Guild Wars 2

I just wanted to share this insight with everyone in WvW…

I am a Necro main for about 2 years now, roaming mostly solo in WvW seeking solo impromptu fights…

After the past few patches, I felt necromancers were getting left behind in the power creep. I had just about abandoned necromancers and gone for a low skill floor dragonhunter for roaming…

Dragonhunter was fun, mobile, strong. 6 months of DH and I was just about killing almost every single opponents I met. Everything the necro wasn’t. But it wasn’t the same…it wasn’t MY NECRO!!!!

I went back to the Necro forums in search of a hope, a light to tell me that necros can still compete in the current meta in WvW solo fights…

it was a revelation to me after I spoke to necromancer greats like Hesacon and Flow in the Necro forums.

Necromancers are actually strong solo duelists even in the current meta!

The reason why many necros feel weak is because necromancers have a high skill floor!
You need way more skills to play necros well and effectively to compete in the current meta.

I’m falling in love with my necro again and I wish all fellow necros to stay strong and continue to improve!

When you reach the high skill floor needed to play a necro well, you will get an immense joy roaming with your necro again.

Of course, if you are looking for lower skill floor classes, then necro is probably not for you.

How great is necromancer great Flow? in his own words which I believe, and it was this belief that I could one day possibly reach his heights, that has propelled me to continue roaming with my necro! (he was referring to duels against thieves on his necro by the way in the necro forum how to beat a thief thread)

flow.6043:

Needless to say, I have indeed beat Sindrener and every other popular thief you can think of several times in a 1v1, simply because I’ve played long enough to have encountered all of them lots of times.

But of course, you took what I said to literally mean 100% winrate against every thief ever.
No, obviously I meant that I’ve had arranged duels on several occasions in which I won most fights. Or I had single chance encounters which I also mostly won.
The losses among those fights, however, were never ever because that opponent had a build advantage over me.
In fact, most times I used to hold back my elite skill and sometimes even some more utility skills in addition to that, just so I would even the playing field by giving myself a handicap. And yeah, you’ll probably think again that those opponents must’ve been bad, but they weren’t.

Anyway, it’s your word against mine at this point.
If you still don’t believe me, and if you’re on EU, I’ll gladly take yours or anyone else’s challenge to a duel.

Necro need to calculate where enemies are in future because every skills is so frigging slow to cast.

Junkpile.7439:

Necro need to calculate where enemies are in future because every skills is so frigging slow to cast.

The updated Instant ground targeting makes staff a really effective weapon against thieves, now you can follow the thief’s movements and cast marks where your mouse is at the end of the cast rather than the start.

There is nothing wrong with Necro. I haven’t had any issues with anything. Perhaps those that complain just don’t know how to play Necromancer =/
Usually those that are outspoken are the ones that are upset anyway. I seldom see positive threads. This one was kind of odd, implying Necro had issues but maybe I’m too naive or I don’t run into difficult opponents but I never lose fights when on my necro unless I’m outnumbered or caught off guard.

Warcry.1596:

There is nothing wrong with Necro. I haven’t had any issues with anything. Perhaps those that complain just don’t know how to play Necromancer =/
Usually those that are outspoken are the ones that are upset anyway. I seldom see positive threads. This one was kind of odd, implying Necro had issues but maybe I’m too naive or I don’t run into difficult opponents but I never lose fights when on my necro unless I’m outnumbered or caught off guard.

Im gonna add you for some duels later. Already got flow showing me a few tricks but wanna get more people for more show.

Nec is considered as a low skill floor class in a sPvP environment. In 1v1s the skill difference between other classes is reduced, even tho i would say nec is still easier to get good at than most classes. Mastering it is hard tho, but u can say the same from pretty much any other class, so… Theres always room for improvement, but its more given by the combat system than nec itself imo

Krysard.1364:

Nec is considered as a low skill floor class in a sPvP environment. In 1v1s the skill difference between other classes is reduced, even tho i would say nec is still easier to get good at than most classes. Mastering it is hard tho, but u can say the same from pretty much any other class, so… Theres always room for improvement, but its more given by the combat system than nec itself imo

Considering how many people complain about Necros being weak, it seems it’s just your know-how that’s making you feel that Necros are easy to pick-up.

As a person who started out playing Guardian and then going to engie and then Necro, I can tell you it does take a bit of getting used to, when it comes to managing two health bars and knowing how to move between them and knowing the appropriate moments to do so.

Would really enjoy it if other power necros would add me and exchange some tips and tricks and maybe some duels if you guys are on EU! Been playing necro since launch but now seriously getting into power necro in wvw. hopefully speak to some of you guys soon!

Necro requires good positioning to survive, and it can be efgective, but it is underpowered right now.

Mikhael.2391:

Warcry.1596:

There is nothing wrong with Necro. I haven’t had any issues with anything. Perhaps those that complain just don’t know how to play Necromancer =/
Usually those that are outspoken are the ones that are upset anyway. I seldom see positive threads. This one was kind of odd, implying Necro had issues but maybe I’m too naive or I don’t run into difficult opponents but I never lose fights when on my necro unless I’m outnumbered or caught off guard.

Im gonna add you for some duels later. Already got flow showing me a few tricks but wanna get more people for more show.

I don’t know who flow is but this may be fun

Warcry.1596:

Mikhael.2391:

Warcry.1596:

There is nothing wrong with Necro. I haven’t had any issues with anything. Perhaps those that complain just don’t know how to play Necromancer =/
Usually those that are outspoken are the ones that are upset anyway. I seldom see positive threads. This one was kind of odd, implying Necro had issues but maybe I’m too naive or I don’t run into difficult opponents but I never lose fights when on my necro unless I’m outnumbered or caught off guard.

Im gonna add you for some duels later. Already got flow showing me a few tricks but wanna get more people for more show.

I don’t know who flow is but this may be fun

Hes more experienced power necro than i am. already duelled him in guild arena on my own necro and he did beat me more times. He has more playtime than me for sure from his lvl from what i could see tho on my guardian/Dh i think i had the upper hand most times due to the class being better imo.

Cecilia.5179:

Necro requires good positioning to survive, and it can be efgective, but it is underpowered right now.

That’s one thing I’m learning pretty fast and I have seen other necros fail at horribly. They see shroud as a dmg shield, yes it is, but they don’t try to protect it at all and just view it as face tank mode. Gotta protect that shield and make it count with proper positioning, dodging and Los and not just camping it from 100%-0% and then trying to recharge it while still being under fire. It just doesn’t work out too good that way ;-)

Eremite, I’m not sure I deserve all this praise just for the things I said in another thread, but thx anyway.

Mikhael.2391:

on my guardian/Dh i think i had the upper hand most times due to the class being better imo.

Hmm I wasn’t keeping score, but upper hand sounds a bit more one-sided than it actually was ;P
Anyway, like I said in game, if I changed some traits (and I will next time) you’d see a drastic win rate increase in my favour. So even if you won more fights it wasn’t because guardians are “the better class” in this matchup in general.

Mikhael.2391:

Hes more experienced power necro than i am.

My interim conclusion from our last encounter was that you simply play your guardian a lot better than your necro. Lack of experience doesn’t seem to be the only issue here, it’s more like you needed a fresh perspective or mentality shift on how you could build or handle your necro against certain other classes.

Btw, I’m definitely more experienced than you on power builds as well, but my own build really is a hybrid, it wouldn’t work without having a considerable amount of condition damage. So it’s like a condition build at heart that does more direct than condition damage. A feature that falls rather flat against DHs though, I admit.

flow.6043:

Eremite, I’m not sure I deserve all this praise just for the things I said in another thread, but thx anyway.

Mikhael.2391:

on my guardian/Dh i think i had the upper hand most times due to the class being better imo.

Hmm I wasn’t keeping score, but upper hand sounds a bit more one-sided than it actually was ;P
Anyway, like I said in game, if I changed some traits (and I will next time) you’d see a drastic win rate increase in my favour. So even if you won more fights it wasn’t because guardians are “the better class” in this matchup in general.

Mikhael.2391:

Hes more experienced power necro than i am.

My interim conclusion from our last encounter was that you simply play your guardian a lot better than your necro. Lack of experience doesn’t seem to be the only issue here, it’s more like you needed a fresh perspective or mentality shift on how you could build or handle your necro against certain other classes.

Btw, I’m definitely more experienced than you on power builds as well, but my own build really is a hybrid, it wouldn’t work without having a considerable amount of condition damage. So it’s like a condition build at heart that does more direct than condition damage. A feature that falls rather flat against DHs though, I admit.

I meant upper hand in the sense of duelling with your main wvw build without specing just for one class i could maybe tweak my build aswell for some more condi cleansing or cc just for necro but the idea was for us to fight with what we would go in wvw roaming. and if your more experienced in power builds than me then your way more experienced in condi builds coz i really never liked them.

I play abit of nearly every class, and consider myself a bad player.
And though people find DH good (like em mostly because of the aestethic) I find my elementalist to be way better.
I always wanted to be good, or try Necros, love the health and minions (main ele, guard and thief so no heath here).

And though I read that people dislike Death shroud, I kinda liked to discourage my enemies, by shifting between it to regain health.

But I just nee dto stay away from the dorums, I get to influenced by the negative posts xD

That said, I love seeing other ppl build etc.

Flow is the truth.

He predicted blood magic a year ahead.
He used axe before it was cool.
His flesh golem actually listens to him.
His charr looks rivaled mine.

Remember kids, nobody escapes the flow of time.

I’ve always known Necros have a high skill ceiling, I mean that’s probably cuz all I play in MMOs is Necros (or Sorcerer, whichever class they offer that’s closest). My IG name is my nickname irl simply because family and friends know I’m the Necromancer lol

Skill ceiling aside, Necros also isn’t too difficult to pick up. It takes some adjusting, learning that you’re meant to tough it out for the entire fight rather than kill your opponent in one hit, but it’s not too complicated to grab some lifesteal, beef up your offenses and go to town. That being said, it takes skill to actually sit down and perfect/master the Necromancer class (just like every other class) because you have 2 health bars to manage, you gotta know your Utilities, Traits, Combos, and Lifeforce management. Most amateur Necros will use Shroud as an emergency clutch or as their primary burst ‘weapon’ when in reality Shroud is meant to be woven in with your weapon rotations. Sitting in Shroud and trying to just land autos for Might/Vulnerability stacks is the perfect way to deplete your LF and essentially kill yourself. Whenever you swap into Shroud (speaking Reaper here) you want to pop (and shatter) your 3, pop your 5, dash in with your 1 (Frozen Aura) and spin to win with your 4 (Freezing Bolts). After that EXIT SHROUD and return to your rotations, don’t sit there with your autos using it as a shield until it’s bone dry.

Just my take on the matter though, everyone plays their own way and as such my opinion remains as nothing more than my opinion. I’m no pro, I’m still an amateur as well, I’m just agreeing with the OP.

Flumek.9043:

Flow is the truth.

He predicted blood magic a year ahead.
He used axe before it was cool.
His flesh golem actually listens to him.
His charr looks rivaled mine.

Remember kids, nobody escapes the flow of time.

I lol’d

#hipsternecro
#charrmasterrace

As one of the few who runs Zealot’s Necro, I don’t think Power Necro was ever actually bad (at least since specializations were introduced), just that other options were better. Of course, I run the sustain game, which requires either Unholy Sanctuary or Blighter’s Boon to work (blood magic life steal is still a bit too weak to work it alone).

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As one of the few who runs Zealot’s Necro, I don’t think Power Necro was ever actually bad (at least since specializations were introduced), just that other options were better. Of course, I run the sustain game, which requires either Unholy Sanctuary or Blighter’s Boon to work (blood magic life steal is still a bit too weak to work it alone).

Interesting, I would’ve though BM would compliment DM and BB; you heal every hit, as well as for every Boon you gain when you hit (Spite Might) and you have a passive heal from Unholy Sanc. How wouldn’t BM work well in a sustain build? Normally you run Minions for the added defenses and to draw aggro, so BM also gives them lifesteal for both you and themselves. I’m just confused here, I can see why DM would be good cuz you gain more Power from that Trait line as well as a few additional defenses (not much but good enough). Idk I just always thought BM and DM worked well together.

Okami.7049:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

As one of the few who runs Zealot’s Necro, I don’t think Power Necro was ever actually bad (at least since specializations were introduced), just that other options were better. Of course, I run the sustain game, which requires either Unholy Sanctuary or Blighter’s Boon to work (blood magic life steal is still a bit too weak to work it alone).

Interesting, I would’ve though BM would compliment DM and BB; you heal every hit, as well as for every Boon you gain when you hit (Spite Might) and you have a passive heal from Unholy Sanc. How wouldn’t BM work well in a sustain build? Normally you run Minions for the added defenses and to draw aggro, so BM also gives them lifesteal for both you and themselves. I’m just confused here, I can see why DM would be good cuz you gain more Power from that Trait line as well as a few additional defenses (not much but good enough). Idk I just always thought BM and DM worked well together.

BM is subpar because it has no output. As a necro you need to control targets and BM does not do that at all. It is good for transfusion and raw damage, but transfusion is middling utility and you get more raw damage out of spite.

Spite on the other hand has Might on LF1 which would actually let you camp DS for healing between Unholy Sanc and Blighter’s Boon, and also has the severely underrated Spiteful Spirit, which takes chunks out of people on practically no cast time, strips boons, and grants up to 5 ticks of retal (and therefore 5 ticks of Blighter’s Boon).

With Axe being quite a bit more powerful, including Ghastly Claws having higher damage than Gravedigger, Unholy Fervor has become extremely powerful for any power build. CD reductions on Ghastly Claws and Unholy Feast are massive- and again Unholy Feast feeds your BB for even more gains.

One place I would differ with Drarnor would be to think about running Magi’s or possibly a Magi’s/Zealot’s mix (Mender’s, basically). A bigger life force pool means your % gains from Ghastly Claws and Blighter’s Boon provide that much more life force, and therefore that much more raw HP from the Unholy Sanc conversion and DS1 spam .

Okami.7049:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

… I run the sustain game, which requires either Unholy Sanctuary or Blighter’s Boon to work (blood magic life steal is still a bit too weak to work it alone).

Interesting, I would’ve though BM would compliment DM and BB;
…
How wouldn’t BM work well in a sustain build?

He said “too weak to work alone”. So he does use BM as well.
Obviously vamp traits easily outperform Unholy Sanctuary, even with zealot stats.

I know Drarnor is a fan of Unholy Sanctuary, but when you already have Blighter’s Boon you probably get more overall sustain when you combo it with Spite. Also, every specialization is currently better than Death Magic.

Sarrs.4831:

BM is subpar because it has no output.

?

Sarrs.4831:

As a necro you need to control targets and BM does not do that at all.

Control? As opposed to which other spec?

Sarrs.4831:

It is good for transfusion and raw damage, but transfusion is middling utility and you get more raw damage out of spite.

I think you don’t understand Blood Magic.
Vamp traits are currently by far our best sustain option. And that’s just one part of BM, there’s more to it than just Transfusion, you know.

Sarrs.4831:

Magi’s/Zealot’s mix (Mender’s, basically).
…more life force, and therefore that much more raw HP from the Unholy Sanc conversion and DS1 spam .

That’s not true. US and Blighter’s in Shroud heal for a static amount of hp, the size of your lf pool has no influence on that.

I dueled with Flow months ago, and he’s one of the best necromancers I’ve ever fought
Flow has also taught me a few tricks, but the problem is this:
In 1 v 1, necro has good adaptability, and a vast kitten nal of skills ready to counter different builds. But in a teamfight, there is not always time to change skills according to the enemies that you are going to face. And while, for example, warriors,mesmers, or guards, are able to counter both power and conditions thanks to their invulnerabilities, necros are easy target in a teamfight since they have 0 mobility, invulnerabilities and so on. That’s why in most cases other classes have better performance and are easy to pick.

@Flow
-What build you recommend for 1v1? What kind of choices you make according to the enemy that you’re going to deal with?
-What build you recommend in a small scale teamfight? And in large scale?
-What do you think about the meta necro in spvp? That’s real the best build around?
-Often I see you using base necro. When is better to use Necro and when the Reaper in wvw/pvp?

Thanks in advance if you answer it’s always nice to hear the opinion of a necro masterclass

kappa.2036:

What build you recommend for 1v1? What kind of choices you make according to the enemy that you’re going to deal with?

I rarely ever make build recommendations, because a lot of necro builds work well in 1v1s anyway or can be made to work with a few tweaks.
And I tend to not promote my own build because it isn’t as self explanatory as builds you might find on metabattle.

Adepting my build to my opponent only happens on rare occasions.
I’m talking strong players that I have the privilege of fighting 10-20 times in a row.
With so many repititions you can statistically weed out the fluke wins or losses from innate advantages or disadvantages of one’s build. So in this case you can make adaptations to influence the outcome. Typically this would involve a shift in defensive skills towards either more condition cleanses, more life force regeneration or additional interrupts.
But other than that I try to stick to a flexible setup that is useful most of the time, which is one of the reasons I play with hybrid stats.

kappa.2036:

What build you recommend in a small scale teamfight? And in large scale?

The same you would use in 1v1s.

Most skills you would use in duels are aoe anyway, so your offensive pressure in team fights (which is why you take a necro in the first place) usually doesn’t require any build changes.

kappa.2036:

What do you think about the meta necro in spvp?

This question very much ties into your previous one.

Taking a necro in PvP is very risky.
You’ve mentioned defensive scaling issues in team fights. This is true for all necro builds and it can hardly be mitigated by picking defensive stats.
And the often frustrating part here is that not being a liability to your team isn’t entirely your resposibility. There isn’t a whole lot you can do when you get focused by several opponents with low or no life force, and depending on your team composition your team might not be able to do anything about it either. Few classes can peel effectively, few classes can safe rez fast enough and few classes share a decent amount of healing for you to recover, should you survive the initial phase of the engagement at all.

Speaking of which, it still amazes me how most healing still doesn’t go through Shroud.

At least once a month there’s a thread about it on the necro or pvp forum, and every time some ignorant people argue against it as if this would somehow be abused into making necros immortal. (It wouldn’t)

At least 10 times more often you get complaint threads about how weak necros are in PvP and how easy they die to focus fire in team fights.

So the general consense seems to be: necro is decent in 1v1, but sucks in 5v5.
All more healing through Shroud would do, however, is improve our position in 5v5 and change almost nothing in 1v1s. It would be the perfect approach to partially fixing the scaling issues with our defensive mechanics.

Anyway, like I said, it blows my mind that heals not going through Shroud is still a thing 4 years into the game. And imo it is the biggest issue that is holding necros back, always has been.

kappa.2036:

Often I see you using base necro. When is better to use Necro and when the Reaper in wvw/pvp?

It’s a matter of build preference.
Most of the the time Reaper’s Shroud is better than Death Shroud. But arguably the Reaper specialization traits are weaker than some combinations of core specs. So that’s where it evens out a little, which is why vanilla necro can be a side grade to Reaper rather than a downgrade.

Although I really wish they’d add a tiny bit of stability to Tainted Shackles.

flow.6043:

I think you don’t understand Blood Magic.
Vamp traits are currently by far our best sustain option. And that’s just one part of BM, there’s more to it than just Transfusion, you know.

I kind of disagree here. I run a hyper sustain build that doesn’t use bloodmagic at all. It uses BB, and other sustain tools from spite/soul reaping, to give me massive amounts of life force, which means i can pop in and out of shroud consistently when there are 2 or more enemies (i run shouts as well).

It gives me a lot of team fight presence, and most games (unranked), i never die. Not once.

If your aim is to win competitively then i think it is a mistake to try and spec for 1v1 as a necro. The strength of necro in pvp and wvw has always been its team fight capability. And the best way you can make plays as a necro is in those team fights.

Necro is too slow to be a 1v1 class in pvp. You will get decapped alot and you will not be able to push far to take 1v1s because any class that does this needs to be able to disengage when its 1v2. It is similar in wvw. In a cage fight 1v1 obviously necro is f7ne. But duels never happen in real games. You need to always be aware your duel could turn into a 1v2, as such any necro pushing far in pvp to take a 1v1 duel is never going to win many games

as such, if playing necro i would play it where it flourishes and that has always been in team fighting

FrostDraco.8306:

flow.6043:

I think you don’t understand Blood Magic.
Vamp traits are currently by far our best sustain option. And that’s just one part of BM, there’s more to it than just Transfusion, you know.

I kind of disagree here. I run a hyper sustain build that doesn’t use bloodmagic at all. It uses BB, and other sustain tools from spite/soul reaping, to give me massive amounts of life force, which means i can pop in and out of shroud consistently when there are 2 or more enemies (i run shouts as well).

It gives me a lot of team fight presence, and most games (unranked), i never die. Not once.

I phrased my post poorly.

In regards to hitpoints gained, life force regeneration will always be more effective than regular healing. Which is one of the reasons I would never say you couldn’t run tanky builds without Blood Magic.

What I was refering to, however, is a direct comparison of our healing traits.
And this is where Vamp traits are clearly the most potent, because they don’t have an icd (BB) or only tick periodically (US) and they work through Shroud (unlike all others).

flow.6043:

FrostDraco.8306:

flow.6043:

I think you don’t understand Blood Magic.
Vamp traits are currently by far our best sustain option. And that’s just one part of BM, there’s more to it than just Transfusion, you know.

I kind of disagree here. I run a hyper sustain build that doesn’t use bloodmagic at all. It uses BB, and other sustain tools from spite/soul reaping, to give me massive amounts of life force, which means i can pop in and out of shroud consistently when there are 2 or more enemies (i run shouts as well).

It gives me a lot of team fight presence, and most games (unranked), i never die. Not once.

I phrased my post poorly.

In regards to hitpoints gained, life force regeneration will always be more effective than regular healing. Which is one of the reasons I would never say you couldn’t run tanky builds without Blood Magic.

What I was refering to, however, is a direct comparison of our healing traits.
And this is where Vamp traits are clearly the most potent, because they don’t have an icd (BB) or only tick periodically (US) and they work through Shroud (unlike all others).

Since when does Blighters boon have an icd? I know that some of our might generating traits have an icd but i am sure blighters boon doesnt have one.

Rickster.8752:

If your aim is to win competitively then i think it is a mistake to try and spec for 1v1 as a necro.

My point was that there is no difference.

Can you name an example of what would qualify as build/skill/trait that is only useful in 1v1s but not in team fights?

Rickster.8752:

But duels never happen in real games.

Wrong. They happen all the time.

Rickster.8752:

Necro is too slow to be a 1v1 class in pvp. You will get decapped alot and you will not be able to push far to take 1v1s because any class that does this needs to be able to disengage when its 1v2.
…
You need to always be aware your duel could turn into a 1v2, as such any necro pushing far in pvp to take a 1v1 duel is never going to win many games

First of all, you make it sound like the only place where 1v1s could ever happen is on your respective team’s far point. Obviously that’s wrong, duels can happen anywhere.

Secondly, taking 1v1s isn’t a matter of mobility.
Just keep an eye on the map, there will be lots of opportunities to safely rotate to whatever point you want.
And yes, there is always the chance of you getting outnumbered, but in this case either your team outnumbers the other team on the other points, or you rely on your team mates to have some map awareness as well and that they would reinforce you if necessary.
Like I said, not being a liability to your team isn’t entirely your own responsibility.

Rickster.8752:

as such, if playing necro i would play it where it flourishes and that has always been in team fighting

Well… ironically you could (and many people do) also argue that this is where necros are the weakest because of how fast they can die to being focused.

Muchacho.2390:

Since when does Blighters boon have an icd? I know that some of our might generating traits have an icd but i am sure blighters boon doesnt have one.

Oops, my mistake, I thought of something else. Well, more like other traits or skills that grant boons to you have a cooldown.

flow.6043:

In regards to hitpoints gained, life force regeneration will always be more effective than regular healing.

Thats debatable. LF depletes naturally while in shroud, natural health pool doesn’t. Lets not forget that most the professions who have loads of built in healing dont even have to rely on statting in healing power since the base values of the heals are naturally high.

As the state of the game is right now I would disagree.

Sarrs.4831:

One place I would differ with Drarnor would be to think about running Magi’s or possibly a Magi’s/Zealot’s mix (Mender’s, basically). A bigger life force pool means your % gains from Ghastly Claws and Blighter’s Boon provide that much more life force, and therefore that much more raw HP from the Unholy Sanc conversion and DS1 spam .

You need the damage. If you need more health, go Celestial amulet/infusions.

TheDevice.2751:

flow.6043:

In regards to hitpoints gained, life force regeneration will always be more effective than regular healing.

Thats debatable. LF depletes naturally while in shroud, natural health pool doesn’t. Lets not forget that most the professions who have loads of built in healing dont even have to rely on statting in healing power since the base values of the heals are naturally high.

As the state of the game is right now I would disagree.

So you don’t have access to your life force all the time, and (depending on how much damage you take) you don’t have access to all of it when you do.
And I’m not sure why you would mention the high healing capabilities of other classes here? But both of those points actually support my argument more than yours.

Think back to a time before Reaper and before the specialization system was introduced. Back then all we had was a 5-7k heal every 25 seconds (+1.5 hours cast time) and maybe some regeneration ticks. So that usually represented somewhere between 25-30% of our actual health pool, or in other words: if we were low on hp in combat we needed more than a minute to refill completely.
Bascially, this impossible sustain task forced you to not only have good and reliable life force regen between Shroud cycles, but you also needed awesome Shroud timing so as much damage as possible would be mitigated by life force.
And even though we now have more access to traited healing, that type of life force and Shroud management is still how you should play your necro today. And it’s a lot easier too with the addition of traits like Soul Marks and Blighter’s Boon.

Also, some actual numbers:
For example, Necrotic Grasp generates 4% life force per hit or 4.4% with Gluttony, which means a single auto attack skill can generate up to 22% life force per cast or top off your entire life force pool in a coupe of seconds.
This is our strongest source of life force, of course, but there are other ways to completley fill up our lf pool between Shroud cycles.

So when you say it’s debatable that lf regen is more effective than healing, because we don’t have access to all life force all the time, you’re basically implying that our regular healing generates about as much hit points as lf regen does without having the disadvantge of draining naturally.
Well… not even close.

flow.6043

Back then all we had was a 5-7k heal every 25 seconds (+1.5 hours cast time)…

Oh the good old days. Cast times were so realistic back then.

Ye guys, keep playing (and being farmed) for long enough and you will magically improve and win!!!

In other news: Jam tomorrow!

Okami.7049:

I’ve always known Necros have a high skill ceiling, I mean that’s probably cuz all I play in MMOs is Necros (or Sorcerer, whichever class they offer that’s closest). My IG name is my nickname irl simply because family and friends know I’m the Necromancer lol

Skill ceiling aside, Necros also isn’t too difficult to pick up. It takes some adjusting, learning that you’re meant to tough it out for the entire fight rather than kill your opponent in one hit, but it’s not too complicated to grab some lifesteal, beef up your offenses and go to town. That being said, it takes skill to actually sit down and perfect/master the Necromancer class (just like every other class) because you have 2 health bars to manage, you gotta know your Utilities, Traits, Combos, and Lifeforce management. Most amateur Necros will use Shroud as an emergency clutch or as their primary burst ‘weapon’ when in reality Shroud is meant to be woven in with your weapon rotations. Sitting in Shroud and trying to just land autos for Might/Vulnerability stacks is the perfect way to deplete your LF and essentially kill yourself. Whenever you swap into Shroud (speaking Reaper here) you want to pop (and shatter) your 3, pop your 5, dash in with your 1 (Frozen Aura) and spin to win with your 4 (Freezing Bolts). After that EXIT SHROUD and return to your rotations, don’t sit there with your autos using it as a shield until it’s bone dry.

Just my take on the matter though, everyone plays their own way and as such my opinion remains as nothing more than my opinion. I’m no pro, I’m still an amateur as well, I’m just agreeing with the OP.

sooo complicated, much skill ceiling, woooow

flow.6043:

Control? As opposed to which other spec?

Spite has boonstrip and chill.
Curses has access to boonstrip and weakness.

flow.6043:

I think you don’t understand Blood Magic.
Vamp traits are currently by far our best sustain option. And that’s just one part of BM, there’s more to it than just Transfusion, you know.

I know that Vamp traits give you the best sustain. It is a strong line, but it is not necessarily what you want for a necromancer. You are fundamentally dependent on applying outgoing pressure and Blood Magic does not do that, the raw sustain you gain does not outweigh the cost unless you are relying on Transfusion/Vamp Aura to apply key support to allies while also sustaining yourself.

flow.6043:

That’s not true. US and Blighter’s in Shroud heal for a static amount of hp, the size of your lf pool has no influence on that.

You don’t understand.

US will heal you for longer because people are attacking you in DS. Your degen will not change, you will still be able to camp DS for 25 seconds, but your raw Life Force pool will increase, decreasing the proportions by which enemies can reduce your ability to camp DS.

Blighter’s Boon heals for a static amount of HP, but I’m talking about DS HP, not HP. You will gain more Death Shroud- as a raw health amount- and because you are therefore able to camp Death Shroud longer, you will be able to spam your DS skills for longer, and therefore generate more healing through Spite’s granted Might.

Sarrs.4831:

flow.6043:

Control? As opposed to which other spec?

Spite has boonstrip and chill.
Curses has access to boonstrip and weakness.

That’s a rather out-of-context definition though.
With that logic I could also argue that Blood Magic gives more “control” if you’re using Banshee’s Wail to improve Wail of Doom, or Vampiric Rituals to lower the cooldown of Well of Corruption, or have Blood Bond corrupt boons because you’ve picked Signets of Suffering as well.

I get where you’re going with this, but based on that argumentation it’s wrong to say that Blood Magic is nothing but a dps and healing buff.

Sarrs.4831:

flow.6043:

That’s not true. US and Blighter’s in Shroud heal for a static amount of hp, the size of your lf pool has no influence on that.

US will heal you for longer because people are attacking you in DS.
… decreasing the proportions by which enemies can reduce your ability to camp DS.

… because you are .. able to camp Death Shroud longer, you will be able to spam your DS skills for longer, and therefore generate more healing through Spite’s granted Might.

Ok, I get it now. You’re saying: by adding defensive stats to your build you can cast Shroud #1 more often while being attacked in Shroud, so you can get some extra healing with Blighter’s Boon and Reaper’s Might.

Well, what if I told you that – regardless of what build you have – camping Shroud and spamming #1 is probably the least effective thing you could do as a necro, for both offense and defense. So making some comparison between specializations based on that is totally pointless.

flow.6043:

That’s a rather out-of-context definition though.
With that logic I could also argue that Blood Magic gives more “control” if you’re using Banshee’s Wail to improve Wail of Doom, or Vampiric Rituals to lower the cooldown of Well of Corruption, or have Blood Bond corrupt boons because you’ve picked Signets of Suffering as well.

But you don’t run Banshee’s Wail. You do run boonstrip and boonflip effects in Spite, Chill of Death being the only worthwhile Master pick.
But you don’t run Vamp Rituals. If you aren’t running Transfusion, you’re missing the strongest support skill Necros have and honestly the point of running Blood (unless you’re MM(in which case Transfusion is your best trait there by far anyway)).
And you don’t run Spite+Blood with this build, because the build needs Death Magic or it fundamentally doesn’t work.

flow.6043:

I get where you’re going with this, but based on that argumentation it’s wrong to say that Blood Magic is nothing but a dps and healing buff.

That is a thing I did not say. I simply said it does not provide the utility that you need to be effective, with Necro’s current role.

flow.6043:

Well, what if I told you that – regardless of what build you have – camping Shroud and spamming #1 is probably the least effective thing you could do as a necro, for both offense and defense. So making some comparison between specializations based on that is totally pointless.

Camping Shroud and spamming #1 while playing an Unholy Sanctuary build might be ‘the least effective thing you could do’ but it may be your only option.

If your health is low and your LF is high and US is on CD, you need to camp DS and heal up. If you are camping and healing up and everything’s already on CD, the only thing there is to do is AA.

And vitality is far from a bad stat, it’s recommended on its own simply for the sake of already giving you double the HP it gives everyone else. Am I saying it’ll turn you into an unstoppable monster, no, but it’s marginal with other defense stats for regular necros and it helps you a lot for a US build.

I chuckled when I read this. As a thief, whenever I encounter newer players playing necro it takes me ages to kill him because they’re such damage sponses. When I see a Necro I sigh a little because I know whatever their skill, it’s probably not even worth killing them, cause it even with insane thief dps it takes so frigging long, whereas I make one mistake and I’m dead. How this is considered high skill floor is beyond me. Dying on a necro the hardest part of playing it.

Sarrs.4831:

But you don’t run Banshee’s Wail.
…
But you don’t run Vamp Rituals.

I use both.

Sarrs.4831:

And you don’t run Spite+Blood with this build, because the build needs Death Magic or it fundamentally doesn’t work.

What build are you talking about?
I was making a general statement about Blood Magic based on your definition of how a specialization can provide control. No one said anything about a specific build.

Sarrs.4831:

flow.6043:

it’s wrong to say that Blood Magic is nothing but a dps and healing buff.

That is a thing I did not say. I simply said it does not provide the utility that you need to be effective, with Necro’s current role.

Sarrs.4831:

BM is subpar because it has no output.
… It is good for transfusion and raw damage

Do you not read your own posts? It’s exactly what you said.

Also, again, you’re wrong about Blood Magic.

Sarrs.4831:

flow.6043:

Well, what if I told you that – regardless of what build you have – camping Shroud and spamming #1 is probably the least effective thing you could do as a necro, for both offense and defense. So making some comparison between specializations based on that is totally pointless.

Camping Shroud and spamming #1 while playing an Unholy Sanctuary build might be ‘the least effective thing you could do’ but it may be your only option.

If your health is low and your LF is high and US is on CD, you need to camp DS and heal up. If you are camping and healing up and everything’s already on CD, the only thing there is to do is AA.

So you don’t like Blood Magic because you think it lacks utility, but your best argument for Death Magic/Unholy Sanctuary is: it’s better than nothing when when you’re forced to stay in Shroud with everything else on cooldown.

Also, in this fictional scenario where you’re low on hp and apparently some people are fighting you, thus making you stay in Shroud, how many Blighter’s Boon procs and US tics can you really get out of this?
If you’re really pressured enough to the point where you can’t leave Shroud, you’re probably taking a significant amount of damage and/or being stunned several times. So maybe you can auto attack a couple of times and heal, what… 1k or 2k hp? And that’s only when you’re facing semi-afk opponents.
Not impressed.

Sarrs.4831:

And vitality is far from a bad stat, it’s recommended on its own simply for the sake of already giving you double the HP it gives everyone else. Am I saying it’ll turn you into an unstoppable monster, no, but it’s marginal with other defense stats for regular necros and it helps you a lot for a US build.

I never said vitality is bad. But again, the size of your lf pool doesn’t affect US at all.
So, yes, vitality helps. Is it more helpful for builds using US than others? No.

Crackers.9628:

I chuckled when I read this. As a thief, whenever I encounter newer players playing necro it takes me ages to kill him because they’re such damage sponses. When I see a Necro I sigh a little because I know whatever their skill, it’s probably not even worth killing them, cause it even with insane thief dps it takes so frigging long, whereas I make one mistake and I’m dead. How this is considered high skill floor is beyond me. Dying on a necro the hardest part of playing it.

Spoken like someone who’s never played necro before.

Also, if it takes you ages to kill new players your real problem isn’t with the class.

See I really like this, I have been playing necromancer since beta. I make necro builds and people like to say negative things sometimes (I have plenty of requests to make more) because it isn’t “meta”, it’s unusual, or they can’t steam roll people with it. I am one that knows how to play necros with a fairly decent efficiency.

Some builds may look stupid to others, but if you know how to play it, use it’s advantages, and try to avoid the situations that bring out the weaknesses, then you WILL be good at it. The hard part is learning a build and finding those advantages/disadvantages.

flow.6043:

I use both.

Well trait’s bad.
Banshee’s Wail isn’t horrible but is horribly outclassed by Vamp Aura in most circumstances, even in sPvP where it’s at its least powerful.
Fair enough if you’re playing fun/dorky builds but it’s not really fit for purpose.

flow.6043:

What build are you talking about?
I was making a general statement about Blood Magic based on your definition of how a specialization can provide control. No one said anything about a specific build.

US/BB.

flow.6043:

Do you not read your own posts? It’s exactly what you said.

Also, again, you’re wrong about Blood Magic.

Do you not read my post? Transfusion is not exclusively there for healing. More than half of its value is moving bodies away from stomps, wasting enemy time. It’s a utility trait far more than it is a healing trait, seeing as it does a relatively minor amount of healing.

I’m not even saying BM is bad. It’s a very good traitline. But it doesn’t fit into US/BB as well as Spite does.

flow.6043:

So you don’t like Blood Magic because you think it lacks utility, but your best argument for Death Magic/Unholy Sanctuary is: it’s better than nothing when when you’re forced to stay in Shroud with everything else on cooldown.

No, I like Blood Magic. It’s a good traitline (for throughput, at least, I think its design is mediocre but is still carried by high-powered traits).

flow.6043:

Also, in this fictional scenario where you’re low on hp and apparently some people are fighting you, thus making you stay in Shroud, how many Blighter’s Boon procs and US tics can you really get out of this?

US ticks? I dunno. 10?
Blighter’s Boon ticks, I’d say about 20-40 in that time, from full LF. Sigil of Strength, Infusing Terror, AA swings with Spite Might generation. If the target is under the threshold, more. Spiteful Spirit will generate up to 5 ticks of BB for roughly 800 HP with no healing power. Spiteful Spirit will feed you more BB the more often you enter DS, constantly flipping DS just for the SS and BtV is pretty helpful.

flow.6043:

If you’re really pressured enough to the point where you can’t leave Shroud, you’re probably taking a significant amount of damage and/or being stunned several times. So maybe you can auto attack a couple of times and heal, what… 1k or 2k hp? And that’s only when you’re facing semi-afk opponents.
Not impressed.

You’ll pull 1k HP just from a good Spiteful Spirit hit lol

flow.6043:

Spoken like someone who’s never played necro before.

Also, if it takes you ages to kill new players your real problem isn’t with the class.

Killing new players takes a couple seconds with other classes (bar invuln skills) but with necro it still takes a long time.

Also, you can’t tell me a class that has 4 AoE’s in 1 weapon is hard in PvP where everyone is in one spot.

Crackers.9628:

Also, you can’t tell me a class that has 4 AoE’s in 1 weapon is hard in PvP where everyone is in one spot.

You do realize that those 4 AoE’s deal pathetic damage, right? And only one of them has a short cooldown?

Also, Flow, while I agree that Blighter’s Boon does give you superior sustain over Unholy Sanctuary, Unholy Sanctuary also lets you run Shrouded Removal, which is a very strong trait. That’s a large part of why I like US so much.

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Also, Flow, while I agree that Blighter’s Boon does give you superior sustain over Unholy Sanctuary, Unholy Sanctuary also lets you run Shrouded Removal, which is a very strong trait. That’s a large part of why I like US so much.

Yes shrouded removel is really strong but i dont think US is that good. I still think the base healing should be a bit higher (around 200).

That plus a soul comprehnsion rework and deathmagic would finally be good.

Muchacho.2390:

Drarnor Kunoram.5180:

Also, Flow, while I agree that Blighter’s Boon does give you superior sustain over Unholy Sanctuary, Unholy Sanctuary also lets you run Shrouded Removal, which is a very strong trait. That’s a large part of why I like US so much.

Yes shrouded removel is really strong but i dont think US is that good. I still think the base healing should be a bit higher (around 200).

That plus a soul comprehnsion rework and deathmagic would finally be good.

Shrouded Removal is by far the strongest trait in Death Magic.
US is too weak, and so is every other non-minion trait in DM.
DM could only ever be a reasonable pick over other specializations if they buffed Deadly Strength, Corruptor’s Fervor, Unholy Sanctuary and completely removed and replaced Putrid Defense, Soul Comprehension and Reaper’s Protection.

As it stands, without minions Death Magic can only give you some mediocre stat buffs and a cleanse.

Crackers.9628:

flow.6043:

Spoken like someone who’s never played necro before.

Also, if it takes you ages to kill new players your real problem isn’t with the class.

Killing new players takes a couple seconds with other classes (bar invuln skills) but with necro it still takes a long time.

Also, you can’t tell me a class that has 4 AoE’s in 1 weapon is hard in PvP where everyone is in one spot.

Lol. You think a class’ strength in PvP is determined by how many aoe skills there are on a weapon set?

At first I thought you just haven’t played necro, but now I’m thinking you might not have even played this entire game at all.