Guild Wars 2

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Exactly, which shouldn’t be hard to see.. after all, There’s slow motion feature on youtube

Batresh.3958:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Exactly, which shouldn’t be hard to see.. after all, There’s slow motion feature on youtube

That doesn’t change anything. In short fight Necromancer can have decent DPS (between Guardian and Thief I guess), but with a Cooldown of 180sec because of lich.

Like a lot of people already said. Necromance isn’t bad a all. It have a high burst single target burst capability, but that’s not enough to make him a peer to all other profession.

Hopefully the Reaper GS will give him a decent enough weapon to keep his DPS high when he’s out of Lich Form/DS.

After that we can just cross our finger so that raid need a lot of boons ripping and weakness uptime.

TheDevice.2751:

1. Somebody else used the dropped Ice bow.

Yes but that calculation was for Brazil’s warrior. So the icebow someone else used is irrelevant…. It has no effect on Brazil’s dps.

And the demonstration was horribly skewed in the necros favour. Anyone with half a brain cell can see that.

Anyway i dont want to discuss this. Im still trying to forget some of the cringe.

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

They are arguing about this in the warrior forum. Purple Miku has thrown down a challenge for any necro to beat his time on Korga. Any takers?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-does-Less-DPS-than-the-WORST-class/page/2#post5455934

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

I have the opposite experience and I’m also on TC. I don’t see many groups that are picky about which professions people bring, and I often receive compliments for my necro play.

xarallei.4279:

They are arguing about this in the warrior forum. Purple Miku has thrown down a challenge for any necro to beat his time on Korga. Any takers?

https://forum-en.gw2archive.eu/forum/professions/warrior/Warrior-does-Less-DPS-than-the-WORST-class/page/2#post5455934

I read it all and it made me question what I’m even doing with my life.

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

I have the opposite experience and I’m also on TC. I don’t see many groups that are picky about which professions people bring, and I often receive compliments for my necro play.

Well let me know what’s your secret recipe because my fractal 50’s would be so much nicer if I got to play the class I actually wanted to play instead of the usual ele/guardian for the past 3 years I’ve had to play.

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

I have the opposite experience and I’m also on TC. I don’t see many groups that are picky about which professions people bring, and I often receive compliments for my necro play.

Well let me know what’s your secret recipe because my fractal 50’s would be so much nicer if I got to play the class I actually wanted to play instead of the usual ele/guardian for the past 3 years I’ve had to play.

I don’t bother to join ones that specify they want X profession, or if it says metazerk.

But that said, my LFG isn’t completely full of those like Nemesis’ video shows.

And if I want to do fotm and there are no groups, I just make one myself. This is important. Just make a group if you don’t see one that you want to join.

Actually the only character I have with enough AR for scale 50 is my necro. lol.

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

I have the opposite experience and I’m also on TC. I don’t see many groups that are picky about which professions people bring, and I often receive compliments for my necro play.

Well let me know what’s your secret recipe because my fractal 50’s would be so much nicer if I got to play the class I actually wanted to play instead of the usual ele/guardian for the past 3 years I’ve had to play.

I don’t bother to join ones that specify they want X profession, or if it says metazerk.

But that said, my LFG isn’t completely full of those like Nemesis’ video shows.

And if I want to do fotm and there are no groups, I just make one myself. This is important. Just make a group if you don’t see one that you want to join.

Actually the only character I have with enough AR for scale 50 is my necro. lol.

I make a fractal 50 on my necro, I wait for over 20 minutes if I’m lucky and someone joins.

I make a fractal 50 on ele/guardian/warrior, it fills up in less than 5 minutes.

And if I do make a group on my necro, I’ll probably get clerics/knights geared terrible players a lot of the time. At least the terrible zerkers do some damage before going down; these people don’t do damage and still go down.

This kind of stuff is so beyond ridiculous. It’s like trying to apply rocket science to making a sandwich. There’s absolutely no need to take a video game so seriously. If you’re actually so upset with a “delusional” community that you need to be, ironically, as elite as the elitists with your ignorant attitude, then you need to take a break from the game.

These are the kind of people that lose too many PvP matches, rage quit and go drown a kitten to relieve their frustrations. It is incredibly pathetic. I don’t care how right or wrong the video is, the person himself needs to be reminded that this is a video game and not real life.

SpellOfIniquity.1780:

This kind of stuff is so beyond ridiculous. It’s like trying to apply rocket science to making a sandwich. There’s absolutely no need to take a video game so seriously.

Well he made that video only because there are people around that take video game so seriously that they only accept a few classes with one type of gear and they exploit skills. So not him is the problem tbh.

Blaine Tog.8304:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d2b7dpC0liQ

Thoughts? Aside from how silly it is that linecasting has been allowed to be a thing?

The amount of condescension in that video was sickening.

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Zenith.7301:

Khristophoros.7194:

Why does his LFG look different from mine? Serious question. I rarely see groups that demand metazerk on LFG.

I do, all the time. Tarnished Coast, US EST time zone. I’m constantly asked to switch from my necro/ranger/mesmer to ele/guard/warrior/thief all the kitten time for fractal 50 dailies if I’m not outright kicked before loading into the zone.

Class prejudice in LFG is real.

I have the opposite experience and I’m also on TC. I don’t see many groups that are picky about which professions people bring, and I often receive compliments for my necro play.

Well let me know what’s your secret recipe because my fractal 50’s would be so much nicer if I got to play the class I actually wanted to play instead of the usual ele/guardian for the past 3 years I’ve had to play.

I don’t bother to join ones that specify they want X profession, or if it says metazerk.

But that said, my LFG isn’t completely full of those like Nemesis’ video shows.

And if I want to do fotm and there are no groups, I just make one myself. This is important. Just make a group if you don’t see one that you want to join.

Actually the only character I have with enough AR for scale 50 is my necro. lol.

I make a fractal 50 on my necro, I wait for over 20 minutes if I’m lucky and someone joins.

I make a fractal 50 on ele/guardian/warrior, it fills up in less than 5 minutes.

And if I do make a group on my necro, I’ll probably get clerics/knights geared terrible players a lot of the time. At least the terrible zerkers do some damage before going down; these people don’t do damage and still go down.

This sums up my fractal pugging experiences quite well. I end up having to roll Warrior or Guard most of the time, while my Necro and Engi that I also got full ascended gear on hardly ever gets playtime.

I wish Anet would rework the icebow. Make it heal or something like that. Hopefully it would make doubling up on eles less lucrative.

If that’d not work I’m sure removing the Fury from Persisting Flames trait would mix things up a bit.

Any support this guy gets saddens me about how people will agree with anything that opposes the popular opinion even when it’s wrong.

spoj.9672:

I recommend you avoid watching that video if you want to maintain your mental health. His bad math and “dps uptime” is contagious.

“Brazil had X dps with icebow and timwarp!”. No icebow was used in that clip. #logic

“Each party member is worth roughly 25% of the group’s DPS” Does that mean hes worth 0% and the other 4 do all the damage?

Video is full of embarrasing things like that.

Spoj is right on all counts. In general Nemesis’ timing is off for when to start DPS calculations, and doesn’t account for the, you know, not 100% uptime of Lich Form. He also compares to Warrior DPS with a video of a Warrior totally botching his rotation and not even using the correct loadout. My favorite part was him complaining about burst DPS and then comparing it immediately to Lich Form DPS. Are you serious?

About the only thing he said right in the video was that Ice Bow is OP, and trust me when I say that the entire ‘elitist’ community has been preaching that for years.

He has some fair points. Ice Bow isn’t healthy for the game. Pre buffing or waiting for the perfect party can often cause longer runs in total. And in some encounters you do more damage with a ranged weapon that in downstate with a melee one.

But good god the way this is presented is awful… I actually like his vids but i seriously hope that this “style” of speaking to the “elitists” was a one time thing only. Don’t think i can endure through the next one.

Wonder how the meta will change after icebow 4 gets eventually nerfed.
It could be the dawn of the engi meta!
Iirc sinister engi does the highest sustained dps and zerker engi is also up there near top when it comes to burst.

He makes it seam like linecasting is the easiest thing in the world. Plz go post a video of a daily dungeon tour where all the bosses were linecasted. And yes, a FEW bosses have a large HB, but that’s a FEW. Also, you don’t need to linecast to blow up bosses, it’s the fact that bosses have like 0 HP ( which I hope they change in raids ). Also, necromancer isn’t taken because they do slightly less DPS than a warrior, it’s cause warrior can apply banners while running in and then apply AoE might while in a fight. And for what its worth, I think it’s stupid to kick a necro that joins a group. In a casual tour your not going to notice the different between a necro and some other class. Also, just because you find some stupid people in the game that kick necros etc doesn’t mean that’s the majority of people that wear zerker gear. You also make it seam like skipping mobs is a exploit? Go into arah in a “all welcome” group and you will see the hardest part is the skipping. Of course, you can just stealth past which does lessen the skill required pretty much, but you would need to buff thief/engi if you were to take away most of there stealth. But then again, I don’t really expect much, after all, this is coming from the guy that thought stacking on bosses was effected months after the 2nd feature patch which kinda shows you have no clue what he’s talking about whatsoever.

Rising Dusk.2408:

Any support this guy gets saddens me about how people will agree with anything that opposes the popular opinion even when it’s wrong.

And for me it´s saddening that somebody who calls himself a “Forum Specialist for Dungeons and Fractals” is coming here trying to discredite somebody in one sentence who puts great effort in proofing his point. It´s OK if you disagree with this guy but you should at least invalidate his arguments with some more evidence and detail.

TheFrighteningFrenchFry.3275:

He makes it seam like linecasting is the easiest thing in the world. Plz go post a video of a daily dungeon tour where all the bosses were linecasted. And yes, a FEW bosses have a large HB, but that’s a FEW. Also, you don’t need to linecast to blow up bosses, it’s the fact that bosses have like 0 HP ( which I hope they change in raids ). Also, necromancer isn’t taken because they do slightly less DPS than a warrior, it’s cause warrior can apply banners while running in and then apply AoE might while in a fight. And for what its worth, I think it’s stupid to kick a necro that joins a group. In a casual tour your not going to notice the different between a necro and some other class. Also, just because you find some stupid people in the game that kick necros etc doesn’t mean that’s the majority of people that wear zerker gear. You also make it seam like skipping mobs is a exploit? Go into arah in a “all welcome” group and you will see the hardest part is the skipping. Of course, you can just stealth past which does lessen the skill required pretty much, but you would need to buff thief/engi if you were to take away most of there stealth. But then again, I don’t really expect much, after all, this is coming from the guy that thought stacking on bosses was effected months after the 2nd feature patch which kinda shows you have no clue what he’s talking about whatsoever.

Dude I’m pretty sure his point about linecasting is that the meta is only optimal when you linecast icebow. So he’s calling people scrubs who run the meta and don’t know how to optimize it.

I think that’s really his only good point in the video and it explains my experience pugging.

Sometimes I get groups that are all meta besides my necro. Either by accident or they didn’t specify in the LFG. But usually these groups aren’t particularly fast compared to when I just have a random assortment of professions. Rarely I get people abusing linecasting and doing everything correctly and then it’s really fast.

Sometimes I get random pugs without eles, without anything resembling meta, but it’s really fast. Usually these groups have engineers… because you don’t have to abuse anything special on engi to get massive DPS, you just toss grenades. It blows my mind that engi isn’t more popular.

draugris.9872:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Any support this guy gets saddens me about how people will agree with anything that opposes the popular opinion even when it’s wrong.

And for me it´s saddening that somebody who calls himself a “Forum Specialist for Dungeons and Fractals” is coming here trying to discredite somebody in one sentence who puts great effort in proofing his point. It´s OK if you disagree with this guy but you should at least invalidate his arguments with some more evidence and detail.

Well, sure it seems that way when you delete the rest of what he said.

Forum specialists arent representative of arenanet. They are still entitled to their own opinions and are free to express them. And nemesis provides plenty of evidence in his own video to discredit himself.

draugris.9872:

Rising Dusk.2408:

Any support this guy gets saddens me about how people will agree with anything that opposes the popular opinion even when it’s wrong.

And for me it´s saddening that somebody who calls himself a “Forum Specialist for Dungeons and Fractals” is coming here trying to discredite somebody in one sentence who puts great effort in proofing his point. It´s OK if you disagree with this guy but you should at least invalidate his arguments with some more evidence and detail.

What saddens me is that some people accept pretty much anything when you make a 30 min video about it.

draugris.9872:

And for me it´s saddening that somebody who calls himself a “Forum Specialist for Dungeons and Fractals” is coming here trying to discredite somebody in one sentence who puts great effort in proofing his point. It´s OK if you disagree with this guy but you should at least invalidate his arguments with some more evidence and detail.

Maybe you didn’t read the rest of my post. It’s still up there if you’d like to.

Snipping

Blaine Tog.8304:

He’s supposedly railing against elitists while acting actually quite elitist himself.

This is the main thing I find disappointing with his current apparent direction. When I first found him (was it over 2 years ago now? Jesus) he was really good at pointing out (and calling out) toxic behaviour but then he kind of went on a fight fire with fire spree, looked too long into the abyss and so the abyss looked back and all that.

Blaine Tog.8304:

You put people on the defensive and they’ll just counterattack regardless of whether you’re right or wrong.

Heh, I think some of the comments here are going to be evidence of this. If people have a predisposed idea to something (or someone) it can be difficult to present an alternate view point that they won’t just dismiss out of hand even if you do everything right and are the most eloquent and respectful person in existence.

The only other thing I have to say is about

group support is more important than individual DPS, after all.

I wonder if anyone could truly pinpoint when this idea became commonly accepted, because it certainly hasn’t always been held in prominence by the visible aspects of the metamind conglomerate. =)

And of course, lets not forget that quickness buffs the outgoing number of auto attacks for a build, and necro takes almost all of it’s coefficients from auto attacking, so his lich form was buffed more than the warrior with all of its cooldowns locking it’s highest damage skills.

At least he showcases that necro dps is very well comparable to other classes, burstier even which is a good thing in the current pve state. The necro hate in the dung/fractal scene is real and very toxic (ive been kicked by 3k ap warriors cause i played ‘’ranged necro’’), and i really dislike going to metabattle and seeing the only necro dungeon build in the last category.
And i also agree with nemesis that dps uptime is important. see how many people can stay melee on colossus or mossman…see how often the eles or thieves, (often alts because the non meta mains get kicked), which have great dps against the golem in the mists, get downed…

i dont think the video is very accurate in some things but it does get a message across.

Rashagar.8349:

I wonder if anyone could truly pinpoint when this idea became commonly accepted, because it certainly hasn’t always been held in prominence by the visible aspects of the metamind conglomerate. =)

Probably when everyone realized you don’t need individual survival utilities to complete content so you might as well bring whatever buffs damage the most, which is group buffs by a long shot.

Not only that but group buffing wasn’t as strong on release and then it got … buffed. heh.

Rashagar.8349:

I wonder if anyone could truly pinpoint when this idea became commonly accepted, because it certainly hasn’t always been held in prominence by the visible aspects of the metamind conglomerate. =)

Beautiful sentence, very poetic! I think that by its very nature, build design for speed-clearing inevitably gravitates towards optimal group dps.

Nemesis himself uses this as a credo to design many of his builds (‘never take an advantage at the cost of your team’s disadvantage’). Nemesis has some great points as usual, but I agree with you that he’s also a tad to aggressive here. I also don’t see the need to polarize the community just before hot.

If you look past the mistakes, which are just academic inconsistencies, you see there is a higher level message here and I think that’s why he uses such aggressive language in the video. Unfortunately, he’s got to play this numbers game to demonstrate his point because it’s the only thing that gets through to people.

Sure, Ice Bow needs the nerf, but if it’s not ice bow, then it’s something else that’s pushing people towards the best DPS. Problem I think is that people didn’t anticipate this push going outside profession levels … but eventually it will. Why do you think there are professions less and less accepted in teams? It’s the evolution of the meta from profession to the team level. It’s gonna bite the current ‘profession level meta pushers’ in the kitten , unless of course they are playing the right ‘meta professions’ … oh look, we are in the Necro forums; you guys already KNOW this is affecting the game.

When raids come in … wow. Bottomline … if you ever pushed meta on someone, you’re part of the problem.

Finally having some time to go over this video. It’s a mess, a giant mess… Not only is this guy pulling math out of his kitten, hes also being a giant kittenbag. Hell, hes being worst then the elitists that he appears to dislike so much.

This wouldn’t be the first time he did this though, let’s not go back to his last video before he left the game, something about necros doing better damage then warriors as a DS build. Facepalms

What I find most amusing is I actually once respected this fellow necro, but I cannot respect someone who is clearly dead set on making this stupid point that is clearly proven wrong a thousand times. Our community needs accurate information not this kitten.

I literally could rage for hours about the amount of false information that’s thrown around but I’ll end it here. As I said earlier in my previous post the only thing he had right in that video was the whole Ice Bow rant, but… News flash, we knew that for a long time.

I just did a reaper solo which should be better than base necro. It took 8 mins. I didnt have ideal food and consumables but thats not going to save 4.5 mins and beat the warriors current best time.

Admittedly theres also a lot to improve and i could have used a more offensive build. But between bloom trolling and bad rng i gave up using soul reaping and used blood magic instead.

spoj.9672:

I just did a reaper solo which should be better than base necro. It took 8 mins. I didnt have ideal food and consumables but thats not going to save 4.5 mins and beat the warriors current best time.

Admittedly theres also a lot to improve and i could have used a more offensive build. But between bloom trolling and bad rng i gave up using soul reaping and used blood magic instead.

Regardless, good job.

Tbh I really don’t care that he may be right, being obnoxiously arrogant puts me off the vid and his intended message.
I used to like some of his older work, but this just seemed like a “Hey I know better than all u’s kittens out there” and it’s just not cool in my book.

The PvE in this game is so laughably bad I honestly can’t believe people are trying to get into a kitten measuring contest over it. Has DnT ever released their ‘theoretical max DPS’ spreadsheet to the public so players can plainly see the class rankings once you factor out all the commonalities like the assumption everyone has a frost bow, 25 might, 100% fury uptime, etc?

I did one for Rangers eons ago so I’m quite confident if I could do it, someone else has too.

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Also in the first fight i was at only 8K because i had weakness on, and i knew most people would not spot this… and like i said, and you’ve saw… Timewarp dropped on me out of the blue… it was one of my first test runs, i didn’t get the timing of my Lich Form right.
These two aspects combined influences the outcome by miles… from 8K to 12K… very big difference…
I didn’t even think i will use the footage… but then i thought… uuuu… yesssss i know what this is for… Why else would i post footage which would discredit me… when i have so much better footage already ready.

“Pretty much what everyone expected… right ?” screen goes black… and you hear my voice in the darkness

Without Icebow in party and not debuffed i go to 12K… over 44 seconds.
With Icebow in party i go to 14.7k… over 27 seconds…

Because i spent a higher % of the fight under Timewarp while in Lich Form, which is like the definition of bursting.
So yeah… the “first side-effect” of Icebow, it makes your DPS even higher then you already think it is"… mark my words carefully…

PS: Didn’t knew my video got posted here as well, going to read through your comments and answer some of you… right after i eat something since i just woke up.

All i have to say for now… is that the original video was 37 minutes long, and i wanted to say a lot more stuff… so i had a part of it removed but i will add everything together in part II.
I know there are some parts here… that don’t fully make sense… but it does further help me because it fuels the controversy, which attracts attention… all preparation for part II, which will be at least 2 times more brutal.

You guys will one day thank me for this…

Atherakhia.4086:

The PvE in this game is so laughably bad I honestly can’t believe people are trying to get into a kitten measuring contest over it. Has DnT ever released their ‘theoretical max DPS’ spreadsheet to the public so players can plainly see the class rankings once you factor out all the commonalities like the assumption everyone has a frost bow, 25 might, 100% fury uptime, etc?

They did once it is outdated though:
http://www.dtguilds.com/forum/m/6563292/viewthread/13987449-dps-estimates-for-each-professions-in-30s-battles

Nemesis.8593:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Also in the first fight i was at only 8K because i had weakness on, and i knew most people would not spot this… and like i said, and you’ve saw… Timewarp dropped on me out of the blue… it was one of my first test runs, i didn’t get the timing of my Lich Form right.
These two aspects combined influences the outcome by miles… from 8K to 12K… very big difference…
I didn’t even think i will use the footage… but then i thought… uuuu… yesssss i know what this is for… Why else would i post footage which would discredit me… when i have so much better footage already ready.

“Pretty much what everyone expected… right ?” screen goes black… and you hear my voice in the darkness

Without Icebow in party and not debuffed i go to 12K… over 44 seconds.
With Icebow in party i go to 14.7k… over 27 seconds…

Because i spent a higher % of the fight under Timewarp while in Lich Form, which is like the definition of bursting.
So yeah… the “first side-effect” of Icebow, it makes your DPS even higher then you already think it is"… mark my words carefully…

PS: Didn’t knew my video got posted here as well, going to read through your comments and answer some of you… right after i eat something since i just woke up.

All i have to say for now… is that the original video was 37 minutes long, and i wanted to say a lot more stuff… so i had a part of it removed but i will add everything together in part II.
I know there are some parts here… that don’t fully make sense… but it does further help me because it fuels the controversy, which attracts attention… all preparation for part II, which will be at least 2 times more brutal.

You guys will one day thank me for this…

One thing though: Using Lich form makes this non-repeatable in the given timeframe and thus , by your own definition “burst”, not “sustained DPS”. Question is, was the Warriors ~11k repeatable? I’d assume so. Although if you take around 2 minutes to the next boss this becomes pretty much irellevant. Looking forward to part 2!

Shiki.7148:

Nemesis.8593:

Thaddeus.4891:

Ok no I made a mistake. He’s doing the 14.7k without using the icebow himself. He’s doing it while the team is using icebow.

The point here would be that with a shorter fight (because of icebow), he spend more time as a percentage of the fight either in lich form or DS where he does more damage. In longer fight (without icebow) he spend almost the same amount of time in lich form and DS, but since the first last longer he need to auto-attack for more time dropping his overall dps.

Also in the first fight i was at only 8K because i had weakness on, and i knew most people would not spot this… and like i said, and you’ve saw… Timewarp dropped on me out of the blue… it was one of my first test runs, i didn’t get the timing of my Lich Form right.
These two aspects combined influences the outcome by miles… from 8K to 12K… very big difference…
I didn’t even think i will use the footage… but then i thought… uuuu… yesssss i know what this is for… Why else would i post footage which would discredit me… when i have so much better footage already ready.

“Pretty much what everyone expected… right ?” screen goes black… and you hear my voice in the darkness

Without Icebow in party and not debuffed i go to 12K… over 44 seconds.
With Icebow in party i go to 14.7k… over 27 seconds…

Because i spent a higher % of the fight under Timewarp while in Lich Form, which is like the definition of bursting.
So yeah… the “first side-effect” of Icebow, it makes your DPS even higher then you already think it is"… mark my words carefully…

PS: Didn’t knew my video got posted here as well, going to read through your comments and answer some of you… right after i eat something since i just woke up.

All i have to say for now… is that the original video was 37 minutes long, and i wanted to say a lot more stuff… so i had a part of it removed but i will add everything together in part II.
I know there are some parts here… that don’t fully make sense… but it does further help me because it fuels the controversy, which attracts attention… all preparation for part II, which will be at least 2 times more brutal.

You guys will one day thank me for this…

One thing though: Using Lich form makes this non-repeatable in the given timeframe and thus , by your own definition “burst”, not “sustained DPS”. Question is, was the Warriors ~11k repeatable? I’d assume so. Although if you take around 2 minutes to the next boss this becomes pretty much irellevant. Looking forward to part 2!

Eeeexactly… it’s burst… NOT DPS… yessss…
Will probably take me at least a week for part II, but it is coming… mark my words… and it will be soooo much more brutal

https://youtu.be/AmkVfz9pvS8

Faster than warrior! /s

I know i can probably save at least 2 mins with a revised build and proper rotation. But definitely not 4 minutes to get close to a warriors time.

spoj.9672:

https://youtu.be/AmkVfz9pvS8

Faster than warrior! /s

I know i can probably save at least 2 mins with a revised build and proper rotation. But definitely not 4 minutes to get close to a warriors time.

You completely missed the point though. This is a solo fight you are talking about. Nemesis’ vid was about groups, and he was fighting from range. Due to it being in a group, the lack of active defenses on Necro doesn’t matter that much, meaning way higher DPS uptime since you don’t have to “waste time” dodging / healing where a warrior just pops a block or invuln and keeps spamming damage and lifestealing. Group setting =/= Solo Setting.

But come HoT this will all be moot anyway, because below 50% enemy hp timewarped critting gravediggers are completely insane X)

Shiki.7148:

spoj.9672:

https://youtu.be/AmkVfz9pvS8

Faster than warrior! /s

I know i can probably save at least 2 mins with a revised build and proper rotation. But definitely not 4 minutes to get close to a warriors time.

You completely missed the point though. This is a solo fight you are talking about. Nemesis’ vid was about groups, and he was fighting from range. Due to it being in a group, the lack of active defenses on Necro doesn’t matter that much, meaning way higher DPS uptime since you don’t have to “waste time” dodging / healing where a warrior just pops a block or invuln and keeps spamming damage and lifestealing. Group setting =/= Solo Setting.

But come HoT this will all be moot anyway, because below 50% enemy hp timewarped critting gravediggers are completely insane X)

yeah, and nemisis missed (or ignored completly in full consciousness!) the point that he got fully buffed by everyone else in that group setting (especially by that warrior) and compared his dps to that of a phalax warrior…a support setting!
i don’t even know why he choose a ps-warr? still the thought from pugs 2 years ago that warrior are the best dps class or what?

if you want to compare fully buffed dps classes (i guess that was his point), then he should have compared his dps to that of a fully buffed dps warr (so with 2 warrs in the group, one running ps with banners, so the other one can go full dps).

since i don’t have the numbers, i don’t know wich class does more dps in that time. could be still necro since lich form does a good dmg chunk…and since its about bursting stuff down in group settings atm, maybe necro does more dps here in that short time window…i don’t know.

on the other hand, he will still not outdps a ele since lavafont uptime, fireball spam and meteors will raise eles dps to top notch.
while that, ele brings much utilitie to the group.

we all know that necro does good dmg and we all know he is not in the meta because its a selfish class. neverless you can bring a necro without problems into a group if you are fine with it. just get one ele out or so, dmg will drop down but if someone wants to play a necro, why not.

(i am ignoring here that he completly skewed with numbers and had inkonsistent timer starts because “he would start the kill timer when prestacking might”
…as many said, you either start the timer at the start of a dungeon / fractal or when the boss gets his first hit. thats the baseline what all people do when doing videos and just because one person said its wrong, it is still not…the rest agrees already that it is right.)

nemesis did only one thing: creating drama to get more (anti-meta)ppl into his youtube channel, so he gets more views.
only problem of what he did: he messed up with the completly wrong people and insulted them.
yeah, there are some daily “toxic elitist scrubs” out there in the lfg-tool, who have probably no idea what the meta is about or how it comes to that and mess up their fights in dungeons and insult other people while playing bad.

but those people are not the people shown in the footage of his video and the rest who is posting in forums or maintaining stuff like gw2dungeons, publishing meta guides and doing numbers for sience. also not the people who solo stuff and show their skill with good times in those solos.

if nemesis wants to save his face, he should get out a apology to all these people he insulted…
…sure, you can create drama to get more people onto you yt-channel, but with insulting (completly wrong and more famous people so he gets more attention)? thats just not the right way.

skarpak.8594:

Shiki.7148:

spoj.9672:

https://youtu.be/AmkVfz9pvS8

Faster than warrior! /s

I know i can probably save at least 2 mins with a revised build and proper rotation. But definitely not 4 minutes to get close to a warriors time.

You completely missed the point though. This is a solo fight you are talking about. Nemesis’ vid was about groups, and he was fighting from range. Due to it being in a group, the lack of active defenses on Necro doesn’t matter that much, meaning way higher DPS uptime since you don’t have to “waste time” dodging / healing where a warrior just pops a block or invuln and keeps spamming damage and lifestealing. Group setting =/= Solo Setting.

But come HoT this will all be moot anyway, because below 50% enemy hp timewarped critting gravediggers are completely insane X)

yeah, and nemisis missed (or ignored completly in full consciousness!) the point that he got fully buffed by everyone else in that group setting (especially by that warrior) and compared his dps to that of a phalax warrior…a support setting!
i don’t even know why he choose a ps-warr? still the thought from pugs 2 years ago that warrior are the best dps class or what?

if you want to compare fully buffed dps classes (i guess that was his point), then he should have compared his dps to that of a fully buffed dps warr (so with 2 warrs in the group, one running ps with banners, so the other one can go full dps).

since i don’t have the numbers, i don’t know wich class does more dps in that time. could be still necro since lich form does a good dmg chunk…and since its about bursting stuff down in group settings atm, maybe necro does more dps here in that short time window…i don’t know.

on the other hand, he will still not outdps a ele since lavafont uptime, fireball spam and meteors will raise eles dps to top notch.
while that, ele brings much utilitie to the group.

we all know that necro does good dmg and we all know he is not in the meta because its a selfish class. neverless you can bring a necro without problems into a group if you are fine with it. just get one ele out or so, dmg will drop down but if someone wants to play a necro, why not.

(i am ignoring here that he completly skewed with numbers and had inkonsistent timer starts because “he would start the kill timer when prestacking might”
…as many said, you either start the timer at the start of a dungeon / fractal or when the boss gets his first hit. thats the baseline what all people do when doing videos and just because one person said its wrong, it is still not…the rest agrees already that it is right.)

nemesis did only one thing: creating drama to get more (anti-meta)ppl into his youtube channel, so he gets more views.
only problem of what he did: he messed up with the completly wrong people and insulted them.
yeah, there are some daily “toxic elitist scrubs” out there in the lfg-tool, who have probably no idea what the meta is about or how it comes to that and mess up their fights in dungeons and insult other people while playing bad.

but those people are not the people shown in the footage of his video and the rest who is posting in forums or maintaining stuff like gw2dungeons, publishing meta guides and doing numbers for sience. also not the people who solo stuff and show their skill with good times in those solos.

if nemesis wants to save his face, he should get out a apology to all these people he insulted…
…sure, you can create drama to get more people onto you yt-channel, but with insulting (completly wrong and more famous people so he gets more attention)? thats just not the right way.

I can sustain my own 25 stacks of might, thank you very much… especially after the trait system change… and since i don’t have to buff because i can’t, except for blood is power that i do on the fly…

Yes… i am pretty much ready to go without “pre-preparation”, why should i add more time to myself, when… that’s the entire point… my body is ready !… NOW !

I compared to the warrior since it’s not only the most played class, but also as you will see in the comments both on official forums and on reddit… the majority of people believe that necromancer not only doesn’t bring ANY buffs unlike a warrior, but also has LOWER DPS then a warrior who also brings buffs.

As for the rest of the classes… they are “Icebow carriers”, so good luck finding an elementalist that will lend you his footage, without Icebow… and even then it would have been regarded as “fake” & “biased” because hey… “elementalist should have used the Icebow”.

As for the rest of what you said… wait for part II.

I like this thread.

Good to see preconceptions being challenged.

skarpak.8594:

yeah, and nemisis missed (or ignored completly in full consciousness!) the point that he got fully buffed by everyone else in that group setting (especially by that warrior) and compared his dps to that of a phalax warrior…a support setting!

I think he could have been clearer. But I think his approach was not to say necromancer is better than warrior. Because I think most of us agree it still isn’t.
I think he’s merely trying to prove (whether that succeeds or not) that even though a necromancer doesn’t bring buffs, it brings dps that is at the very least not WORSE than a support clas.
Silly as it might be, that this is about not being worse dps than a buff bot (and that is extremely silly balance wise); there are many who claim we are both worse dps and worse teamplayers than just about any class setup.

But if we can bring other good stuff; which might require some changing to the vulnerability of bosses to certain debuffs, like weakness and chill; and still do dps that at least challanges another support class like Phalanx Warrior. Then we might have an entry into at the very least being taken seriously.

That said. A 90% lich uptime is not DPS. It’s burst. It’s quite literally what he stated at the start of his video.
And even though you can probably have high lich uptime in every current content fight. I think it’s much better to focus on 3+ minute fights to get a more fair picture with the upcoming raids and all.

Nyth.3492:

skarpak.8594:

yeah, and nemisis missed (or ignored completly in full consciousness!) the point that he got fully buffed by everyone else in that group setting (especially by that warrior) and compared his dps to that of a phalax warrior…a support setting!

I think he could have been clearer. But I think his approach was not to say necromancer is better than warrior. Because I think most of us agree it still isn’t.
I think he’s merely trying to prove (whether that succeeds or not) that even though a necromancer doesn’t bring buffs, it brings competetive dps.
Yes the warrior is still extremely valuable since it provides you all the might and stuff while doing solid dps.

But if we can bring other good stuff; which might require some changing to the vulnerability of bosses to certain debuffs, like weakness and chill; and still do dps that at least challanges another support class like Phalanx Warrior. Then we might have an entry into at the very least being taken seriously.

That said. A 90% lich uptime is not DPS. It’s burst. It’s quite literally what he stated at the start of his video.
And even though you can probably have high lich uptime in every current content fight. I think it’s much better to focus on 3+ minute fights to get a more fair picture with the upcoming raids and all.

True… it’s much more realistic to focus on 3+ minute long fights…
Yesssssss… sss…

Also true, and i have said quite a few times already, i never said necromancer should replace a warrior in a party… ever…

What i am saying is that… contrary to popular believe necromancer doesn’t have LOWER DPS then a warrior which also provides buffs… in fact… those warrior buffs are for me, the necromancer, the higher DPSer… If it wasn’t for the Icebow exploit of course…

Nemesis.8593:

What i am saying is that… contrary to popular believe necromancer doesn’t have LOWER DPS then a warrior which also provides buffs… in fact… those warrior buffs are for me, the necromancer, the higher DPSer… If it wasn’t for the Icebow exploit of course…

Since the necro can’t fill the buffing slot a PS war does, then you are vying for the 2-3 dps slots in a party. You would then need to compare your damage against that of a warrior likewise traited for optimal dps.

And… hitbox compression is disallowed in records, not used in any of the guild runs I do(and of course DnT is just filthy exploiters who would definitely use this tactic if it was possible /s) and I’ve never seen a pug use it yet. Where exactly is this exploit being used that you consider it the only thing holding necros back from being generally accepted as meta? Since you know, you’d have to compare the non-icebow dps of every other class to necros before deciding whether or not it was the best choice for the available dps slots.

SlyDevil.3952:

Where exactly is this exploit being used that you consider it the only thing holding necros back from being generally accepted as meta? Since you know, you’d have to compare the non-icebow dps of every other class to necros before deciding whether or not it was the best choice for the available dps slots.

Actually, the only thing that has put us in this stupid discriminating situation, is not the lack of offensive buffs, or the not so good dps, nor the linecasting icebow.

It’s the lack of a damage recount tool.

In all my years in wow i never saw such discrimination against a class. Why? because you had Recount to separate the real damage dealers vs the rest. I could bring a warlock and outdamage all the damage dealers because my build and gear were optimised for each fight, even though warlocks were not the top dps class at the time. But even the trashier classes never received any hate for being lower in the dps chain. As long as they did decent damage, people were ok with anyone.

This game’s pve is laughable and light years behind wow in difficulty. Dungeons are completed in under 10 minutes. Any class can be brought to any dungeon and do fine.

But people think that because class x is marginally better, then class Y is trash while, in real life, class y probably deals more damage.

I’ve seen meta groups in high level fractals, ranging all the bosses. Warriors using their rifles, guardians and their scepters against small hitbox bosses, you name it.

I am pretty sure an axe necro or a hybrid necro does more damage in the same situation. But these metazerk wannabes cannot be bothered to find out. A damage recount tool would prove that their metazerk build is being used in a very unproductive way, and that the trash necro can outdamage them because he is actually built for what he is doing.

A recount tool would also discredit anyone doing some poor theorycrafting, of course. The only downside would be the lack of a precise way to measure the contribution to party dps via buffs.

Aenesthesia.1697:

SlyDevil.3952:

Where exactly is this exploit being used that you consider it the only thing holding necros back from being generally accepted as meta? Since you know, you’d have to compare the non-icebow dps of every other class to necros before deciding whether or not it was the best choice for the available dps slots.

Actually, the only thing that has put us in this stupid discriminating situation, is not the lack of offensive buffs, or the not so good dps, nor the linecasting icebow.

It’s the lack of a damage recount tool.

In all my years in wow i never saw such discrimination against a class. Why? because you had Recount to separate the real damage dealers vs the rest.

That kind of tool would be death for any in class in this game that wasn’t #1 because lacking trinity. The actual problem is WoW-type players who think that’s how performance is measured.