most of the weapons I listed do have attacks that are not projectiles.
Like the laser on the Mesmer scepter, and the counter, offhand focus’s clone is definantly not a projectile and is plenty offensive, and can even be traited to reflect projectiles.

2 of 3 of the Guardian focus are not projectiles.

And at least half the Elementalist weapon skills are not projectiles.

So my point still stands.
His point was that the Necro was unique because it had some ranged attacks that were not projectiles, well so does just about every other bloody profession.
He was wrong.

Yoh.8469:

That’s some shotty math.

While I agree with you on the Grenades, been awhile since I used them, besides the auto-attacks, most of the weapons I listed do have attacks that are not projectiles.
Like the laser on the Mesmer scepter, and the counter, offhand focus’s clone is definantly not a projectile and is plenty offensive, and can even be traited to reflect projectiles.

2 of 3 of the Guardian focus are not projectiles.

And at least half the Elementalist weapon skills are not projectiles.

So my point still stands.
His point was that the Necro was unique because it had some ranged attacks that were not projectiles, well so does just about every other bloody profession.
He was wrong.

Shotty? Shotgun?

Guardian focus has 1 projectile and 1 shield… it was never mentioned here… If you ment scepter true that the main burst isnt, but just like on Necro axe you have to fill the time between hits with the auto attack.
Mesmer scepter isnt the confusion stacking weapon anymore and both other attacks are projectiles (one being a block into line pierce blind other the main attack chain with the clone effect) also while the focus doesnt have projectiles, it isnt a offensive weapon, you dont use the phantasam to deal damage because its projectile destruction effect and condition cleanse with TC is way better, if you want a damage phantasam Warden is on the same level as Mage, as in close to useless (its locked in location unless shatter ordered and being a melee damage cast in a offensive way it dies in a few seconds).
Last but not least 1/3 of ele skills aint projectiles, 1/3 are and the last third are supportive skills with no effect on the enemy.

While i dont deny that marks aint something necros should brag (ranger traps are better either way and on shorter cds for damage), being wrong on numbers of skill effects is something that kitten es me off because it causes stupid comments like “blocking and reflection skills are fine, only 4 out of 8 classes can use them in a reliable way whats totally balanced” or “why can skill x get increased range from elevation if skill y cant, while skill z thats same on effect like y but a giant floating tooth also gets increase like x”.
For short both of you were wrong on points that dont contribute to anything except making people angry. Necros may be dead, but you cannot leave out tje Un thats infront of it.
Undead and necrophilia go hand in hand~

@Yoh, based on your own posts, I don’t think this is the place to talk about Death Shroud in the context of balance. If you want to simply say you feel that Death Shroud isn’t fun, its perfectly on topic, but per your own wishes this thread is about Necromancer’s theme and how enjoyable they are or are not to play.

The problem with LF based skills, which have been suggested numerous times, is multiple-fold, although I like the idea of multiple “shrouds” that have different tool sets.
1) How do you balance them such that they are useful to low LF generating builds, while not being too strong for builds that have very high LF generation?
2) How do you incorporate them with traits? Would they be separate traits, untraited, or slapped on top of the current DS traits, and what would they entail?
3) How do you add things that can’t be too abused? For example, using DS 2/3 for gap closers/interrupts take 0 LF to actually use if you are very fast with them (someone correct me if I am wrong).
4) If you are adding in new shrouds, how do you balance out the new access to abilities, seeing as 3 new shrouds (per your example) is 12 new abilities, that is an entire extra skill bar.

Those are just issues I can think of right now. Not that it isn’t a bad idea, or that we shouldn’t get new shrouds (the idea has far less flaws than ones that are just new skills on F1-4), but it would be a huge undertaking to do all this, and have it actually make a positive contribution on the game.

Removing something like corpse need due to plain lack of corpses in certain situations and making things more readily available isn’t the same as just throwing things in toilet and flushing it because its too much work.
It’s all so mediocre and bland that past initial amusement it feels no different then any other forgetable title you have ever played. Unimaginative, uninspiring, unintuitive, and most importantly isn’t fun. That is what this class is once the initial haze is over. You can’t mask an unwated child with great level design.
Removed reduntant skills you say? Pfft what bloody purpose do half the skills have anyway past some extremely institutional spec specific function? Epidemic is sooooo amazing… I keep hearing and it keeps making me laugh. 5 nerfs ago it was truly one of a kind ability now… For when I play full condition I couldn’t care less for that garbage ability. Its as useful as taking spectral grasp as condition and expecting it to actually do something productive. Pfft last time I ran some spvp I got 6/10 fail ratio. Who the bloody hell wants ability that fails for no other reason then the wonky invisible projectile los problems? Masochists maybe but not me. I don’t find fighting mechancs to be fun. I did that with wow when I started from day 1 with warlock. I lived thought the unfinished class and every last person telling me I should reroll because class was garbage, I stuck with it even when nobody wanted to dungeons with warlock. I was there when warlocks were as OP and godly as it ever got. I was there when for 2 years every single patch note had a warlock nerf and not a single change for the better while other classes got mechanics they never even had. No I have no interest in doing that again. Its forgivable when its done by a company you knew for decades. Its not something I’m willing to bet on some company that can’t be bothered to fix bugs that they had for 7 years in their game much less a child company of a much bigger one. We all know how that works. Look at EA and Activision and tell me how well that pyramid scheme works for the end user.

Bhawb.7408:

@Yoh, based on your own posts, I don’t think this is the place to talk about Death Shroud in the context of balance. If you want to simply say you feel that Death Shroud isn’t fun, its perfectly on topic, but per your own wishes this thread is about Necromancer’s theme and how enjoyable they are or are not to play.

The problem with LF based skills, which have been suggested numerous times, is multiple-fold, although I like the idea of multiple “shrouds” that have different tool sets.
1) How do you balance them such that they are useful to low LF generating builds, while not being too strong for builds that have very high LF generation?
2) How do you incorporate them with traits? Would they be separate traits, untraited, or slapped on top of the current DS traits, and what would they entail?
3) How do you add things that can’t be too abused? For example, using DS 2/3 for gap closers/interrupts take 0 LF to actually use if you are very fast with them (someone correct me if I am wrong).
4) If you are adding in new shrouds, how do you balance out the new access to abilities, seeing as 3 new shrouds (per your example) is 12 new abilities, that is an entire extra skill bar.

Those are just issues I can think of right now. Not that it isn’t a bad idea, or that we shouldn’t get new shrouds (the idea has far less flaws than ones that are just new skills on F1-4), but it would be a huge undertaking to do all this, and have it actually make a positive contribution on the game.

You right about me more or less breaking my own rules, but in a round about way I was sort of on point, because while DS isn’t very fun to play, I can’t imagine that it is fun to develop for either. ^^

That, and I wasn’t really talking about balance, but rather how I don’t see how DS could be balanced, fun and diverse, all at the same time, because it was a single self contained ability. (but perhaps that is a lack of imagination on my part)
It’s a side issue, but I think it’s relevant, since DS is central to the Necromancer experience.

As to how additional LF abilities could be balanced and not abused, hell I don’t know, how could I if I have no earthly idea what the abilities are or how they could work.
That’s for the design team to work out. I just think that in the long run, several smaller abilities would be easier to balance and more fun, the one single large ability.
As evidenced by every other profession.

Traits wise, yeah of coarse they would have traits, why wouldn’t they?
Just like how each Shatter has their own traits, so too could these abilities.
It’s not like we don’t have a lot of garbage traits the could be replaced or anything.

As to how much of an undertaking it would be, sure it would be, but it’s their bloody job, and it’s not like they haven’t done it before or won’t anymore. They can, they have, and they will continue to do so.
I just think they should deal with the problems sooner rather then later, for all of our sake.

Also, I didn’t say each of their abilities were shrouds, they probably shouldn’t be, but it’s an idea I leave to Anet, just that they use lifeforce as a common currency.

Thor Rising.7850:

This completely sums up how I feel, better than I could have said it. I too mained necromancer in GW1, logging around 2000 hours on him alone. The unique gameplay of the hexes, counterplay, and a small mixture of support just made necromancers extremely versatile and fun to play.

Currently, there are only a couple weapons really worth using, and none feel strong compared to other classes. Scepter is pathetic, axe aa is just too slow and weak, dagger is strong but close range when necros lack mobility it is fairly weak. Staff is great imo, not a fan of the slow aa speed or the sound, but the marks are awesome.

Death shroud… not sure what to say about this, it’s just extremely boring, much like all the necromancer gameplay. Fights on a necro turn into circle kiting fests while you burn down targets at about a quarter of the speed of warriors (who have ridiculous base durability already). I’m not going to pretend to know how they handle class balancing, but necromancer is just boring auto attack gameplay, something I haven’t had happen on any other class and I have the most time logged on necromancer.

After that post where John Peters said people just don’t know how to play necromancer, I bought 3 separate armor and accessory sets to try out different builds, huge waste of time and money as they all feel far weaker than my elementalist.

And the traits, I can’t even explain how useless most of them are. There are some major traits that I don’t even want to pick one because they are all so bad, and the few traits I do like are the only ones worth picking in their lines. On top of that, a lot of the utility skills are fairly useless, all the minions, most of the spectrals, and a couple of the corruptions. While wells are great, I find points in the blood magic line to be points wasted, so investing in well builds loses you a lot of precious stats (unless you are running support).

TL;DR: Necromancer is currently a boring auto-attack spamming class, very sub par damage compared to other classes I’ve played, yet they still have trouble in dungeons due to lack of mobility and viable defensive utilities.

Where did Jon Peters said that “All of you necros are bad players”? Please provide link please.

If he did say that, we in the necro community deserves a very detailed explanation and clarification from him. Show us what we are doing wrong. Prove that we suck by demonstrating how to beat elite players from other professions.

CHIPS.6018:

Thor Rising.7850:

This completely sums up how I feel, better than I could have said it. I too mained necromancer in GW1, logging around 2000 hours on him alone. The unique gameplay of the hexes, counterplay, and a small mixture of support just made necromancers extremely versatile and fun to play.

Currently, there are only a couple weapons really worth using, and none feel strong compared to other classes. Scepter is pathetic, axe aa is just too slow and weak, dagger is strong but close range when necros lack mobility it is fairly weak. Staff is great imo, not a fan of the slow aa speed or the sound, but the marks are awesome.

Death shroud… not sure what to say about this, it’s just extremely boring, much like all the necromancer gameplay. Fights on a necro turn into circle kiting fests while you burn down targets at about a quarter of the speed of warriors (who have ridiculous base durability already). I’m not going to pretend to know how they handle class balancing, but necromancer is just boring auto attack gameplay, something I haven’t had happen on any other class and I have the most time logged on necromancer.

After that post where John Peters said people just don’t know how to play necromancer, I bought 3 separate armor and accessory sets to try out different builds, huge waste of time and money as they all feel far weaker than my elementalist.

And the traits, I can’t even explain how useless most of them are. There are some major traits that I don’t even want to pick one because they are all so bad, and the few traits I do like are the only ones worth picking in their lines. On top of that, a lot of the utility skills are fairly useless, all the minions, most of the spectrals, and a couple of the corruptions. While wells are great, I find points in the blood magic line to be points wasted, so investing in well builds loses you a lot of precious stats (unless you are running support).

TL;DR: Necromancer is currently a boring auto-attack spamming class, very sub par damage compared to other classes I’ve played, yet they still have trouble in dungeons due to lack of mobility and viable defensive utilities.

Where did Jon Peters said that “All of you necros are bad players”? Please provide link please.

If he did say that, we in the necro community deserves a very detailed explanation and clarification from him. Show us what we are doing wrong. Prove that we suck by demonstrating how to beat elite players from other professions.

“Tap: Most of the polls I’ve read always see the necromancer come out last, and quite significantly last. The necromancer is one of my favourites; are there any concerns about that, or feelings as to why that could be occurring, or is it just a case of it was one of the first to be revealed?

Jonathan: I think it’s really just preference. The necromancer is also my favourite class. I love the way that it plays and the attrition style that it brings to the table, which again is that archetype we were trying to nail with the necromancer. I know a lot of people that I talk to after they’ve seen me play they also really enjoy them.

It’s one of those things, and again we go back to the archetypes, maybe people don’t understand upfront that this class takes a while to get a hold of you, but once he does you are in deep trouble. The warrior in contrast is very straight up; he is very in your face and easy to understand from the get-go, but I think over time people will begin to see the diversity of other professions and that will really start to come through."

I think they were confusing Jon P with Johathan, since they were both in the interview.
Here’s the whole interview.

http://tap-repeatedly.com/2011/06/exclusive-interview-arenanets-jon-peters-and-jonathan-sharp/

Yoh I read your suggestion. It is pretty similar to my Remove DS, add LF skills idea. The difference is that you want to separate the skills into different modes of Death Shroud. That’s cool. Change it so DS skills costs LF, instead of LF draining over time.

DS Type 1: Damage avoidance- Your LF takes damage on your behalf. Provides 4 skills that helps prevent or avoid damage. Interrupt skills, etc.

DS Type 2: Life/power sacrifice balance- Your LF does not take damage for you. Provides 4 skills that costs you both LF and health, and in return gains bonus stats for a set amount of time. Included here is a bonus that increase life siphoning amounts by 400% for 10 seconds. Since these bonuses are not boons, they cannot be removed.

DS Type 3: Minion Master – Your LF does not take damage for you. But you gain 4 skills that summon special minions that continue to lose health over time, just like GW1.

DS Type 4: Binding Ritual – Your LF does not take damage for you. But you gain 4 skills that casts a blinding ritual at target area. Each spirit remains stationary and provides various AoE benefits to allies or harms to enemies. The spirits do not attack foes directly, unlike minions. Spirits only lasts for 30 seconds, and can be killed earlier than that.

DS Type 5: Curses – Your LF does not take damage for you. But you gain 4 skills that casts special curses on the enemy(s) with various effects to mess them up. These curses are not conditions, and hence cannot be removed and will last their full duration. Included here is a snare skill that cannot be removed.

So here are my 2 cents.
I played GW1 as a necro through the 3 campains and the expansion. Still log in actually. Started playing after all 3 campains were released and Factions was my first campain and were I started my necro.
I just want to ask since you seem to have played the necro from Prophecies, how was GW1’s necro “fun” at the beggining. From what I read dual class was something that came with Factions and until that point you only had the Prophecies necromancer skills to use. Tell me how could that have been fun to play? Tell me how did that have 100s of ways to play it? As with GW1, Anet was not going to make GW2’s release content to include all the different things they plan for the game.
I disagree with you in principle mostly because I do get your point.
You cant compare a 6-7 years old polished dual class skill system that had a skill pool from 4 full campains with a skill system that is single class and has the skill pool from 1 campain only.
Since Anet wanted to go for a combat system that is more active than GW1 they had to do things differently and they had to start over. I find the approach that Anet has on skills of GW2’s necro to be ok and fun for me. I play necro in GW2 as well since pre public betas started. I find necromancer more fun to play than other classes. I am pleased with what I’m getting from a new game that just released. I do expect better things for the future. More polished skill system. More skills and more builds. I know better than to had expected all of GW1 things to be part of GW2.
I, as you, wish for better minions but anw minions cannot be what GW1 minions were. We are talking about an active system here were you need to have quick reactions if you want to survive. Old minions sucked in quick reactions. they worked as a zerg and the only difference with the current minions is that when they saw something they attacked it. Other than that they are the same and, imo, GW2’s minions are a bit improved with the active skill.
To all the people saying if necro didnt have DS and high hp and epidemic they would be useless. Well duh! All the classes, if they didnt have their attunements, their boons, their 100blades would be useless and not fun to play!
They do have them and they are usefull because of them! Thats what makes them unique! I do understand the disappointment and why you find the necro unfun but you should try and see the possitives and as, I’m sure you did, in GW1’s Prophecies ignore skills and builds that dont work for you. Or even the class as a whole until the next expansion were I’m sure more diversity will be introduced to all the classes.

Panikos but you are answering your own question there. They already found a way… found a sweat spot then they just threw it away and settled for an arbitrary kitten friendly approach that carries no depth to it. Then flushed all the uniqueness down the toilet and made it into a chopped up shadow of what it once was.
It’s like saying: Oh well Diablos 2 necromancers were pretty sub-par on release and attempting to use that as excuse. They were… but they were made to shine. If you just take that and throw it away that invalidates any kind of counterargument. Its like talking about elder scrolls of the decades past and remembering what it is that captivated you so much about them. For me it was spellmaking and enchanting and alchemy the neverending road to creativity. It was tossed away and discarded. Any attempts to justify it fall flat at one single mention that once the defining unique feature of the game is extinct now replaced by some non-existant variety of spells from which only 3-4 are really even worth casting once you reach the end of the road.
You can’t throw a card like it didn’t work at first so its fine if it doesn’t work now. They got it to work. They had it made. They chose to throw it away. So there is no excuse for bland mechanics now.
Fact remains DS is just not fun. Unlike other class defining mechanics it doesn’t even always apply to all aspects. Sure adrenaline is boring. I can’t really argue there. But there isn’t a single spec where warrior flat out doesn’t benefit in any way/shape/form from adrenaline. Same can’t be said for DS. Still… I’m craving a fun mechanic over a useful one. Id take some bizzare lifeforce empowerment abilities. Say… use lifeforce to increase effects of skills. Or extend duration of effects. Or well… use it as hp shield. Sounds a lot more useful then DS to me. In that scenario I at least have a choice of what to use lifeforce for and the choice isn’t arbitrary made for me as if im too kittening kitten to be able to think for myself.

panikos.8309:

So here are my 2 cents.
I played GW1 as a necro through the 3 campains and the expansion. Still log in actually. Started playing after all 3 campains were released and Factions was my first campain and were I started my necro.
I just want to ask since you seem to have played the necro from Prophecies, how was GW1’s necro “fun” at the beggining. From what I read dual class was something that came with Factions and until that point you only had the Prophecies necromancer skills to use. Tell me how could that have been fun to play? Tell me how did that have 100s of ways to play it? As with GW1, Anet was not going to make GW2’s release content to include all the different things they plan for the game.
I disagree with you in principle mostly because I do get your point.
You cant compare a 6-7 years old polished dual class skill system that had a skill pool from 4 full campains with a skill system that is single class and has the skill pool from 1 campain only.
Since Anet wanted to go for a combat system that is more active than GW1 they had to do things differently and they had to start over. I find the approach that Anet has on skills of GW2’s necro to be ok and fun for me. I play necro in GW2 as well since pre public betas started. I find necromancer more fun to play than other classes. I am pleased with what I’m getting from a new game that just released. I do expect better things for the future. More polished skill system. More skills and more builds. I know better than to had expected all of GW1 things to be part of GW2.
I, as you, wish for better minions but anw minions cannot be what GW1 minions were. We are talking about an active system here were you need to have quick reactions if you want to survive. Old minions sucked in quick reactions. they worked as a zerg and the only difference with the current minions is that when they saw something they attacked it. Other than that they are the same and, imo, GW2’s minions are a bit improved with the active skill.
To all the people saying if necro didnt have DS and high hp and epidemic they would be useless. Well duh! All the classes, if they didnt have their attunements, their boons, their 100blades would be useless and not fun to play!
They do have them and they are usefull because of them! Thats what makes them unique! I do understand the disappointment and why you find the necro unfun but you should try and see the possitives and as, I’m sure you did, in GW1’s Prophecies ignore skills and builds that dont work for you. Or even the class as a whole until the next expansion were I’m sure more diversity will be introduced to all the classes.

At the end of that 7 years, the GW1 necro was a great class to play. However none of those awesome ideas were transferred to the GW2 necro. That’s the most disappointing thing.

After creating the GW1 necro, making the GW2 necro should be easier than starting out blank. But it doesn’t seem to be the case.

It is not that GW2 necro is that underpowered or that unfun to play in itself. It is the lack of root, heritage and uniqueness that we are complaining about.

panikos.8309:

I just want to ask since you seem to have played the necro from Prophecies, how was GW1’s necro “fun” at the beggining. From what I read dual class was something that came with Factions and until that point you only had the Prophecies necromancer skills to use. Tell me how could that have been fun to play?

First, your mistaken about the secondary profession not being at launch, it was, someone has been telling you porkies.

To your question, all of the core mechanics of the Necromancer, the minions, corpses, wells, hexes, life steal, sacrifice, condition manipulation, all of these were at launch. Sure it was fleshed out, given even more options, and more skills for more builds, but at the end of the day they were only ever building on an already establish foundation.
And it is that foundation that is lacking in the GW2 Necromancer, and this is what I am using as a bench mark, not what it was after 6-7 years of development.

-

As to my experience, as to why I found it fun even back in the rough old days of Prophecies. Guild Wars was my first MMO btw.
The first thing I wanted to do in GW1 was to play and an Earth Elementalist, that was what I wanted to do more then anything…… and I couldn’t, the skills just didn’t exist for me to do that, and it wasn’t until Nightfall that I was able to realize this desire.

Needless to say I was frustrated from not being able to play the way I wanted to play, so I tried out other professions, and as soon as I had a good go of the Necro, it had me hooked. I wanted to be a vampire, and I could right off the bat.
I even had a few minions, so I felt like a right bloody vampire then.

I felt that the class, even early on, more or less let me do what I would expect the profession to let me do, suck the blood from my enemies and raise minions from their corpses. And it’s a very empowering feeling.
As a result I was able to stick with it right through to Nightfall, where I was finally able to play as a Earth ele.

Although towards my latter days I ended up falling in love with the Ritualist.
Of coarse I would always come back once in awhile and play my Necro, who looks like a total baller biker girl.

-

So in the end, my standard for what the GW2 Necro should be, really isn’t that high, it’s about as high as GW1 launch Necro, and it can’t even do that, it’s pathetic.

Made a thread in the Suggestions sub-forum, about the idea for a new version of the Disease condition.

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/game/suggestions/Necromancer-Disease-condition/first#post1765811

I think it’s a fun idea that is very Necromancer.

Yoh.8469:

Point 1.
Yes, fun factor is subjective, I never pretended otherwise, but that doesn’t mean it doesn’t have value, or that isn’t a shared experience. Love is subjective, does it mean it doesn’t have value?

As to the rose-colored glasses, are you saying I shouldn’t hold Arenanet to the very same standards they themselves once set? I am perfectly happy with every other returning profession, because they are fresh and new, but retain the spirit and standards of the original. But I should just make an exception for the Necromancer who fails to do this, I don’t think so.

Fair enough, but I will expound (expand?) more on “I am perfectly happy with every other returning profession” below.

Point 2.
First you ask me what my definition of ‘unique’ is, then you assume one for me.
That would be a strawman argument.

Agree, strawman arguments are bad.

By unique in this context, I mean abilities or skill subsets that have functionality that is limited to one or two professions. (but mainly belonging to one)

So…the only difference between your actual definition of “unique” and what I assumed it to be is semantics. :P

For example, Mesmer clones and shatters is something only they can do, with mechanics unique onto themselves.
In addition, Mesmers are also partially unique with their usage of Stealth, as only them and the Theif have active access to stealth skills. (primarily the Theif, secondarily the Mesmer)

And by utilizing several of these unique factors in tandem, the profession as a whole becomes ‘unique’. So it is possible for a profession to have some unique mechanics or skills, and yet not be unique onto themselves as they share too much in common with other professions, as in this case.

I brought up the GW1 Necro, because at the time in regards to other professions, and indeed other games, it was unique. But the GW2 Necro is not, not just because it no longer has certain mechanics, but rather because very few new ones were developed for it.
It’s a contrast.

So let’s analyze Death Shroud, given your actual definition.

- Functionality limited to one or two professions: No other profession has a non-elite transformation. Other professions with transformations are Elementalist and Engineer (and maybe Warrior? Is that one elite of theirs a transformation?).
- Mechanics unique to Death Shroud: Only transformation with its own health bar, and this health bar can be replenished during battle. Gain boons and cause other effects when entering/leaving Death Shroud, other transformations only grant Stability during their duration.

Heck, let’s analyze Fear:

- Functionality limited to one or two professions: only other classes with access to Fear are thief and warrior.
- Mechanics unique to necromancer Fear: can have more than one in a build, lower cooldowns, necromancer can make their fear do damage.

How about life siphoning?

-Functionality limited to one or two other professions: only other class that can siphon health on hit is Thief.
- Mechanics unique to necromancer siphon: can get an extra siphon on crits, can trait to increase the siphon, doesn’t take up a utility slot, can gain an extra siphon on well pulse, can gain an extra siphon on minion attacks.

Or transferring conditions?

- Functionality limited to one or two other professions: Mesmers have Arcane Thievery. Guardians can use “Save Yourselves!” to pull conditions onto them like Plague Signet, but they can’t transfer them off after that.
- Unique mechanics to necromancer condition transfer: No unique mechanics I guess. But we have the most.

You want to talk about truly unique mechanics? Then why didn’t you mention converting boons into conditions, or spreading conditions on one enemy to others? Because both of those are necromancer-exclusive. So please pardon me when I say that I think you are a little biased against the necromancer :P

Point 3.
You then go on to list things you perceive as ‘unique’, which ironically are not unique at all.
Marks are little different to traps, except visible. Functionally, all they do is a little bit of AOE damage and some conditions, both of which a ubiquitous.

Ranged attacks that are not projectile……

Mesmer = Greatsword, Scepter, Focus.
Guardian = Scepter, Staff.
Engineer = Grenades, Flamethrower, Elixergun.
Elementalist = Staff, Scepter, Focus.

You were saying?

Third, your confusing power with unique, sure they have more powerful and wide spread condition usage, but just about every other profession has access to the same conditions and can specialist in it. It’s a gameplay option that almost every profession has, in addition to everything else they do.

Lastly, yeah it’s not like other classes have weapons or traits to use.
So what if they get gap closing a bit easier, other professions can still do it.

Fair enough. But what’s also ironic is your statement above: “I am perfectly happy with every other returning profession”.

What’s unique about the warrior, given your definition? What unique mechanics do they have? Banners and stat auras, I guess, but every other ability they have can be compared to other abilities in the game the same way you compared the necro abilities I listed. And yet the warrior is more unique and fresher than the necro?

So what if they get high damage and tankiness a bit easier, other professions can still do it.

Maybe this one is a bit of a stretch, but Elementalist. They can attunement swap to gain boons, cool, necromancers and engineers can too. And all of the new skills they get from attunement swapping can be compared to other skills too. So what unique mechanics do eles have, besides having 20 weapon skills instead of 10 per build?

So what if they get lots of different skills and boons a bit easier, other professions can still do it.

Ranger. They have a pet, cool, but everyone’s profession skill is unique like that. They can spec into their pet and gain effects on using/swapping it, cool, all professions can do that. Besides that? Spirits – minions, spirit weapons, turrets. Traps – those are just like necromancer marks. Bows – lots of professions use ranged weapons. So given your definition of uniqueness, what’s unique about the Ranger?

So what if they get great long range damage and potent skirmishing potential a bit easier, other professions can still do it.

This is the problem I have with your argument. The necromancer fits your definition of unique, whereas (arguably) other classes don’t, yet it still has a problem with necromancers for some reason. Then when I point out this inconsistency, it hides behind subjective things like “fun” and how the class “feels”. This doesn’t make sense to me, so I conclude that it’s just not the kind of uniqueness you want because you’re looking at things the wrong way.

This was such an awesome read.

I’ve never played GW1, but the way you’ve described it was EXACTLY what I was hoping for with the Necro. My best friend and I have played GW2 since launch, him running Necro and me running Mesmer. As I watched him level, I couldn’t help but feel that the Necromancer was… lacking. No real raising dead or dead manipulation, nothing really to distinguish the Necro from a generic “dark mage” beyond the minions (which even the minions seemed to pale in comparison to my Phantasms).

If the GW2 Necro was like how you described in GW1, I would’ve switched professions in a heartbeat. As it stands, barely any of the attacks and few of the mechanics really scream “Necromancer” to me. I hold out hope for this to change in expansions though.

lettucemode.3789:

So let’s analyze Death Shroud, given your actual definition.

- Functionality limited to one or two professions: No other profession has a non-elite transformation. Other professions with transformations are Elementalist and Engineer (and maybe Warrior? Is that one elite of theirs a transformation?).
- Mechanics unique to Death Shroud: Only transformation with its own health bar, and this health bar can be replenished during battle. Gain boons and cause other effects when entering/leaving Death Shroud, other transformations only grant Stability during their duration.

Heck, let’s analyze Fear:

- Functionality limited to one or two professions: only other classes with access to Fear are thief and warrior.
- Mechanics unique to necromancer Fear: can have more than one in a build, lower cooldowns, necromancer can make their fear do damage.

How about life siphoning?

-Functionality limited to one or two other professions: only other class that can siphon health on hit is Thief.
- Mechanics unique to necromancer siphon: can get an extra siphon on crits, can trait to increase the siphon, doesn’t take up a utility slot, can gain an extra siphon on well pulse, can gain an extra siphon on minion attacks.

Or transferring conditions?

- Functionality limited to one or two other professions: Mesmers have Arcane Thievery. Guardians can use “Save Yourselves!” to pull conditions onto them like Plague Signet, but they can’t transfer them off after that.
- Unique mechanics to necromancer condition transfer: No unique mechanics I guess. But we have the most.

You want to talk about truly unique mechanics? Then why didn’t you mention converting boons into conditions, or spreading conditions on one enemy to others? Because both of those are necromancer-exclusive. So please pardon me when I say that I think you are a little biased against the necromancer :P

I will simplify things, from the opposite camp:

DS transform: If you do not like how DS works and dislike its skills, it is simply extra hp for you. Boring.

Fear: Necro is not the only class that can fear. Nor is the necro the only class that can interrupt and CC. Many other professions can do these better. Not unique.

Life Siphoning: Vampiric Gaze from GW1 (a very underpowered skill btw) can steal around 10% of the enemy health every 8 seconds. Can the GW2 necro do this kind of damage by life stealing alone? Not even close. Very weak.

Condition Control: As fancy as this sounds, this is just another method to deal damage. And with the Epidemic nerf condition control, for wvw at least, took a huge hit. Not unique and weakened.

That’s how a “hater” of the GW2 necro sees it. The GW2 necro’s skills, traits and themes are boring, non unique or very weak. The “lovers” of GW2 necro will see it the other way, obviously.

Perhaps the worst sin for the GW2 necro was that it is pretty much 0% related to the GW1 necro. There is no roots there. No heritage. No lineage. And that’s a serious problem for GW1 necro veterans. They found it hard to adopt their skills and experience from GW1 into GW2.

I tell you for a fact, that I got to relearn everything when I play my GW2 necro. None of the skills and experience I got from GW1 necro were transferable.

Like I said, this is when the “lovers” say: Go play another profession! And this is what we want to avoid. Anet have to provide more interesting, unique and strong skills, traits and themes for the GW2 necromancer.

CHIPS.6018:

I will simply things:

DS transform: If you do not like how DS works and its skills, it is simply extra hp for you. Boring.

Fear: Necro is not the only class that can fear. Nor is the necro the only class that can interrupt and CC. Many other professions can do these better. Not unique.

Life Siphoning: Vampiric Gaze from GW1 (a very underpowered skill btw) can stealing around 10% of the enemy health every 8 seconds. Can the GW2 necro do this kind of damage by life stealing alone? Not even close. Very weak.

Condition Control: As fancy as this sounds, this is just another method to deal damage. And with the Epidemic nerf condition control is, for wvw at least, pretty much non-existent now. Not unique and very weak.

His points remain valid.

DS is still the only transform skill with its own HP bar.

Fear is still only accessible by 3 professions (hence limited, similar to stealth), and Necromancers are the only ones that have multiple ways to access it on low CD and with the ability to make fear do damage. That makes Necro fear quite unique.

Touch Necromancers could also steal more HP on lower CD, but it wasn’t a great build, just fun when you didn’t run into interrupts. Still, life stealing is quite unique to necromancers in GW2.

Still his point remains, we have more condition control. Its like saying a mesmer’s shatter isn’t “unique” because its just another way to deal damage, or that a warriors burst skill is just another way to deal damage.

His points were all valid, Necromancers do have unique mechanics by Yoh’s own definition (accessed by few classes, with one class having a stronger version). By that definition, everything listed was correct.

CHIPS.6018:

I will simply things, from the opposite camp:

DS transform: If you do not like how DS works and dislike its skills, it is simply extra hp for you. Boring.

Fear: Necro is not the only class that can fear. Nor is the necro the only class that can interrupt and CC. Many other professions can do these better. Not unique.

Life Siphoning: Vampiric Gaze from GW1 (a very underpowered skill btw) can stealing around 10% of the enemy health every 8 seconds. Can the GW2 necro do this kind of damage by life stealing alone? Not even close. Very weak.

Condition Control: As fancy as this sounds, this is just another method to deal damage. And with the Epidemic nerf condition control, for wvw at least, took a huge hit. Not unique and weakened.

That’s how a “hater” of the GW2 necro sees it. The GW2 necro’s skills, traits and themes are boring, non unique or very weak. The “lovers” of GW2 necro will see it the other way, obviously.

Perhaps the worst sin for the GW2 necro was that it is pretty much 0% related to the GW1 necro. There is no roots there. No heritage. No lineage. And that’s a serious problem for GW1 necro veterans. They found it hard to adopt their skills and experience from GW1 into GW2.

I tell you for a fact, that I got to relearn everything when I play my GW2 necro. None of the skills and experience I got from GW1 necro were transferable.

Like I said, this is when the “lovers” say: Go play another profession! And this is what we want to avoid. Anet have to provide more interesting, unique and strong skills, traits and themes for the GW2 necromancer.

Thanks for the other perspective. Like Bhawb said, I was specifically responding to Yoh’s argument about uniqueness, but I appreciate that/your point of view.

It kind of supports my rose-colored glasses point though. If you’ve played a completely different class, also called necromancer, in a completely different game made by the same company, you won’t like this game’s necromancer. I understand that, it just seems odd to me to take that previous experience and say “therefore, this game’s necromancer is worse” when you really can’t compare the two.

EDIT: deleted unnecessary paragraph, added another one.

Bhawb.7408:

CHIPS.6018:

I will simply things:

DS transform: If you do not like how DS works and its skills, it is simply extra hp for you. Boring.

Fear: Necro is not the only class that can fear. Nor is the necro the only class that can interrupt and CC. Many other professions can do these better. Not unique.

Life Siphoning: Vampiric Gaze from GW1 (a very underpowered skill btw) can stealing around 10% of the enemy health every 8 seconds. Can the GW2 necro do this kind of damage by life stealing alone? Not even close. Very weak.

Condition Control: As fancy as this sounds, this is just another method to deal damage. And with the Epidemic nerf condition control is, for wvw at least, pretty much non-existent now. Not unique and very weak.

His points remain valid.

DS is still the only transform skill with its own HP bar.

Fear is still only accessible by 3 professions (hence limited, similar to stealth), and Necromancers are the only ones that have multiple ways to access it on low CD and with the ability to make fear do damage. That makes Necro fear quite unique.

Touch Necromancers could also steal more HP on lower CD, but it wasn’t a great build, just fun when you didn’t run into interrupts. Still, life stealing is quite unique to necromancers in GW2.

Still his point remains, we have more condition control. Its like saying a mesmer’s shatter isn’t “unique” because its just another way to deal damage, or that a warriors burst skill is just another way to deal damage.

His points were all valid, Necromancers do have unique mechanics by Yoh’s own definition (accessed by few classes, with one class having a stronger version). By that definition, everything listed was correct.

I will clarify.

Let’s say you are a GW2 necro veteran and love everything about the GW1 necro. You come to GW2 and start playing a necro.

Eventually you found yourself hating DS. Maybe you don’t like the DS mechanic. Maybe you don’t like those DS skills. It just aren’t working out.

Is this fair? Yes, because DS aren’t from GW1 necro.

You also found yourself hating fear. Maybe you are not good at interrupting foes. Maybe you fear often fails due to enemy dodging or have stability. It just aren’t working out.

Is this fair? Yes, because fear and interrupts aren’t from GW1 necro.

You also found yourself hating condition control. Maybe enemies removes conditions too fast for you. Maybe you don’t feel it does enough damage.

Is this fair? Yes, because condition control was a very small part of GW1 necro.

What can you do? Nothing much except change to a different profession.

The key here is: A player can be 100% in love with the GW1 necro but totally hates the GW2 necro, because they are pretty much non-related in all ways. And I personally thinks this is a huge problem. There is no roots there. No heritage. No lineage. And that’s a serious problem for GW1 necro veterans. They found it hard to adopt their skills and experience from GW1 into GW2.

I just happens to love both the GW1 necro and GW2 necro. However being a GW1 necro veteran myself, I totally can see where these players are coming from. Like I said earlier, I got to relearn everything when I play my GW2 necro. None of the skills and experience I got from GW1 necro were transferable. Cover hex, etc.

Quotes getting too big!

CHIPS, I didn’t play much GW1, so I have to ask…how similar is it for other classes? There are probably lots of things that GW1 warrior, mesmers, thieves, etc can’t do in GW2 also, right?

I wouldn’t say they are non-related, thematically speaking they are still very similar. The key themes (blood, sacrifice, wells, minions, death, life force, corruption, etc.) all remain.

The separation comes in when you actually look at game mechanics, which of course had to change significantly. Hexes were removed, signets were changed, life stealing is different, corpse skills are gone, life force works differently, etc. In certain areas it can have a similar play style, in others it is completely different. This isn’t a Necromancer exclusive issue, a lot of the classes changed in playstyle. I agree completely, a GW1 necro could have the GW2 one because they play very differently, just like I imagine quite some GW1 mesmers hate the new mesmer playstyle.

lettucemode.3789:

Quotes getting too big!

CHIPS, I didn’t play much GW1, so I have to ask…how similar is it for other classes? There are probably lots of things that GW1 warrior, mesmers, thieves, etc can’t do in GW2 also, right?

It depends on what you did in GW1 in each class, but most of them are in very similar situations. I think Warriors have one of the easiest transitions, because hitting stuff with big pieces of metal is fairly similar all around.

lettucemode.3789:

Quotes getting too big!

CHIPS, I didn’t play much GW1, so I have to ask…how similar is it for other classes? There are probably lots of things that GW1 warrior, mesmers, thieves, etc can’t do in GW2 also, right?

In GW2, other than the necro, I only played a thief. I had an assassins from GW1, and the GW2 thief is indeed a carry over from GW1. They can still shadow step (main theme from GW1). They can still deal very high damage rapidly. On top of that they can now stealth.

I cannot really comment on other professions. But:

Warrior still uses adrenaline, a major theme for warriors and paragons back in GW1. They can also deal AoE melee damage just like Dervish. The GW2 warrior is pretty much a combination of those 3 GW1 professions.

Eles still uses nukes, although even easier now that they don’t even need energy management anymore. They also no longer suffer from exhaustion, a major “negative” theme for eles back in GW1. They can also now summon.

Mesmer’s confusion replaced GW1’s Backfire and Empathy. On top of that now they can create clones.

Guardians are a true carry over from GW1 monks, with multiple healing and team buff skills. Now they have even higher defenses.

Engineers can set up towers, similar to ritualists in GW1. Although this is a bit far fetched. There is no ritualist in GW2.

Rangers is still about interrupts, pets, traps and condition support, just like they were in GW1.

As for “build design choices” that I really missed from GW1, you have to understand that back in GW1 you have access to skills from 2 professions. You can mix and match, experiment for hours, and discover some crazy combos.

I didn’t make too many videos back in the days. But here is one of them.

Ultimate condition control: I am nearly immune to conditions, and able to draw conditions from allies to myself rapidly. So because I am there, my whole team was immune to conditions. (The mobs I was fighting here are the strongest mobs in the whole game; Winds of Change hard mode mobs.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqxvFznjsB8

Now maybe you would understand why the GW2 condition control of the necro doesn’t really impress me. My GW1 necro can do condition control MUCH better.

Themes were very well carried over. Playstyles range based on what build you used to run. Elementalists play very differently because of the new resourceless system, and the sheer amount of skills they have. Mesmers only have confusion for the shutdown style they used to have, and with clones their “illusion” type gameplay is totally different. Thematically in line, but from a playstyle standpoint they are quite different. The more “basic” classes like Warrior and Ranger are very similar to my knowledge.

ArenaNet took nothing from GW1 Necromancer. Instead, they modeled GW2 Necromancer after the warlock from World of Warcraft. Necromancers are not warlocks. Warlocks have one or two demons at a time and are obsessed with conditional damage. Necromancers control hordes of undead are not necessarily obsessed with conditional damage.

The GW2 Necromancer is not. It’s a kitten WoW warlock, made so to appeal to WoW players. Most of its minions are demons and are summoned, not raised.

I hope Arenanet takes notice of this thread. As I really wish they would change Necro. I lost interest in Necro, started playing every other class more. It’s sad really.