Guild Wars 2

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This is the crux of all these long discussions and disrespectful behavior on both sides.

AngryBear.8741:

But you’re saying Necros and Rangers are good now, but they are still being underrated and kicked from parties because of this general idea that was established in ppl’s minds.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

No, as I said, they’re kicked because most rangers and necs don’t know their class + don’t bring a thing for the party […]
Also, being good/useful doesn’t mean optimal, that’s important too.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Besides, Necros/Reapers are godkitten Vuln-trains now and Vampiric Support is pretty amazing in fractals; Rangers always had Spotter and Frost Spirit, on top of that Condi Rangers are pretty good right now from what I’ve heard, being the second best condi class behind the unbeatable engi?

Thinking that certain classes are inherently way better than others even if played badly is a common side-effect of what nemesis called “the berserker meta” (even though that’s quite a silly name). Even though ppl claim that you can circumvent all these problems it is still depressing to be excluded or trash-talked in pug groups or asked to change your class by your guildies. I could play the worst guardian ever, barely doing anything but the occasional aegis and my former guild would not have batted an eye, but god forbid I tried my DS build. That’s how I became a WvWer.

These are the ppl we talk about, those that look at a 3 minute video and deduct that certain classes are inherently much better than others.
THIS is what nemesis tried to explain in his videos (even though he chose to slander players in the middle):

1. The Necromancer wasn’t buffed because damage-wise he was in line with other classes.

2. Nemesis claims that optimal setups vary, power isn’t always > condition and was mostly carried by the Ice Bow.

3. DPS numbers of new builds have been inflated to create shock value.

Now it is OUR turn to verify or falsify this claim. Whatever you think about the content of the videos, at least they should have taught you to do your own research.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Besides, information is there to be shared, yes. However, people should be wary of what information they consume and expand their knowledge based on said information, verifying it on their own and checking what it exactly says. If someone says “Necromancer has no place in an optimal group setup”, then that doesn’t mean Necromancer is bad, just that it doesn’t offer the best way to get something done. If people interpret it as “Necromancer is bad” then that’s the fault of the people and, quite frankly, the lack of their brain/their willingness to use it, not the fault of the person who gave out the information. That’s given the information is true, of course. This applies to virtually anything anyway.

I agree with this, however, I still don’t see who put those information out there and based on what. I never saw any tests that prove this. All I saw were claims that things work certain way and don’t work certain other way upvoted on certain site by who knows who which made it “meta”. “Necro brings nothing to the group” is confirmed how exactly? Because it can’t share might (which by the way it can)? Necro has high dps, high survivability, it can keep vulnerability up (it is a group thing in which necro contributes by a lot)…There are many factors to be taken into account when talking about who brings what to the table, not just party buffs.

Here we have 2 groups which actually put effort into proving things. However, they obviously can’t seem to agree which calculations are correct and which are false. So, there is my suggestion to show it once and for all.

I don’t agree with Nemesis when he says that you have to account 10 people factor as variable. While that it is true, using that as excuse to not even try (I am not saying he doesn’t want to try it) is same as saying that you can’t establish which sport team is better because they have different players. I think it’s quite the wrong view.

I am not trying to go against PvE community, but PvE, even at highest level, is predictable. No matter how hard you make certain content and mechanics, it is fact that those mechanics won’t change from one encounter to another. That makes it possible to learn mechanics and adapt (unlike in PvP/WvW environment). So, if you have a group of 5 people that play certain PvE content a lot, and I don’t think anyone would disagree that Nike and Nemesis are good players (you can disagree on their views and ideas, but not whether they can play the game or not), then those variables aren’t exactly variables. It is content you have done hundreds if not thousands times before and it’s gonna be the same the next time also.

And this discussion goes on and on while there is one and final way to end it.

He has part 2 and 3 up on his channel. I watched them. There is two points that everyone should take from those videos:

1. You can’t just make a model of something (DPS in this case) without verifying it’s validity where it’s actually used (not golems). Nemesis approach to MEASURING DPS is very reasonable. In fact, I don’t see how else it could be done. I haven’t seen any theorycrafters measure DPS to confirm their calculations.
2. You can’t promote a build as absolute best when we know there are limitations for these meta; for example, I’m always laughing internally when someone tells me the meta is the best for openworld content.

These two missing elements is something I’ve always struggled with when people promote meta. It would be unacceptable in professional scientific community to do this. The biggest disaapointment is that when challenged, it’s simply dismissed. If the way people calculating meta currently was so rigourous and robust, they shouldn’t have a problem refuting the information being delivered by Nemesis. I don’t see that happening.

From a scientific POV, the meta calculation people have it backwards. They should be trying to model measured DPS from various rotations and using their model to predict, then verify other builds to show the correlation. As they improve their model, the correlation will increase. They haven’t done enough to demonstrate their model is correct but people eat that stuff up because they see some math. Unfortunately, just using math doesn’t legitimize the model.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Nemesis.8593:

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

AngryBear.8741:

I respectfully disagree because if you kick Necro right after he joins a party or write in LFG tool “no necros” then you are not doing it because he doesn’t know how to play their class. You are doing it based on pure prejudice. Or maybe you want to tell me that number of necros that can’t play their class is somehow significantly larger than number of eles that can’t play their class, if taking a necro is a risk, but taking an ele isn’t? I have never heard of the case of ele being kicked from the party just because being an ele.

Please, read my posts again.
The important factor here is that Necros and Rangers barely bring things to their group when played badly/with the wrong setups. Thus many people don’t risk it and just kick on sight because there’s a high chance he’s kitten and not bringing anything to your party. A bad ele still often rolls staff so that you have decent dps + fire fields to utilize, there’s still a high chance they have ice bow and at least spawn an earth elemental now or then. So even though they’re kitten, they at least bring something you can properly utilize.

… see what i mean AngryBear ? Icebow did nothing to targets with a small hitbox without the linecasting exploit (which doesn’t work anymore btw) even before it was nerfed in half, and elementalist staff auto-attack DPS is laughable, yet people still cling to it.

See… what 2 years of misleading information has done to the community.

My friend… i can explain it to you, but i can’t understand it for you.

Take your favorite elementalist build, and test out your REAL DPS in a fight of your choosing, you don’t have to tell me what it is… because i already know it… i know all the values, all the real HP values and so on…

Do it… and after that if you still wish to argue with me, i will agree to everything you say.

Oh… oh wow. lol

Nice to blow things out of context. You should’ve been aware that I was talking about the past here, because back then ice bow was a major reason to take an ele, even before linecasting (which I wasn’t even around for and I think that’s silly anyway)
Yes, you hardly use ice bow now, especially not against small target because as you noticed, there’s barely a reason if you don’t need Deep Freeze.
Also, fire staff AA is laughable? Properly traited you also have a 100% uptime on lava font, which additionally increases your DPS + you have meteor shower, which, again does more DPS against large hitboxes and hordes of trash but is still good. On top of that, there’s all the utility staff offers (no, it isn’t all about dps, who would’ve thought) and for the times where staff really doesn’t cut it, there’s still setups like D/F.
I don’t even play Ele much because I can’t keep up with the proper rotations and I know that lol

Besides, information is there to be shared, yes. However, people should be wary of what information they consume and expand their knowledge based on said information, verifying it on their own and checking what it exactly says. If someone says “Necromancer has no place in an optimal group setup”, then that doesn’t mean Necromancer is bad, just that it doesn’t offer the best way to get something done. If people interpret it as “Necromancer is bad” then that’s the fault of the people and, quite frankly, the lack of their brain/their willingness to use it, not the fault of the person who gave out the information. That’s given the information is true, of course. This applies to virtually anything anyway.

Very sensible post, especially the last paragraph. If only more people would think for themselves…

To elaborate on your ele-necro comparison. Necro brings little buff/debuff to the party except vuln stacks which are thrown around like candy. However, I think it doesn’t matter, because many team compositions can easily achieve sustainable max buff and debuff caps, especially since HoT. In a practical scenario (now), necro will probably have higher dps uptime than ele, and I’m pretty sure we can assume that class dps is balanced around that.

For all practical purposes, there is no compelling reason to exclude classes, you just need to complement each others assets.

Okay, lets work this down.

Thinking that certain classes are inherently way better than others even if played badly is a common side-effect of what nemesis called “the berserker meta” (even though that’s quite a silly name). Even though ppl claim that you can circumvent all these problems it is still depressing to be excluded or trash-talked in pug groups or asked to change your class by your guildies. I could play the worst guardian ever, barely doing anything but the occasional aegis and my former guild would not have batted an eye, but god forbid I tried my DS build. That’s how I became a WvWer.

It’s not. Is this your first game ever? There’s always approaches that work better than others. There’s always skills that work better than others. People tend to take the path of least resistance and this includes taking a setup that works as well as possible, which varies per situation. (Though ironically, lots of people don’t adapt, so they’re to blame for thinking narrowly.) If those were your guildies, they were pretty dumb to be quite honest. Even in hardcore PvE guilds no one gives a kitten if you run Necro in casual runs, as long as you know your class. Besides, Berserker Meta isn’t the result of people advertising it, Berserker Meta is the result of the game being an action based MMO with a focus on active defense and damage avoiding.

These are the ppl we talk about, those that look at a 3 minute video and deduct that certain classes are inherently much better than others.
THIS is what nemesis tried to explain in his videos (even though he chose to slander players in the middle):

1. The Necromancer wasn’t buffed because damage-wise he was in line with other classes.

2. Nemesis claims that optimal setups vary, power isn’t always > condition and was mostly carried by the Ice Bow.

3. DPS numbers of new builds have been inflated to create shock value.

Now it is OUR turn to verify or falsify this claim. Whatever you think about the content of the videos, at least they should have taught you to do your own research.

Those are the people without a brain, again, not the fault of the makers of the video but the fault of people who can’t think for themselves.

Necromancer isn’t horrible DPS, no, but it was on the lower half before Reaper iirc, how it’s looking now I don’t know so I refrain from judging that. Necromancer’s main issue never was his DPS, though, because that could’ve been overlooked easily.

Sure, there is a point where the duration of a fight, it’s mechanics and the toughness make condition builds more viable; however you have to think of ramp-up time for the condition damage and the fact that until some time ago, conditions were capped at 25 and certain others stacked in duration instead of intensity. Back when dungeons were the main thing, everything died so fast conditions were not worth it (and solo mainly against targets with high armor such as the Abo in Arah p2), the condition cap completely killed it for groups.

3. That’s quite the claim, I can’t say anything to that but you’re not backing it up either so idk.

I agree with this, however, I still don’t see who put those information out there and based on what. I never saw any tests that prove this. All I saw were claims that things work certain way and don’t work certain other way upvoted on certain site by who knows who which made it “meta”. “Necro brings nothing to the group” is confirmed how exactly? Because it can’t share might (which by the way it can)? Necro has high dps, high survivability, it can keep vulnerability up (it is a group thing in which necro contributes by a lot)…There are many factors to be taken into account when talking about who brings what to the table, not just party buffs.

I barely watch any videos on builds because I’m capable on picking traits on my own, but from what I know DnT generally backs up everything in their build-guides with video proof and spreadsheets.
Also, “Necro brings nothing to the group” doesn’t equal “Necro brings nothing to the group another class can’t do better” – It’s getting much better now, especially with Reaper and the trait reworks, but before that you really didn’t have too much to work with. There were skills good in certain situations (more often in fractals than dungeons) but you often had to sacrifice something else for it. Reflects/projectile block? Nah, we didn’t have that. Blinds? Sure, we had one field on a 50s cooldown, meanwhile Thief can just spam the everloving kitten out of them. Blast Finishers? One you can’t utilize out of combat, the other being somewhat annoying to use and blocks an utility if you use both; can be used it combat, but again, you sacrifice something more useful. Well of Power? Eh, simple cleanse was often good enough, though there were (and still are) situations were it’s great, volcanic fractal for example. Any good combo fields? Nah, we don’t have that. Vulnerability? Yeah that’s something we weren’t bad at. List goes on and on. Another class could’ve always done it better.

Here we have 2 groups which actually put effort into proving things. However, they obviously can’t seem to agree which calculations are correct and which are false. So, there is my suggestion to show it once and for all.

I don’t agree with Nemesis when he says that you have to account 10 people factor as variable. While that it is true, using that as excuse to not even try (I am not saying he doesn’t want to try it) is same as saying that you can’t establish which sport team is better because they have different players. I think it’s quite the wrong view.

The joke being here that you need five people at best, since those five people can run the same content with different builds/classes, as long as they’re both used to both the classes they’re using.

I am not trying to go against PvE community, but PvE, even at highest level, is predictable. No matter how hard you make certain content and mechanics, it is fact that those mechanics won’t change from one encounter to another. That makes it possible to learn mechanics and adapt (unlike in PvP/WvW environment). So, if you have a group of 5 people that play certain PvE content a lot, and I don’t think anyone would disagree that Nike and Nemesis are good players (you can disagree on their views and ideas, but not whether they can play the game or not), then those variables aren’t exactly variables. It is content you have done hundreds if not thousands times before and it’s gonna be the same the next time also.

And this discussion goes on and on while there is one and final way to end it.

Sure, PvE is about learning encounters. This however also makes it about optimizing them and trying to hit the best possible times, if you’re into that. It’s a different form of challenge compared to PvP and WvW.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Sure, PvE is about learning encounters. This however also makes it about optimizing them and trying to hit the best possible times, if you’re into that. It’s a different form of challenge compared to PvP and WvW.

But this is the issue. No one ever compared runs to establish 1 set up against the other. For example “Here is the video where with meta build I do this run in 2 minutes and the best time I got with non-meta build is 4 minutes, so there you go, meta build is twice as effective”. That is what I am asking instead of pointless spreadsheet wars that majority don’t even understand. I do understand what nemesis is saying, but I am not eager to just dismiss what other good players are saying and what community is been using for years. So I ask for clear proof. Nemesis has to prove that what considers to be non meta builds and classes can actually do the content equally efficiently, while Nike has to prove that meta is meta because it significantly shortens time needed to do that same content. Like I say, spreadsheet wars will go on forever, we will never know the truth and people will keep being discriminated because of it.

I feel a hostile vibe coming from your response Novaan, not sure tho why.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Is this your first game ever?

Thanks for asking, no it’s not.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

There’s always approaches that work better than others. There’s always skills that work better than others.

In my case that would be playing my necro instead of my guardian because I barely have played my guardian. And I won’t believe you if you said the inherent design choices of the guardian class would carry me over my mechanical shortcomings. Being forced to play it regardless is what I refer to as “depressing”.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

Those are the people without a brain, again, not the fault of the makers of the video but the fault of people who can’t think for themselves.

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

If those were your guildies, they were pretty dumb to be quite honest.

Isn’t this partly what it is all about? Getting ppl to think more for themselves?

NovaanVerdiano.6174:

3. That’s quite the claim, I can’t say anything to that but you’re not backing it up either so idk.

It is stated in nemesis’ video. Either that or I misunderstood his point.

I completely agree with your analysis on conditions and dungeons. I was just trying to summarize the main points of the videos.

Knowing that Damage, CC and Support are the trinity here, you don’t even need exact comparisons imo. In order to be fast, you have to kill things as fast as possible; this means keeping your HP above 90% if you have scholar runes, 25 vuln, 25 might, reflects if applicable, swiftness and stealth for skips etc.
rT did a run of Arah p3 with five MMs back then, you can still find the video on Badarka’s YT channel (iirc). Took a hour or so, partly thanks to Lupis life drain. He told me they were running builds crafted by Nemesis, but I’m not sure about that since it’s been over a year. Of course, this is by no means an accurate display since no one would ever run 5 MMs normally throughout a full dungeon lol, but it already kind of shows what to expect.
Same with builds; if you run DM/BM/Curses you’re not going to get the same amount of damage than when running Spite/SR/Reaper, it’s just bound to be slower.
The only point where a comparison is necessary is if you’re looking at multiple traits/lines/weapons which all have some sort of efficiency, but it isn’t clear what actually gives the dps boost.

Oh and on a more or less unrelated side note, in pugs there’s different things required than in organized groups, that’s something lots of people forget, or so I noticed.

But again and again, you just assume things. You have never seen how someone plays for example Death Magic trait line in service of damage. Just because you can’t figure it out it doesn’t mean someone else can’t also. That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

AngryBear.8741:

But again and again, you just assume things. You have never seen how someone plays for example Death Magic trait line in service of damage. Just because you can’t figure it out it doesn’t mean someone else can’t also. That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

I did see myself playing it, so I guess I’m able to judge. lol
Don’t get me wrong, for solo gameplay I actually advise running Spite/DM/Reaper or Soul Reaping, because it just works on its own. In groups you’re better off taking other things though as the self-sustaining capabilities aren’t as necessary anymore. Minions can be problematic in dungeons, you have completely different kill times and there’s suddenly other sources of boons and whatnot.

As for setting up videos and math for it, I’m by no means against it, it’s just that I’m incapable of doing so for various reasons so this is something I leave up to others which are capable. I’m quite sure there will be comparisons anyway, it’s just that this takes some time.

I meant why are you against fro them to do it since that is what I initially suggested.

AngryBear.8741:

I meant why are you against fro them to do it since that is what I initially suggested.

Did I really say that? I just said it’s not necessary to compare certain things because the result is obvious, but if the demand is there, sure, nothing wrong with that.
The only thing I said afaik was that five people would be enough to compare two different group comps, as long as all of those people are equally capable of playing both classes they’re going to use. This would mean that the party still knows each other, what to expect and they’re playing together fluently, instead of pitching two teams of (maybe different) level with different builds against each other.

AngryBear.8741:

That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

DnT and Co. provided video after video of record runs over the last years. So “their” side of the argument has their “proof”. Not their fault that no one competed with a necro-and-ranger only team.

And for now, well, the game got a huge update with new instabilitys, elite specs and so on. The meta needs some time to figure itself out, people can only make some educated guesses about whats to come. I doubt that much will change from the current state of the game, but your contest at this time would had no meaning.

Molch.2078:

AngryBear.8741:

That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

DnT and Co. provided video after video of record runs over the last years. So “their” side of the argument has their “proof”. Not their fault that no one competed with a necro-and-ranger only team.

And for now, well, the game got a huge update with new instabilitys, elite specs and so on. The meta needs some time to figure itself out, people can only make some educated guesses about whats to come. I doubt that much will change from the current state of the game, but your contest at this time would had no meaning.

Video after video with proof, you straight up lie without the slightest hesitation.

Link me a video in which Bloomhunger died in 20 seconds without timewarp and icebow… a single one. Otherwise all the “advertised DPS” is a lie. Absolutely all of it.

I’ll wait right here.

I don’t think you even understand what just happened, yet you come here and argue with me.

Uhm I am sorry Nemesis, but I was not talking to you. The fact that I quoted AngryBear should make that clear. But in case it is not, let me explain it to you:

He suggested that both sides of this stupid argument make videos to back up that their way is the most efficient. All I said was that one side did show videos of them playing with their prefered style and the other did not, not that they indeed have proof of 20k dps engineer or whatever.

Nemesis.8593:

Molch.2078:

AngryBear.8741:

That is why I said don’t theorize, show it, prove your claim in a simple and objective manner so that everyone understands. I don’t understand why you are against it. If you are right, such test will just confirm it and that would be it.

DnT and Co. provided video after video of record runs over the last years. So “their” side of the argument has their “proof”. Not their fault that no one competed with a necro-and-ranger only team.

And for now, well, the game got a huge update with new instabilitys, elite specs and so on. The meta needs some time to figure itself out, people can only make some educated guesses about whats to come. I doubt that much will change from the current state of the game, but your contest at this time would had no meaning.

Video after video with proof, you straight up lie without the slightest hesitation.

Link me a video in which Bloomhunger died in 20 seconds without timewarp and icebow… a single one. Otherwise all the “advertised DPS” is a lie. Absolutely all of it.

I’ll wait right here.

I don’t think you even understand what just happened, yet you come here and argue with me.

Nemesis they can’t understand. You see the same behavior when ANYONE with long held beliefs starts to be argued against and the arguments make sense. They shut down. They refuse to acknowledge any evidence against there claims as “real” then they push at anything they can making false comparisons to try to trip up there opponent without getting baited into an actual honest debate. I have seen the behavior before. Hell I grew up in a situation where every adult I talked to behaved exactly the same way when I asked questions they didn’t want to hear.

The most sure way to win against this kind of behavior. Is to educate the people around them (as you have been doing) and slowly erode there fanbase. The people themselves will never acknowledge they were wrong except on the most minor of points. But you can convince the people they attempt to train into believing them rendering them without anywhere to reach for. Thus isolating there influence.

EDIT : THIS IS NOT IN REFERENCE TO MOLCH I just suck at the reply feature and never bothered to learn how much of the first post to cut out in order to make it not look like kitten .

At first I was wondering why Nemesis’ vids are getting deleted from the forum all the time, then I saw the videos. There’s no content, just trash talking other people, in part 2 anyway. Edit: now I’ve seen part 3 as well, it’s just as bad as part 2.

Nemesis.8593:

Video after video with proof

You mean like the one part where you claim that the engi’ dps peaks at 9k, while you can clearly see on screen that his burning alone is exceeding 10k or even 11k for a short moment?
(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

And then you say stuff like: …in order to get even close to 20k dps (…) you’d have to start with 20k burns on top of 6k bleeds.
…what?

flow.6043:

(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

As you would with casting time or execution times with direct damage as well if you were calculating DPS properly …

Honestly, read what you said. You’re accusing him of including ramp up time for damage in an AVERAGE DPS MEASUREMENT!! Be careful if you’re going to argue pedantic points with people to try to knock holes in their arguments if what you say is not correct either.

flow.6043:

At first I was wondering why Nemesis’ vids are getting deleted from the forum all the time, then I saw the videos. There’s no content, just trash talking other people, in part 2 anyway. Edit: now I’ve seen part 3 as well, it’s just as bad as part 2.

Nemesis.8593:

Video after video with proof

You mean like the one part where you claim that the engi’ dps peaks at 9k, while you can clearly see on screen that his burning alone is exceeding 10k or even 11k for a short moment?
(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

And then you say stuff like: …in order to get even close to 20k dps (…) you’d have to start with 20k burns on top of 6k bleeds.
…what?

It’s either you are trolling me on purpose saying that i said things i never did, i don’t know what you hope to achieve since the video is right here and everyone can say i never said “peaks”.

Or… you literally have absolutely no idea how the game works. Like… none.

I don’t know which is worse.

Anyway, you can prove me wrong any time you wish… all you have to do is take your engineer build and go into a boss fight of your choosing, record it… add all the damage then divide by the duration and display your DPS. If you are right it should be 20.000…

Now… if you fail to do it, it means it doesn’t exist, and you guys have been misleading the GW2 community for 2 years… not actually sure if you already know that and you’re just trolling me, or you actually still believe you do more DPS with your condition engineer then an entire party does during the Flame Shaman encounter, while using 6 icebows… before icebow damage got nerfed in half.

This… is mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time…

Obtena.7952:

flow.6043:

(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

As you would with casting time or execution times with direct damage as well if you were calculating DPS properly …

Honestly, read what you said. You’re accusing him of including ramp up time for damage in an AVERAGE DPS MEASUREMENT!! Be careful if you’re going to argue pedantic points with people to try to knock holes in their arguments if what you say is not correct either.

You’ve misunderstood. I’m pointing out that he accuses other people of cherry picking or using “math-in-a-void” when he is doing exactly that. He thinks he’s seeing some bigger picture that others are too narrow mined to grasp, but all he does is apply a different frame of reference.
As for the 20k dps engi or other alleged fake dps values: obviously those don’t factor in ramp up or pre buffing times, no one was ever thinking that 20k dps means you do 20k dps from start to finish of a fight.
So when Nemesis thinks others are hypocrites for not extending their time frame to better represent the actual average values, it’s rather hypocritical of himself to exclude stuff like burst rotations against targets with lower hp. (=cherry picking)

Nemesis.8593:

you can prove me wrong … if you fail to do it, it means it doesn’t exist

Can’t argue with that flawless scientific method.
I really don’t get how you expect people to take you seriously if you behave like this.

flow.6043:

Obtena.7952:

flow.6043:

(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

As you would with casting time or execution times with direct damage as well if you were calculating DPS properly …

Honestly, read what you said. You’re accusing him of including ramp up time for damage in an AVERAGE DPS MEASUREMENT!! Be careful if you’re going to argue pedantic points with people to try to knock holes in their arguments if what you say is not correct either.

You’ve misunderstood. I’m pointing out that he accuses other people of cherry picking or using “math-in-a-void” when he is doing exactly that. He thinks he’s seeing some bigger picture that others are too narrow mined to grasp, but all he does is apply a different frame of reference.
As for the 20k dps engi or other alleged fake dps values: obviously those don’t factor in ramp up or pre buffing times, no one was ever thinking that 20k dps means you do 20k dps from start to finish of a fight.
So when Nemesis thinks others are hypocrites for not extending their time frame to better represent the actual average values, it’s rather hypocritical of himself to exclude stuff like burst rotations against targets with lower hp. (=cherry picking)

What did you just say…

I thought i heard you saying… you guys thought the community to kick necromancers and rangers because they can’t “peak” DPS as the rest ?…

Did you just say the math-in-a-void does not take into consideration ramp-up times for condition builds ? I didn’t even put this under the things that are wrong with your “assumptions” and so called “math”.

Well there you have it folks… math-in-a-void doesn’t include ramp-up times at all.

This is getting better and better as we go along… thank you.

No one is taught to kick necromancers, and almost no groups do. The only ones that kick Necromancers are either the extremely rare “4 war 1 mesmer 5k AP ping gear or kick”, which barely ever happen, or speed groups who are aiming for that top optimization that we just flat out don’t reach.

Can’t we all just get along? comon, join me around this campfire of sylvari bodies! We shall sing songs and have smores! And nachos!

flow.6043:

Obtena.7952:

flow.6043:

(I know, I know, in your “math” it’s lower because you’ve included the condi ramp up time for that average value. But guess what: you’re cherry picking your time frame.)

As you would with casting time or execution times with direct damage as well if you were calculating DPS properly …

Honestly, read what you said. You’re accusing him of including ramp up time for damage in an AVERAGE DPS MEASUREMENT!! Be careful if you’re going to argue pedantic points with people to try to knock holes in their arguments if what you say is not correct either.

You’ve misunderstood. I’m pointing out that he accuses other people of cherry picking or using “math-in-a-void” when he is doing exactly that. He thinks he’s seeing some bigger picture that others are too narrow mined to grasp, but all he does is apply a different frame of reference.
As for the 20k dps engi or other alleged fake dps values: obviously those don’t factor in ramp up or pre buffing times, no one was ever thinking that 20k dps means you do 20k dps from start to finish of a fight.
So when Nemesis thinks others are hypocrites for not extending their time frame to better represent the actual average values, it’s rather hypocritical of himself to exclude stuff like burst rotations against targets with lower hp. (=cherry picking)

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

flow.6043:

Nemesis.8593:

you can prove me wrong … if you fail to do it, it means it doesn’t exist

Can’t argue with that flawless scientific method.
I really don’t get how you expect people to take you seriously if you behave like this.

What he’s asking here should be a BASELINE expectation for people to justify their calculations in the first place. For example, if people are claiming Engi can do 20K DPS and that’s relevant in the actual game setting ‘doing stuff’, why SHOULDN’T we ask for a video showing it can happen? I mean, we got vids of people soloing dungeons and doing speed runs …. but the second we want to know if optimal DPS calculations (that are being used to treat people BADLY) be verified with a measurement of actual gameplay DPS, you think people were being asked to kill puppies.

What I find funny is that we are always TOLD that anyone can learn how to play to use rotations and meta gear because it’s so easy, yet the second anyone questions the validity of the zerker meta and how a player’s skill influences that play, it’s dismissed, even though it’s obviously a factor.

What I REALLY think … even the most pro players do not want to expose themselves on actually how far off their relevant, gameplay DPS numbers differ from the calculations because that would totally sink any argument meta-pushers would have to promote their ideas on how people should ‘correctly’ play the game, since it’s all based on those calculations.

Obtena.7952:

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared. Basically, if you want to be able to compare a wide variety of builds and their effectiveness, it is extremely helpful to do so with a quantitative base to work from, which requires a set of standardized conventions to base them on. For DPS, this happens to be a 30s repeatable DPS rotation. This isn’t something people magically came up with for GW2, all science and engineering disciplines, based on hard data, use conventions as well, even if they don’t exactly match real world, because they’re way more convenient and deemed close enough (like all of Newtonian physics which is known to be wrong, but such a good approximation due to all the simplifications it makes that it is more than sufficient for a ton of real world applications).

Further, Nemesis himself does the exact same thing he accuses “the establishment” (as though we have some PvE illuminati) of doing, which is cherrypicking numbers, situations, and results to match his statements, instead of the other way around and allowing data to inform results. The problem is the establishment has generally proven themselves right, or quickly adapted when wrong, because they have the personal investment of speed run records. If Nemesis wanted to prove all that empirical data wrong, he could do so by beating their records and maintaining his own, but he can’t.

Simply put, if Nemesis wanted to prove himself right, he could do so. He could set his own records (and then hold on to them for more than a few hours until someone had the spare time to reduce it by minutes), he could do so constructively, without the attitude of someone whose head is so far up their own posterior they’ve come to believe their own crap is the only thing there is. But he doesn’t, because inflating his own ego gets him more views and followers, and like any other cult they don’t realize how ridiculous they are until they step outside for once and detox the kool aid.

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

Further, Nemesis himself does the exact same thing he accuses “the establishment” (as though we have some PvE illuminati) of doing, which is cherrypicking numbers, situations, and results to match his statements, instead of the other way around. The problem is the establishment has generally proven themselves right, or quickly adapted when wrong, because they have the personal investment of speed run records. If Nemesis wanted to prove all that empirical data wrong, he could do so by beating their records and maintaining his own, but he can’t.

Simply put, if Nemesis wanted to prove himself right, he could do so. He could set his own records (and then hold on to them for more than a few hours until someone had the spare time to reduce it by minutes), he could do so constructively, without the attitude of someone whose head is so far up their own posterior they’ve come to believe their own crap is the only thing there is. But he doesn’t, because inflating his own ego gets him more views and followers, and like any other cult they don’t realize how ridiculous they are until they step outside for once and detox the kool aid.

I’m surprise you can still muster the courage to speak after you just recently said “i haven’t taken Nemesis serious since he claimed he does more DPS then a warrior”… when i baited all you elitists into insulting me so i have footage to show.

You still think you do more DPS with your warrior then i do with my necromancer, you don’t really understand how the game works… and now you’re even going back on what you guys claimed all this time.

You saw what Sesshi said a few times right ?… “It has been proved that necromancer is inferior”, “it has been proved that Nemesis builds are even more inferior”.

Well… everything you guys proved… was wrong.

The establishment never said their math doesn’t match reality, quite the opposite… they made a website on which they advertised a single possible composition making the entire community insta-kick everything else. No matter how much you guys try to sugar coat it now, you can’t take back what you guys have said over a period of two years… the majority knows you guys have discredited me, the majority knows you guys said 20K DPS… Why do you even try to deny it ?

I have also been wrongfully discredited over a period of two years… and you were one of the people who discredited me, as if you even have the game knowledge to do so. Every single build i posted in the last 2 years got flamed in the comment section by you elitists… now you’re playing the victims ? “Oh no… Nemesis is attacking us…”

You still have the nerve to continue talking… even after i provided 100% undeniable proof, that everything… you guys said… is false. slow clap
Or… are you saying that Narc is also casual in his world record Bloomberg kill ? Brazil is casual… Narc is casual ?… Painbow is casual ?… Who’s next ?…

You guys going to turn on each other now ?

“Cherry picked data”.
It was a world record… show me better footage… no really… i insist…

You can of course still prove me wrong, by recording your damage and showing us it matches the advertised damage, by all means… do that…

Bhawb.7408:

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

Why is this a problem? Because the calcs are being misused by people that don’t understand their restrictions/limitations as they just think it’s globally applicable. META is not the greatest build for all PVE situations; it never has been. Yet it’s promoted that way so unknowing people adopt meta because that’s the meta-pusher agenda.

Even though theorycrafters caveat their work with “might not match real game experience”, that doesn’t stop ignorant people from using those calculations (the sole reason to MAKE those calcs mind you) to justify poor behaviour with building teams, QQ on the forums about how bad a class is or give people misinformation about gameplay. The worst part is that the theorycrafters KNOW this is happening and don’t take care to ensure they make the limiting conditions of their calculations known. It’s pretty irresponsible IMO.

Obtena.7952:

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

It covers the scenarios it was meant for, being taken out of context isn’t anyone’s fault other than the morons who do it. There is nothing you’ll convince them otherwise, they’ll always stick to their unfounded views, so why bother changing what you are doing because of it.

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

It covers the scenarios it was meant for, being taken out of context isn’t anyone’s fault other than the morons who do it. There is nothing you’ll convince them otherwise, they’ll always stick to their unfounded views, so why bother changing what you are doing because of it.

Why bother? Oh probably has something to do with the three negative things that I outlined in my previous post, including the fact that some of the impetus for theorycrafting in the first place is to try to influence people to play a certain way. I get that’s not a concern to theorycrafters and I’m not suggesting they stop but I do think they don’t do enough to validate their theories.

From my own personal perspective, part of the satisfaction of doing a model is to see if it predicts what happens IRL. If there is no prediction, or that prediction is admittedly crap, then what is the motive to do it for DPS in GW2? Testing mad excel programming skills? If the calc is so far off or so limited in its application that it’s hardly relevant … well, time to step up the game boys.

Bhawb.7408:

No one is taught to kick necromancers, and almost no groups do. The only ones that kick Necromancers are either the extremely rare “4 war 1 mesmer 5k AP ping gear or kick”, which barely ever happen, or speed groups who are aiming for that top optimization that we just flat out don’t reach.

Oh come on Bhawb, yes the situation is getting better than it used to be, but the past year or so 9/10 times i had to start my own fractal 50 group….everyone wanted/wants ’’meta’’ or 2 eles, which means some classes (not just necro) are excluded. So we dont get kicked, but we dont get to join either. And as if all these groups aim for that top optimization…i played ele in fractals for some time so ive joined alot of ’’meta’’ parties and very rarely the group was good enough to run things smoothly.

Also when metabattle has the necro build so far down compared to the other builds…its natural people think necro is the kittentiest kitten when it isn’t, and toxicity spreads. Nemesis showcased in his video how people who created the meta flat out lied. I don’t think anyone can disagree to that right now…

One more thing for the people here saying nemesis is rude and insulting people: Ive been here a while and i can confirm that nemesis did not start offending anyone, in fact i was surprised of how long he didnt respond to all the trash talking he was getting. And for some other posters here, if you have no idea whats going on or you havent even watched the videos, how can you post, that is ignorant and trolling.

Nemesis.8593:

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

Nemesis is challenging the establishment to explain how their calculations match up with actual ingame experience. It’s not an unreasonable ask, especially since so many people rely on what they are being told to determine how they act ingame. What you are doing is focused on minutia and attempting to diminish the value of his work. Frankly, if people weren’t so scared of what he had to say, they would address it instead of dismissing it outright.

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

Further, Nemesis himself does the exact same thing he accuses “the establishment” (as though we have some PvE illuminati) of doing, which is cherrypicking numbers, situations, and results to match his statements, instead of the other way around. The problem is the establishment has generally proven themselves right, or quickly adapted when wrong, because they have the personal investment of speed run records. If Nemesis wanted to prove all that empirical data wrong, he could do so by beating their records and maintaining his own, but he can’t.

Simply put, if Nemesis wanted to prove himself right, he could do so. He could set his own records (and then hold on to them for more than a few hours until someone had the spare time to reduce it by minutes), he could do so constructively, without the attitude of someone whose head is so far up their own posterior they’ve come to believe their own crap is the only thing there is. But he doesn’t, because inflating his own ego gets him more views and followers, and like any other cult they don’t realize how ridiculous they are until they step outside for once and detox the kool aid.

I’m surprise you can still muster the courage to speak after you just recently said “i haven’t taken Nemesis serious since he claimed he does more DPS then a warrior”… when i baited all you elitists into insulting me so i have footage to show.

You still think you do more DPS with your warrior then i do with my necromancer, you don’t really understand how the game works… and now you’re even going back on what you guys claimed all this time.

You saw what Sesshi said a few times right ?… “It has been proved that necromancer is inferior”, “it has been proved that Nemesis builds are even more inferior”.

Well… everything you guys proved… was wrong.

The establishment never said their math doesn’t match reality, quite the opposite… they made a website on which they advertised a single possible composition making the entire community insta-kick everything else. No matter how much you guys try to sugar coat it now, you can’t take back what you guys have said over a period of two years… the majority knows you guys have discredited me, the majority knows you guys said 20K DPS… Why do you even try to deny it ?

I have also been wrongfully discredited over a period of two years… and you were one of the people who discredited me, as if you even have the game knowledge to do so. Every single build i posted in the last 2 years got flamed in the comment section by you elitists… now you’re playing the victims ? “Oh no… Nemesis is attacking us…”

You still have the nerve to continue talking… even after i provided 100% undeniable proof, that everything… you guys said… is false. slow clap
Or… are you saying that Narc is also casual in his world record Bloomberg kill ? Brazil is casual… Narc is casual ?… Painbow is casual ?… Who’s next ?…

You guys going to turn on each other now ?

“Cherry picked data”.
It was a world record… show me better footage… no really… i insist…

You can of course still prove me wrong, by recording your damage and showing us it matches the advertised damage, by all means… do that…

You still got the nerve to talk after in the deleted necro thread you were pretty much forced to emit you trash talked a necro for his build? Lol. You do the same thing you hate on the “elitists” for.

I’v said this on your youtube, you replied to it twice, not once did you mention anything to show I’m wrong. How comes you talk to other people about stuff and totally refuse to acknowledge this, huh? You totally didn’t respond and have failed to so I think its time to get a response, unless of course you can’t actually give a good response….

First off, “math in the void” is used to show DPS comparisons between classes. I don’t think anyone was saying in a actual situation you would do that much damage, it was there to do a comparison. Because if class A does X damage and class B does X+10 damage, you can expect class A won’t magically improve in a real fight. The exception is engineer because he has a particularly hard rotation. This pretty much makes your whole part 1,2, and 3 wrong.

Second is, warrior is taken for its offensive buffs, not its DPS. That’s why in dungeons warrior is taken and necro is not. Absolutely has nothing to do with personal DPS. With HoT I don’t know how this will change, have to wait and see.

Obtena.7952:

Bhawb.7408:

The establishment has always said that theoretical DPS doesn’t match up to in game. The point of theoretical DPS is simply to provide a meaningful benchmark, and because the combat in this game has thus far been easy enough that the gap between theoretical and experimental, and the differences in those differences between builds, are low because there is little to throw you off ideal rotations, theoretical is the most easily used and compared.

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

Why is this a problem? Because the calcs are being misused by people that don’t understand their restrictions/limitations as they just think it’s globally applicable. META is not the greatest build for all PVE situations; it never has been. Yet it’s promoted that way so unknowing people adopt meta because that’s the meta-pusher agenda.

Even though theorycrafters caveat their work with “might not match real game experience”, that doesn’t stop ignorant people from using those calculations (the sole reason to MAKE those calcs mind you) to justify poor behaviour with building teams, QQ on the forums about how bad a class is or give people misinformation about gameplay. The worst part is that the theorycrafters KNOW this is happening and don’t take care to ensure they make the limiting conditions of their calculations known. It’s pretty irresponsible IMO.

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

See my problem is that I’ve NEVER seen anyone who promotes meta builds say “Oh hey, It’s not that great for this particular situation”. Either they promote it or they sit back and watch the ignorance happen because they think it’s to their benefit for meta to be promoted everywhere, even if they do know it’s not optimal in every PVE situation.

I got my own ideas why theorycrafters don’t step up to defend their meta against ignorance, but I think in the end, it just works against them. When I see notable people promoting meta builds intended for dungeons for use in openworld content, I KNOW this isn’t limited to a few ignorant people.

Obtena.7952:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

See my problem is that I’ve NEVER seen anyone who promotes meta builds say “Oh hey, It’s not that great for this particular situation”. Either they promote it or they sit back and watch the ignorance happen because they think it’s to their benefit for meta to be promoted everywhere, even if they do know it’s not optimal in every PVE situation.

I got my own ideas why theorycrafters don’t step up to defend their meta against ignorance, but I think in the end, it just works against them. When I see notable people promoting meta builds intended for dungeons for use in openworld content, I KNOW this isn’t limited to a few ignorant people.

Clearly havent been paying attention then. Because i mention it all the time. Its in my guide. Also others have been saying it for years. Adapt to the situation means adapt to the situation. And that implies that some things arent as effective in some areas.

Battling ignorance is an impossible task. It takes way too much time. And often its willfull ignorance so the players concerned will never actually allow themselves to be receptive to your advice. Hence its an impossible task and waste of time. The players that listen often dont need the advice in the first place. And if they do they certainly dont need the extra detail that “battling ignorance” would involve.

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

See my problem is that I’ve NEVER seen anyone who promotes meta builds say “Oh hey, It’s not that great for this particular situation”. Either they promote it or they sit back and watch the ignorance happen because they think it’s to their benefit for meta to be promoted everywhere, even if they do know it’s not optimal in every PVE situation.

I got my own ideas why theorycrafters don’t step up to defend their meta against ignorance, but I think in the end, it just works against them. When I see notable people promoting meta builds intended for dungeons for use in openworld content, I KNOW this isn’t limited to a few ignorant people.

Clearly havent been paying attention then. Because i mention it all the time. Its in my guide. Also others have been saying it for years. Adapt to the situation means adapt to the situation. And that implies that some things arent as effective in some areas.

Battling ignorance is an impossible task. It takes way too much time. And often its willfull ignorance so the players concerned will never actually allow themselves to be receptive to your advice. Hence its an impossible task and waste of time. The players that listen often dont need the advice in the first place. And if they do they certainly dont need the extra detail that “battling ignorance” would involve.

I pay attention; I know you do but just because you mention it doesn’t mean others do as well. l wasn’t referring specifically to you, though I know from watching Nem’s vids, you guys got history. If you look past that stuff, I think his vids have some things everyone should think about. Especially about the value that doing these calculations has for the community and on it.

I’m aware battling ignorance is an impossible task, yet all these great calculations are released like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place. I said it before, it’s worth repeating .. if it wasn’t for people promoting ‘the best’ builds with math, knowing full well clueless people would not understand the limitations of these builds, then the only thing left would be ignorant people arguing among themselves what the best build based on some anecdotal information. It’s Pandora’s Box. Thankfully, Anet is abandoning AND trashing dungeons and made the encounters in HoT in a way where meta is meaningless.

Obtena.7952:

spoj.9672:

Obtena.7952:

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

So basically some ignorant people think its optimal in situations its not and that’s somehow the people who make the builds problem? It’s like people who complain that a company doesn’t warn you that the Coffey they sell is hot. If you check out the build in the link it very clearly says the following: [DnT] PvE DPS Sinister Engineer For Dungeons and Fractals 8/3/15

So it does even come with a dummy label!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UeNcqdSJI8

See my problem is that I’ve NEVER seen anyone who promotes meta builds say “Oh hey, It’s not that great for this particular situation”. Either they promote it or they sit back and watch the ignorance happen because they think it’s to their benefit for meta to be promoted everywhere, even if they do know it’s not optimal in every PVE situation.

I got my own ideas why theorycrafters don’t step up to defend their meta against ignorance, but I think in the end, it just works against them. When I see notable people promoting meta builds intended for dungeons for use in openworld content, I KNOW this isn’t limited to a few ignorant people.

Clearly havent been paying attention then. Because i mention it all the time. Its in my guide. Also others have been saying it for years. Adapt to the situation means adapt to the situation. And that implies that some things arent as effective in some areas.

Battling ignorance is an impossible task. It takes way too much time. And often its willfull ignorance so the players concerned will never actually allow themselves to be receptive to your advice. Hence its an impossible task and waste of time. The players that listen often dont need the advice in the first place. And if they do they certainly dont need the extra detail that “battling ignorance” would involve.

I pay attention; I know you do but just because you mention it doesn’t mean others do as well. l wasn’t referring specifically to you, though I know from watching Nem’s vids, you guys got history. If you look past that stuff, I think his vids have some things everyone should think about. Especially about the value that doing these calculations has for the community and on it.

I’m aware battling ignorance is an impossible task, yet all these great calculations are released like it wasn’t going to happen in the first place. I said it before, it’s worth repeating .. if it wasn’t for people promoting ‘the best’ builds with math, knowing full well clueless people would not understand the limitations of these builds, then the only thing left would be ignorant people arguing among themselves what the best build based on some anecdotal information. It’s Pandora’s Box. Thankfully, Anet is abandoning AND trashing dungeons and made the encounters in HoT in a way where meta is meaningless.

Think Spoj summed it up. Even people who put labels on Coffey cups saying its hot you still get guy who burn themselves by not realizing. And there will still be a meta for HoT encounters.

I noticed the trend is tending to be an attempt to shift the blame away from the people that make the and on to those that trusted it at face value.

Id just like to throw my two cents in.

First: Its the build promoters fault for not being EXTREMELY clear. And also (as evidence has shown) massively exaggerating there likely performance with said build. They should have taken steps to promote what the practical reality of there build is as well as the theoretical value. Ultimately the practical value is more important.

Second: its the fault of the players for trusting people on the internet. For assuming what there being told is 100% true and 100% accurate. And for not double checking what there told. Or even using common sense. It shouldn’t be hard to look at there numbers in game and do a bit of quick math on the spot. Its simple addition and division. And you can even round numbers to the nearest thousand and still get a ballpark estimate.

Honestly. I put more blame on the build promoters. They were the ones that truly benefited from any confusion. And they earned there fame based on that confusion.

At the same time though the ones that accepted those builds aren’t entirely blameless. Ignorance is bliss until you realize you’ve been mislead.

@Shadelang And then there are those countless ignorant pugs who take these “metabuilds” to horrible situations and force others to do so aswell with the threat of a kick. Funny thing is that some of these kicked guys had a build far superior to that particular encounter than the meta scrubs.

Shadelang.3012:

I noticed the trend is tending to be an attempt to shift the blame away from the people that make the and on to those that trusted it at face value.

Id just like to throw my two cents in.

First: Its the build promoters fault for not being EXTREMELY clear. And also (as evidence has shown) massively exaggerating there likely performance with said build. They should have taken steps to promote what the practical reality of there build is as well as the theoretical value. Ultimately the practical value is more important.

Second: its the fault of the players for trusting people on the internet. For assuming what there being told is 100% true and 100% accurate. And for not double checking what there told. Or even using common sense. It shouldn’t be hard to look at there numbers in game and do a bit of quick math on the spot. Its simple addition and division. And you can even round numbers to the nearest thousand and still get a ballpark estimate.

Honestly. I put more blame on the build promoters. They were the ones that truly benefited from any confusion. And they earned there fame based on that confusion.

At the same time though the ones that accepted those builds aren’t entirely blameless. Ignorance is bliss until you realize you’ve been mislead.

lmao yes
DnT surely was completely unknown before GW2 and people would surely trick a whole community and split them up in order to be known on a video game, gg.
It is not the fault of the build creators at all, if you search for the main culprit there then idk. Everyone has this thing called “brain”, if they decide to blindly accept all information without confirming/checking for other options and expanding their horizons, only they are to blame. No one else.

Im not sure if this thread serves a purpose of a trashtalk or an actual conversation but i have some actual knowledge to throw in here. Thing is dps is pretty much worthless cause it can jump up and down depending on a situation around you and pretty much its a fancy number to boost ur ego. Its not all black in white. What matters is “Damage Dealt”. If u want to compete or compare the builds u just count all the dmg uve dealt in a particular fight in a particular amount of time. And u pretty much cannot go wrong with it cause its pretty basic math. THat being said, i think we dont need it at all. Its not that hard to be effective in this game. Just a week ago or smth i had a frac 50 run with guildies and we had guardian with a very strange setup. He used Sentinel armor and some kind of rune to converts some def stats into power and he was packing kittenload of support skills. We were making fun of him ofc but in the end of the day it was a pretty solid run. Not the best time ofc but much better than ur general “pug meta run”. Maybe we as a community can give them a chance, thats all i have to say. Cheers!

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Spoj… people saw how you said “Nemesis DS build is a gimmicky build, nothing more” amongst like 40-50 other remarks of the kind for over 2 years, all based on math that is false.

You claimed 13.4K DPS… higher then me… yet you were doing 6K…

You lied about me, you faked advertised… and you discredited my work nonstop for the last 2 years. Then you went and taught every necromancer to use dagger 1 in every situation, then they got crushed… felt like they do no damage, and so eventually an unknown number of people stopped playing the class entirely.

Now… you appear here again as if nothing happened.

Bawb said “no one was kicking necromancers”.

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

It’s mind-blowing and hilarious at the same time, how you got caught up in your own lies, there is video proof of that like 2 links away… and you guys still try to sugar coat it and act as if nothing happened.

It takes a special kind of < >, to be able to act that way… after everything… i’ll give you guys that much.

Bhawb.7408:

Obtena.7952:

The problem isn’t that the model doesn’t match the actual; The problem is that the model is too simple and doesn’t cover more scenarios, leading to promotion of the ‘optimized’ meta in situations where it’s not. A great example is when people promote the meta for openworld map completion on a Guardian. The current meta is not optimal for that content; it never has been as a matter of fact.

It covers the scenarios it was meant for, being taken out of context isn’t anyone’s fault other than the morons who do it. There is nothing you’ll convince them otherwise, they’ll always stick to their unfounded views, so why bother changing what you are doing because of it.

Did you just call all the people i showed in my “fractal LFG” which said “zerker ele or kick, NO NECRO” morons ?

You just called half the community morons… for believing what you guys were teaching them.

mind = blown

PS: Are you a speed runner ? Do you hold any records ?… Have you created a single build in your life ?… Have you tested the real DPS values of them “meta builds” a single time ?…

Based on what exactly do you now tell others that “it covers the scenarios it was meant for”, based on the fake math ?…

You can’t verify fake math… by saying “aaa… well the fake math proved it”, you know that right ?

Nemesis would you be able to break any world records with a necro in the group? That would prove how good necro is.

I mean I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong… Your method of measuring DPS that you show in your videos does make sense. You just look at the actual damage dealt. Pretty logical. But you’re only looking at the damage from 1/5th of the group and not comparing the offensive support given to the group by each character.

So I don’t see how this debate can be resolved until you show a result that is completely undisputable like a necro participating in a world record or something extremely close like within 1%-5% of the record.

Because while your method of comparing individual character DPS shows some interesting things, it doesn’t consider enough of the factors that go into choosing a character when building an optimized team.

And I’m not trying to argue against you here. I just don’t think you have presented enough evidence to positively affect the general perception of the necromancer. Because at the end of the day, the dudes who are doing the world record runs still aren’t using necros. It is impossible for you to convince them because they believe that the “math in a void” as you call it will always correlate to real DPS.

For example, from their perspective, Hypothetically character A does 10k DPS on paper and character B does 8k DPS on paper. In our hypothetical encounter the real DPS averages out to 80% due to mechanics, player error, etc. Player A will do 8k and Player B will do 6.4k. The problem with trying to argue against that is, it’s not really a flawed perspective. It’s logical. But you can potentially show it to be incorrect with enough testing if it is, in fact, incorrect.

You’d have to run a lot of actual encounters with different builds and compare the paper DPS to the actual DPS. In some cases you did mention factors that differentiate builds such as the AoE ground targetting engi getting better uptime specifically against Mossman, but that’s not good enough.

So I think you either have to grind through a bunch of builds and compare their DPS loss in practice in several different encounters, or you have to just beat a world record with a necro in the group. Both are not easy options but they would be effective for your argument if successful.

Khristophoros.7194:

Nemesis would you be able to break any world records with a necro in the group? That would prove how good necro is.

I mean I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong… Your method of measuring DPS that you show in your videos does make sense. You just look at the actual damage dealt. Pretty logical. But you’re only looking at the damage from 1/5th of the group and not comparing the offensive support given to the group by each character.

So I don’t see how this debate can be resolved until you show a result that is completely undisputable like a necro participating in a world record or something extremely close like within 1%-5% of the record.

Because while your method of comparing individual character DPS shows some interesting things, it doesn’t consider enough of the factors that go into choosing a character when building an optimized team.

And I’m not trying to argue against you here. I just don’t think you have presented enough evidence to positively affect the general perception of the necromancer. Because at the end of the day, the dudes who are doing the world record runs still aren’t using necros. It is impossible for you to convince them because they believe that the “math in a void” as you call it will always correlate to real DPS.

For example, from their perspective, Hypothetically character A does 10k DPS on paper and character B does 8k DPS on paper. In our hypothetical encounter the real DPS averages out to 80% due to mechanics, player error, etc. Player A will do 8k and Player B will do 6.4k. The problem with trying to argue against that is, it’s not really a flawed perspective. It’s logical. But you can potentially show it to be incorrect with enough testing if it is, in fact, incorrect.

You’d have to run a lot of actual encounters with different builds and compare the paper DPS to the actual DPS. In some cases you did mention factors that differentiate builds such as the AoE ground targetting engi getting better uptime specifically against Mossman, but that’s not good enough.

So I think you either have to grind through a bunch of builds and compare their DPS loss in practice in several different encounters, or you have to just beat a world record with a necro in the group. Both are not easy options but they would be effective for your argument if successful.

The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided. The current advertised “world record holder” had a DPS of 6K before he picked up the icebow, as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.

Therefor… asking me to beat “those” world records, which can’t even be replicated anymore because icebow got nerfed in half, is pure trolling.

… but yes, if they do non-icebow records… i am pretty sure i can come close to what they do if not do it even better.

You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.

Even before Lich Form got properly scaled, i did a CoF necro only speed run, and i came in 20 seconds slower then the world record.
This is actually a fun idea… 4 of MY glass cannon necromancers and 1 mesmer vs Bloomhunger, pretty sure i can go under 30 sec… since we don’t need to prebuff, and in world records you don’t prebuff.

Not trying to convince the people who lied to get famous, that they lied to get famous… they know it already but will never admit to it. I am merely providing evidence that they have lied, so that in the future a lot less people get fooled by their lies…

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Or they just don’t want to bother trying to have a meaningful discussion with someone who’s behaving like a child throwing a tantrum.
Again, if you want people to take you seriously you have to drop this pointlessly resentful attitude.

Nemesis.8593:

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

I’ll explain it for you again, so you get it as well this time:

In that engi video Nike says the following things:

1. it’s a build for dungeons and fractals, and it would be most effective in lvl 80 instances against targets with high hp.

2. After 14 seconds the damage exceeds the sustained damage of a zerker engi.

3. It can reach up to 20k dps.

Any normal person will conclude the following:
There’s a ramp up time for conditions, then after a while you will do more damage per second than a zerker engi, not an average damage including the ramp up but the damage per second after those initial 14 seconds or whatever. Also, under the right circumstances, in the right group with the right buffs against the right target, you can get up to 20k dps. That’s not an average damage, as in all damage done devided by the duration of the fight, no, this is peak damage that you can expect to maintain for a shorter duration during the encounter.

Nemesis reaction: this engi says he’s doing 20k dps at all times against all targets, always?! That’s a lie! Also, that means that everyone else has been lying as well, and I was always right. Suck it, people! And apologize while you’re at it.

Nemesis.8593:

Khristophoros.7194:

Nemesis would you be able to break any world records with a necro in the group? That would prove how good necro is.

I mean I’m not trying to tell you you’re wrong… Your method of measuring DPS that you show in your videos does make sense. You just look at the actual damage dealt. Pretty logical. But you’re only looking at the damage from 1/5th of the group and not comparing the offensive support given to the group by each character.

So I don’t see how this debate can be resolved until you show a result that is completely undisputable like a necro participating in a world record or something extremely close like within 1%-5% of the record.

Because while your method of comparing individual character DPS shows some interesting things, it doesn’t consider enough of the factors that go into choosing a character when building an optimized team.

And I’m not trying to argue against you here. I just don’t think you have presented enough evidence to positively affect the general perception of the necromancer. Because at the end of the day, the dudes who are doing the world record runs still aren’t using necros. It is impossible for you to convince them because they believe that the “math in a void” as you call it will always correlate to real DPS.

For example, from their perspective, Hypothetically character A does 10k DPS on paper and character B does 8k DPS on paper. In our hypothetical encounter the real DPS averages out to 80% due to mechanics, player error, etc. Player A will do 8k and Player B will do 6.4k. The problem with trying to argue against that is, it’s not really a flawed perspective. It’s logical. But you can potentially show it to be incorrect with enough testing if it is, in fact, incorrect.

You’d have to run a lot of actual encounters with different builds and compare the paper DPS to the actual DPS. In some cases you did mention factors that differentiate builds such as the AoE ground targetting engi getting better uptime specifically against Mossman, but that’s not good enough.

So I think you either have to grind through a bunch of builds and compare their DPS loss in practice in several different encounters, or you have to just beat a world record with a necro in the group. Both are not easy options but they would be effective for your argument if successful.

The advertised world records were done using multiple Icebows, which do up to 80K DPS for 3.7 sec, boosting the DPS of a player from about 8-10K into 28K… as you have clearly seen in the videos provided. The current advertised “world record holder” had a DPS of 6K before he picked up the icebow, as you have clearly seen in the videos provided.

Therefor… asking me to beat “those” world records, which can’t even be replicated anymore because icebow got nerfed in half, is pure trolling.

… but yes, if they do non-icebow records… i am pretty sure i can come close to what they do if not do it even better.

You’ve seen Brazil’s DPS match that of world record holders, and unless his entire party was dragging him down… which they weren’t since i calculated their average / per player… as you’ve seen in the videos provided… a NON-ICEBOW record is about 30-35 sec.
I have already done a 30-35 sec Bloomhunger kill with a pug group… as you have seen in the videos provided.

Even before Lich Form got properly scaled, i did a CoF necro only speed run, and i came in 20 seconds slower then the world record.
This is actually a fun idea… 4 of MY glass cannon necromancers and 1 mesmer vs Bloomhunger, pretty sure i can go under 30 sec… since we don’t need to prebuff, and in world records you don’t prebuff.

Not trying to convince the people who lied to get famous, that they lied to get famous… they know it already but will never admit to it. I am merely providing evidence that they have lied, so that in the future a lot less people get fooled by their lies…

Well what I meant is you didn’t show a large enough sample to be convincing.

A more convincing way would be to average out the real DPS of a character over many instances of the same encounter, then compare that to the theoretical DPS of the character. That gives you a ratio. Do this for other builds and compare those ratios.

If the ratios are all roughly the same for every build, then you were wrong and theoretical DPS is a good benchmark. If you find that the ratios vary drastically from one character to another, then you were right and theoretical DPS is a bad benchmark.

flow.6043:

Nemesis.8593:

As expected… half the people who discredited me every chance they got don’t dare say a single word (they are the ones who realized just what happened), the other half still try to sugar coat it (the ones who are truly delusional).

Or they just don’t want to bother trying to have a meaningful discussion with someone who’s behaving like a child throwing a tantrum.
Again, if you want people to take you seriously you have to drop this pointlessly resentful attitude.

Nemesis.8593:

Some other people said “well no one believed they were actually doing that DPS”… when you can clearly see Nike… teaching his followers how condition engineer does 20K DPS and it’s much higher then a warrior after 20 sec.

I’ll explain it for you again, so you get it as well this time:

In that engi video Nike says the following things:

1. it’s a build for dungeons and fractals, and it would be most effective in lvl 80 instances against targets with high hp.

2. After 14 seconds the damage exceeds the sustained damage of a zerker engi.

3. It can reach up to 20k dps.

Any normal person will conclude the following:
There’s a ramp up time for conditions, then after a while you will do more damage per second than a zerker engi, not an average damage including the ramp up but the damage per second after those initial 14 seconds or whatever. Also, under the right circumstances, in the right group with the right buffs against the right target, you can get up to 20k dps. That’s not an average damage, as in all damage done devided by the duration of the fight, no, this is peak damage that you can expect to maintain for a shorter duration during the encounter.

Nemesis reaction: this engi says he’s doing 20k dps at all times against all targets, always?! That’s a lie! Also, that means that everyone else has been lying as well, and I was always right. Suck it, people! And apologize while you’re at it.

You haven’t added a single real DPS value in your entire life and you “explain” things to me. Cute…

It is not “average of 20K DPS” as advertised, that was a straight up lie… unless you take out all the ramp-up time and just say for example… “sinister engineer does 20K DPS… in the 34, 35, and 36 second of the fight…” which is straight up pure insanity, and serves no real purpose other then to fool the community for personal gain.
Btw… are you saying Nike said “what could be… the highest DPSer in the game” based on “peak DPS” ? You guys keep blowing my mind with how much you really understand about the game.

You either know all these facts and you are trolling me, or you don’t… in which case it means you don’t have a basic understand of math, which means there’s a high chance i just wasted time explaining basic math to a very young person who hasn’t reached that level of math in school.

What am i even doing here…

PS: You know there are laws against “fake advertising” which state that if the “real value” is under 50% of the “advertised value” in 90% of cases… the advertiser won’t have a very fun time.

Well in my country at least, not sure about the rest of the world. That’s how a lot of internet companies got some massive fines, since they advertised internet up to “1GB/s” even though half the time the internet was so bad you couldn’t even load google… like 1 MB/s.

It’s textbook false advertising… literally textbook false advertising.

I got ridiculed and discredited for 2 years, by people who false advertised… and they also ruined the community… now everyone thinks they do 20K DPS while they pewpew 2K…

…and i should take the high road and continue making builds, only to be ridiculed again ? For making proper builds ? Which actually work without icebow ?

Ridiculed by people who don’t have a understanding of basic math, and think they do more DPS on their own… then an entire party does at Flame Shaman, even while using 6 icebows… before Icebow was nerfed in half… Why ?… Because i wanted to help them.

Ha ha… i laughed.
Seriously… what am i even doing here.

Shadelang.3012:

Second: its the fault of the players for trusting people on the internet. For assuming what there being told is 100% true and 100% accurate. And for not double checking what there told. Or even using common sense. It shouldn’t be hard to look at there numbers in game and do a bit of quick math on the spot. Its simple addition and division. And you can even round numbers to the nearest thousand and still get a ballpark estimate

Most people just copyn paste stuff without thinking too much about it.
GW2 offers little help to compare builds which makes it even worse.

I don’t know how much dps build X does or how much build Z does. If I want to compare builds I would have to fight against the same enemy. As Nemesis has said: damage is divided by armour. So you can’t compare dps of fighting against different enemies. I don’t know how “theoretical dps” is measured. GW2 gives no values, so players must have tested them somewhere. When its tested with PVP golems you have to compare those theoretical dps with the PVP golems, too.
To give a very obvious example: fight as a zerk against a mordrem husk should result in lower dps than fighting against ambient creatures.

Nemesis method is a bit tricky. You have to make sure might/vuln/fury is always capped. But also protection, weakness, dodges or a smaller hitbox can influence dps. It should result in “tested dps” value, which is only true against this enemy. Another enemy (for example with another armour, but also with condi-remove or invuln phases – or when you are using potions) will give you a different value.
Imho are also several tries needed to get an average value.

I think dps comparisions don’t really matter that much. Classes are taken for their role in a team. You can replace some classes when you know the content and what those classes do. Replacing a PS warrior with a necro might result in a lack of might. Maybe your ele can compensate it. But this requires a good knowledge of the game, players adapting their builds/equip. Which is difficult in a PUG. I think most PUGs don’t know what everyone in their team is doing. If you don’t know it its difficult to replace a player – you might end up with a lack of stabi and wipe.
Metabuilds usually are “good working” builds, not the optimal choice. In GW1 sabway was for a long time meta. Not because of its speed, but it was a very good working build for nearly every situation. An all-round build. Same goes for “GW2s dungeon meta”, you can see the same teamcompositions in AC/COE/CM/…

Bosses in the past were fast dying, which had a huge influence on the meta. It might change a bit now with raids, we’ll see. Conditions might become stronger – but when many enemies got a condi remove…