Guild Wars 2

What game mechanic? Eating a bit of damage when deathshroud gets depleted? Please. This is far from “whole game mechanic” or “key feature”. Sure, it can absorb a potentially deadly attack but the real problem, imo, is the 1-second skill lockdown when your DS gets depleted. That honestly kills more than the absorb of damage. If you over-relied on DS absorb, sure, it affected you. But if you didn’t bother with it you likely didn’t notice any difference.
-Hell, they buffed spectrals so they can heal DS while in DS. At first when they buffed spectrals, it was OP. Or at least very, very strong ( I personally really liked it and think it should have been left that way). After a while, it was toned down. This is why they are taking it slow… DS has a large potential to be overpowered.

I agree that a bit more life force generation is needed for sustain, but as with any class, you can’t expect to live through heaven and hell if you don’t go at least a BIT into defense.

@SolemnMalevolence, “death shroud manageable with only one build”.. and what build is that exactly. 20 points in Soul Reaping for Soul Marks (if you use a staff) doesn’t define a build, imo, and it’s enough to generate a decent amount of life force. Dropping each mark + 1 auto attack = 4.4% + 13.2% = 17.6% life force. Switch to other weapons set, which for most condi users will be scepter, and you have another condition.
—-So: Bleed, weakness, cripple, poison, chill and possibly burning for Dhumfire people or confusion for Corrupt Boon people. Let’s keep it realistic and say it’s basically 5 conditions.
—Feast of Corruption = 3.3% LF per condition. 3.3% * 5 =17% life force.

So in one small rotation you generated 17 + 17.6 = 34% of your life force. Keep in mind I did NOT include confusion, torment OR burning. That would add to about 44% of your life force. Not bad if you ask me … although after making a miscalculation that equated to 80% of life force, 34% (or 44% with additional condis) does seem a tad bit… disappointing, although not bad because it can be repeated fairly frequently throughout the fight. After the calculations it does seem like a bit more life force generation may be indeed required.

Edit: Thanks Drarnor Kunoram

Feast of Corruption is 8% damage per condition. Life force gain is only 3%.

I wasn’t referring to Soul Marks, really. I don’t know, maybe the life force generation with a scepter/x and soul marks is decent to you, but to me it’s more along the lines of something using dagger/x and axe/x. The life force generation from the dagger auto attack and axe 2 is a lot better than anything a staff and scepter could manage, especially when you factor in gluttony, which I’m unsure stacks with soul marks or not.

Lily.1935:

just because you have escaped form a situation using the necromancer’s teleport skills doesn’t make them good. I’ve escaped using dark path before and I do it quite frequently. But that is because I have no other real option to do that. I’ve successfully escaped more often with the engineer’s acid bomb, the guardian’s Line of Warding, or the mesmer’s blink. And my necro has a good 500 hours

I think a good chunk of us are in agreement though, that the necromancer’s defenses are seriously lacking in a tone of areas and this nerf done to us a while back has only made it worse.

I honestly don’t know why would go and say that after all I’ve said. I even posted 2 videos: one showing that mobility is possible and the other showing that escapes and that combat with that setup is possible. Dark Path is NOT your only means to escape. Should I bother?
-Spectral wall > Line of Warding. SW is a utility, true, but it is much, much more powerful on many levels.
—For example: Multiple target protection source, source of Chaos Armor (if you take a staff. Takes practice, but imo it’s more powerful than blasting Chilblains, which would only cause weakness), it FEARS enemies AWAY from the line, as opposed to a simple knock down (length of their running increases with increased fear/condi duration), it generates life force, can last up to 7.5 seconds, and can even do damage to multiple targets through fear.
-Blink is similar to Wurm
-Acid Bomb is similar to wurm
-Spectral walk is in a WAY similar to the above two mobility skills, as discussed on the last page. Additionally, it can be used to drop off cliffs. No one else has this ability.

All have ups and downs. But Dark Path is NOT your only escape/survival mechanism. Do you WvW? Or PvP? I’m guessing you do because mobility is not a HUGE issue in PvE, generally. If you are so distressed about surviving other players, kindly refer to the above skills. Pick a few, despite being skeptical. Try them for a bit. Give it a bit of time to sink in, then, and only then can we have a proper conversation.

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

to me it’s more along the lines of something using dagger/x and axe/x. The life force generation from the dagger auto attack and axe 2 is a lot better than anything a staff and scepter could manage, especially when you factor in gluttony, which I’m unsure stacks with soul marks or not.

Soul Marks do scale off of Gluttony, hence why I put 3.3% as opposed to 3.0%.
I tested it 2 mins ago, had to be sure :P. One mark gave kitten (it writes kitten when I put four hundred and fifty five, as a number. What the?) life life force. I had 13768 max. Math leads to 3.3%.
I dunno, when I take soul marks I have little Death Shroud management problems, personally. Although warhorn could factor into this as well, since I use it.

@Poplolita, yeah you can’t really stop someone from getting away with the wall :/

Yes, Necros are not the best at mobility, no use saying otherwise, but they have a HUGE amount of health, LOTS of slows (which can potentially mitigate damage), nice access to weakness, AoE roots, some protection, blinds, transfers, crowd control, and Death Shroud. So whereas they cannot move AS much as a warrior or elementalist for example, they compensate in other ways (warriors are a lil too mobile imo). Combine that with the Necro mobility methods described earlier and you’ve got something decent. It just requires quite a bit of work and “offensive defense”, I guess.

@ MethaneGas:

Well made vids, deserve more attention. You seem to be a decent player with above average mechanics and lots of theoretical knowledge, therefore I appreciate your input.

Nonetheless, your assessment of necro`s mobility is somewhat … off, I feel. It might stem from US vs EU differences or simply the tier we play in. I do roam (solo, duo, 5 man) on necro for about 1.5k hours now and while I agree on most of the points you make, it`s just half of the picture.

The current roaming meta in EU consists of 50% stuntastic melandru + lemongrass (lemongrass poultry is THE way to go in EU, you just don`t see many roamers with out it) warriors, 30% PU condi mesmer variations and 20% p/d dire+ perplexity or centaur thiefs. I just didn`t find any decent opponent in your vids that knew how to exploit their classes to give an appropriate example of what roaming on necro looks like usually.

First, the necro heavily relies on cc conditions to make escaping an option. This is hardcountered by lemongrass poultry the moment you are not running a 30-x build or condition build that is suited for +40% condi food. Means there just is no chance in hell, that you will ever be able to apply enough cc to a warrior i.e. (warriors everywhere….) to ensure escape. Same goes for thiefs. Since around 70% of my encounters (mostly 1vX, gold league is a pain the kitten ) include an opposing thief or warrior I am doomed to stay infight without being able to reset enemy target, means I have to win that fight.

Secondly, the opposing roaming classes have either stabilty or very frequent access to teleports which render spectral wall in the current meta not very efficient. They will blink through it or just pop stability.

Please compare a necro maxed out on escape, using wurm, walk and wall to the traited 6s cd teleport of a mesmer that makes you lose target if applied correctly or the unstoppable speedracer a warrior is at the moment. Now tell me again with an honest face that there is not a problem for necro roamers compared to other classes and their max escape options.

Please post a video where you fight a good stun warrior with melandru, lemongrass, anti cc traits and berserker stance and win or escape with the build you used in your latest vid. In my roaming experience, cc cannot be applied long enough to warrant calling it “offensive defense”. This is true for non-condi builds even more.

The only thing that makes solo-roaming possible for me is 30 SR stabi and godlike awareness, and even then, if caught infight by a larger group that really wants you, there`s no way, I`ll get out of that.

Another issue is the upcoming immobilize trend, since a few weeks encountering a 1vX situation usually means root-root-entangle-stun-daze and die.

No offense, I just wanted to point out, that your pov might not tell the whole story and is not taking the current meta into consideration sufficiently (at least the meta I experience here on EU).

Best regards

Moon.6371:

@ MethaneGas:

Well made vids, deserve more attention. You seem to be a decent player with above average mechanics and lots of theoretical knowledge, therefore I appreciate your input.

Nonetheless, your assessment of necro`s mobility is somewhat … off, I feel. It might stem from US vs EU differences or simply the tier we play in. I do roam (solo, duo, 5 man) on necro for about 1.5k hours now and while I agree on most of the points you make, it`s just half of the picture.

The current roaming meta in EU consists of 50% stuntastic melandru + lemongrass (lemongrass poultry is THE way to go in EU, you just don`t see many roamers with out it) warriors, 30% PU condi mesmer variations and 20% p/d dire+ perplexity or centaur thiefs. I just didn`t find any decent opponent in your vids that knew how to exploit their classes to give an appropriate example of what roaming on necro looks like usually.

First, the necro heavily relies on cc conditions to make escaping an option. This is hardcountered by lemongrass poultry the moment you are not running a 30-x build or condition build that is suited for +40% condi food. Means there just is no chance in hell, that you will ever be able to apply enough cc to a warrior i.e. (warriors everywhere….) to ensure escape. Same goes for thiefs. Since around 70% of my encounters (mostly 1vX, gold league is a pain the kitten ) include an opposing thief or warrior I am doomed to stay infight without being able to reset enemy target, means I have to win that fight.

Secondly, the opposing roaming classes have either stabilty or very frequent access to teleports which render spectral wall in the current meta not very efficient. They will blink through it or just pop stability.

Please compare a necro maxed out on escape, using wurm, walk and wall to the traited 6s cd teleport of a mesmer that makes you lose target if applied correctly or the unstoppable speedracer a warrior is at the moment. Now tell me again with an honest face that there is not a problem for necro roamers compared to other classes and their max escape options.

Please post a video where you fight a good stun warrior with melandru, lemongrass, anti cc traits and berserker stance and win or escape with the build you used in your latest vid. In my roaming experience, cc cannot be applied long enough to warrant calling it “offensive defense”. This is true for non-condi builds even more.

The only thing that makes solo-roaming possible for me is 30 SR stabi and godlike awareness, and even then, if caught infight by a larger group that really wants you, there`s no way, I`ll get out of that.

Another issue is the upcoming immobilize trend, since a few weeks encountering a 1vX situation usually means root-root-entangle-stun-daze and die.

No offense, I just wanted to point out, that your pov might not tell the whole story and is not taking the current meta into consideration sufficiently (at least the meta I experience here on EU).

Best regards

Legit explanation. And reason why WvW is so broken. The foods and runes you can get break necro. And necros get outsustained when in a large open field with not a lot of death around you.

And I agree that 30 in soul reaping is the best 1vX traits you can get, plus soul marks I feel is so mandatory to building life force to not die.

You have any luck doing zerks necro? Cause I don’t think its even viable at all compared to other classes. And then condi necro is so kitten in WvW its sad.

The real problem, imo, is the 1-second skill lockdown when your DS gets depleted.

Was trying new builds yesterday.. and ran into this again over and over…

I can’t play an edgy build that borders on supersquishy because of this utility lock.
DS dancing is no option, because of this lock.
Why not trait this utility CD like weaponswap on warriors? ( or just fix it )

How long has it been since this horror of a (imo) bug has been brought to attention?

How are necro’s supposed to counter Bursts when dropping out of DS after trying to negate them trough DS? iow. bursts are so numerous, a full DS depletes with 1-2 hits.
so maybe you can manitain DS for 2-3 seconds.. add another second of totally not being able to use any skill!!

Why does a profession have a 1 second of not being able to use any skills when they use a mechanic that is their main niche..? (transform)

Questions.. more Questions without answer or solution or attention

Merlin Dyfed Avalon.5046:

The real problem, imo, is the 1-second skill lockdown when your DS gets depleted.

Was trying new builds yesterday.. and ran into this again over and over…

I can’t play an edgy build that borders on supersquishy because of this utility lock.
DS dancing is no option, because of this lock.
Why not trait this utility CD like weaponswap on warriors? ( or just fix it )

How long has it been since this horror of a (imo) bug has been brought to attention?

How are necro’s supposed to counter Bursts when dropping out of DS after trying to negate them trough DS? iow. bursts are so numerous, a full DS depletes with 1-2 hits.
so maybe you can manitain DS for 2-3 seconds.. add another second of totally not being able to use any skill!!

Why does a profession have a 1 second of not being able to use any skills when they use a mechanic that is their main niche..? (transform)

Questions.. more Questions without answer or solution or attention

They most likely did that because they have a bug they cant fix or dont want to fix. So they introduce this as a limiting factor.

The bug is, if you have death shroud deplete it doesnt reset the counter for the DS CD which is normally 10s. So lets say you wait in your shroud to deplete from 100% – 0%. If you look carefully at it your shroud when it depletes does NOT have a CD on it. The CD only activates when you push the enter or exit death shroud. NOT when it depletes naturally.

So the reason they lock you out after depleting from death shroud is, if they didnt there would be some high level play where you could re-enter death shroud after you deplete it, instantly to survive more burst.

This is how it would go>Shroud depletes after 10s CD finishes> some form of life force gain injected fast mostly likely spectral armor> reenter shroud to survive more burst (spectral armor continues working in shroud making you stay in shroud longer)> death shroud depletes > pop spectral walk or wurm or things around you die > pop back into shroud eat more damage.

So this is basically A-nets quick fix cause they dont know how to really fix it. Or dont want to.

@ Berullos:

I`m running two more power heavy hybrid builds (both using a mix of celestial, berserker, cavalier and rampager) atm:

30-10-0-0-30 for small group roaming, the more offensive approach since my group is peeling for me. With consumables, guard leech and bloodlust stacks I get around 3.7k attack, 40% critchance, 104% critdmg and 600 condition damage (but only 2.3k armor).

0-20-20-0-30 for solo roaming with relatively low power value (2.8k attack), but 100%+ critdmg and around 700 condi dmg. With consumables, guard leech and bloodlust I get around 3.3k attack, 45% critchance, 114% critdamage (and around 2.65k armor).

Imo necro is THE hybrid class, since DS benefits and scales very well with both dmg sources and a necro will apply conditions, even going full power. Why not giving these conditions some punch while maintaining most of my direct damage?

Best regards

@ Moon,

First of all, thank you

I heard about a similar meta from other people from higher tier servers as well. I play in the very bottom server of NA (Devona’s Rest). The vids are a bit old, before any current meta (hence why there’s no burn/terror Necros, perplex Mesmers, condi theves or stun warriors). I agree I need more current examples. I shall make a vid showing the current stuff soon. I DO have a recent video from the current "meta’ but no stun warriors.

Moon.6371:

First, the necro heavily relies on cc conditions to make escaping an option. This is hardcountered by lemongrass poultry the moment you are not running a 30-x build or condition build that is suited for +40% condi food. .

That’s true. But I do use +40% condi food, which compensates for their lemongrass. Without +40% condi food, damage output is basically non-existent.
— We don’t see many stun warriors down here, but the good ones that I did see, it wasn’t easy. For the most part, they couldn’t kill me (except one [Yarr] warrior), as I could juke them. IF I switched things around -for example, going 30 into SR – and grabbing signet of spite for initial burst which baits Berserk Stance – they panic. They lack any other real cleanse, so they will slowly drop. If they are glassy, at least 1/3 of their health will go down from that single skill. It’s up to kiting until zerk stance wears off. Then it’s time to strike. (I wouldn’t bring wall in a duel against them). This is in a duel setting, however.

Moon.6371:

Secondly, the opposing roaming classes have either stabilty or very frequent access to teleports which render spectral wall in the current meta not very efficient. They will blink through it or just pop stability.

This is… sort of true. I don’t find teleports through to be AS problematic because I tend to stick around the wall. If they teleport through, I go to the other side. Unless I’m on the run. The only teleports that can go over are things link Blink or Lightning Flash, but who’s to say they didn’t use those prior to the chase? A warrior can walk through it with both berserk stance and balanced stance (if they choose to bring one, or both), which is tricky. I try to test the waters with warriors before committing to a fight. I drop a fear and see if the stability trait will proc. If not, I try going on the offensive, forcing them to use berserk stance out of panic. Then it’s up to kiting. Finally i can drop the wall. It may sound pretty on paper but it rarely is as neat out there in the jungle :P especially with more than one person attacking and counter CC. But, I rarely find people able to really cross the wall down, personally. I always flip the camera to watch how people react to the wall. If certain people getting through I try dropping Chilblains or Staff #5. Unless it’s a warrior with Berserk Stance, in which case… panic, a little. But not really. I likely still have a) SW, b) Wurm, c) Plague, d) Dark Path, all of which can be utilized in some kind of escape. Combine that with stability and you won’t go down easy or won’t go down at all.

Moon.6371:

Please compare a necro maxed out on escape, using wurm, walk and wall to the traited 6s cd teleport of a mesmer that makes you lose target if applied correctly or the unstoppable speedracer a warrior is at the moment. Now tell me again with an honest face that there is not a problem for necro roamers compared to other classes and their max escape options.

It is problematic, especially when you compare them to the hyper mobile classes (i find the main culprits to be warriors). Mesmers, who have those teleports also have access to stealth. They don’t have access to as many slows and chills. Frequently, it’s not the wurm or spectral walk that save me by themselves (although often they are enough), it’s a combination of everything. Dropping chills and cripples quickly before porting back can be key. Alternatively, I often (always) flip the camera backwards to cast my slows. Without that, chances of escaping lower by a lot. But to come back to your point. It’s true that Necro doesn’t come close tho that kind of mobility, but I’d argue that it isn’t necessary.

Moon.6371:

Please post a video where you fight a good stun warrior with melandru, lemongrass, anti cc traits and berserker stance and win or escape with the build you used in your latest vid. In my roaming experience, cc cannot be applied long enough to warrant calling it “offensive defense”. This is true for non-condi builds even more.

I’m on it just need to make free time and get some footage. I will take you up on this

Moon.6371:

Another issue is the upcoming immobilize trend, since a few weeks encountering a 1vX situation usually means root-root-entangle-stun-daze and die.

Yes, I wasn’t happy at the beginning of the update. It’s especially ridiculous in large groups when they do manage to lock you down. But that’s also problematic for most others as well, not just necros. If you do go full out on the mobility, I find wurm to be the most effective in these situations. I usually use it as I’m being locked down. It ports to a place where they won’t find too quickly. Or you could use SW, then wurm away. They will chase. You force them to extend, then you use SW again, which will port you back to the very first spot where you were locked down, if that makes sense. If wurm is not up, condi transfer is in order. Of course, this isn’t easy when you’ve got people on you but Foot in the Grave helps. As a last resort you’ve got plague, which will buy some time for one of the escapes (mainly SW in this case) to recharge.

Moon.6371:

No offense, I just wanted to point out, that your pov might not tell the whole story and is not taking the current meta into consideration sufficiently (at least the meta I experience here on EU).

Best regards

No problem. I knew I was poking a wound. I’m sorry for the wall of text, but there’s simply too much to say, even now xD. I will make a new “escape vid” within the next two weeks or so. And I do realize that not many people don’t use a similar build I’m describing.

After some thought:
—You are not a slave to enemy CC. I realized that you are referring to stun warriors that are mobile. This requires a greatsword, which gives them the mobility. But there’s the problem for the warrior – they lose much of stun potential by dropping hammer. They may catch you, but will only be able to use shield stun, which you can dodge with little effort. Bull’s charge is there as well, but that removes one of their utilities. If you cannot dodge it, you can pop DS for stability. Mace F1 likely won’t be usable because they simply won’t have the adrenaline unless they waste Berserk Stance. If they do, they are prone to slows and CC, and if they did use it, you can expect a stun. Again, DS stability. Which brings me to the another point
— Ledges are your friend with wurm and Spectral Walk. Narrow points are your friend with Wall. When you see a ledge, place a wurm (it works in same spots as Blink or lightning flash). A chasing warrior simply doesn’t have a teleport to follow you. Further, look for ledges where you can jump off of while using Spectral walk, especially into water. Make sure SW is in the same slot and under water, and use it before jumping in. They will follow, as they always do, and you will tank while beneath the waves. When you pop SW again, you will be far from trouble on a ledge. Unless I wasn’t paying attention or was ganked, I honestly can’t remember the last time I was legitimately locked down and killed by a group with the setup I have, and I have 0 sources of stability. But again, that’s with that setup/mindset/practice.

MethaneGas.8357:

Lily.1935:

just because you have escaped form a situation using the necromancer’s teleport skills doesn’t make them good. I’ve escaped using dark path before and I do it quite frequently. But that is because I have no other real option to do that. I’ve successfully escaped more often with the engineer’s acid bomb, the guardian’s Line of Warding, or the mesmer’s blink. And my necro has a good 500 hours

I think a good chunk of us are in agreement though, that the necromancer’s defenses are seriously lacking in a tone of areas and this nerf done to us a while back has only made it worse.

I honestly don’t know why would go and say that after all I’ve said. I even posted 2 videos: one showing that mobility is possible and the other showing that escapes and that combat with that setup is possible. Dark Path is NOT your only means to escape. Should I bother?
-Spectral wall > Line of Warding. SW is a utility, true, but it is much, much more powerful on many levels.
—For example: Multiple target protection source, source of Chaos Armor (if you take a staff. Takes practice, but imo it’s more powerful than blasting Chilblains, which would only cause weakness), it FEARS enemies AWAY from the line, as opposed to a simple knock down (length of their running increases with increased fear/condi duration), it generates life force, can last up to 7.5 seconds, and can even do damage to multiple targets through fear.
-Blink is similar to Wurm
-Acid Bomb is similar to wurm
-Spectral walk is in a WAY similar to the above two mobility skills, as discussed on the last page. Additionally, it can be used to drop off cliffs. No one else has this ability.

All have ups and downs. But Dark Path is NOT your only escape/survival mechanism. Do you WvW? Or PvP? I’m guessing you do because mobility is not a HUGE issue in PvE, generally. If you are so distressed about surviving other players, kindly refer to the above skills. Pick a few, despite being skeptical. Try them for a bit. Give it a bit of time to sink in, then, and only then can we have a proper conversation.

How do those videos of WvW relate to PvE where enemies will kill any flesh wurm you spawn, especially in Fractals or dungeons? How does showing me one player who knows what they are doing against a group of players who don’t show me anything? Am I supposed to be impressed by a competent player? How does this fix the multiple aoe attacks that hit over 1,200 range in all directions? How does this change that I can’t fear or immobilize many of them? How does this fix the 5 enemy limit on the Spectral wall? How does this make the nerf any better? Answer? it doesn’t.

In spvp I have noticed people targeting the worm first, and of course it dies fast. In pve and wvw it dies faster.

Lily.1935:

MethaneGas.8357:

Lily.1935:

snip

snip

How do those videos of WvW relate to PvE where enemies will kill any flesh wurm you spawn, especially in Fractals or dungeons? How does showing me one player who knows what they are doing against a group of players who don’t show me anything? Am I supposed to be impressed by a competent player? How does this fix the multiple aoe attacks that hit over 1,200 range in all directions? How does this change that I can’t fear or immobilize many of them? How does this fix the 5 enemy limit on the Spectral wall? How does this make the nerf any better? Answer? it doesn’t.

Agreed @ Lily. The problem with Flesh Wurm, Spectal Walk, and Dark Path isn’t that they don’t work at all, that’s not what most of us are saying. The problem is that they only work in very few situations, which isn’t how mobility should be. The stars shouldn’t have to align just for us to be able to pull off what every other class in the game can do easily. With Flesh Wurm, we have to worry about if the enemy is competent enough to kill it off, or if it won’t get killed by stray AoE, or by anything in general, really. And after that, we have to worry about if the place we teleport to when using the Wurm is still safe. We have no way of knowing if the area we placed our Wurm at is even still a viable area to escape to since we have no vision of it. What if enemies swarm the area where it’s at? What if someone simply -waits- there? There are too many scenarios that can go wrong with the Wurm, that makes it radically different from a blink, in which you teleport, and you know where you’re teleporting to, and it doesn’t rely on a fragile creature being at the position you want to be at.

For Spectral Walk—same deal, different scenarios that need to be accounted for. The biggest thing about SW is that you have to move to put it to use you have to actually move yourself, and therein lies the problem. What if you get immobilized? What if you get stunned—or, to shorten this list, what if you get CC’d at all? Not to mention, the threshold you have to use Spectral Walk is very small, even when traited for. And you probably don’t want to trait for it in the first place. Dark Path has a longer list of “what-ifs” than the other two, making it even more situational.

You might say that these are all just “what-ifs” and that they might not even happen. But none of those things are anything uncommon. A lot of people pack CC in WvW and PvP. Most people know very well what the Flesh Wurm is and will destroy it if it’s put down. It’s not like it’s tanky enough to take punishment either, and it’s not like it does any amount of damage that’d make anyone weary of it. To be honest, the only time I’ve ever found our “mobility” skills useful are Spectral Walk for quickly going back to where I was if I make a mistake in jumping puzzles, and Flesh Wurm in a solo fight against GL, where the teleport can actually get me out of his cage and it probably won’t be stopped. I’ve only ever used Dark Path for a quick extra chill to help me kite, but there are a number of other things that can do this.

Okay so I wasn’t going to reply to Lily. Was hoping someone else would explain the big differences between WvW and PvE. The main thing being: you don’t really need to be mobile in PvE.

-As I keep stating, for the 3rd time now, people simply don’t target wurm in WvW. It just doesn’t happen. That’s an over-exaggeration, but it’s basically the truth. I wouldn’t say it otherwise. Unplug those ears already. Trust me, I remember when someone actively goes for my wurm, and I remember who it is so I know for next time. Simple thing to do. If you still think wurm gets all the ladies, please count how many times they attacked it in my vids (males and females ). How many times they even pay attention to it. And let’s say the stars somehow align and you DO face more than one person. One or two of them decide to go all wacko and attack your wurm, which is likely at a distance greater than 1200 units (or around that). It’s a nice stroll, waste of time.
-On top of that, you’ve got less people to deal with now. I’ll be fair and say that there WERE instances where the minion died without me knowing and I died as a result, but it happenes so rarely it’s basically the same as if your Blink glitches and doesn’t teleport you (mesmers likely know of this glitch). And I’m referring to it dying, not glitching.

-I don’t think you have tried using wurm for long, or at all, SolemnMalevolence. I think a lot of your concerns are hypothetical.
1) Only way it would be killed by stray AoE is if you place it into the battlefield. This is counter intuitive, don’t you think?
2) As I have said before, when you use it at first, NPCs will kill it, yes. But as any intelligent human being, you will quickly (and painfully) learn the “hot spots” of aggressive NPCs. In other words, after a while NPCs will NOT kill your wurm. They simply won’t because you won’t put them around dangerous NPCs.
3) The only reason someone would wait near your wurm was if it was in clear cut area, like an entrance to a keep, or if the person knew what wurm does and they knew you were near. The other explanation is that they are managing their inventory or texting their lover, in which case they won’t be paying much attention. In the scenario that you do port back and find yourself in a mess… well… You better think on your feet.

As for Spectral walk, once again:
-I said earlier how you an get rid of immobilizes while spectral walking. I wouldn’t like to write it again. Spectral walk allows you to TANK people in a decent fashion, ESPECIALLY if you use it in conjunction with Life Transfer, Locust Swarm and Shackles. Most of the time when I’m spectral walking away I’m in DS. Agreed, 8 seconds is not the best, although it’s not extremely bad either. However, with the 12-second SW, I couldn’t disagree more. In the 12 second time frame, you can run farther than 2x Blinks (traited), and likely more.

One last thing that I touched on earlier. You said people go for the wurm in sPvP. I’m assuming it’s one enemy going for your cap point. What are you doing while they are wasting precious time off-point, attacking a minion? You are dropping everything you got. If they leave it alone, its damage is quite decent, actually, especially if the fight goes on for a while. In sPvP, the area is quite small so it will be in range.

This is my last contribution for a while, as I feel like I’m either not explaining it well or it just goes into one ear and out the other. I’m planning on making a tutorial-like vid of all this within a few weeks. Then hopefully you will see it’s true potential.

“-As I keep stating, for the 3rd time now, people simply don’t target wurm in WvW. It just doesn’t happen. That’s an over-exaggeration, but it’s basically the truth”

Maybe at your tier. I know from painful experience in T3 and above that if the enemy can see/get to the wurm, it isn’t going to work out in your favor. You’re better off carrying WoP for the inevitable CC/chain immob spike once they figure out what class you are.

Spectral Walk is best used for juking/cliff diving; and both those only really work out consistently if you already have a lead on your pursuers, i.e, you could just have way pointed out instead.

On demand burst mobility is king in the higher tiers.

MethaneGas.8357:

Okay so I wasn’t going to reply to Lily. Was hoping someone else would explain the big differences between WvW and PvE. The main thing being: you don’t really need to be mobile in PvE.

You don’t play any PvE do you? Putting the wurm up in a “safe area” especially in Fractals or a dungeon isn’t usually an option. And if it is, you don’t have line of sight which means you will teleport to the closest wall and not all the way where you need to go. If the enemy can’t reach it, 9 times out of 10 you can’t either. And neither Spectral walk or Dark Path takes you out of a Legendary boss’s AoE. You’re only option becomes dodging, but unless you know the boss’s pattern perfectly and are not suffering from lag then its going to pressure you very hard if not just kill you. And that last statement is straight up wrong. Mobility is extremely important in PvE. I’ve seen more people die to trash mobs then I should because people don’t move. Its the difference between being able to down champion bosses and eating dirt on a veteran.

Hell, For the New TA path I had to switch from my necromancer to my Mesmer because of how hot one of the bosses was on my tail. I couldn’t escape, couldn’t get out of the way, He homed in on my so spectral walk was useless, Same problem with the Wurm’s line of sight. The Mesmer easily dropped agro, could keep out of harms way, had multiple stun breaks to stop attack and distracted with clones. There was no comparison to the mobility options and just all around defensive options. The mesmer, even with far worse armor and weapons just had all the tools needed to essentially make fun of the boss while the necromancer was easily pulled into its AOE even with prediction.

Also, your WvW experience says nothing about this problem. Many people who play in WvW(but not all, defiantly the ones you faced though) are actually easier to kill then NPCs. Hell, I saw 2-3 people chasing you into Spectral wall hitting it multiple times before it faded… You say its good, I say you where fighting the bottom of the barrel.

Again, agreeing with Lily here. I don’t mean to be offensive here, but I don’t know what tier of WvW you’re in, but in anything decently high the Wurm will probably easily be killed, either intentionally or unintentionally. I don’t play WvW much, but whenever I do and I -try- to use the Wurm, it never works the way I want it to. Here’s the problem. It’s a 1200 range teleport. So, in a zerg vs zerg situation, this is kind of useless, because being 1200 yards away from something like that will mean that you’re still in harm’s way, especially since every other class has more mobility than us. If they want you dead, the wurm teleport won’t stop this.

Okay, let’s assume you’re roaming. It’s not even very useful here. You’re tethered by its range if you keep it out. You -have- to stay within 1200 range of it or else your escape is gone. My biggest problem with it is that it’s a teleport tethered to a mob that you have to be in 1200 range of—that also has to stay alive for when you want to make use of it that also has an underwhelming cooldown. I saw your videos, and the people you fought against were honestly a joke. Note—I’m not saying the Wurm is completely bad, but it’s pretty bad and it won’t work often. Maybe once in a while, but no often.

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does. I don’t know if you run both of these at the same time, if you do, I suppose using both and using Death Shroud would make you pretty tanky, yes. But that’s 2/3 of your utility being used on lackluster skills. Vouch for either all you want, but I’d rather not use things with effects like that that have 1 minute cooldowns. You have skills like Blood is Power, -any- of the Wells, Epidemic, some signets, Spectral Wall if you’re into that kind of thing, and others I’m probably forgetting. Would you really pick Spectral Walk/Armor over these? And furthermore, would you really pick -Flesh Wurm- over these? I certainly wouldn’t, just for the sake of being able to say I have some mobility. I use that term loosely when concerning those skills.

The problem with posting a video for something like this is that it’s one event. Just because in one particular fight, in your particular tier, you cannot say that all players don’t target the wurm, or that spectral walk is the best thing ever and both are on par with Blink.

I’ll end with this. Even if you think these skills are fine for mobility, I’ll bring up something I said earlier in this post. Do you think they’re worth picking over the other skills we have at our disposal? You sacrifice a lot by choosing one of those skills, and I can’t imagine what would make any of them worth it. In any scenario, all I see is you losing damage. Damage that already has to be sacrificed for a reasonable degree of tankiness with your gear in a situation like WvW or even PvP so you don’t get completely trampled.

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does.

Yeah, spectral walk doesn’t allow you to tank anything better – that’s spectral armour.

I’ve been testing it (Spectral Armour) in WvW and it works quite well with deathshroud – pop spectral armour, then deathshroud and it’s quite surprising how tanky you can be – albeit for 7 seconds.

Okay, well, MethaneGas has obviously said that it was going to be his final post so he isn’t going to reply. However, I feel the need to reply to Lily, just once:

Lily.1935:

You don’t play any PvE do you?

First, I just want to establish that we can have a discussion as rational adults without getting upset. Your condescending tone really isn’t necessary. MethaneGas replied to your post with his thoughts on necro mobility and how he feels it is underrated. He has offered help and has made an attempt to better the necro community. This isn’t something to be taken lightly. You have a problem, and he wanted to help you fix it. You may disagree with his advice, and that’s fine, but please, be respectful. We are all people here, not faceless forumers.

Lily.1935:

Many people who play in WvW(but not all, defiantly the ones you faced though) are actually easier to kill then NPCs. Hell, I saw 2-3 people chasing you into Spectral wall hitting it multiple times before it faded…You say its good, I say you where fighting the bottom of the barrel.

It is really unfortunate that you felt the need to be so petulant. To say that it’s easier to kill the people in the videos than it is to kill an NPC is silly. An NPC reacts the same way every time you fight it. You cannot be outplayed by an NPC. That isn’t to say that PvE is a cake walk by any means, but your assertion is just silly, and it unnecessarily belittles other players who are, again, human beings that deserve to be treated with respect. You and I both know that if you put your average player in those situations, they would likely falter. It is really rude of you to suggest that he is only successful in the game because he is playing against “the bottom of the barrel.” I am really disappointed. MethaneGas is clearly an excellent player, and it’s just sad that you would prefer to be condescending and rude to someone who is just offering advice.

As far as the general discussion has gone, the necromancer was not designed to have mesmer-like mobility. The necromancer is the attrition class. It is intended to get into a fight a wittle down it’s opponents with conditions until they die. The necromancer has the highest health pool in the game and it’s class mechanic gives it even more sustainability. However, these things come at a cost. Necromancers lack vigor, decent stability, and easy access to mobility. Every class (except warriors, evidently) has it’s pitfalls. I main an elementalist. I play the only class with the lowest base health and lowest base armor. However, I also have great healing, mobility, etc. If I take a backstab from a thief, it’s likely going to be at least 50% of my health if not 60-70% depending on the thief, and I am in a really tanky build (almost 3k armor). On the necro, you take a backstab, and it might be 30% of your overall health. If you and the thief are both glassy, it might hit as much as 50%, but rarely more than that. I also play a glass, one-trick-pony thief and the necromancer is the only class I have never two-shot (uplevels excluded). That isn’t to say that necro is superior to ele or vice versa, but it’s just an example of how each class has a specific design and that comes with different advantages and disadvantages. If the necromancer had the same easy access to mobility that the other classes have, it would probably make them a little too strong, to be honest.

I am not going to respond to anything after this post, but I hope you consider the things that I’ve said, and I hope that nothing I said is being taken the wrong way because I only meant to be constructive.

Avigrus.2871:

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does.

Yeah, spectral walk doesn’t allow you to tank anything better – that’s spectral armour.

I’ve been testing it (Spectral Armour) in WvW and it works quite well with deathshroud – pop spectral armour, then deathshroud and it’s quite surprising how tanky you can be – albeit for 7 seconds.

Spectral walk does allow you to tank better if you pop into deathshroud. 2% LF gain each hit while in deathroud means that you are probably running faster than the enemies(you have swiftness and they are probably crippled/chilled) and you are gaining health when hit. It isn’t much but what he said is true.

Ynot.8397:

Avigrus.2871:

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does.

Yeah, spectral walk doesn’t allow you to tank anything better – that’s spectral armour.

I’ve been testing it (Spectral Armour) in WvW and it works quite well with deathshroud – pop spectral armour, then deathshroud and it’s quite surprising how tanky you can be – albeit for 7 seconds.

Spectral walk does allow you to tank better if you pop into deathshroud. 2% LF gain each hit while in deathroud means that you are probably running faster than the enemies(you have swiftness and they are probably crippled/chilled) and you are gaining health when hit. It isn’t much but what he said is true.

Still don’t expect to outrun warrior who has like 3000 leaps.

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Again, agreeing with Lily here. I don’t mean to be offensive here, but I don’t know what tier of WvW you’re in, but in anything decently high the Wurm will probably easily be killed, either intentionally or unintentionally. I don’t play WvW much, but whenever I do and I -try- to use the Wurm, it never works the way I want it to. Here’s the problem. It’s a 1200 range teleport. So, in a zerg vs zerg situation, this is kind of useless, because being 1200 yards away from something like that will mean that you’re still in harm’s way, especially since every other class has more mobility than us. If they want you dead, the wurm teleport won’t stop this.

Okay, let’s assume you’re roaming. It’s not even very useful here. You’re tethered by its range if you keep it out. You -have- to stay within 1200 range of it or else your escape is gone. My biggest problem with it is that it’s a teleport tethered to a mob that you have to be in 1200 range of—that also has to stay alive for when you want to make use of it that also has an underwhelming cooldown. I saw your videos, and the people you fought against were honestly a joke. Note—I’m not saying the Wurm is completely bad, but it’s pretty bad and it won’t work often. Maybe once in a while, but no often.

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does. I don’t know if you run both of these at the same time, if you do, I suppose using both and using Death Shroud would make you pretty tanky, yes. But that’s 2/3 of your utility being used on lackluster skills. Vouch for either all you want, but I’d rather not use things with effects like that that have 1 minute cooldowns. You have skills like Blood is Power, -any- of the Wells, Epidemic, some signets, Spectral Wall if you’re into that kind of thing, and others I’m probably forgetting. Would you really pick Spectral Walk/Armor over these? And furthermore, would you really pick -Flesh Wurm- over these? I certainly wouldn’t, just for the sake of being able to say I have some mobility. I use that term loosely when concerning those skills.

The problem with posting a video for something like this is that it’s one event. Just because in one particular fight, in your particular tier, you cannot say that all players don’t target the wurm, or that spectral walk is the best thing ever and both are on par with Blink.

I’ll end with this. Even if you think these skills are fine for mobility, I’ll bring up something I said earlier in this post. Do you think they’re worth picking over the other skills we have at our disposal? You sacrifice a lot by choosing one of those skills, and I can’t imagine what would make any of them worth it. In any scenario, all I see is you losing damage. Damage that already has to be sacrificed for a reasonable degree of tankiness with your gear in a situation like WvW or even PvP so you don’t get completely trampled.

I’ll try to answer all your thoughts as he said he is done. First off he is in bronze league and like many of the better bronze league players a roamer. That means he is not sitting in zergs where using the wurm is actually a very effective tactic. Sure, in a zerg fight that wurm dies every time. If we are in one of the other areas of wvw you can set that wurm somewhere in the distance and fight it out without the wurm even being bothered.

Correct me if I’m wrong but the wurm still teleports you in its direction even if you are more than 1200 range. I’m not positive as I hardly ever use it but I think that is the case.

Spectral walk does make you a bit tankier if you pop deathshroud. 2% life force gain per hit while you have swiftness and your enemy is most likely chilled/crippled means they are not landing many hits and those that do hit might be healing you. If you are focusing into spectrals as a roaming spec you usually want to be running with spectral mastery, so 48s cd. This is especially true if you are using walk and wall. Wells are useless as a roamer and those other skills don’t help a ton in 1v1. If you are good enough your condis should work just fine against someone with the added survivability those other utilities give you. Yes you could be using signet of spite for added damage which will add a bit of damage, or I can run away for a bit and hit them from range while I have swiftness for 30 seconds and they are chilled 70% of the fight.

You are both right depending on the situation. You only need a bit of context to figure out in which way you are right.

Afya.5842:

Ynot.8397:

Avigrus.2871:

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does.

Yeah, spectral walk doesn’t allow you to tank anything better – that’s spectral armour.

I’ve been testing it (Spectral Armour) in WvW and it works quite well with deathshroud – pop spectral armour, then deathshroud and it’s quite surprising how tanky you can be – albeit for 7 seconds.

Spectral walk does allow you to tank better if you pop into deathshroud. 2% LF gain each hit while in deathroud means that you are probably running faster than the enemies(you have swiftness and they are probably crippled/chilled) and you are gaining health when hit. It isn’t much but what he said is true.

Still don’t expect to outrun warrior who has like 3000 leaps.

Warriors are the most mobile class in the game. If you can make a spec that can outrun a warrior on anything but a thief you have done an amazing job. Doesn’t really matter what you do on a necro. His spec won’t hurt though and it is better than most.

Lily.1935:

MethaneGas.8357:

Okay so I wasn’t going to reply to Lily. Was hoping someone else would explain the big differences between WvW and PvE. The main thing being: you don’t really need to be mobile in PvE.

You don’t play any PvE do you? Putting the wurm up in a “safe area” especially in Fractals or a dungeon isn’t usually an option. And if it is, you don’t have line of sight which means you will teleport to the closest wall and not all the way where you need to go. If the enemy can’t reach it, 9 times out of 10 you can’t either. And neither Spectral walk or Dark Path takes you out of a Legendary boss’s AoE. You’re only option becomes dodging, but unless you know the boss’s pattern perfectly and are not suffering from lag then its going to pressure you very hard if not just kill you. And that last statement is straight up wrong. Mobility is extremely important in PvE. I’ve seen more people die to trash mobs then I should because people don’t move. Its the difference between being able to down champion bosses and eating dirt on a veteran.

Hell, For the New TA path I had to switch from my necromancer to my Mesmer because of how hot one of the bosses was on my tail. I couldn’t escape, couldn’t get out of the way, He homed in on my so spectral walk was useless, Same problem with the Wurm’s line of sight. The Mesmer easily dropped agro, could keep out of harms way, had multiple stun breaks to stop attack and distracted with clones. There was no comparison to the mobility options and just all around defensive options. The mesmer, even with far worse armor and weapons just had all the tools needed to essentially make fun of the boss while the necromancer was easily pulled into its AOE even with prediction.

Also, your WvW experience says nothing about this problem. Many people who play in WvW(but not all, defiantly the ones you faced though) are actually easier to kill then NPCs. Hell, I saw 2-3 people chasing you into Spectral wall hitting it multiple times before it faded… You say its good, I say you where fighting the bottom of the barrel.

It is a different kind of mobility in pve and wvw. In wvw you need to dodge a lot because that person is going to be using skills when it best suits him. That pve mob is scripted to use his massive attack every 20 seconds and he will use that attack every 20 seconds. Comparing pve to pvp for most classes is silly, and for necro above all.

Ynot.8397:

Afya.5842:

Ynot.8397:

Avigrus.2871:

SolemnMalevolence.5248:

Also…Spectral Walk does not make you tankier. Spectral Armor does.

Yeah, spectral walk doesn’t allow you to tank anything better – that’s spectral armour.

I’ve been testing it (Spectral Armour) in WvW and it works quite well with deathshroud – pop spectral armour, then deathshroud and it’s quite surprising how tanky you can be – albeit for 7 seconds.

Spectral walk does allow you to tank better if you pop into deathshroud. 2% LF gain each hit while in deathroud means that you are probably running faster than the enemies(you have swiftness and they are probably crippled/chilled) and you are gaining health when hit. It isn’t much but what he said is true.

Still don’t expect to outrun warrior who has like 3000 leaps.

Warriors are the most mobile class in the game. If you can make a spec that can outrun a warrior on anything but a thief you have done an amazing job. Doesn’t really matter what you do on a necro. His spec won’t hurt though and it is better than most.

I know. Just saying, that swiftness really won’t do much helping you flee away from focus. One or two leap will already catch you. I run Swalk but mostly for the stunbreak and longer spectral uptime.

This guy is so kitten. right! How is it possible that a thief can beat 3+ enemies if he is played good? If two players at the same skill level fight each other, who will win? – No one, unless the enemy has better stats or the class has better abilities. A necro cant win against 3+ opponents at the same skill level. Why? Because the abilities arent good enough! Without Death Shroud a necro would be just nothing but still with Death Shroud a necro is not powerfull enough. People may say:" But why am i beaten by necros so often?“- Answer:” Because he was better than you!". Thats the answer. Necro isnt overpowered at all! (btw. im talking about WvWvW)
Let me give you an example:
A famous build for necros is the “Dhoomfire Build”. A Necro won`t be in the Deathshroud for more than 5s. Or even less. He will enter his deathshroud again when he is either almost dead or when he is repeating his rotation.
Why? – Because the only usefull skills in the deathsroud are 2,3 and 5.
Death Shroud NEEDS to be buffed! Life Leech? – Useless!

Again!: When a guardian and necro meet at the same skill level, the guardian would win! Or a thief and so on!
Necro is also extremely slow! Almost every class has a leap and a teleport, an immediate teleport! What the kitten! Look at warriors its the most kitten- runaway – Class in the game. But thats another topic…

SO: What does the necro need? – A buffed death shroud! I think with more abilities not more HP. And the necro needs a higher mobility! Both could be mixed.

I hope AN reads this! Bye

Afya.5842:

I know. Just saying, that swiftness really won’t do much helping you flee away from focus. One or two leap will already catch you. I run Swalk but mostly for the stunbreak and longer spectral uptime.

That is true for any class though. This isn’t a Necro problem, a warrior will catch up to everyone except a thief with all his shadowsteps available, or another warrior with one less leap or some other minor handicap.

TakeCare.3182:

First, I just want to establish that we can have a discussion as rational adults without getting upset. Your condescending tone really isn’t necessary. MethaneGas replied to your post with his thoughts on necro mobility and how he feels it is underrated. He has offered help and has made an attempt to better the necro community. This isn’t something to be taken lightly. You have a problem, and he wanted to help you fix it. You may disagree with his advice, and that’s fine, but please, be respectful. We are all people here, not faceless forumers.

First, he was undermining my thoughts and telling me that my perception of the situation wasn’t valid because he had a different experience in a completely different game type.
Second, I tried being reasonable with him and explain the situation from a PvE perspective. He did not listen or pay any mind to it.
Third, He continued to under mind my experience in the format I love most and seemed to blatantly ignore my concerns and neither provided a reasonable solution or constructive response.

I asked a valid question because the statement he said showed me that his experience with PvE was limited at best. And I also said Some players, not all, or most. He acted like his video was the be all end all of discussion and when that was challenged his response was to undermine my experience.

You want to blindly agree with him, fine. But don’t expect me to be kind about this anymore. I’ve been battling for the necromancer since I started this game and I’m not going to quit just because someone doesn’t agree with me.