Guild Wars 2

Lorelei.3918:

Actually Necromancers do have access to Vigor. It’s called Well of Power…

And its absolutely fair compared to other classes 5 point minor trait with 100% uptime …

Lorelei.3918:

I really don’t think survival is our biggest issue. Mobility, by far, is. A lot of the damage you take as a necro comes from simply not being able to get from here to there.

No, a lot of damage you take as a necro, comes from not having access to invulnerability like all other classes, and being CC’d and rooted in place. It’s our inability to render ourselves invulnerable for a few precious seconds, and the fact that all conditions continue to affect us in Death Shroud. This is why necros often are unable to escape, or survive high damage spikes.

Dredlord.8076:

Poplolita.2638:

Dredlord.8076:

Poplolita.2638:

Dredlord.8076:

Andele.1306:

…but the base functions (in reverse order of removal; jumping off cliffs, allowing you to weapon swap and the old semi stun break/traitable invul to cc) were awesome ideas.

truth.

Bhawb.7408:

…but the old (DS) was terrible implementation.

idiocy.

… Learn to post constructive counter argument.

you must be new here…..or not a learner

constructive arguments or feedback has been completely ignored in this forum since release. If you don’t like it maybe this class isn’t for you…

Hmmm? I don’t like what? How is this class not for me? What are you on??? How did you go to “constructive arguments or feedback has been completely ignored in this forum” to “this is not the class for you”? It doesn’t even make any sense. I’m happy with the direction areneNet is going with necromancers since day one. If you don’t believe me, I’ll let facts speak for me, and not my “mouth”, so maybe this time, you won’t put words in my mouth. just sayin – miranda sings

oh you’re from Quebec?

you’re forgiven then

I guess you didn’t see that I got one lvl 80 which is my necro, and I played tpvp mostly with my necromancer which completly nulify you previous post: |“constructive arguments or feedback has been completely ignored in this forum since release. If you don’t like it maybe this class isn’t for you…”|. But no, you instead prefer to pay attention to things that are completly irrelevant. Well played

It’s Dredlord. He never has anything constructive. Best to just ignore him.

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

Lorelei.3918:

I really don’t think survival is our biggest issue. Mobility, by far, is. A lot of the damage you take as a necro comes from simply not being able to get from here to there.

No, a lot of damage you take as a necro, comes from not having access to invulnerability like all other classes, and being CC’d and rooted in place. It’s our inability to render ourselves invulnerable for a few precious seconds, and the fact that all conditions continue to affect us in Death Shroud. This is why necros often are unable to escape, or survive high damage spikes.

Its not really lack of dodge/invul that hurts us, nor really the mobility (the spectral defensive changes are still dumb trough), its that we have to take the ENTIRE burst (DS is pretty much limited but refundable hp, not real migration and when that leaps into real hp we get into a lot of problems because of said thing since) its the CC that hurts us hard since if we cannot go aggro mode, we cant refill hp, we cant weaken the enemy nor can we somehow try to delay the fight till allies come. Like yeah some of the stun breaks we got are good enough in their specialized situation (right now SA for 1v1 and plague vs condis as a condi), but it doesnt do jack if we are in DS, the mode we should be in at least 40% of the time.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

It’s Dredlord. He never has anything constructive. Best to just ignore him.

are you still kitten I made you look stupid a few times?

try to stop being so affected drarnor

tyler.2569:

As for necro defensive side, still support that we need to get this trait http://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/List_of_historical_traits#Necromancer_traits – 10th down the line, back instead of FITG.

Reading over some of those old traits got me excited, even thought they’re long gone.

dude…those traits are so much better than what we get now. wtaf.

Lightsbane.9012:

dude…those traits are so much better than what we get now. wtaf.

The necromancer went over a lot of changes and none for the better. Dark path for example was intended to be an instant teleport to the target. But yeah, I’d love to have traits like leyline mastery and soul stealer back. Maybe some day.

Lily.1935:

1) no teleports that can get you out in a pinch.

2)Arena Net. You frustrate your necromancer community to no end. You ignore us most the time and when you do listen, you listen to the people calling for nerfs when the necromancer doesn’t need them. A player getting beat once by a necromancer doesn’t mean that he necromancer was broken.

Two things.
1) We do have teleports which people don’t seem to be aware of. Spectral walk and wurm are two excellent teleports, if you know how to use them. I hate when people say “we absolutely without doubt cannot do this” when it simply isn’t true. Oh yes, and Dark Path. In WvW, USE it on neutral monsters. If you pop spectral walk, then dark path to a neutral, continue walking, then teleport back… the distance covered is unbelievable. There so, so, so much you can do with those. I’m a teleporting Necro and I’m proud of it

2)Don’t speak on behalf of everyone to better your point. There’s just as many people satisfied, if not more, than there are dissatisfied people – they just won’t come on here to write a “thank you” thread cuz that’s… human nature. Anet doesn’t ignore us. If you go to the Dec. 10th Balance Preview (Necromancer) thread, you’ll see. Also: Necro’s have been getting nerfs because it was warranted, and I’m a saying that as a Necro fan. They simply were over the top in certain aspects. No use in denying it.

There’s a few traits that people can use to refill their deathshroud. I played a Necro since beta, and I play WvW more than anything. I noticed I severely lacked deathshroud in situations. Once it ran out, I was gone. What did I do? I adapted. Oh look, 20 points in Soul Reaping —> Soul Marks --> Problem Solved. On a condi Necro you spend barely any time auto attacking with staff. Auto attack with staff is NOT condi, does no damage, but IT is what charges your deathshroud. See the problem? You take Soul Marks —> marks charge 3.3% of DS --> life’s good (or better).

Lastly… other professions have stealth, invulnerability, etc etc, but in many cases they have to invest utility skills to do that. I realise this isn’t always the case, but let’s look at
Warrior. Endure pain + Berserk Stance = 2/3 utility skills purely for defense.
—-With a Necro, people grab Blood is Power, Signet of Spite and Epidemic and cry when they get rolled over. Well…. yeah, you went with all damage. How about swapping 1-2 of those and grabbing spectral walk or spectral armor, spectral wall, flesh wurm. There’s more than a few defensive utilities that are a godsend. Personally, I take spectral wall, spectral walk, and flesh wurm. Yes, every. single. one. is defensive and yet I manage to get 145+ tick from bleeds and can easily stack them up. Not to mention survival is through the roof. I’m not even build as a tank (other than the utilities) and people say “Oh bunker Necro”. Of course, it has its ups and downs, as does everything, so sometimes I switch in corrupt boon or another offensive utility if i’m in a group setting.

I do agree that CC is a problem though, especially if you get caught in a chain of it. The best thing you can do there is close your eyes, count to five and hope you are still alive when you open them. Jk :P

MethaneGas.8357:

Two things.
1) We do have teleports which people don’t seem to be aware of. Spectral walk and wurm are two excellent teleports, if you know how to use them. I hate when people say “we absolutely without doubt cannot do this” when it simply isn’t true. Oh yes, and Dark Path. In WvW, USE it on neutral monsters. If you pop spectral walk, then dark path to a neutral, continue walking, then teleport back… the distance covered is unbelievable. There so, so, so much you can do with those. I’m a teleporting Necro and I’m proud of it

2)Don’t speak on behalf of everyone to better your point. There’s just as many people satisfied, if not more, than there are dissatisfied people – they just won’t come on here to write a “thank you” thread cuz that’s… human nature. Anet doesn’t ignore us. If you go to the Dec. 10th Balance Preview (Necromancer) thread, you’ll see. Also: Necro’s have been getting nerfs because it was warranted, and I’m a saying that as a Necro fan. They simply were over the top in certain aspects. No use in denying it.

There’s a few traits that people can use to refill their deathshroud. I played a Necro since beta, and I play WvW more than anything. I noticed I severely lacked deathshroud in situations. Once it ran out, I was gone. What did I do? I adapted. Oh look, 20 points in Soul Reaping —> Soul Marks --> Problem Solved. On a condi Necro you spend barely any time auto attacking with staff. Auto attack with staff is NOT condi, does no damage, but IT is what charges your deathshroud. See the problem? You take Soul Marks —> marks charge 3.3% of DS --> life’s good (or better).

Lastly… other professions have stealth, invulnerability, etc etc, but in many cases they have to invest utility skills to do that. I realise this isn’t always the case, but let’s look at
Warrior. Endure pain + Berserk Stance = 2/3 utility skills purely for defense.
—-With a Necro, people grab Blood is Power, Signet of Spite and Epidemic and cry when they get rolled over. Well…. yeah, you went with all damage. How about swapping 1-2 of those and grabbing spectral walk or spectral armor, spectral wall, flesh wurm. There’s more than a few defensive utilities that are a godsend. Personally, I take spectral wall, spectral walk, and flesh wurm. Yes, every. single. one. is defensive and yet I manage to get 145+ tick from bleeds and can easily stack them up. Not to mention survival is through the roof. I’m not even build as a tank (other than the utilities) and people say “Oh bunker Necro”. Of course, it has its ups and downs, as does everything, so sometimes I switch in corrupt boon or another offensive utility if i’m in a group setting.

I do agree that CC is a problem though, especially if you get caught in a chain of it. The best thing you can do there is close your eyes, count to five and hope you are still alive when you open them. Jk :P

You forgot a part: TLDR, play necro to casually to know what a teleport escape is.

Andele.1306:

You forgot a part: TLDR, play necro to casually to know what a teleport escape is.

Here is what I mean: Keep in mind that the video is a little old… A newer version is really, really overdue cuz I learned several new things that can be done. Some of the equips and tactics have changed, but it just shows that it can be done.

Edit: Sorry, ,the video i posted 5 mins ago wasn’t the escape one. My bad This is the “escape” one.

When you straight list a lot of our abilities (like above) they DO look impressive. BUT there are 3 issues that severely “hog-tie” their usage/effectiveness in actual gameplay.

1. A lot are only really maxed out in “niche” builds with limited use. Much of the time the traits required are out of reach to include more than one or two of those abilities in any one build. So we need to stop just listing all the highlights as they are NOT achieveable in a viable build.

2. Many of our best abilities are heavily “gated”. Again, while they look good listed, they are difficult to actually use to the max. For example torment requires DS and that requires LF but as a condimancer you are struggling a lot of the time to create LF for offense (used on defence)..plus DS cooldown superimposed on that…again unless you trait heavily and knobble the condi build. Sure some are good but only when the planets align and you are standing facing north balancing on your left foot. Much of the time those pre-requisites do not align, limiting procs and synergies such that the abilities in practice lose much of their attractiveness and effectiveness.

3. Most of our abilities are heavily “coralled” by large CDs, counters, cleanses, dodges, blocks etc to such an extent that they are a loss in terms of the contribution a necro can make. Add to that the opponents CC and you see where that leaves us.

All 3 of these constraints need to be taken into account when considering balance.

At the moment too many people (including, it seems, the devs) mainly concentrate on the isolated impact abilities without considering how possible/effective they actually are in real life gameplay.

This is where the necro community is missing out as it seems this is not the case in balancing so far.

Edit: spelling several times

Poplolita.2638:

Well played

thank you

MethaneGas.8357:

Lily.1935:

1) no teleports that can get you out in a pinch.

2)Arena Net. You frustrate your necromancer community to no end. You ignore us most the time and when you do listen, you listen to the people calling for nerfs when the necromancer doesn’t need them. A player getting beat once by a necromancer doesn’t mean that he necromancer was broken.

Two things.
1) We do have teleports which people don’t seem to be aware of. Spectral walk and wurm are two excellent teleports, if you know how to use them. I hate when people say “we absolutely without doubt cannot do this” when it simply isn’t true. Oh yes, and Dark Path. In WvW, USE it on neutral monsters. If you pop spectral walk, then dark path to a neutral, continue walking, then teleport back… the distance covered is unbelievable. There so, so, so much you can do with those. I’m a teleporting Necro and I’m proud of it

2)Don’t speak on behalf of everyone to better your point. There’s just as many people satisfied, if not more, than there are dissatisfied people – they just won’t come on here to write a “thank you” thread cuz that’s… human nature. Anet doesn’t ignore us. If you go to the Dec. 10th Balance Preview (Necromancer) thread, you’ll see. Also: Necro’s have been getting nerfs because it was warranted, and I’m a saying that as a Necro fan. They simply were over the top in certain aspects. No use in denying it.

1. Read again what I said. I didn’t say we didn’t have teleports. I said we didn’t have any that could get us out in a pinch. Which is a big difference. Spectral walk is good and all, but when you are running away its secondary effect to teleport you back isn’t an option. If you can time it right with jumping off cliffs it could be good. But that is also assuming you don’t already have a tone of conditions and damage on you already so that is out. Flesh wurm isn’t a good one to get you out either. Unless you go in planning to loose, and then you have to make sure its far enough to where they don’t notice it and make sure you be mindful of its distance to teleport which doesn’t make it practical. So, my point stands.

2. Yeah, that is fair. I was rather upset with the change and still not happy about it so I’m sure you can see where I’m coming from.

PS: the problems with the nerfs they ended up doing to the necromancer was they ended up applying them too quickly after the update was released giving people no real time for people to adjust or understand how this effected the metagame. On top of that the nerfs effected the PvE community which was something arena net used to be more mindful of back in GW1.

In the one year that I have played… in actual WvW combat, there have only ever been about 3 instances where someone actively attacked my wurm. It’s wise, before any fight, to place it far away and keep in mind that you do have it. After a while you will learn the good places/places where neutrals don’t find it, places where it doesn’t bug. It’s almost like any other teleport, really. It just teleports back so is requires a bit more planning. As for Spectral Walk —> True, it isn’t like a Blink or Lightning flash, or wurm for that matter, but it does allow you to tank. If you are feeling the heat, use SW, pop DS, dodge and start running… can use Tainted Shackles + Life transfer. Basically you will tank long enough to drag them AWAY from the point where you 1st used it. Then pop SW again and voila, you are away from enemies. Again, it requires a bit more brain and planning cuz it isn’t a simple teleport away, but it’s very effective. But you’re right, it’s not an instant run-away skilll.

The problem is that most people wouldn’t use wurm and SW, or combinations of the skills I listed earlier. I’m not sure how those people even survive in WvW or any PvP. Or any class without defense for that matter. I’m not familiar with that kind of Necro tho… the necro without defense.

Yeah, sorry for sounding like an @$$

Spectral walk isn’t really a viable escape method when being trained because you won’t be able to run away which is required to get any use out of it so in the middle of an engagement it’s useless except for the stun break. It is however great for hit and run attacks and I always slot it when doing WvWvW.

Wurm requires set up and is simply way too situational to be considered a reliable escape method. It’s also not considered a true teleport which makes it even less attractive as you have to keep your wurm out in plain sight where anybody could simply shred it and subsequently prevent your escape.

The skills are by no means bad but they do not help us get out of the kind of scenarios we need help getting out of.

When you’re being focused hard, like from a zerg, the only enemy of using SW if being rooted or slowed. Why? Cuz you cant walk away from the spot where you used it, true. However, when you AREN’T rooted, slowed, etc., you can quite easily walk away from the situation, especially when there’s an enemy/neutral ahead of you which would allow you to use Dark Path. A good strategy when being locked down is… use SW then staff 4 to clear all the annoying stuff, if you have them up at the time. From that point dodge away, and use Shackles + life transfer. Shackles will root any people near you, then you can tele back to the spot while they remain there, rooted. Can drop staff #3 on them to further slow them.

As I said, in one year of constant WvW, my wurm was actively attacked by another player only 3 times. People see wurm as another useless minion standing there. The setup is not hard at all, when you think about it. You see a situation in front of you. It would take you 8 seconds to arrive at the scene, so while you are running to it, you place the wurm. You get there, fight, get focused, press wurm and you are out of the fight. As easy as that. Or.. if you really want, use SW, then wurm away, they will follow you, then you use SW again and teleport wayyyyy back.

I usually don’t post my vids but to prove that I’m not talking rubbish, here’s an older vid. Things are slightly different (better) today than back then, but nevertheless: You can see a few things that I talked about… teleport – wise (teleports come halfway into the vid).

The worm is ok, but it’s very situational…. i don’t believe it’s on par with other teleports or gap closers.

I find the lack of a cheap stability skill to be one of my biggest issues – being ragdolled around EB can get annoying. Having to rely on either a 30 point trait or an Elite skill on monster cool down is not ideal.

As much as I love my necro, my complaint is the same as the others: A lack of stability.

I can’t justify going 30 points into a tree for stability when I don’t like the rest of the tree. I might be able to justify it if there were some useful traits for my power or minion builds in there. I’m just not a fan of the spectral abilities and so the tree offers me very little.

The thing is… Necro wurm:
1) deals damage (about 600-800 every few secs, i’m pretty sure, if within range)
2) Gives you life force when used, which is an indirect heal, as well as poison around you and a blast finisher (which personally, I find useless. I’ve used it as a blast.. never)
3) True that it isn’t really a gap closer, but you’ve got Dark Path. “Yeah but dark path is slow”. You have Staff #3, Scepter #2, Dagger #3, Focus #5, Axe #3, or certain utility skills, and your target will be slow enough for you to use Dark Path, (+Tainted Shackles, if you want) which again chills and slows (and Shackes root).

I rarely get thrown around too too much, because of the teleports and chills/fears. So i can’t imagine how people live without an escape mechanism. Lack of stability is tricky, that’s for sure – but it isn’t impossible :P

I think we need a teleport like mesmer blink, stun break plus maybe aoe poison or blind, hell I’d be happy taking that on my bar even if it was a 90 second cooldown.

Lily.1935:

MethaneGas.8357:

Lily.1935:

snip

snip

1. Read again what I said. I didn’t say we didn’t have teleports. I said we didn’t have any that could get us out in a pinch. Which is a big difference. Spectral walk is good and all, but when you are running away its secondary effect to teleport you back isn’t an option. If you can time it right with jumping off cliffs it could be good. But that is also assuming you don’t already have a tone of conditions and damage on you already so that is out. Flesh wurm isn’t a good one to get you out either. Unless you go in planning to loose, and then you have to make sure its far enough to where they don’t notice it and make sure you be mindful of its distance to teleport which doesn’t make it practical. So, my point stands.

2. Yeah, that is fair. I was rather upset with the change and still not happy about it so I’m sure you can see where I’m coming from.

PS: the problems with the nerfs they ended up doing to the necromancer was they ended up applying them too quickly after the update was released giving people no real time for people to adjust or understand how this effected the metagame. On top of that the nerfs effected the PvE community which was something arena net used to be more mindful of back in GW1.

I agree with Lily here. Though Necromancer is my favorite class, I have two issues with it, and two issues only. In PvE we bring nothing to the table over any other class and we have very little mobility in general with nothing to make up for this. Yes, we have teleports, but…well, they’re only ‘good’ in very specific situations, practical in a few other situations, and dead in most. Flesh Wurm is probably the best one we’ve got (in my opinion). It’s easy to set up, and you can teleport back to its location at a whim, assuming you haven’t gone far enough. If it’s in an obscure enough location, it’s a great escape. This is also extremely useful in PvE. Very nice against bosses like Lupi.

I like Dark Path, but it’s very…fickle, I guess. It’s difficult to get it to work properly, and not only that, it’s very easy to just avoid unless you intend to use it on an NPC. However, this is only 1200 range, and the projectile is quite visible, so if someone’s paying attention they can easily tell what you’re trying to do. It’s also not practical in PvE. I’ve never been in a situation where I’ve needed it other than the express purpose of an extra chill so I could keep something perma chilled.

Now, we’re left with Spectal Walk. It’s a cool gimmick for surviving ridiculous falls or cheating jump puzzles, but the main issue here is that you have to move to make use of its teleport, and the threshold for making use of the teleport is very small untraited…and you most likely won’t trait for spectral skills when there are better options. Running into a fight with it active isn’t viable because you’ll have no time to do anything before you have to make use of it or it becomes wasted. And with our limited mobility, making use of it mid fight is difficult.

MethaneGas.8357:

In the one year that I have played… in actual WvW combat, there have only ever been about 3 instances where someone actively attacked my wurm. <snip>

I’ve killed your wurm at least 7 times in actual wvw combat! But then again, I hate that you run away like a kitten …

Ynot.8397:

MethaneGas.8357:

In the one year that I have played… in actual WvW combat, there have only ever been about 3 instances where someone actively attacked my wurm. <snip>

I’ve killed your wurm at least 7 times in actual wvw combat! But then again, I hate that you run away like a kitten …

Silly Y Not. You and I both know it takes a whole army to kill him. So when you bring the army, it’s only natural to flee. :P

Though, I agree to some extent. He needs to work on his 1v50.

TakeCare.3182:

Ynot.8397:

MethaneGas.8357:

In the one year that I have played… in actual WvW combat, there have only ever been about 3 instances where someone actively attacked my wurm. <snip>

I’ve killed your wurm at least 7 times in actual wvw combat! But then again, I hate that you run away like a kitten …

Silly Y Not. You and I both know it takes a whole army to kill him. So when you bring the army, it’s only natural to flee. :P

Though, I agree to some extent. He needs to work on his 1v50.

Nah, I kill him with sticks.

Haha @ Y Not xD
don’t touch my wurm >:*(

@SolemnMalevolence,
—In PvE, Necros are masters of condi… theres no one else that can stack 1000000 bleeds and epidemic on all those around. The only real problem is the condi cap, which sucks when there’s more than 2 heavy condi people in the team.
— In PvE you don’t really need mobility. I wouldn’t take wurm in a dungeon, for example. If you take Blood is Power, Signet of Spite and Epidemic in a dungeon, you will be godly. By godly, i mean thousands of damage per second.

MethaneGas.8357:

Haha @ Y Not xD
don’t touch my wurm >:*(

@SolemnMalevolence,
—In PvE, Necros are masters of condi… theres no one else that can stack 1000000 bleeds and epidemic on all those around. The only real problem is the condi cap, which sucks when there’s more than 2 heavy condi people in the team.
— In PvE you don’t really need mobility. I wouldn’t take wurm in a dungeon, for example. If you take Blood is Power, Signet of Spite and Epidemic in a dungeon, you will be godly. By godly, i mean thousands of damage per second.

Thief, Warrior, Mesmer and even a bird shortbow Ranger are better at applying bleeds (and poison/weakness/cripple/burning respectively).

You forgot Engi.

I honestly don’t think we’re the ‘masters of conditions’ as far as applying them goes. Though, I’m almost certain we have more ways to pass conditions onto foes and outright get rid of them to benefit us (consume conditions) than any other classes, so there’s that. I also don’t use a condition-based build on my Necromancer. Well…not entirely. I play hybrid.

But, anyway. Though mobility in PvE isn’t entirely important, sometimes it’s needed. Lupi, for example (depending on how you’re fighting him anyway). WvW and PvP is another story entirely, where it’s key for survival. And it’s something we lack, and it’s something that a lot of people have the right to be upset about when every other class has something that’s at least decent.

As a side note…Necromancers deal more damage directly than they can with conditions, when built properly.

—A thief better at applying bleeds? How so? Maybe… but when considering epidemic, Necro can stack 20+ stacks to an area with ease.
-Thief better at applying poison? Signet of spite can be up to 17 seconds of poison (when taking both +40% condi duration food and +30% condi duration from traits), mixed in with about 9 secs of poison from Chilblains, then epidemic… more than enough AoE poison for the whole family, not to mention all the other condis like weakness, Vulnerability, Cripple, chill, etc, when you Epidemic

-A warrior isn’t better at applying bleeds than a Necro. Not by a mile. Maybe to a single target when you use Pin Down + Flurry and some other things, but that’s very single targety. Both skills can affect more than one target, but in a very narrow range. I use a condi warrior, and can stack 20 stacks easily, but never as easily to a group of enemies as with a Necro. AoE Burning? Yes, that’s true. That’s a thing Warriors are better at.

—Mesmer? How so? Debilitating Dissipation (destroyed clones apply condis)? I still don’t think it comes even near Necro’s condi spread

—Shortbow ranger. Spike trap and Sharpening Stone? Ranger bleeds are really single targety

“As a side note…Necromancers deal more damage directly than they can with conditions, when built properly.”
How :o? Death shroud oriented stuff? Piercing Life Blast? Perhaps ^-^

“The Best” or “Masters of Conditions” might have been an overstatement but we are in no way overshadowed by other condi classes.

When you see a group of enemies in PvE and you’ve got Epidemic, Signet of Spite and Blood is Power and you’ve got 30/30/0/10/0, for example:

With an eye on — Cast Enfeebling Blood when entering death shroud — trait and — Leave a Mark of Blood when you dodge — trait:
-Mark of Blood on a group (AoE 3 stacks bleed. 14 or so seconds)
-Chilblains (AoE 9 seconds of poison)
-Grasping Dead (AoE, 3 stacks bleed, 10+ seconds)
-Enfeebling Blood ( 2 stacks, 17 seconds, weakness)
-Signet of Spite (2 stacks, 17 seconds, poison 17 seconds)
-Blood is Power (2 stacks, 10 might + 2 stacks if you transfer)
-Dodge into the group for another Mark of Blood (this one is 2 stacks) from trait
-Enter Deathshroud as you dodge (2 stacks of bleed and weakness) from trait
- Dark Path (3 stacks, about 8 secs + chill)
- Tainted Shackles (AoE torment, 3 stacks)

So we have: about 21 stacks of bleed and more than 20 seconds of poison on an NPC (including other conditions), and a bit less on the surrounding enemies
- Epidemic —> 2x everything to everyone around the target. In other words… bleed cap. You can achieve a bleed cap with doing half of the above actions, as most attacks are AoE. Not to mention a few skills will be off cooldown by the time you use epidemic….

Dalanor.5387:

You forgot Engi.

Didnt put them on because rng is rng, thing is with 3 chances each drop might have as well added em (their value, just like our, is in the plethora of condis that can be on a enemy at the same time, not the sheer stack value of a single condi). But even so we do shine quite nicely in keeping a clumped mob group chilled thanks to plague, wod, DP (no not that kind, the one on Death Shroud you pervs) and chillblains, add 40%~ cond duration and maybe like me hydro sigils (since i like the looks of it and the bit more damage also since its a good enough alternative to energy sigils with the rotation) not only permachill but tend to overkill it if you do it too fast in a row.

Using a dagger and a warhorn, with 30/25/0/0/15 you’ll do more damage with the dagger auto-attack in most groups than you will with conditions. Granted, this is all (for the most part) single-target damage. Condition specs are way better with AoE, but for most bosses you’ll lag behind.

MethaneGas.8357:

When you see a group of enemies in PvE and you’ve got Epidemic, Signet of Spite and Blood is Power and you’ve got 30/30/0/10/0, for example:

Bla bla 6 skills and tons of traits list~
So we have: about 21 stacks of bleed and more than 20 seconds of poison on an NPC (including other conditions), and a bit less on the surrounding enemies
- Epidemic —> 2x everything to everyone around the target. In other words… bleed cap. You can achieve a bleed cap with doing half of the above actions, as most attacks are AoE. Not to mention a few skills will be off cooldown by the time you use epidemic….

Except that a warrior gets 18 bleed stacks in about the same time/less (around 3 3/4 seconds) with 5 trait point+sigil investment (more if you use the on crit bleed over geomancy) via 2 skills and no dodges.
Except that thief gets at least 22 bleeds in 4 1/2 seconds with a 30 point investment and leave with 4 initiative and 70% energy.
Except that mesmers get 15~20 bleeds with a 15 point investment via 2 skills in 2 3/4 seconds.
Except that rangers get 23 stacks of bleeds with 2 skills and true wasting a pet swap in 3 seconds (not to even mention the elite that about half the mobs dont know how to attack and the other half just attacks because of aoe spam also you can make the damage a tad lower but more of a consistent upkeep and team buffs by not going for the open world eagle route but a nice kitty cat lowering it to 20~21 stacks).

Sooo, no your point doesnt stand, we are still a secondary condition class, like how shadow priests aint healers but do kinda heal and mana battery raids in WoW (at least used to).

@ SolemnMalevolence Hmm, yeah you’re probably right, applying condis to a single target is a different story, as you don’t have Epidemic.

@Andele, you may be right when it comes to a small amount of targets. I agree. My warrior can stack a nice amount of stacks really quickly but to a very few targets, for example. When considering AoE, Necros are the bad boy though. You can’t come close to that with a Warrior, or Mesmer, or even Ranger. Ranger is good for single targets, mainly (yeah you have the elite but I dunno). Condi thief is quite good at AoE bleeds as well but doesn’t have AS much access to other condis as a Necro, and doesn’t have as much AoE.

So I guess it comes down to AoE vs. Small scale / single target. Saying we are a secondary class when it comes to condi is like saying Guardians can’t support their team. It’s absurd.

Both Warrior and Thief got the same “cleave” aoe as our epidemic can, one with a burst skill and basic attacks other with no cooldown on any skills and no utility skill usage. If you do use a utility the thieves limitation to 3 instead of 5 targets like epidemic is also mostly gone, Also engie got same area of threat as us only it doesnt require the target of all our bleeds to be in the middle, that only leaves ranger (who get aoe burning on the other hand) and mesmer (derpz reddit video of the TA overseer losing 30% of his hp doing basic attacks since a mesmer got his 25 confusion stacks on over the 10 seconds).
And no, secondary x of y means that you aint specialized in either damage/healing/tanking, but are a build that can do that efficiently/passively while focusing on another thing. Only way necros fall under strong pve condi dps (which is the only situation where you can pull your combo off) is on a boss not immune to terror and that is single target since the fears dont stick around long enough to be epied and even if they did youd need to have a bone fiend there to immob the enemy for long enough to stack it all up and cast epidemic.

Also guardians compared to mesmers ele and rangers are weaker supports, they just got the entire kit over really good specialization in one segment (Feedback>WoR, Spring>well every heal in game except their tome elite cast which is absurdly long, Auras, Fire fields and Conjures from Ele>Guardian versions). That mean just as (little) that guardians are in any way weak for helping their team just as necro being secondary condition profession means that they cannot keep and control condis on the enemies. IT DOES MEAN that your original post how we can keep a bleed cap and it being viable is utter kitten since i have shown that for not only less traits but about a third of the total investment other professions are better primary condi casters for a group.

I’m not sure if you’ve read anything I have said earlier. If you haven’t, please do. Thank you.

Since we are talking about AoE:
-Warrior cleave same as epidemic? What the? Really? …. For those that don’t know, Flurry attacks targets infront of you in a cone 130 range. Epidemic has a radius of 600. Epidemic is 3 times larger. Three. times. larger than Flurry, doesn’t require adrenaline and it isn’t infront of you, it’s everywhere around your target. And another thing. You will likely use a bow for condi warrior, which means you will use Combustive Shot (bow adrenaline skill) for AoE burns, in which case your bleeds drop significantly, unless you generate more adrenaline for Flurry, which takes time.
- I still fail to see how thieves come even close to what a Necro can do when you’ve got about 5 enemies. Necros have got AoE Torment as well. If you took Runes of Tormenting, that’s 2 stacks of torment. Mix in Tainted Shackles and Sigil of Tormenting and that’s 12 stacks of torment to targets around your initial target. On top of EVERYTHING else. How? (Tainted Shackles is 3 stacks, rune is 2 stacks, sigil is one stack. All are AoE. All enemies will have 6 stacks. Epidemic, another 6 stacks to surrounding enemies. 12 stacks. But wait.. I thought condis are our secondary function)
- Does TA overseer use many, quick, consecutive attacks? If so, that likely explains it. If not, well.. that’s one good mesmer then, eh? Perplexity Runes are likely the culprit.

What the? Guardians weaker supports? They are one of the best supports in WvW, hands down. Mesmer support, ele support and ranger supports are in no way better than a guardian (in WvW). I won’t list the differences, as that would be yet another wall of text and I’m hungry.

Andele, do you know why necromancer and engineer are considered the best overall condition build both in pvp, and wvw?

Because they are able to spread them with ease.

And for pve, warrior, thief, ranger and mesmer are in fact better at stacking condition to a single target than necro. But, with condition cap, it is simply more viable to simply spread them, something where necro excell

Poplolita.2638:

Andele, do you know why necromancer and engineer are considered the best overall condition build both in pvp, and wvw?

Because they are able to spread them with ease.

And for pve, warrior, thief, ranger and mesmer are in fact better at stacking condition to a single target than necro. But, with condition cap, it is simply more viable to simply spread them, something where necro excell

Uh, no its because of the condition count that they can apply (engie being able to do everything but fear n torment and necro everything but confusion even if both “weaknesses” are easy to fix with runes)

As an aside, a necro running Scepter/Dagger, Spectral Wall, and Bone Fiend with Dhuumfire can apply every condition in the game. Surprising reliability on it too.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As an aside, a necro running Scepter/Dagger, Spectral Wall, and Bone Fiend with Dhuumfire can apply every condition in the game. Surprising reliability on it too.

Why do you need Spectal Wall? We have an inherent fear in the form of Death Shroud skill 3. Bone Fiend…that immobilizes, right? Death Shroud 5 does that too.

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Why do you need Spectal Wall? We have an inherent fear in the form of Death Shroud skill 3. Bone Fiend…that immobilizes, right? Death Shroud 5 does that too.

Wall + Projectiles = Confusion

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As an aside, a necro running Scepter/Dagger, Spectral Wall, and Bone Fiend with Dhuumfire can apply every condition in the game. Surprising reliability on it too.

Why do you need Spectal Wall? We have an inherent fear in the form of Death Shroud skill 3. Bone Fiend…that immobilizes, right? Death Shroud 5 does that too.

You need Spectral Wall to cause Confusion, since it’s an ethereal combo field (and our only one). Bone Fiend can be replaced with Flesh Wurm, but Bone Fiend has a higher attack rate and double-finishers on its attacks (as opposed to the Wurm’s single finisher).

We are the only class in the game that can cause every condition. Mesmers lack Fear, Rangers lack Torment, Thieves lack Burning, Warriors lack Chill. Elementalists and Engineers lack Fear or Torment, Guardians lack any damaging condition but Burning (and also lack Fear).

Andele.1306:

Poplolita.2638:

Andele, do you know why necromancer and engineer are considered the best overall condition build both in pvp, and wvw?

Because they are able to spread them with ease.

And for pve, warrior, thief, ranger and mesmer are in fact better at stacking condition to a single target than necro. But, with condition cap, it is simply more viable to simply spread them, something where necro excell

Uh, no its because of the condition count that they can apply (engie being able to do everything but fear n torment and necro everything but confusion even if both “weaknesses” are easy to fix with runes)

I feel like you are simply disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing. Yes, it is one of the reason that made necromancer such a powerful opponent to face. And yet, most of those conditions you are talking about are pretty much AOE which further proves my point.

This is what set necromancer and engineer apart from other condition build such as warrior. The way that they can spread all conditions with ease set them apart from other condition builds.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As an aside, a necro running Scepter/Dagger, Spectral Wall, and Bone Fiend with Dhuumfire can apply every condition in the game. Surprising reliability on it too.

Why do you need Spectal Wall? We have an inherent fear in the form of Death Shroud skill 3. Bone Fiend…that immobilizes, right? Death Shroud 5 does that too.

You need Spectral Wall to cause Confusion, since it’s an ethereal combo field (and our only one). Bone Fiend can be replaced with Flesh Wurm, but Bone Fiend has a higher attack rate and double-finishers on its attacks (as opposed to the Wurm’s single finisher).

We are the only class in the game that can cause every condition. Mesmers lack Fear, Rangers and Engineers lack Torment, Thieves lack Burning, Warriors lack Chill. Elementalists lack Fear or Torment, Guardians lack any damaging condition but Burning (and also lack Fear).

We can also turn retaliation into confusion. We might as well argue a wall is not a wall with those contesting necromancer “master of condition” title. At least, the discussion will go somewhere…

Poplolita.2638:

We can also turn retaliation into confusion. We might as well argue a wall is not a wall with those contesting necromancer “master of condition” title. At least, the discussion will go somewhere…

a) reliable uptime
b) no as proven before a lot of other professions can apply conditions in the same or even better controlled aoe
c) No warrior ele mesmer guardian and thief are bad condi classes because they are better in other builds and they are too limited/a 2 condi cleanse negates all their damage and if necros and engies got problems keeping a decent amount of condis on a enemy without cheeze builds (terror/toolkit) what do you think happens to those guys?

@ Drarnor Kunoram, very interesting… I never thought about that o.o I wish staff auto attack had a higher than 20% chance to be a projectile finisher… Staff auto attack through wall would be so excellent :P ( i know you were referring to fiend’s projectiles tho)
@ Poplolita, I agree with you.

@Andele
a) How long is the confusion from a converted boon? 5 seconds? and 5 stacks? with 70% condi duration, that becomes more like 9 seconds. I’d say that’s pretty deadly. But I do agree that access to confusion isn’t the best by a mile, when compared to a Mesmer, for example. Nevertheless, it is there, and it can hurt.
b) Proven? If anything was proven, it was proven that you are wrong. Why? Well.. scroll up, read the last few comments and you will see. Unless you can prove otherwise in the same manner.
c ) First it was said that they outshine Necros, and now it is said that they are bad condi classes? They can have access to a nice amount of condis (for example going against a venom share thief, 1 v 1), but not as much as a Necro AoE- wise. And who says Necros have problems keeping up condis without cheese builds? In a team setting, where the other team throws around cleanses left and right, maybe, but in normal situations, a non-cheese build will still keep up nice pressure. I don’t run Dhumfire or Terror but do bring Corrupt Boon when I need to keep condi pressure on a target, in a group setting. When I do, condi pressure is more than enough to melt a boon-heavy target without Terror OR burning. As for Engis, I have no clue

If there is one thing I’ve learned about arena net from GW1. Its that they are far from flawless. Many changes they have made to professions in the first game where meant to “Nerf” builds that made them even stronger or things they did to “Buff” builds made them weaker. So when they say the change they did was to fix the problems we where having by buffing other parts while nerfing this was a “buff” I have to take it with a grain of salt.

just because you have escaped form a situation using the necromancer’s teleport skills doesn’t make them good. I’ve escaped using dark path before and I do it quite frequently. But that is because I have no other real option to do that. I’ve successfully escaped more often with the engineer’s acid bomb, the guardian’s Line of Warding, or the mesmer’s blink. And my necro has a good 500 hours at least on each of them. Also considering the fact that other professions have far more access to abilities to escape then we do and they are far more successful says a lot.

I think a good chunk of us are in agreement though, that the necromancer’s defenses are seriously lacking in a tone of areas and this nerf done to us a while back has only made it worse.

Lily.1935:

If there is one thing I’ve learned about arena net from GW1. Its that they are far from flawless. Many changes they have made to professions in the first game where meant to “Nerf” builds that made them even stronger or things they did to “Buff” builds made them weaker. So when they say the change they did was to fix the problems we where having by buffing other parts while nerfing this was a “buff” I have to take it with a grain of salt.

just because you have escaped form a situation using the necromancer’s teleport skills doesn’t make them good. I’ve escaped using dark path before and I do it quite frequently. But that is because I have no other real option to do that. I’ve successfully escaped more often with the engineer’s acid bomb, the guardian’s Line of Warding, or the mesmer’s blink. And my necro has a good 500 hours at least on each of them. Also considering the fact that other professions have far more access to abilities to escape then we do and they are far more successful says a lot.

I think a good chunk of us are in agreement though, that the necromancer’s defenses are seriously lacking in a tone of areas and this nerf done to us a while back has only made it worse.

Agreed. Though, ArenaNet seems intent on making us based on attrition or sustain or something of the lack, rather than being able to escape from situations. Which is swell—actually, that style of fighting is rather appealing to me. But they’ve done nothing to make it possible. Lifesteal is a complete joke, even with the recent tweaks to blood-magic, so that’s out of the window. Death Shroud is only manageable (decently) with one build, and even that has its limitations, such as cruddy life force regeneration at range, or the fact that Death Shroud isn’t even a reliable way to survive since blows overflow to our actual health pool.

Your first paragraph sums things up pretty nicely. Everything they’ve done, in regards to Necro anyway, to promote build diversity has just shown us that we have very few things that are viable.

JonathanSharp.7094:

We want to shift more focus to death shroud throug main hand skills, but, again, we don’t want to do this too fast, ESPECIALLY with a major Pax tournament right around the corner.

My apologies for going on a small tangent here. But making pretty big changes to a class just before a Pax Tournament, and removing the key feature for Death Shroud to eat spike damage, is a pretty bad move. You can’t just toss out an entire game mechanic, and make major changes to a class right before a tournament. You just can’t! If anything, if a tournament is on its way, you keep yourself from making any changes to the game at all. It’s not fair to change the way a class plays just before a tournament. How can that be justified?

Mad Queen Malafide.7512:

JonathanSharp.7094:

We want to shift more focus to death shroud throug main hand skills, but, again, we don’t want to do this too fast, ESPECIALLY with a major Pax tournament right around the corner.

My apologies for going on a small tangent here. But making pretty big changes to a class just before a Pax Tournament, and removing the key feature for Death Shroud to eat spike damage, is a pretty bad move. You can’t just toss out an entire game mechanic, and make major changes to a class right before a tournament. You just can’t! If anything, if a tournament is on its way, you keep yourself from making any changes to the game at all. It’s not fair to change the way a class plays just before a tournament. How can that be justified?

How can that be justified? Simple. Necro was grossly under-represented and arguably non-viable in tPvP prior to those changes. Wouldn’t want it to look like the classes weren’t balanced during the big PAX dog-and-pony show or anything, now would we? Gotta keep chasing that E-Sport carrot, ya know.

So Dhuumfire was added to make condimancers viable in tPvP while Death Shroud’s burst negation was removed to prevent them from becoming too OP (as well as the whole falling outside the map issue).

Oops, forgot to remove my tinfoil hat. Silly me. There…now it’s off. Ignore the previous paragraphs; nothing to see here.